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(New Castle News)   Pennsylvania may soon charge cyclists, snowmobilers, horse riders for trail use in their state. Surprisingly, some people are not happy with this   (ncnewsonline.com) divider line 117
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4312 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Aug 2014 at 2:40 PM (8 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-24 01:54:57 PM  
"How is this going to be enforced? Toll booths at trailheads?" he asked.

Uh, a parking sticker? It's not unheard of.
 
2014-08-24 02:06:32 PM  
FTFA: Snowmobilers, equestrians and mountain bikers may soon be forced to buy a hunting license or pony up $30 to ride on state game lands, as part of a controversial plan to raise money to offset the costs of trail upkeep.

But if you want to pump an unknown cocktail of fracking fluid into the ground there we won't tax you.
 
2014-08-24 02:18:14 PM  

Lsherm: "How is this going to be enforced? Toll booths at trailheads?" he asked.

Uh, a parking sticker? It's not unheard of.


Could just them like hunting or fishing licenses
 
2014-08-24 02:23:42 PM  

Tellingthem: Lsherm: "How is this going to be enforced? Toll booths at trailheads?" he asked.

Uh, a parking sticker? It's not unheard of.

Could just make them like hunting or fishing licenses


ugh FTFM
 
2014-08-24 02:43:33 PM  
What about Walkers? This affects me.
 
2014-08-24 02:45:30 PM  
You know what happens when you start charging people for access to formerly "free" land? They start throwing all their trash around on it, and shiatting on the side of the trail, and stuff like that. Their reasoning being that if they're paying for it, then somebody should be doing something for them.

Hey, I didn't invent assholes. I've just seen them in action.
 
2014-08-24 02:47:39 PM  
This reminds me of when we had Mitt as gov in MA.  He cut taxes (on the wealthy) and jacked up fees for everything.
 
2014-08-24 02:48:39 PM  

Doctor Funkenstein: FTFA: Snowmobilers, equestrians and mountain bikers may soon be forced to buy a hunting license or pony up $30 to ride on state game lands, as part of a controversial plan to raise money to offset the costs of trail upkeep.

But if you want to pump an unknown cocktail of fracking fluid into the ground there we won't tax you.


We don't perform upkeep on those sites.
 
2014-08-24 02:57:44 PM  
I can still pogostick while playing a tuba on a rocky uphill trail free of charge right?  Really though, this is the one of the very few times that pedestrians or hikers get to be uppity.  As if "We do no damage. Ghosts are we."
 
2014-08-24 03:00:13 PM  
Hmmm, you're taxed enough already, so I guess you'll have to pay for things piecemeal. I mean, some people don't use those trails, why should they have to pay for them? Sounds like some people like to suck at the government teat when it's their convenience involved.

Suck it up, cupcake.
 
2014-08-24 03:02:30 PM  

Billy Bathsalt: This reminds me of when we had Mitt as gov in MA.  He cut taxes (on the wealthy) and jacked up fees for everything.


If I want to hike in a nearby state forest I have to pay a parking fee thanks to Mitt. The money collected does not specifically go to support public labd, it goes to a general fund to support those tax cuts for the wealthy.

Pisses me off.
 
2014-08-24 03:02:46 PM  
Shoot, thirty or so years ago when I cycled from time to time, I had permit stickers all over my bike, and my truck.

It's nothing new.  You gotta pay for the privilege.

/and the rescue unit, I guess
 
2014-08-24 03:05:47 PM  
Somebody should hit these guys with a 2x4.  In 2007, when the Great Allegheny Passage opened the remaining two tunnels between Pittsburgh and Washington, DC, a friend and I rode it end-to-end and saw no one doing the same.

We re-rode the trail last June on a week during which there was rain every day.  One afternoon at Meyersdale, i counted 250 people in about two hours at lunch time who were doing the entire trail.  Seven were going coast-to-coast. One retired couple on a tandem had already ridden from San Diego to North Carolina.  They were on their third chain.
 
2014-08-24 03:06:18 PM  
Charging people to use stuff? Ridiculous!
 
2014-08-24 03:09:16 PM  
The government will nickel and dime us to death. How much of our money is enough for the government? All of it.
 
2014-08-24 03:11:15 PM  
The only universal way to raise money for the coffers is to charge politicians every time they lie.  Maybe like 5 cents or so, would totally fill the moneybags for the masses.
 
2014-08-24 03:11:49 PM  
I have no problem with this, the trails need to be maintained, why shouldn't those who use them pay for it? It's no different than charging a registration fee for people to drive their car on the roads.
 
2014-08-24 03:13:03 PM  
"They can use their money that they take for schools and use if for my trail use."


...I'm just posting this to say how ridiculous this is.  If they want to tax/fund via this precedent then do it that way across the board.
 
2014-08-24 03:13:42 PM  
Perfect.     And then when they do get charged a fee........  they are going to be going to every DCNR meeting wanting changes, perks, special new trails.         And they will want to throw the ATV's out.
 
2014-08-24 03:14:34 PM  
...and I didn't clarify, I don't have kids in schools (but I have no problem paying taxes for schools because educated people help us all)
 
2014-08-24 03:15:11 PM  
Mountain bikers in my town get access to great trails on private property for $50 a year.  I get it for nothing, because the organization comps me for my contributions.  You get a laminated pass for your bike with our name on it.  There is no enforcement and no means of keeping riders off the property, so there is plenty of poaching going on, but the fees still pay for the trails.  I have multiple bikes, so a paid sticker for each one would not be fair since I can only ride one at a time.

The horse people have all the money and the most well developed sense of entitlement in the country.  They are used to sucking at the government teat, but not for food stamps, they go for millions in tax cuts and benefits.  They know how to game the system.  Even though they do the most damage, I think they will make it go away.   Who is going to enforce this?  How many people will be needed to run this program, and what is the cost/benefit ratio?

The devil is in the details.
 
2014-08-24 03:17:47 PM  
I clean up after my dog on those trails. Apparently the horsey people aren't required to.

/ f*ck them and the horse they rode in on
 
2014-08-24 03:18:31 PM  

ExJerseyGirl: Billy Bathsalt: This reminds me of when we had Mitt as gov in MA.  He cut taxes (on the wealthy) and jacked up fees for everything.

If I want to hike in a nearby state forest I have to pay a parking fee thanks to Mitt. The money collected does not specifically go to support public labd, it goes to a general fund to support those tax cuts for the wealthy.

Pisses me off.


How are the wealthy going to afford landing fees and high priced poon? That champaign is not going to buy itself.
 
2014-08-24 03:18:40 PM  

toadist: Perfect.     And then when they do get charged a fee........  they are going to be going to every DCNR meeting wanting changes, perks, special new trails.         And they will want to throw the ATV's out.


Your ATVs are how different from any other vehicle? Keep them the fark off of walking trails.

/and set them all on fire, to be sure.
 
2014-08-24 03:19:55 PM  

Omnivorous: Somebody should hit these guys with a 2x4.  In 2007, when the Great Allegheny Passage opened the remaining two tunnels between Pittsburgh and Washington, DC, a friend and I rode it end-to-end and saw no one doing the same.

We re-rode the trail last June on a week during which there was rain every day.  One afternoon at Meyersdale, i counted 250 people in about two hours at lunch time who were doing the entire trail.  Seven were going coast-to-coast. One retired couple on a tandem had already ridden from San Diego to North Carolina.  They were on their third chain.


I don't undrstand your point.

The tax people should be beaten beacuse a trail is more popular than seven years ago? Not trying to be dense, but i just don't follow.
 
2014-08-24 03:24:34 PM  

cryinoutloud: You know what happens when you start charging people for access to formerly "free" land? They start throwing all their trash around on it, and shiatting on the side of the trail, and stuff like that. Their reasoning being that if they're paying for it, then somebody should be doing something for them.

Hey, I didn't invent assholes. I've just seen them in action.


Really? That hasn't been my experience at all.
 
2014-08-24 03:28:32 PM  
The $30 fee seems high to me and discourages people from doing the right thing.  I would make it a lower fee and then put a ridiculous fine on anyone caught not having paid the fee, then people pay the fee rather than the fine.  It works like that with boating, fishing and hunting licenses so why not this?
 
2014-08-24 03:28:42 PM  
> The tax people should be beaten beacuse a trail is more popular than seven years ago? Not trying to be dense,
> but i just don't follow.

Trail creates commerce.  Trail creates wealth.  Trail is for the common good.  Why not put a higher price on it and kill the public benefit?

Or better yet, do what Indiana does: sell the infrastructure to an Australian company instead of making your public roads a freeway.
 
2014-08-24 03:34:59 PM  

Tellingthem: Tellingthem: Lsherm: "How is this going to be enforced? Toll booths at trailheads?" he asked.

Uh, a parking sticker? It's not unheard of.

Could just make them like hunting or fishing licenses

ugh FTFM


That's what we have in WI with our bike trail system.  $20/yr.  Pay stations anywhere the trails go from a city to being maintained by the state.  Keep the carbon copy receipt on you out until your pass arrives in a week or two.  Carry it with you in your bag or wallet.  Sometimes there will be LEOs at random on the trail (usually a nice weekend) checking that people have a pass.  Don't have a pass, you get a ticket.

It ain't hard, PA.  You like nice things?  You pay for them.
 
2014-08-24 03:38:33 PM  
They elected Corbett, he slashed the budget, and this is the consequence. Good job, Pennsylvanians! These are the fees you asked for. Enjoy them.
 
2014-08-24 03:38:37 PM  
Next the government will charge people to enter National Parks.  The nerve of charging people to see "this great land of ours."
 
2014-08-24 03:38:54 PM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Tellingthem: Tellingthem: Lsherm: "How is this going to be enforced? Toll booths at trailheads?" he asked.

Uh, a parking sticker? It's not unheard of.

Could just make them like hunting or fishing licenses

ugh FTFM

That's what we have in WI with our bike trail system.  $20/yr.  Pay stations anywhere the trails go from a city to being maintained by the state.  Keep the carbon copy receipt on you out until your pass arrives in a week or two.  Carry it with you in your bag or wallet.  Sometimes there will be LEOs at random on the trail (usually a nice weekend) checking that people have a pass.  Don't have a pass, you get a ticket.

It ain't hard, PA.  You like nice things?  You pay for them.


We pay for plenty of things, unless you're a fossil fuel industry.
 
2014-08-24 03:39:01 PM  
Nothing new here in the Pacific NW. $30 annual pass for State Parks, plus additional fees if you use Sno Parks in the winter. Trail maintenance isn't free.
 
2014-08-24 03:39:26 PM  
Not commenting on the details of this particular example, but I don't have a problem with the idea. Most recreational areas are starved for money for maintenance. Putting the burden on the user makes perfect sense.
 
2014-08-24 03:39:58 PM  

Omnivorous: Somebody should hit these guys with a 2x4.  In 2007, when the Great Allegheny Passage opened the remaining two tunnels between Pittsburgh and Washington, DC, a friend and I rode it end-to-end and saw no one doing the same.

We re-rode the trail last June on a week during which there was rain every day.  One afternoon at Meyersdale, i counted 250 people in about two hours at lunch time who were doing the entire trail.  Seven were going coast-to-coast. One retired couple on a tandem had already ridden from San Diego to North Carolina.  They were on their third chain.


Not familiar with that trail, but it sounds like you just made the state's case. Is that what you meant to do? Your "these guys" referent is a little unclear.
 
2014-08-24 03:41:51 PM  
How would it be enforced? Er, the same way hunting and fishing licenses are enforced?
 
2014-08-24 03:43:29 PM  
They came for the 4wd enthusiasts and I did nothing....Next step will be banning the rest. People biatched about the OffRoaders tearing things up but in reality they are no worse than the rest.
 
2014-08-24 03:45:55 PM  

Omnivorous: > The tax people should be beaten beacuse a trail is more popular than seven years ago? Not trying to be dense,
> but i just don't follow.

Trail creates commerce.  Trail creates wealth.  Trail is for the common good.  Why not put a higher price on it and kill the public benefit?

Or better yet, do what Indiana does: sell the infrastructure to an Australian company instead of making your public roads a freeway.


I agree.  The cost of dissuading one person from an active lifestyle could cost the state several hundred times as much as they gain from that user fee.  If a heart attack cost $10,000 to treat, you don't need many flabby poor people to ruin the economics of it.
User fees affect behavior and they should aim to do so in a beneficial way.
 
2014-08-24 03:46:39 PM  

cryinoutloud: You know what happens when you start charging people for access to formerly "free" land? They start throwing all their trash around on it, and shiatting on the side of the trail, and stuff like that. Their reasoning being that if they're paying for it, then somebody should be doing something for them.

Hey, I didn't invent assholes. I've just seen them in action.


That makes sense: "They want money to upkeep the trails at their current condition, so we'll just fark things up more! No way in hell could that result in an increase in upkeep fees!"
 
2014-08-24 03:49:41 PM  
Notice how this discussion is not held on TFD.
 
2014-08-24 03:50:22 PM  
And of course enforcement will require hiring of more personnel for their little Gestapo that will hassle everyone for their license/stamp or whatever they want to call it. Just stay the fark home, people.
 
2014-08-24 03:50:37 PM  

rikkards: They came for the 4wd enthusiasts and I did nothing....Next step will be banning the rest. People biatched about the OffRoaders tearing things up but in reality they are no worse than the rest.


I'm going to assume that's sarcasm.
 
2014-08-24 03:50:47 PM  

Tellingthem: Lsherm: "How is this going to be enforced? Toll booths at trailheads?" he asked.

Uh, a parking sticker? It's not unheard of.

Could just them like hunting or fishing licenses


Stickers are better as it is a quick and easy to enforce measure as most everyone who rides anything bring their horses/bikes/ATVs/Etc. to the parks using something to haul them.
 
2014-08-24 03:52:24 PM  

bojon: Notice how this discussion is not held on TFD.


I hadn't noticed.
 
2014-08-24 03:52:56 PM  

TemperedEdge: They elected Corbett, he slashed the budget, and this is the consequence. Good job, Pennsylvanians! These are the fees you asked for. Enjoy them.


To be fair, at least it looks like they regret it, and will be tossing the guy out soon.
 
2014-08-24 03:53:39 PM  

Doctor Funkenstein: FTFA: Snowmobilers, equestrians and mountain bikers may soon be forced to buy a hunting license or pony up $30 to ride on state game lands, as part of a controversial plan to raise money to offset the costs of trail upkeep.

But if you want to pump an unknown cocktail of fracking fluid into the ground there we won't tax you.


Is it your belief fracking companies pay no taxes or land use fees?

If so it explains a lot of the ignorance fr the anti fracking crowd.
 
2014-08-24 03:54:31 PM  

cryinoutloud: You know what happens when you start charging people for access to formerly "free" land? They start throwing all their trash around on it, and shiatting on the side of the trail, and stuff like that. Their reasoning being that if they're paying for it, then somebody should be doing something for them.

Hey, I didn't invent assholes. I've just seen them in action.


Perhaps the feds should give back control to the states then.
 
2014-08-24 03:56:03 PM  

Antilope: The government will nickel and dime us to death. How much of our money is enough for the government? All of it.


If you combine all levels of government they spend just under 40% of GDP. And when asked, they think it isn't enough.
 
2014-08-24 03:56:19 PM  

cryinoutloud: You know what happens when you start charging people for access to formerly "free" land? They start throwing all their trash around on it, and shiatting on the side of the trail, and stuff like that. Their reasoning being that if they're paying for it, then somebody should be doing something for them.

Hey, I didn't invent assholes. I've just seen them in action.


That's just painful to even read.

How did the trails get there in the first place? Who maintains and pays for them? Who polices them so you have a trouble free period of enjoyment there?

And why did you quote the word free? There has been a cost associated for the day or night use of state or federal lands. The only exception to that I am aware of is land designated BLM.

This added cost is for the additional wear and tear not associated to hikers.
 
2014-08-24 03:56:43 PM  
A commission study concluded that low-impact users, such as hikers and birdwatchers, typically don't cause the same types of damage - and associated repair costs.

I've never ridden a bike or snowmobile while staring at the trees through binoculars, but I want to try.
 
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