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(Independent)   British youth being "lured" by psychotic cult that ends only in death. For once, this is not about the English national football side   (independent.co.uk) divider line 118
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3128 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Aug 2014 at 12:36 AM (5 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-23 09:03:41 PM
A siren song to angry young men, come war with us and rule the world.


/a song as old as humanity itself
 
2014-08-23 09:13:32 PM
Pots and kettles?
 
2014-08-23 09:22:17 PM

wildcardjack: Pots and kettles?


Not really, it seems like it's an actual Muslim Imam who's leading an anti-radicalization movement.  It's the kind of thing we need more of - religious leaders who are willing to step up and call out the asshattery that certain elements of their own religion espouse.
 
2014-08-23 09:34:32 PM
No, the English football team inspires hope, then dismay, then shame
 
2014-08-23 09:49:34 PM
Does it involve being painted red before you're sacrificed?
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-08-23 10:22:55 PM
Anglican or Catholic?
 
2014-08-23 11:00:13 PM
There are mounting concerns over the flow of hundreds of fighters from Britain to Syria...

How does this hapen? Can you fly straight to Syria from England? Do you have to go through a third state to get there, like we go to Cuba? I hope they're trying to keep track of these nutjobs through their passports.
 
2014-08-24 12:42:07 AM
img.fark.net
 
2014-08-24 12:42:50 AM

ecmoRandomNumbers: There are mounting concerns over the flow of hundreds of fighters from Britain to Syria...

How does this hapen? Can you fly straight to Syria from England? Do you have to go through a third state to get there, like we go to Cuba? I hope they're trying to keep track of these nutjobs through their passports.


Turkey.
 
2014-08-24 12:43:50 AM

Ow! That was my feelings!: ecmoRandomNumbers: There are mounting concerns over the flow of hundreds of fighters from Britain to Syria...

How does this hapen? Can you fly straight to Syria from England? Do you have to go through a third state to get there, like we go to Cuba? I hope they're trying to keep track of these nutjobs through their passports.

Turkey.


Now with linkage, Link
 
2014-08-24 12:52:49 AM
Christianity?
 
2014-08-24 12:55:58 AM
What a shock, the psychotic death cult won't let you leave once it has you.
 
2014-08-24 12:57:43 AM
The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.
 
2014-08-24 01:02:55 AM

Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.


Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.
 
2014-08-24 01:05:47 AM

SmackLT: No, the English football team inspires hope, then dismay, then shame


I'm really starting to get into EPL.  My background as a Jets fan seems to have prepared me well.
 
2014-08-24 01:07:19 AM
Catholicism?

/this being Britain and all
 
2014-08-24 01:16:52 AM

LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.


Sure, like having police patrol a neighborhood creates gangs?
As always, Economic Opportunity, combined with an Iron Fist is what it takes.
 
2014-08-24 01:23:40 AM

tinyarena: LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.

Sure, like having police patrol a neighborhood creates gangs?
As always, Economic Opportunity, combined with an Iron Fist is what it takes.


Not meddling in the affairs of every country in the region constantly for generations might help a little as well.
 
2014-08-24 01:25:54 AM

TuteTibiImperes: wildcardjack: Pots and kettles?

Not really, it seems like it's an actual Muslim Imam who's leading an anti-radicalization movement.  It's the kind of thing we need more of - religious leaders who are willing to step up and call out the asshattery that certain elements of their own religion espouse.


It happens much more frequently than you think. Islamic religious leaders in the West pretty much university decry radicalism and terrorism when such actions happen, and do it quite strongly. It's just their declarations usually get buried under tons of fear-mongering and posturing derp from others; well-spoken Muslims speaking out against radical Islam doesn't sell copies of newspapers or keep viewers glued to a TV screen.
 
2014-08-24 01:26:44 AM

tinyarena: LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.

Sure, like having police patrol a neighborhood creates gangs?
As always, Economic Opportunity, combined with an Iron Fist is what it takes.


No, like how 'police killing peoples' families because they were in the vicinity of a place gang members were maybe seen one time' might make people a bit pissed off at the police and sympathetic to the anti-police gangs.
 
2014-08-24 01:28:55 AM
What the hell could they be telling these guy to make them want to leave the UK to go fight in Syria? The women are hotter and easier and you can make more money? And some of these guy were born and raised in the UK? There's something here that I just don't get.
 
2014-08-24 01:30:32 AM
You know who ELSE was a member of ISIS?

img.fark.net
 
2014-08-24 01:37:24 AM

tinyarena: LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.

Sure, like having police patrol a neighborhood creates gangs?
As always, Economic Opportunity Power Man, combined with an Iron Fist is what it takes.

 
2014-08-24 01:38:01 AM
... but enough about Doctor Who.
 
2014-08-24 01:43:06 AM
I though the EIC had been disbanded?
 
2014-08-24 01:45:55 AM

Sgygus: A siren song to angry young men, come war with us and rule the world.



Lok'tar ogar!
 
2014-08-24 01:48:39 AM
I'm not disagreeing with any of you. I'm just saying, use perspective.
These IS are punks on the global the scale, and an embarrassment to the establishment Sunnis.
 
2014-08-24 01:59:33 AM
"Prevent is a tainted brand and a failed strategy; you can't keep on giving life to something which is fundamentally broken. It is disproportionate in that is focuses on Muslim extremism. Prevent is defunct now as far as I'm concerned. It has no credibility whatsoever."
Instead, we need to "reach young people, talk their language, understand their reality and connect with them on a human level, with compassion. We are not doing that. How is it possible for IS to connect with people, to completely destroy and annihilate who they are, but we can't connect with them?"


Because, Imam, ISIS has realized what you have not yet: That you cannot reach impoverished and disaffected youths by preaching at them, attempting to scare them, and threatening them with terrible things that "might" happen to them. If you genuinely want to connect with them, you have to give them instead an immediate message of hope and an immediate reason to want to stay where they are.

ISIS says "Come with us and we will give you a reason to live and to die." All you and your programs have been saying is "don't go with ISIS because they are bad people." You have not been telling them "Stay in Britain and WE will give you a reason to live and to die"; and more importantly, you have not been GIVING them a reason to live and to die. Young people, especially young men, need tangibles--money, food, jobs, security.

ISIS gives them that, at least initially. Then it tells them, these are the people who took away your reasons for living and dying. They are taking it away from your family and friends. If you help us kill them, you will get your revenge on them. And those young men now have a reason to die for their friends and to live for them. ISIS is just a gang, only with more firepower, and gangs use the same recruiting strategy. We will take care of you, as long as you take care of us. And usually, they do take care of them, even as they kill them.

So Imam, if you really want to "connect" with your young men and women and keep them from running off on some idealistic ISIS crusade, stop telling them what bad evil people ISIS is made of. Instead, don't tell them anything. Give them food, find them jobs, help their families with housing problems and racism. Give them reasons to live and to die in Britain; then they won't need to find reasons to live and to die in Syria.
 
2014-08-24 02:13:22 AM

Gyrfalcon: "Stay in Britain and WE will give you a reason to live and to die";


Wow. I can't figure out which is actually worse...to live in England and lose one's teeth before age 30 or to die in England and be buried next to some dowdy bird.
 
2014-08-24 02:16:36 AM

TuteTibiImperes: wildcardjack: Pots and kettles?

Not really, it seems like it's an actual Muslim Imam who's leading an anti-radicalization movement.  It's the kind of thing we need more of - religious leaders who are willing to step up and call out the asshattery that certain elements of their own religion espouse.


But that doesn't generate page clicks. When was the last time you saw Rev. Spong or John Crossan on MSNBC? The nuts at the Southern Bapist Convention are producers' FB friends.
 
2014-08-24 02:18:35 AM

TuteTibiImperes: It's the kind of thing we need more of - religious leaders who are willing to step up and call out the asshattery that certain elements of their own religion espouse.


It's the kind of thing we've had plenty of for many years but no one pays attention to. The media doesn't give a damn about it because religious leaders taking anti-radicalization stances doesn't fit the narrative, nor does it drive clicks. In the rare case we get a story about something like this it's presented as an exception rather than a rule, which is not true but sells better.

Individuals either agree with the guy saying "radical religion is bad", in which case they're not likely to be very vocal about it, or they will use it to say that he's an exception to the "Islam is a violent faith practiced by ignorant savages" type of narrative.

In short, everyone sees what they want to see and will say what they think is true, and will use this guy and people like him to fuel their  own narrative, and continue to ignore facts.
 
2014-08-24 02:20:58 AM

worlddan: Gyrfalcon: "Stay in Britain and WE will give you a reason to live and to die";

Wow. I can't figure out which is actually worse...to live in England and lose one's teeth before age 30 or to die in England and be buried next to some dowdy bird.


I wonder why in UK
To live and die in UK
 
2014-08-24 02:21:47 AM

Gyrfalcon: So Imam, if you really want to "connect" with your young men and women and keep them from running off on some idealistic ISIS crusade, stop telling them what bad evil people ISIS is made of. Instead, don't tell them anything. Give them food, find them jobs, help their families with housing problems and racism. Give them reasons to live and to die in Britain; then they won't need to find reasons to live and to die in Syria.


Did you read what he actually said or just skim the article? Because I would think he would agree with you.
 
2014-08-24 02:27:46 AM
I fully expect that we will soon find out the leader of ISIS is named "Kane", and soon after that our first Tiberium fields.
 
2014-08-24 02:30:18 AM

Gyrfalcon: "Prevent is a tainted brand and a failed strategy; you can't keep on giving life to something which is fundamentally broken. It is disproportionate in that is focuses on Muslim extremism. Prevent is defunct now as far as I'm concerned. It has no credibility whatsoever."
Instead, we need to "reach young people, talk their language, understand their reality and connect with them on a human level, with compassion. We are not doing that. How is it possible for IS to connect with people, to completely destroy and annihilate who they are, but we can't connect with them?"

Because, Imam, ISIS has realized what you have not yet: That you cannot reach impoverished and disaffected youths by preaching at them, attempting to scare them, and threatening them with terrible things that "might" happen to them. If you genuinely want to connect with them, you have to give them instead an immediate message of hope and an immediate reason to want to stay where they are.

ISIS says "Come with us and we will give you a reason to live and to die." All you and your programs have been saying is "don't go with ISIS because they are bad people." You have not been telling them "Stay in Britain and WE will give you a reason to live and to die"; and more importantly, you have not been GIVING them a reason to live and to die. Young people, especially young men, need tangibles--money, food, jobs, security.

ISIS gives them that, at least initially. Then it tells them, these are the people who took away your reasons for living and dying. They are taking it away from your family and friends. If you help us kill them, you will get your revenge on them. And those young men now have a reason to die for their friends and to live for them. ISIS is just a gang, only with more firepower, and gangs use the same recruiting strategy. We will take care of you, as long as you take care of us. And usually, they do take care of them, even as they kill them.

So Imam, if you really want to "connect" with your youn ...


Last Friday I was listening to an NPR program featuring an expert on  the threat ISIS poses and its use of social media where the interviewer interjected something about disenfranchised youth. She stopped him immediately and pointed out that most of those UK citizens going to fight were not from the lower levels of the social strata as one might imagine but well educated members of their community who typically enjoyed some social standing.
 
2014-08-24 02:33:06 AM
The tea party is expanding to the UK?
 
2014-08-24 02:58:46 AM

Unscratchable_Itch: What the hell could they be telling these guy to make them want to leave the UK to go fight in Syria? The women are hotter and easier and you can make more money? And some of these guy were born and raised in the UK? There's something here that I just don't get.


Young guys

(a) rebel against their parents

(b) seek adventure

(c) seek comradeship, family and male role models where not available at home

Nothing changes.

It's just a little unfortunate the organisers of the ISIS adventure holiday are batshiat insane.
 
2014-08-24 03:11:43 AM

tinyarena: LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.

Sure, like having police patrol a neighborhood creates gangs?
As always, Economic Opportunity, combined with an Iron Fist is what it takes.


Sure, if the police patrols involved blowing up your neighbor's house, then killing your parents.
 
2014-08-24 03:13:19 AM

LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.


So, the alternative is.....what? Sit there and wait for the blade to go across all our throats?
 
2014-08-24 03:14:49 AM

HighOnCraic: You know who ELSE was a member of ISIS?

[img.fark.net image 194x259]


If I scanned that bar code at the bottom, would it read that I get 50 cents off a package of Oscar Meyer hot dogs?
 
2014-08-24 03:22:38 AM

TV's Vinnie: LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.

So, the alternative is.....what? Sit there and wait for the blade to go across all our throats?


Police work.. and not Ferguson Police work.
 
2014-08-24 03:40:47 AM
Gyrfalcon:

Because, Imam, ISIS has realized what you have not yet: That you cannot reach impoverished and disaffected youths by preaching at them, attempting to scare them, and threatening them with terrible things that "might" happen to them. If you genuinely want to connect with them, you have to give them instead an immediate message of hope and an immediate reason to want to stay where they are.

Is it possible that we could say the War On Drugs and the War On Terror have been using many of the same strategies, and have created the same results in each sphere of influence? People are still taking loads of drugs despite decades of one war, and people are still becoming terrorists despite a decade and a half of another kind of war.

So what should we do now?
 
2014-08-24 03:46:36 AM

TV's Vinnie: LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.

So, the alternative is.....what? Sit there and wait for the blade to go across all our throats?


win their hearts and minds
 
2014-08-24 04:03:12 AM

log_jammin: TV's Vinnie: LordJiro: Alphax: The war on terror has failed. "All it's done has created more polarisation, making the world a much more unsafe place," the imam said. We have "got to change the record" and start "normalising our relations with the Muslim world". And, he claimed, "IS is the beast that we have created by our escalation of the war on terror. If we continue along this trajectory we will create an even bigger beast in the future."

Yeee-up.

Yep. The 'War on Terror' was the greatest recruiting tool terrorists could have imagined.

So, the alternative is.....what? Sit there and wait for the blade to go across all our throats?

win their hearts and minds


Sadly, and I really wish I could say this without coming across as some Fox News warmongering jackoff, but that's going to be futile. By the mere fact that we are not THEIR brand of Muslim, we are just a bunch of heads waiting to be separated from our necks to them. No middle ground or grey zone with these particular psychos. Even most of the Muslim world would be decapitated by these extremists.

They have as much to do with Islam as the WBC has to do with Christianity, but it don't matter because they got the tanks, the money, and the territory to shove their brand of religion down everyone's throats.

ISIS is pretty much a real-life version of Hydra.
 
2014-08-24 04:06:58 AM

TV's Vinnie: ISIS is pretty much a real-life version of Hydra.


I've been thinking of the Ten Rings group that grabbed Tony Stark and tried to force him to build missiles for them.
 
2014-08-24 04:07:46 AM
Isn't life itself a sort of 'death-cult'? Death is one of the few things that life has in common.

In fact... maybe if we all started looking at what we have in common more than what makes us different, we might find it a lot easier to get along.

Tall order, I know, but it seems like such an obvious solution to a whole lot of our stupid problems to me.
 
2014-08-24 04:13:46 AM

worlddan: Sgygus: A siren song to angry young men, come war with us and rule the world.


Lok'tar ogar!


QAPLA'
 
2014-08-24 04:22:55 AM

Cyclometh: TuteTibiImperes: It's the kind of thing we need more of - religious leaders who are willing to step up and call out the asshattery that certain elements of their own religion espouse.

It's the kind of thing we've had plenty of for many years but no one pays attention to. The media doesn't give a damn about it because religious leaders taking anti-radicalization stances doesn't fit the narrative, nor does it drive clicks. In the rare case we get a story about something like this it's presented as an exception rather than a rule, which is not true but sells better.

Individuals either agree with the guy saying "radical religion is bad", in which case they're not likely to be very vocal about it, or they will use it to say that he's an exception to the "Islam is a violent faith practiced by ignorant savages" type of narrative.

In short, everyone sees what they want to see and will say what they think is true, and will use this guy and people like him to fuel their  own narrative, and continue to ignore facts.


Yeah, it is one of the big fallacies of modern times - "I read a lot of different news sources, so I know what is going on in the world". No, in fact unless you are very good at mentally adjusting things you learn from the news factoring in that the news shows the rarest events all the time, and common events hardly ever, then the average person that never keeps up with the news probably has a view of the world that is a lot closer to reality.
 
2014-08-24 05:22:15 AM

Do you know the way to Mordor: Gyrfalcon:

Because, Imam, ISIS has realized what you have not yet: That you cannot reach impoverished and disaffected youths by preaching at them, attempting to scare them, and threatening them with terrible things that "might" happen to them. If you genuinely want to connect with them, you have to give them instead an immediate message of hope and an immediate reason to want to stay where they are.

Is it possible that we could say the War On Drugs and the War On Terror have been using many of the same strategies, and have created the same results in each sphere of influence? People are still taking loads of drugs despite decades of one war, and people are still becoming terrorists despite a decade and a half of another kind of war.

So what should we do now?


SSDD

It's not some shocking revelation to know that scaring people away from an undesired behavior (drugs, terrorism) simply does not work alone; it has to be done in concert with ALSO understanding the reason people want to obtain the undesired behavior (drugs, terrorism) and then provide a better alternative that addresses those needs.

The problem is that it is much much easier to demonize the undesired behavior and declare that anyone who does that must be a criminal or mentally defective in some way (because nobody could really want to abuse drugs/sell drugs or be a terrorist) and then create an anti-behavior campaign designed to scare people away from that behavior as if it was merely an end unto itself. (You are not an evil person, therefore, you do not want to use drugs/be a terrorist! And if you do, then you are a criminal/murderer! Don't do that!)

But to devise an actual anti-drug strategy means first of all assessing the myriad reasons--social, psychological, emotional, physical--why people use and abuse drugs, then devising strategies for countering each specific reason and tailoring it accordingly. The reason a white middle-class teenage male uses drugs, for instance, will not be the same reason a black lower-class middle-aged woman uses drugs--yet our anti-drug program currently treats them as if they were both the same.

And in the same way, nobody goes to become a "terrorist" yet all anti-extremist education starts out as if ISIS or al-Qaeda came in to the madrasas saying "Okay! Who wants to become a murderer and an international criminal?" Since nobody cares to understand that there is in fact a legitimate cause of extremism (in that it meets a legitimate need among its members), and that these needs are varied and often specific to the neighborhood or region where the groups are recruiting, nobody has yet come up with a viable method of countering them.

For instance: Someone said above that it seems like a lot of "terrorists" seem to come from well-educated members of their community with good social standing. That's true. What they don't have is good social standing in the greater British community; hence, they are outsiders in the larger community in which they are embedded. They have just enough education to feel a tremendous sense of dislocation and disassociation. Anomie is a great creator of desperation, and can lead to suicide or heroism, depending on the circumstances. Education is a prerequisite for being able to notice just how bad things are; so is the social standing to leave one's own circles and move into others.

So what can be done? Acknowledging that there is no simple solution, but that multiple solutions will be required, is probably the first step. Acknowledging that the behavior is criminal, but the people themselves seldom are, is probably the second. And realizing that behaviors are not an end unto themselves but a means of fulfilling an unmet need--whether the desire to alleviate back pain or the desire to contribute meaningfully to a society--and then offering another way to meet those needs would probably solve a lot of the rest of the problems. Will that happen? Unlikely, since it's not a Simple Solution. And people prefer those.
 
2014-08-24 06:33:18 AM

Gyrfalcon: So Imam, if you really want to "connect" with your young men and women and keep them from running off on some idealistic ISIS crusade, stop telling them what bad evil people ISIS is made of. Instead, don't tell them anything. Give them food, find them jobs, help their families with housing problems and racism. Give them reasons to live and to die in Britain; then they won't need to find reasons to live and to die in Syria.


I'm sure he does some of that, but you are expecting a lot from a single Imam with many other obligations and responsibilities. What you're talking about is a societal task.
 
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