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(Politico)   You know it's bad when a "good night" in Ferguson results in only 6 arrests. Progress, people   (politico.com) divider line 354
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1774 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2014 at 7:44 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-21 12:21:55 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.


It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.
 
2014-08-21 12:24:59 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..


Get back to your trailer and spend your disability check on Wilson's defense fund.
 
2014-08-21 12:25:53 PM  

Sammichless: Dansker: Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.

Pretty good point....... but, we share a lot of things with the Western World.

Cultural changes are a big one that we mostly share.
Increased ADHD (I have no idea why this would help)
Someone already mentioned video games
Obesity (It's rough being a chubby thug)
Erectile Dysfunction (Testosterone?)
Socialism (Better safety nets make criminal behavior less desirable)
Helicopter parenting (I shot BB guns and didn't wear a helmet and knee pads when I rode a bike..... Young people now maybe more adverse to risk taking.)

I'm sure I could invent more reasons if I felt like it.


I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.
More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.
 
2014-08-21 12:28:48 PM  

Dansker: WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.

It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.


It's also a major reason that China is considered a ticking time bomb; the old one child policy and parental preference for boys leading to a change of 3 more boys than girls per hundred births to 10.5 more boys than girls per hundred births. You've got tens of millions of young men who don't have a reasonable expectation to find a wife in the country, and that's going to lead to a lot of bored teenagers/young adults with too much testosterone and a chip on their shoulder.

(Unrelated, but one factor of China's insanely high savings rates appears to be the one child policy too. Studies have found that the steeper the gender disparity among young adults in an area of the country the higher the savings rate. The logic is that both young men and their parents are concerned about their marriage prospects and as a result seek to establish wealth at a young age to make them more attractive suitors.)
 
2014-08-21 12:28:54 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.


The Police in Ferguson (like many places) has failed their community. I do not know all of things that they have done wrong.

The protests happening now would not happen in a community that could trust their police.

BUT

I am worried that they have pinned to much on the Michael Brown shooting.

If they are wrong (and that the cop was following his training), I am worried that they will only create more tragedy from this tragedy.

I have seen your posts, I know what side you are on........ what do you think?

If Wilson is not guilty of a crime, do you think that the protests will do more harm than good?

/I DO think it's great that the protests have gotten the DOJ involved!
 
2014-08-21 12:30:43 PM  

mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.



Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.
 
2014-08-21 12:31:07 PM  

Grungehamster: Dansker: WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.

It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.

It's also a major reason that China is considered a ticking time bomb; the old one child policy and parental preference for boys leading to a change of 3 more boys than girls per hundred births to 10.5 more boys than girls per hundred births. You've got tens of millions of young men who don't have a reasonable expectation to find a wife in the country, and that's going to lead to a lot of bored teenagers/young adults with too much testosterone and a chip on their shoulder.

(Unrelated, but one factor of China's insanely high savings rates appears to be the one child policy too. Studies have found that the steeper the gender disparity among young adults in an area of the country the higher the savings rate. The logic is that both young men and their parents are concerned about their marriage prospects and as a result seek to establish wealth at a young age to make them more attractive suitors.)


Since it was not clear: I am aware China has relaxed the one child policy, but the ripples of it are still happening; the gender disparity peaked about 9 years ago so in another half decade or so we'll see if the fears are unfounded.
 
2014-08-21 12:34:11 PM  

Dansker: I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.


More good points.

Seriously.

But, I still imagine that it isn't ALL average age related..... the drop in violent crime seems much more dramatic than I think that can account for.

/Just because I think so!
 
2014-08-21 12:36:41 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: TheAgeOfEgos: CSB:  I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc.  Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain.  During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope.  Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers.  I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital.  I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture.  Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell.  Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture.  I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education.  He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.


In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson


That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.


LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.


It's been going around, I was just shocked at the # (And really, as in typical Fark fashion--any update/news source on an ongoing case becomes a general discussion thread).  I was shocked that many people would willingly donate their cash to someone they do not know, over an incident they have little to no facts on.

Unlike parties from both sides, I haven't made a determination on what happened with Brown/Wilson--and even then I don't donate to stuff like that.  The last donation I made that was not related to a health field was for...wait for it...Obama's election run.  Really puts a different spin on your "LOL" response doesn't it :).
 
2014-08-21 12:39:30 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.


You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.
 
2014-08-21 12:43:18 PM  

dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.


So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?
 
2014-08-21 12:45:00 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.



Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.
 
2014-08-21 12:48:06 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?


The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.
 
2014-08-21 12:49:11 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.


Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.


You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.
 
2014-08-21 12:49:16 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.


I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Kind of invalidates "drive with a white friend" meme.
 
2014-08-21 12:49:21 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?


bullshiat. he was treated and released the same farking day.
 
2014-08-21 12:50:25 PM  

jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.


But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.
 
2014-08-21 12:51:29 PM  

Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.


Only without permission.
 
2014-08-21 12:51:54 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.


The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.
 
2014-08-21 12:52:10 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?


No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.
 
2014-08-21 12:53:03 PM  

Sammichless: Dansker: I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.

More good points.

Seriously.

But, I still imagine that it isn't ALL average age related..... the drop in violent crime seems much more dramatic than I think that can account for.

/Just because I think so!


I'll agree that video games may have played their part, but think about this: If the "blame demographics" side of the arguemnent is true, then politicians can't take credit or place blame, and I think we'd all like to see that.
So can't you at least want it to be true?
 
2014-08-21 12:53:36 PM  

Geoff Peterson: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

bullshiat. he was treated and released the same farking day.


What's bullshiat?  That he was treated and released the same day tells us nothing about his injuries.  The fact that he was treated tells us there was some kind of injury.
 
2014-08-21 12:53:54 PM  

jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.


You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?
 
2014-08-21 12:54:37 PM  

Gunny Highway: Dansker: For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.

What is the harm of letting them stand in the media pen.  Why is there a media pen at all?


So they don't get beheaded by an angry mob?
 
2014-08-21 12:54:54 PM  

mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Kind of invalidates "drive with a white friend" meme.


I once had a cop do something similar.  They approached us after we heard one officer say, "We go powder!"  He asked us what we were thinking?

They found a baggie of mashed up cookies in the bottom of my buddy's backpack.
 
2014-08-21 12:55:09 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.

Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.

You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked ...


I've tried to explain to my black friends (yes, I have them so therefore I can't be racist) that the whole "what are you doing/where are you going/who are you visiting" interrogation barrage even comes at us white people even when we're in the right part of town for the way we look and the car we're driving.
 
2014-08-21 12:56:00 PM  

dr_blasto: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.


That would be the officer releasing his records, not the hospital as you stated would be the only way you would accept them in your previous post.
 
2014-08-21 12:58:28 PM  

Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Kind of invalidates "drive with a white friend" meme.

I once had a cop do something similar.  They approached us after we heard one officer say, "We go powder!"  He asked us what we were thinking?

They found a baggie of mashed up cookies in the bottom of my buddy's backpack.


I guess part of it was we were coming from track practice and were all slobby looking. I still remember the cops though my black friend's Van Halen 5150 Tour t-shirt was funny. They kept asking "YOU?!?! Like Van Halen!?!?!?"
 
2014-08-21 12:58:35 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.



Grrrrr!!! This is an outrage!!! Is that what you're looking for? Lol. You seem to like stats. Go back and re-evaluate them.
 
2014-08-21 12:58:39 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.


I do not believe that you can say "Period end of story" here.

I am pretty sure that the FPD failed in Ferguson. WHY do I think that?!?

Because of massive protests and looting over it.

Maybe you could argue that they did their job just fine, but, their PR dept. failed to connect to the people. And that their community outreach sucked.

That is, of course, not the most likely way that they failed (by a longshot)......... BUT, they DID fail.
 
2014-08-21 12:58:52 PM  

jst3p: Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

Only without permission.


Even so, I'd hardly think it's normal practice for hospitals to "release" information like that (assuming you mean give it to the media). If anything, they'd provide the patient with copies of records etc. for him to make public on his own if he wants. But then you'd probably have a whole bunch of other conspiracy theories springing up if that were to happen.
 
2014-08-21 01:00:08 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?


You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.
 
2014-08-21 01:00:58 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.

That would be the officer releasing his records, not the hospital as you stated would be the only way you would accept them in your previous post.


Oh, whatever. If the hospital certifies that they are, indeed from that day and for that guy, then that's all good.

The point is, the broken orbital and broken jaw are lies. They've been repeatedly floated and in order to overcome the damage of those lies, they'll have to prove it. The officer should have to have an affirmative defense at this point.
 
2014-08-21 01:01:06 PM  

Dansker: I'll agree that video games may have played their part, but think about this: If the "blame demographics" side of the arguemnent is true, then politicians can't take credit or place blame, and I think we'd all like to see that.So can't you at least want it to be true?


Fair enough.

I really never thought that politics had as much difference as cultural changes anyhow.

:)
 
2014-08-21 01:01:11 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


I agree.  I will cite COPS has evidence.
 
2014-08-21 01:04:35 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.



Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.
 
2014-08-21 01:04:55 PM  

Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

without patient's permission
 
2014-08-21 01:06:42 PM  

dr_blasto: Oh, whatever. If the hospital certifies that they are, indeed from that day and for that guy, then that's all good.


What kind of hospital would do that? I mean, I know I've had to get certified records from clinics, but that's been at my request, and usually for things like me having to prove I'd undergone medical testing for immigration purposes etc. Even if I were to say, in writing, that I waive confidentiality, and even if I were to scan and post those medical records on Facebook, I'd imagine that any third parties (other than the government) would still get a "no comment" from the clinic if they called them asking for "certification" of my medical records.
 
2014-08-21 01:06:47 PM  

dr_blasto: The officer should have to have an affirmative defense at this point.


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119157/darren-wilsons-conviction- wi ll-be-basically-impossible

Not in Missouri. Instead, as long as there is a modicum of evidence and reasonable plausibility in support of a self-defense claim, a court must accept the claim and acquit the accused. The prosecution must not only prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime, but also disprove a defendant's claim of self-defense to the same high standard. Under Missouri law, all a citizen claiming self-defense or a police officer claiming to have fired while pursuing a dangerous criminal need do is "inject the issue of justification." In other words, he only needs to produce some evidence (his own testimony counts) supporting the claim. Once he does so, "
 
2014-08-21 01:06:50 PM  

Biological Ali: jst3p: Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

Only without permission.

Even so, I'd hardly think it's normal practice for hospitals to "release" information like that (assuming you mean give it to the media). If anything, they'd provide the patient with copies of records etc. for him to make public on his own if he wants. But then you'd probably have a whole bunch of other conspiracy theories springing up if that were to happen.


Me? No. But as I said, until there is  any evidence that the assault happened I don't see any reason to believe that it did.
 
2014-08-21 01:06:57 PM  

mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.

I hate to be that racist guy, but Maplewood is about 75% white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_Missouri
Ferguson can forget about copying Maplewood.

I know that; I live there. But it's not a bad template for turning around an inner ring suburb. Or are you saying that once a suburb has gone black, ...


No, I've seen gentrification happen in plenty of places.  Ferguson doesn't seem like a promising place for it, though, given that it's been de-gentrifying for a quarter century and it just went through a week+ of protests/riots/looting.
 
2014-08-21 01:09:56 PM  

Sammichless: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.

I do not believe that you can say "Period end of story" here.

I am pretty sure that the FPD failed in Ferguson. WHY do I think that?!?

Because of massive protests and looting over it.

Maybe you could argue that they did their job just fine, but, their PR dept. failed to connect to the people. And that their community outreach sucked.

That is, of course, not the most likely way that they failed (by a longshot)......... BUT, they DID fail.


Nothing the FPD could have done would have prevented this mess. They are not the ones who caused this mess. The protesters and rioters did. They before any facts were gathered they were demanding a lynching. They only want vengeance not justice. I also fault Governor Nixon for not stomping out this insurrection quickly. He should have had the NG called up with in hours of the riots. Couple that with the media fanning the flames and the arrival of professional trouble makers a lot of people are at fault.
 
2014-08-21 01:11:14 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.


And I will stand by my assertion that you are pulling that out of your ass. "Where are you going? What are you doing here?" are common questions asked to anyone who looks less than middle class. People who are doing wrong will sometimes incriminate themselves out of nervousness. Standard cop tactic is to as open ended questions and let them ramble on.

But if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. Racism is your nail.
 
2014-08-21 01:12:08 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.


Do they generally pull over minorities more than whites in non-farked-up parts of the country? I know that crime-for-crime the black kid is more likely to in court for a first offense than a white kid in almost every jurisdiction, but that's not the same as driving.

CSB-wise, I was once pulled over in Compton area for being white, out of state plates and having tinted windows. Was 1991, crack-war era. The cop said the only people that looked like us that came through either shot the place up or were buying drugs.
 
2014-08-21 01:13:58 PM  
I kind of wish the protesters would pick their fights better. 300 lb, six foot plus tall guy rushing a cop after robbing a store? I'd farking shoot him. Same with Rodney King, he was begging for a beat down and got it.

I'm sure there are better examples of police brutality worthy of protests.

The looting doesn't help either.
 
2014-08-21 01:14:56 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Nothing the FPD could have done would have prevented this mess. They are not the ones who caused this mess. The protesters and rioters did. They before any facts were gathered they were demanding a lynching. They only want vengeance not justice. I also fault Governor Nixon for not stomping out this insurrection quickly. He should have had the NG called up with in hours of the riots. Couple that with the media fanning the flames and the arrival of professional trouble makers a lot of people are at fault.


They should have come out with the video footage on day one so there was a counter to the "gentle giant" on the way to college narrative.
 
2014-08-21 01:16:07 PM  

hitlersbrain: I kind of wish the protesters would pick their fights better. 300 lb, six foot plus tall guy rushing a cop after robbing a store? I'd farking shoot him. Same with Rodney King, he was begging for a beat down and got it.

I'm sure there are better examples of police brutality worthy of protests.

The looting doesn't help either.


I live with my mom. User name too obvious. Way too obvious.
 
2014-08-21 01:16:52 PM  

jst3p: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.


You don't need a press pass to be a journalist.
 
2014-08-21 01:18:30 PM  

dr_blasto: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.

Do they generally pull over minorities more than whites in non-farked-up parts of the country? I know that crime-for-crime the black kid is more likely to in court for a first offense than a white kid in almost every jurisdiction, but that's not the same as driving.

CSB-wise, I was once pulled over in Compton area for being white, out of state plates and having tinted windows. Was 1991, crack-war era. The cop said the only people that looked like us that came through either shot the place up or were buying drugs.



I lived in Los Gatos, CA during high school and early 20's. Los Gatos is a pretty affluent community, but we didn't belong there (lived in one of my grand fathers rental properties). I drove beater cars and every time I got a new one (beaters didn't last me long) I would get pulled over a handful of times until the cops learned that the car belonged in the area. Every single time I was asked "What are you doing in the area?"

/white guy who was asked this every time
//Dro is right, racism exists, but is wrong about this tangent.
///he will die before he admits he could be wrong about something though
 
2014-08-21 01:19:05 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: jst3p: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.

You don't need a press pass to be a journalist.


But you need one to be in the area reserved for media.
 
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