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(Politico)   You know it's bad when a "good night" in Ferguson results in only 6 arrests. Progress, people   (politico.com) divider line 354
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1719 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2014 at 7:44 AM (5 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-21 11:08:33 AM
It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look  much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.
 
2014-08-21 11:14:20 AM

JAGChem82: parasol: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?
That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?
(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was ...


That sounds a lot like a failure on the part of the local mayor and council. Thanks for the info.
I live in a muni so small it was left out of the phone book once, but we have deep connections as a neighborhood.
 
2014-08-21 11:14:29 AM
As a follow up: Contrast that to where I live now. By land mass Clarke County, GA is the smallest county in the state (out of 159), but Athens is the fifth largest city in the state. I would say that the land mass of Athens would cover about at least 10 unique municipalities in that area alone. So to someone like myself who moved from the northwest to southeast side of Athens, you'd be moving from Ferguson to Jennings or Hazelwood, for example, just based on distance.
 
2014-08-21 11:16:23 AM

Dansker: kindms: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.


except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"
 
2014-08-21 11:16:23 AM

TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]


Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.
 
2014-08-21 11:20:49 AM

iremo: All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.


What's wrong with letting the grand jury to their job? If there is clear evidence of Wilson's facial injury + corroboration from witnesses that be was bum-rushed, why would you drag Wilson through a trial? What if he really was in fear for his life and feels like a pile of shiat about it? What does a trial accomplish if there's a 99.99% chance he will be found innocent?
 
2014-08-21 11:23:33 AM

mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.


I hate to be that racist guy, but Maplewood is about 75% white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_Missouri

Ferguson can forget about copying Maplewood.
 
2014-08-21 11:23:37 AM

Dansker: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.


538 was that way.
 
2014-08-21 11:23:43 AM

kindms: Dansker: kindms: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"


The Guardian is mainstream media, and he mostly wrote columns for Salon and Guardian, in other words, told us his opinion. Opinion and personal analysis is not what I find lacking in news media.
But fine, that's half an example.
 
2014-08-21 11:24:53 AM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]

Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.


the traditional argument is that abortion being legal has reduced the crime rates. I think it was made popular in that freakanomics book or similar. Essentially saying less unwanted children = less crime etc
 
2014-08-21 11:26:11 AM

Pull the Plug on Grannie: iremo: All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

What's wrong with letting the grand jury to their job? If there is clear evidence of Wilson's facial injury + corroboration from witnesses that be was bum-rushed, why would you drag Wilson through a trial? What if he really was in fear for his life and feels like a pile of shiat about it? What does a trial accomplish if there's a 99.99% chance he will be found innocent?


Good question. We can wait for their findings.
 
2014-08-21 11:26:27 AM

dr_blasto: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

538 was that way.


True, but with a very narrow focus, IIRC.
 
2014-08-21 11:26:57 AM

Dansker: kindms: Dansker: kindms: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"

The Guardian is mainstream media, and he mostly wrote columns for Salon and Guardian, in other words, told us his opinion. Opinion and personal analysis is not what I find lacking in news media.
But fine, that's half an example.


Ugh. he wrote books prior to working with salon. He only worked with the Guardian for about a year before moving on to be at the intercept. I thought your question was what bloggers have made it big. he was and has
 
2014-08-21 11:30:14 AM

kindms: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]

Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.

the traditional argument is that abortion being legal has reduced the crime rates. I think it was made popular in that freakanomics book or similar. Essentially ...


I agree.  I didn't mean to suggest there is one single reason, but I've never seen anybody legitimately make a case for video games.  But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX and play some Madden or Call of Duty.  They can play with friends.  They get a sense of accomplishment, which they need at that age.  They're not out looking for things to do.
 
2014-08-21 11:33:57 AM

iremo: It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look  much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.


The other side of this story is that a gentle natured teen was found jaywalking by a racist cop.

The racist cop made him raise his hands in the air, then shoot him anyways, in front of many witnesses in the middle of the daylight.

The racist cop had been in many dangerous situations before, and had spent 8 years working in a minority neighborhood without ever once firing his weapon....... but, he felt today was a good day to randomly pick a teenager to execute.

The shot fire inside the officer's car probably didn't even have anything to do with Michael Brown.

/Assumptions make us look stupid. Knock it off.
 
2014-08-21 11:38:52 AM

Dictatorial_Flair: You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.


You expect him to wait for the Musketeer Squad to arrive?
So they can shoot him with muskets.
Because getting into a swordfight would be stupid, that's why they have the muskets.
 
2014-08-21 11:42:03 AM

mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]


Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do  not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.
 
2014-08-21 11:42:44 AM

CheatCommando: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do  not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.


Err. Do not have our incarceration rate. Moar coffee needed.
 
2014-08-21 11:43:49 AM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX


I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.
 
2014-08-21 11:50:34 AM

Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.


The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.
 
2014-08-21 11:50:59 AM

mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.


We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.
 
2014-08-21 11:52:28 AM

firefly212: A good night would be a night when all the bad white police in Missouri are fired quit, when non-lethal weapons are only used against actual threats, and deadly force is only used as an absolute last resort. That was a quiet night... not a good night.


Somebody had to do it.
 
2014-08-21 11:52:53 AM

TheAgeOfEgos: CSB:  I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc.  Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain.  During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope.  Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers.  I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital.  I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture.  Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell.  Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture.  I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education.  He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.


In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson


That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.



LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.
 
2014-08-21 11:54:06 AM

keypusher: mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.

I hate to be that racist guy, but Maplewood is about 75% white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_Missouri
Ferguson can forget about copying Maplewood.


I know that; I live there. But it's not a bad template for turning around an inner ring suburb. Or are you saying that once a suburb has gone black, they'll never go back?
 
2014-08-21 11:55:01 AM

iremo: It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look  much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.


My gut feeling on what happened (and I have nothing to base this on other than feeling it is the option that assumes that the people involved are all reasonable and nobody who was actually there that day is making up their story whole cloth):

Brown robs store (to me it looks less like he got several packs of cigars from behind the counter, dropped some of them in front of the counter, hands back the portion of the cigarettes still in his hands, but grabs the ones he dropped and heads for the door, pushing the employee trying to stop him). Wilson sees them walking in the street and asks them to get off the road. He's about to leave when he notices the cigars and remembers the scanner message about the robbery,

He backs up to ask Brown and Johnson about it, and Brown panics and either attacks the officer or attempts to turn to flee and is grabbed by the collar by the officer, at which point he begins fighting to get away (this is obviously a big difference for most people on who is at fault in this case, but both options seem equally likely to me). Wilson grabs his gun and it discharges; Brown pulls away and runs up the road ~35 feet away in the time it takes Wilson to get out of the vehicle, yell "freeze", and fire a shot that either grazing his arm or is a warning shot that does not touch him.

Brown stops in his tracks and turns around. Officer has a gun on him and he fired while he was fleeing, so trying to escape now would be a bad decision. He moves towards the officer to give up or at least give the appearance that he was turning himself in (note the witness at the scene who is the basis for the claim he charged didn't say he was running, just that after running away he turned around to head back to the cop). Wilson interpreted this as an aggressive move suggesting he was going to attempt to resume the fight and starts firing. Brown is hit multiple times in the arm, crumpling and putting his hands up to block the shots, The two head shots are at this point; what was once center mass area is now above his neck.

There, an explanation that gels with both what we've seen in the evidence, matches witness accounts (except for Johnson's but he's unreliable since he was Brown's friend and his lawyer has had to repeatedly amend his statement when new evidence has come to light), and doesn't rely on the assumption that either party was completely out of control irrational. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just where I am.
 
2014-08-21 11:58:49 AM

CheatCommando: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do  not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.


I have always said this: It depends on the country's moral compass. Prison in some places is like a halfway house, others a dungeon. Sometimes prison is used to educate, other times to incarcerate.
 
2014-08-21 11:58:54 AM

Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.


Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.
 
2014-08-21 11:59:02 AM
I am sure the protesters used up all their vacation time and had to get back to work.
 
2014-08-21 11:59:37 AM

Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.


It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.
 
2014-08-21 12:00:54 PM

mjohnson71: Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.


lulz
 
2014-08-21 12:01:15 PM
I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..
 
2014-08-21 12:02:13 PM

mjohnson71: Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.


Here we go:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/20/amid-mo st ly-peaceful-ferguson-protests-a-darren-wilson-supporter-is-attacked/


Earlier, that calm was interrupted about 8:20 p.m. Central time when a woman walked West Florissant Avenue waving a sign that read, "I support Darren Wilson" and shouting, "Y'all need to get your facts straight."

Washington Post reporter DeNeen Brown said someone hit the woman over the head and another grabbed the sign. Police rushed to the scene. And officers put her in a police vehicle and drove away.
"That sign was meant to provoke us. I asked the police why are you letting her protest causing problems over here?" said Tenisha Wheeler, 30, who lives in St. Louis City. She added, "I wouldn't dare go to a rally supporting Wilson with my own self."

Amber Howland, 30, who traveled from Alton, Ill., also saw the incident. "The police walked her past," she said. "I said I'm white I can get through the crowd." I was going to hit this b--. They pushed me away. And ran and put her in a truck."
 
2014-08-21 12:03:18 PM

Clemkadidlefark: I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot.


We tend to miss things that didn't happen.
 
2014-08-21 12:03:45 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: TheAgeOfEgos: CSB:  I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc.  Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain.  During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope.  Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers.  I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital.  I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture.  Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell.  Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture.  I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education.  He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.


In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson


That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.


LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.


That's been floating around. I thought there was a redlit link yesterday? Something about the cop raised 100K and the Brown family raised 0 or something. Right-wing people really like their cops, even while they're whining about encroaching government and the like. I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of the chick posing with a gun and in front of hobbylobby were all dropping cash in his account.
 
2014-08-21 12:04:19 PM

dr_blasto: Grungehamster:

I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

 Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.
 
2014-08-21 12:04:24 PM

BobCumbers: I am sure the protesters used up all their vacation time and had to get back to work.



Your joke about them not having jobs would make more sense if the protests weren't held in the dead of night.


/still wouldn't be funny though
//new material is needed
 
2014-08-21 12:04:44 PM

Clemkadidlefark: I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..


lolwut
 
2014-08-21 12:06:00 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.


I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.
 
2014-08-21 12:06:27 PM

WelldeadLink: dr_blasto: Grungehamster: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

 Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.


or the cop authorizes it. Or it is used as evidence to prove the cop was assaulted in some court.
 
2014-08-21 12:09:59 PM

JAGChem82: parasol: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?
That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?
(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was ...


I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.
 
2014-08-21 12:10:11 PM

WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.


It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.
 
2014-08-21 12:11:25 PM

WelldeadLink: dr_blasto: Grungehamster: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

 Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.


Just ask some Chinese or Russian hackers: I'm sure they already have all his medical data.
 
2014-08-21 12:14:36 PM

mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.



I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.
 
2014-08-21 12:16:59 PM
Clemkadidlefark

I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

Source? :\
 
2014-08-21 12:17:38 PM

Dansker: Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.


Pretty good point....... but, we share a lot of things with the Western World.

Cultural changes are a big one that we mostly share.
Increased ADHD (I have no idea why this would help)
Someone already mentioned video games
Obesity (It's rough being a chubby thug)
Erectile Dysfunction (Testosterone?)
Socialism (Better safety nets make criminal behavior less desirable)
Helicopter parenting (I shot BB guns and didn't wear a helmet and knee pads when I rode a bike..... Young people now maybe more adverse to risk taking.)

I'm sure I could invent more reasons if I felt like it.
 
2014-08-21 12:17:56 PM

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.


Arianna Huffington?
 
2014-08-21 12:18:09 PM

HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.


That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.
 
2014-08-21 12:18:58 PM

Grungehamster: He backs up to ask Brown and Johnson about it, and Brown panics and either attacks the officer or attempts to turn to flee and is grabbed by the collar by the officer, at which point he begins fighting to get away (this is obviously a big difference for most people on who is at fault in this case, but both options seem equally likely to me). Wilson grabs his gun and it discharges; Brown pulls away and runs up the road ~35 feet away in the time it takes Wilson to get out of the vehicle, yell "freeze", and fire a shot that either grazing his arm or is a warning shot that does not touch him.


I'm with you to this point.  However, I think this is where our versions of events start to disagree.  Johnson says that he turned around with his hands up and said "Don't shoot".  I think he misheard, and Johnson was saying "HADOUKEN".  Notice the arm position:

american-otaku.com

Officer Wilson is a hero for getting the shots off before Brown unleashed a blue fireball.  Who knows how many it could have killed and much damage that would have caused?
 
2014-08-21 12:20:28 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Clemkadidlefark

I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

Source? :\


Fw:fw:fw:FW:Fw:fw:fw:fw
 
2014-08-21 12:21:02 PM

Dansker: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country


Police 'stop and think' action drags on, and only during the last 14 days, two Danes were hit by police shooting. Most often it affects the mentally ill

On the other hand, it is one of the most effective and efficient cures for mental illness.
 
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