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(Politico)   You know it's bad when a "good night" in Ferguson results in only 6 arrests. Progress, people   (politico.com) divider line 354
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1777 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Aug 2014 at 7:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-21 07:50:27 AM  
Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.
 
2014-08-21 07:50:53 AM  
blog.lawyer.com
 
2014-08-21 07:52:54 AM  
Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.
 
2014-08-21 07:53:54 AM  
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiat. I bet that a good night in Boston or any city would result in only six arrests.
 
2014-08-21 07:55:01 AM  

GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.


Well they did give him 20 seconds to comply. Progress?
 
2014-08-21 07:55:35 AM  

Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.


If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.
 
2014-08-21 07:57:50 AM  

skinink: Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiat. I bet that a good night in Boston or any city would result in only six arrests.



It's probably a good night in Philly if there are only 6 shootings
 
2014-08-21 07:59:43 AM  

LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.


Yeah, with CNN.
 
2014-08-21 08:00:51 AM  
I didn't hear anything about it, on Fark or on FB.  Of course, that nasty bit of thunderstorm rolling though would drive most people indoors.
 
2014-08-21 08:03:04 AM  
Good night for whom?
 
2014-08-21 08:03:40 AM  

Dinobot: Indy media

i.imgur.com

 
2014-08-21 08:04:12 AM  

LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.


People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.
 
2014-08-21 08:05:16 AM  

Alphax: I didn't hear anything about it, on Fark or on FB.  Of course, that nasty bit of thunderstorm rolling though would drive most people indoors.


"I want to protest this injustice...but I can't find my poncho."
 
2014-08-21 08:05:51 AM  
A great night in Ferguson: No molotov cocktails.
 
2014-08-21 08:06:16 AM  

Bowen: Alphax: I didn't hear anything about it, on Fark or on FB.  Of course, that nasty bit of thunderstorm rolling though would drive most people indoors.

"I want to protest this injustice...but I can't find my poncho."


Don't forget your lightning rod.
 
2014-08-21 08:07:45 AM  

GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.


You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.
 
2014-08-21 08:10:53 AM  
"The police confiscated no handguns after removing three the night before."

Yes, three guns- all very new in appearance, all the same make and model.
Kinda funny... looking.

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930/videos/599 05 403
 
2014-08-21 08:11:05 AM  
Apparently Wisconsin had learned its lesson about lack of police oversight.  Read Michael Bell's story about about the death of his son and how he fought to enact a law requiring outside investigations of police-caused fatalities.  It would be nice if other states would pass similar legislation.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-poli ce -killed-my-son-110038.html?ml=po_r#.U_XgLKPQqgU
 
2014-08-21 08:13:44 AM  
What would you call a night with only 6 arrests in Chicago?
 
2014-08-21 08:14:30 AM  

LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.


Yes.  Because clearly only those individuals with government approval are entitled to freedom of the press.
 
2014-08-21 08:15:32 AM  

Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.


... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.
/ It is very possible this particular case was not resolvable, but it seems to me that American cops will sooner shoot than attempt to resolve a dangerous situation non-violently -- most probably wouldn't know how anyway.
 
2014-08-21 08:16:08 AM  

Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.


img2.timeinc.net
4.bp.blogspot.com

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think
 
2014-08-21 08:16:17 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.


Who?
Serious question.  No snark.
 
2014-08-21 08:17:12 AM  
A good night would be a night when all the bad police in Missouri are fired, when non-lethal weapons are only used against actual threats, and deadly force is only used as an absolute last resort. That was a quiet night... not a good night.
 
2014-08-21 08:18:15 AM  

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.


Look up the top youtube earners.
 
2014-08-21 08:18:32 AM  

Maybe the cops are holding on to the out of state visitors.  Making them guests of the city longer.


GungFu

Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.


That was St. Louis City. The guy had a knife and rushed the cops. Not a "gentle giant" or "trade school aspirant". Just a guy trying to steal a little food to feed himself.

St. Louis City responded with "transparency" and "openness" immediately. They had plenty of witnesses to collaborate their side of the incident. Even though Google reviews calls the store owner/cook a "jerk", he made great sandwiches. Probably didn't deserve to get stabbed too much.
 
2014-08-21 08:18:32 AM  
Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)
 
2014-08-21 08:19:30 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.


I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.
 
2014-08-21 08:19:35 AM  

newton: "The police confiscated no handguns after removing three the night before."

Yes, three guns- all very new in appearance, all the same make and model.
Kinda funny... looking.

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930/videos/599 05 403

Tune in at 33:00.

"They all look just alike..."
"Yeah, they are all identical..."
"Is that possible?"
"They look brand new"
 
2014-08-21 08:20:17 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.


Plenty of journalists start as bloggers before getting hired by more mainstream outlets.
Hell, CNN is employing a good example in Brian Stelter.
 
2014-08-21 08:20:51 AM  

TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.
/ It is very possible this particular case was not resolvable, but it seems to me that American cops will sooner shoot than attempt to resolve a dangerous situation non-violently -- most probably wouldn't know how anyway.


It's still pretty awful that they killed the guy, and I do wonder why something else wasn't tried before it came down to him going all suicide-by-cop, but the report I read made it sound like they at least made an attempt not to shoot the guy. Kind of. If nothing else, they supposedly let him get dangerously close before blasting the shiat out of him. That's kind of like deescalation, right?
 
2014-08-21 08:23:23 AM  

BlindRaise: What would you call a night with only 6 arrests in Chicago?


What does 6 arrests work out as a per capita rate in Chicago vs. Ferguson?

/Genuinely curious
//Can't check populations at work, Wiki blocked.
 
2014-08-21 08:24:30 AM  

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.


In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.
 
2014-08-21 08:26:05 AM  

LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.


www.adbusters.org

We spend all this time biatching about the media.  People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong.  Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this?  That seems odd to me considering your handle.
 
2014-08-21 08:26:11 AM  
Meh, good and bad are relative. Compared to 8 stab wounds, 4 stab wounds are good, and 1 stab wound would be great.

roopost.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-08-21 08:28:27 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.


Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?
 
2014-08-21 08:29:01 AM  

Grungehamster:
1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)


Oh hai guys.

i2.cdn.turner.com

You miss me?

/notthisshiatagain.jpg
 
2014-08-21 08:30:01 AM  

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?


This exchange going plaid in 3...2...1
 
2014-08-21 08:30:43 AM  

SBinRR: I'll pass. Not that important to me.


So shut up.
 
2014-08-21 08:31:42 AM  

LucklessWonder: BlindRaise: What would you call a night with only 6 arrests in Chicago?

What does 6 arrests work out as a per capita rate in Chicago vs. Ferguson?

/Genuinely curious
//Can't check populations at work, Wiki blocked.


2013 Population Estimates per Wiki
Ferguson - 21,111
Chicago - 2,718,782

So just under 773 arrests to be comparable.
 
2014-08-21 08:32:00 AM  

King Something: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think


cdn29.elitedaily.com

You mean like "I will farking kill you" Man?

You know, it's not often that someone does something so egregious that both InforWars and Mother Jones agree:

http://www.infowars.com/ferguson-cop-points-gun-at-journalists-im-go in g-to-fing-kill-you/

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/08/gun-pointing-cop-ferguson-su sp ended

At least this guy got suspended.
 
2014-08-21 08:32:01 AM  

Elegy: Grungehamster:
1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

Oh hai guys.

[i2.cdn.turner.com image 640x360]

You miss me?

/notthisshiatagain.jpg


I was about to say the same thing. It's funny how these threads always seem to have a near identical pattern. the outcome of this one may be different though, depending on the veracity of the whole charging story.
 
2014-08-21 08:32:20 AM  

Bowen: "I want to protest this injustice...but I can't find my poncho."


Is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
 
2014-08-21 08:32:27 AM  
Ahhhh, good to see the "but Chicago" crowd is up early.
 
2014-08-21 08:33:03 AM  

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?


That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.
 
2014-08-21 08:33:14 AM  

Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.
/ It is very possible this particular case was not resolvable, but it seems to me that American cops will sooner shoot than attempt to resolve a dangerous situation non-violently -- most probably wouldn't know how anyway.

It's still pretty awful that they killed the guy, and I do wonder why something else wasn't tried before it came down to him going all suicide-by-cop, but the report I read made it sound like they at least made an attempt not to shoot the guy. Kind of. If nothing else, they supposedly let him get dangerously close before blasting the shiat out of him. That's kind of like deescalation, right?


Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?
Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"
Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?
Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?
These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'
/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.
// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows.
/// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.
 
2014-08-21 08:39:33 AM  

Elegy: Grungehamster:
1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

Oh hai guys.

[i2.cdn.turner.com image 640x360]

You miss me?

/notthisshiatagain.jpg


And that's a major reason that I've tried to hedge about the actual content of the witness video. A lot of people looked at the images of Zimmerman at the police station and said that he didn't have any injuries despite his claims and simply put the camera quality isn't good enough in either case to claim there was or wasn't any visible swelling or damage (hell, it's not even good enough to tell if that's really Wilson or another guy on the force who has the same haircut and the same build as his released photos +10-20 lbs.) However, if it is him he certainly doesn't seem to be carrying himself like someone with severe damage to his face and/or head. Then again, IANAD.
 
2014-08-21 08:43:31 AM  

TeamEd: Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?
Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"
Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?
Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?
These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'
/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.
// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows.
/// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.


I have no idea. Considering what I've seen from cops in the area, I suspect that deescalation isn't exactly a priority around there.
 
2014-08-21 08:44:22 AM  

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.


Perez Hilton comes to mind.

I'm not into blogs (especially pop culture ones), but he was just on the Howard Stern Show fingering Benji, so his name is still fresh in my head.
 
2014-08-21 08:51:31 AM  
Six arrests are pretty much a normal night in any medium sized American city.  Hell, I was a cop in a county that had only a hundred thousand people, and the jail probably saw twenty plus people a night come in, and most of the county was rural, meaning that there wasn't much trouble for people to get into, but when they did, they didn't get caught.
 
2014-08-21 08:53:05 AM  

LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.


So, self-employment is invalid? After all, it is has been said that freedom of the press belongs to those who own the presses, and a blogger owns their own.
 
2014-08-21 08:57:21 AM  

TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.


Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.
 
2014-08-21 09:05:03 AM  

MugzyBrown: skinink: Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiat. I bet that a good night in Boston or any city would result in only six arrests.


It's probably a good night in Philly if there are only 6 shootings


I'll have you know we only had 2 last night! PROGRESS!!!
 
2014-08-21 09:05:46 AM  

b0rg9: Is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?


Don't you know, you could make more money as a butcher.
 
2014-08-21 09:06:20 AM  

Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)


1) do you know of a substance called adrenaline?

2) tin foil hat warning please.
 
2014-08-21 09:07:27 AM  

King Something: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think


Not every "guy with a gun" scenario is the same.

Holmes was arrested by his car without a weapon at ready.

Loughner was attacked and subdued by bystanders when he dropped his magazine while reloading

Tensions are still high enough, you don't need to worsen things by perpetuating cheap disingenuous soundbites.
 
2014-08-21 09:08:51 AM  

MyRandomName: Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

1) do you know of a substance called adrenaline?

2) tin foil hat warning please.


Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.
 
2014-08-21 09:09:40 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.


Yeah, and those people ARE media, and have press passes. The people gettting kicked out of the media pool for not having credentials are not the ones with legit blogs.
 
2014-08-21 09:10:42 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: MyRandomName: Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

1) do you know of a substance called adrenaline?

2) tin foil hat warning please.

Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.


The autopsy report contradicts your perfect aim theory. Do you ever tire of being ignorant?
 
2014-08-21 09:10:54 AM  

Grungehamster: Elegy: Grungehamster:
1) If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

Oh hai guys.

[i2.cdn.turner.com image 640x360]

You miss me?

/notthisshiatagain.jpg

And that's a major reason that I've tried to hedge about the actual content of the witness video. A lot of people looked at the images of Zimmerman at the police station and said that he didn't have any injuries despite his claims and simply put the camera quality isn't good enough in either case to claim there was or wasn't any visible swelling or damage (hell, it's not even good enough to tell if that's really Wilson or another guy on the force who has the same haircut and the same build as his released photos +10-20 lbs.) However, if it is him he certainly doesn't seem to be carrying himself like someone with severe damage to his face and/or head. Then again, IANAD.


Apparently it wasn't Wilson; in the followup to last Friday's press conference, the Ferguson PD chief specifically said that he had taken a lot of questions about the other officers ine videos, and Darren Wilson was not the officer in those videos.
 
2014-08-21 09:14:57 AM  
cdn.memegenerator.net
 
2014-08-21 09:15:25 AM  

CheatCommando: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

So, self-employment is invalid? After all, it is has been said that freedom of the press belongs to those who own the presses, and a blogger owns their own.


You can become legit, but if you just have a wordpress and your friends as readership? You don't get in the press area.

/It's a low bar; I'm not saying you have to be international corporate media. Just have a legit, money-making media outlet, and some sort of credentials. Or be a freelancer with enough clips to get a press pass from the local press club. But don't be some hobbyist whose Twitter feed is read by your mom and her friends, and think that gives you the right to in the press area.
//If you're REALLY serious about being an indy citizen journalist, you wouldn't want to be in the press area anyway. You're probably going to get arrested, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?
 
2014-08-21 09:15:52 AM  
Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.
 
2014-08-21 09:16:51 AM  

StanleyPuff: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

Perez Hilton comes to mind.

I'm not into blogs (especially pop culture ones), but he was just on the Howard Stern Show fingering Benji, so his name is still fresh in my head.


The 80'S movie dog?
 
2014-08-21 09:17:15 AM  

MyRandomName: cameroncrazy1984: MyRandomName: Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn ...


We don't know how many shots the officer fired. But if he was 6 for 6 in an extremely stressful situation, then give him a medal for marksmanship.
 
2014-08-21 09:18:03 AM  

alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.


Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer."
"In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.
// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you.
/// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.
//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.
 
2014-08-21 09:18:22 AM  

King Something: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think


And it was the community members who took down laughner....not police.

Hey hey, ho ho, solidarity has got to go.
 
2014-08-21 09:19:40 AM  
While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.
 
2014-08-21 09:20:21 AM  
The democrat protestors probably ran out of stuff to steal. This break in the other peoples property destruction and shopping (looting) spree should give AG holder and his taxpayer wasting army of FBI agents and lawyers a chance to drum up his Mississippi Burning moment.
 
2014-08-21 09:21:49 AM  

TeamEd: alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer."
"In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.
// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you.
/// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.
//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.


I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.
 
2014-08-21 09:21:49 AM  

Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)


So to summarize, the only people we have who are giving Wilson's version of the encounter are:

1) Someone at the police department, who is likely friends with Wilson
2) Wilson

The way we keep hearing the narrative, it's as if there were a dozen or so different people backing him up, and they were all eyewitnesses. So far we have what amounts to anonymous callers who are telling the story second (or third or fourth) hand. And they're reporting this with a straight face?
 
2014-08-21 09:22:34 AM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: TeamEd: alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer."
"In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.
// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you.
/// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.
//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.

I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.


Shoot the guy and be done with it.
 
2014-08-21 09:25:07 AM  

LazyMedia: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Yeah, and those people ARE media, and have press passes. The people gettting kicked out of the media pool for not having credentials are not the ones with legit blogs.


Define "legit"
 
2014-08-21 09:25:48 AM  

Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.


Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.
 
2014-08-21 09:25:52 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.


Odds are you / they arnt one of them.
 
2014-08-21 09:26:48 AM  

Launch Code: The democrat protestors probably ran out of stuff to steal. This break in the other peoples property destruction and shopping (looting) spree should give AG holder and his taxpayer wasting army of FBI agents and lawyers a chance to drum up his Mississippi Burning moment.


Wow. All that in two sentences.
 
2014-08-21 09:26:55 AM  
The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing.  The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all.  They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead.  No talking, just shooting.  That is all kinds of farked up.
 
2014-08-21 09:27:47 AM  

Skraeling: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Odds are you / they arnt one of them.


Which has nothing to do with anything.
 
2014-08-21 09:28:10 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Yeah, and those people ARE media, and have press passes. The people gettting kicked out of the media pool for not having credentials are not the ones with legit blogs.

Define "legit"


A blog with enough revenue to warrant having a lawyer.
 
2014-08-21 09:29:11 AM  

TeamEd: alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer."
"In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.
// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you.
/// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sur ...


A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

i635.photobucket.com
 
2014-08-21 09:30:16 AM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: / This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.
// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you.
/// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.
//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.


I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.


There are a lot of reasons why a guy can be so disturbed that he's acting crazed in public with a knife in hand. Mental illness can happen to you or me or a family member. I'm white, so I'm less likely to get shot, but I can't say I'm immune from a public breakdown some time in my future.
/ If that guy with the knife someone you knew or were close to, you wouldn't want that.
// The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.
 
2014-08-21 09:32:19 AM  

TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.


I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-08-21 09:32:21 AM  
In attempt to answer the question who is a journalist and who is not, well, here is something to think about: There are many professions where you need some kind of formal license by some kind of government entity, be it on the federal, state or local level. To be a doctor or lawyer you need a license and be recognized by your state. To do hair and nails you need some kind of state license. To be a tattoo artist you need a license. To drive a taxi in many metro areas you need to get a local business license. In some places to be a fast food worker you need a "food handler's card," as some local governments in Southern California require. The one thing you do not need any formal license to do is being a journalist and/or owning a press (whether that press is television, print or blog), because a free press is guaranteed in our Constitution.
 
2014-08-21 09:34:47 AM  

BlindRaise: What would you call a night with only 6 arrests in Chicago?


In a metropolis of more than 2.5 million people I'd call it surprising, regardless of where in the world you are.
 
2014-08-21 09:36:12 AM  

theflatline: A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.


And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.
 
2014-08-21 09:36:56 AM  

Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?
Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"
Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?
Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?
These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'
/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.
// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows.
/// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.

I have no idea. Considering what I've seen from cops in the area, I suspect that deescalation isn't exactly a priority around there.


You could have left your comments at "I have no idea".  Reading your shiat its apparent that you have no clue about these issues.  If you think its so easy to make perfect choices, go apply to become a cop.  Show us how it should be done.
 
2014-08-21 09:37:49 AM  

JulieAzel626: In attempt to answer the question who is a journalist and who is not, well, here is something to think about: There are many professions where you need some kind of formal license by some kind of government entity, be it on the federal, state or local level. To be a doctor or lawyer you need a license and be recognized by your state. To do hair and nails you need some kind of state license. To be a tattoo artist you need a license. To drive a taxi in many metro areas you need to get a local business license. In some places to be a fast food worker you need a "food handler's card," as some local governments in Southern California require. The one thing you do not need any formal license to do is being a journalist and/or owning a press (whether that press is television, print or blog), because a free press is guaranteed in our Constitution.


Reasonable restrictions.

There should at least be a background check and a 10 day waiting period to be a journalist.
And no journalisting on school grounds or a government building and your film has to be in a separate compartment than the camera while travelling....
 
2014-08-21 09:39:03 AM  

stovepipe: The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing.  The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all.  They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead.  No talking, just shooting.  That is all kinds of farked up.


And if you believe thats what actually happened, then you are an idiot.  Nobody is even questioning this shooting because it was legitimate and appropriate use of force.
 
2014-08-21 09:39:04 AM  

LazyMedia: If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.


I'm not so sure.  A whole lot of timely reporting is coming out of schmucks with cameras.  The teargassing of various media groups, that chucklehead cop threatening to kill a kid leap to mind.  CNN didn't bring you that stuff.  Bloggers did.
 
2014-08-21 09:40:09 AM  

Litterbox: stovepipe: The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing.  The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all.  They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead.  No talking, just shooting.  That is all kinds of farked up.

And if you believe thats what actually happened, then you are an idiot.  Nobody is even questioning this shooting because it was legitimate and appropriate use of force.


In before he was paying for the cigars he was whittling a block of wood for a merit badge
 
2014-08-21 09:41:17 AM  
So now that we know the cop got a skull fracture, only one question remains:  Who should I loot and throw molotov cocktails at?
 
2014-08-21 09:41:33 AM  

TeamEd: theflatline: A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.


WTF do you know about police training?  Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone.  If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it.  If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them.  Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.
 
2014-08-21 09:42:34 AM  

cchris_39: So now that we know the cop got a skull fracture, only one question remains:  Who should I loot and throw molotov cocktails at?


Rich people, and Hillary Clinton.
 
2014-08-21 09:42:57 AM  

Dansker: BlindRaise: What would you call a night with only 6 arrests in Chicago?

In a metropolis of more than 2.5 million people I'd call it surprising, regardless of where in the world you are.


Which is about the total population of the greater stl area actually
 
2014-08-21 09:44:23 AM  

Litterbox: TeamEd: theflatline: A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.

WTF do you know about police training?  Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone.  If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it.  If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them.  Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.


He is Canadian, they probably have some sort of video game there where you play as a mounted policed rescuing cats from trees.

The mean streets of Ottawa.
 
2014-08-21 09:45:08 AM  

Litterbox: stovepipe: The huffingtonpost video is rather disturbing.  The "knife wielding" man did not appear to be threatening the officers at all.  They just rolled up, got out, and shot him dead.  No talking, just shooting.  That is all kinds of farked up.

And if you believe thats what actually happened, then you are an idiot.  Nobody is even questioning this shooting because it was legitimate and appropriate use of force.


You know how I know you didn't watch the farking video?
 
2014-08-21 09:45:32 AM  

mjohnson71: A blog with enough revenue to warrant having a lawyer.


If money defines journalistic legitimacy, kindly explain CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, The Daily Mail, The New York Post and the Washington Times.
 
2014-08-21 09:45:51 AM  

Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.


What's a "media area"? The 1st Amendment makes the entire country a "media area".

/Free Speech Zones
//What!?
 
2014-08-21 09:46:23 AM  

Litterbox: WTF do you know about police training? Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone. If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it. If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them. Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.


Now I do have some idea, because i watched the vid. How many people did you find it necessary to blow away within seconds of encountering them during your 20 years as a cop?
 
2014-08-21 09:47:19 AM  

mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]


There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2014-08-21 09:51:18 AM  

mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.


Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.
 
2014-08-21 09:51:36 AM  

TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.


Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country
 
2014-08-21 09:52:14 AM  

MyRandomName: 1) do you know of a substance called adrenaline?


Yes, but considering the first group of officers arrived 4 minutes later with a supervisor arriving a minute after that, and the fact they already had the scene taped off and secure by the time the video begins, I have to assume he's coming down off any high by that point. I'm also skeptical that the person who took the video actually witnessed the shooting for the same reason; she said she saw it happen then ran and got her phone from the other room and came right back to start filming. I highly doubt the video starts ~30 seconds after the shooting like her timeline claims (unless a portion of it where they're securing the crime scene is part of the video file and the news media just felt that portion was boring and decided not to film it; this video went directly to the media and isn't a youtube upload like the rest.)

2) tin foil hat warning please.

I don't really see that as a conspiracy theory despite how long-winded my explanation was. We have two nearly identical accounts of the officer's version of events. The one that came out earlier has been deemed a fake but the one that came out later has been deemed authentic. It seems likely to me that for them to be so similar (including having the same phrases Brown supposedly shouted at Wilson before rushing him, something that I hadn't seen claimed before the Facebook post) means that if one is true the other one likely is too. If the Facebook story is legit, we have to question the accuracy of some of it (particularly that Brown had gotten 35 feet away when Wilson got out of the SUV yelling "freeze" causing him to turn and charge yet somehow hit the ground 35 feet away from the squad car and that Michael Brown was within a couple feet of him attempting to spear tackle him when he finally landed the kill shot despite ballistics suggesting he was 15+ feet away). If Josie's story is false, then we have to question the accuracy of the media's inside sources.

Jocktopus: Apparently it wasn't Wilson; in the followup to last Friday's press conference, the Ferguson PD chief specifically said that he had taken a lot of questions about the other officers ine videos, and Darren Wilson was not the officer in those videos.


That video wasn't released to the public until Monday but according to her the officers took a copy of the video from her but didn't released it even though she wanted it released. I assume that means that he included even unreleased videos that police had found did not show Wilson but I feel that is a relevant point to make.
 
2014-08-21 09:52:55 AM  

Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)


1) I don't believe these injuries that are being proported are all that severe. Now think about this: If you can release a video showing Brown possibly robbing a store, then why not show any photos or details of Wilson's visit to the hospital. I know in that area, the closest major hospital would be Christian Hospital NW. Obviously, they are private and can't release records, but FPD would damn certain have that info. Plus they've been sitting on that rumor for days now, with no release - it would've made more sense to release that ASAP to quell rumors.

2) All of the people who gave info that could be potentially negative to Wilson have been publically named or have given interviews to the press. People arguing for Wilson? Facebook pages and random call in shows. I mean if "Josie" can go in and call some radio show, she can go ahead all call the FBI anonymously as well.
 
2014-08-21 09:56:39 AM  

theflatline: Litterbox: TeamEd: theflatline: A crazed person saying shoot me or kill can be an imminent threat to attack because it shows they do not give a damn about their life so why should they give a damn about anyone elses

Here is a pic of a cop in Colombia who was trying to calm down a crazy guy, who was also saying "kill me I dont care" where do you think the knife ended up, in the cop.

And that looks like a good example of why cops need to be trained to properly assess the threat posed by any individual. Perhaps they did everything right in the recent St. Louis situation, who knows? There's video up thread, but I'm not particularly inclined to watch it this morning.

WTF do you know about police training?  Ive been a cop over 20 years and when facing someone with a weapon, you dont try to "properly assess" someone.  If they are a risk to themselves or others, you deal with it.  If they come at you with the knife, you shoot to stop them.  Instead of monday morning quarterbacking, why dont you apply at your local police department so that we can benefit from your vast tactical experience.

He is Canadian, they probably have some sort of video game there where you play as a mounted policed rescuing cats from trees.

The mean streets of Ottawa.


There are lots of times where cops are justified in shooting someone. There also appears to be a lot of times when cops shoot when they do not know how to engage mentally disturbed individuals. Up here, this case is currently big news exactly for our cops inability to deescalate a man with knife situation.

Police arrived at the scene. At the front of the vehicle, Constable James Forcillo of the called for a multiple times, believing the situation "could be contained". According to videos of the incident, police asked Yatim to drop the knife and warned him not to "take one step in this direction". Nine shots were subsequently fired by police; three initially, followed by an additional six about five seconds later. Approximately 30 seconds later, a Taser was deployed on Yatim by a second officer.

In Canada, that gets a cop charged with second degree murder.
 
2014-08-21 09:58:09 AM  

JAGChem82: Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)

1) I ...


Brown robbed the store, lawyers have released statements, Dorian Johnson released a statement he did, and then there is the police report where a cop actually went to the store to see what happened.

You need to rethink "possibly"
 
2014-08-21 09:58:11 AM  

TeamEd: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: / This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.
// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you.
/// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredictable, sure, but we pay cops to handle unpredictable situations.
//// Instead of shouting, threatening with their guns, closing distance and ultimately shooting cops should create a perimeter, maintain their distance, talk to the guy and generally be a calming presence while waiting him out.


I bet you think prisons are to harsh also? To many people in America want to coddle criminals. Shot the guy and be done with it.

There are a lot of reasons why a guy can be so disturbed that he's acting crazed in public with a knife in hand. Mental illness can happen to you or me or a family member. I'm white, so I'm less likely to get shot, but I can't say I'm immune from a public breakdown some time in my future.
/ If that guy with the knife someone you knew or were close to, you wouldn't want that.
// The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.


Why play the race card? Running around with a weapon and making threats won't end up good for anybody.
 
2014-08-21 09:58:52 AM  

Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.


"If we can't get it right, NOBODY gets to"?
 
2014-08-21 09:59:43 AM  

Gunny Highway: LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

[www.adbusters.org image 118x191]

We spend all this time biatching about the media.  People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong.  Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this?  That seems odd to me considering your handle.


If I thought the problem with news media today is that they don't do enough breathless, sensationalist 24/7 coversage of single events without providing background or invastigative journalism, I would agree more with your point.
 
2014-08-21 10:01:28 AM  

mjohnson71: Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.


Matthew Yglesias had a great article about how if anything good comes out of this mess it's highly likely that civic participation will increase in the area. May not fix any sort of perceived wrongs but might go a long way to give people a feeling that they have a say in what goes down around them.
 
2014-08-21 10:02:38 AM  

Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.


No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.
 
2014-08-21 10:05:20 AM  

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.


Arianna Huffington made a few bucks from her blog
 
2014-08-21 10:08:54 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.


I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.
 
2014-08-21 10:13:43 AM  

TeamEd: In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.


It used to be that way here too, but that sweet sweet terror money has to go somewheres
 
2014-08-21 10:14:49 AM  

Grungehamster: mjohnson71: Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Matthew Yglesias had a great article about how if anything good comes out of this mess it's highly likely that civic participation will increase in the area. May not fix any sort of perceived wrongs but might go a long way to give people a feeling that they have a say in what goes down around them.


When only white people vote you get the guy who looks like the assistant manager of the body shop at the local Chevy dealership.

cdn1.vox-cdn.com
 
2014-08-21 10:15:37 AM  

mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]


Violent crime has been dropping all over the Western world since the mid '90s. An aging population probably has more to do with it than "the American system".
 
2014-08-21 10:16:35 AM  

Dansker: Gunny Highway: LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

[www.adbusters.org image 118x191]

We spend all this time biatching about the media.  People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong.  Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this?  That seems odd to me considering your handle.

If I thought the problem with news media today is that they don't do enough breathless, sensationalist 24/7 coversage of single events without providing background or invastigative journalism, I would agree more with your point.


If only one of them does valuable work it is worth it in my opinion.
 
2014-08-21 10:17:22 AM  

Dansker: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.


Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc
 
2014-08-21 10:18:37 AM  

kindms: Dansker: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc


Is Dan Carlin a "blogger?"  He seems to take his work seriously.

/I am a fan
//I realize not everyone is
 
2014-08-21 10:18:50 AM  
CSB:  I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc.  Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain.  During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope.  Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers.  I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital.  I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture.  Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell.  Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture.  I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education.  He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.


In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson


That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.
 
2014-08-21 10:20:36 AM  

TeamEd: In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.


And that's why those "sane" countries are full of mentally disturbed individuals.
 
2014-08-21 10:22:13 AM  
Grungehamster: that Michael Brown was within a couple feet of him attempting to spear tackle him when he finally landed the kill shot despite ballistics suggesting he was 15+ feet away

Whoops; was mixing up people's personal explanations of how he could get shot at that angle (that he was jumping mid-dive into Wilson while he was killed) with the supposedly fake Facebook profile version of events. Here is the Facebook entry in question (not a Facebook link; screen grabs from a fellow Farker).

The problems I had with that are the order of events say that Michael Brown was 35 feet away when he stopped and turned around when Wilson initially began pursuit by getting out and yelling "freeze" (which who knows, could just be inartful phrasing) and the claim that the robbery report came through after he initially stopped Brown and Johnson but was still watching them because he felt they were behaving suspiciously (at first the police chief said Wilson didn't know he was a suspect during the stop, but later clarified that he only stopped Brown and Johnson for being in the street and noticed the cigars in his hand while driving off that he first connected the robbery he had been notified of to the two individuals he just stopped.
 
2014-08-21 10:23:35 AM  

Dansker: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Violent crime has been dropping all over the Western world since the mid '90s. An aging population probably has more to do with it than "the American system".


That and abortion.
 
2014-08-21 10:23:56 AM  

Dansker: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country


Good find, that's an interesting read.

Danish police have 1996-2007 on average 3.5 persons injured and killed a year. In Finland, the average was 0.2 deaths per year and in the period 1996-2006, they only killed two. Police in Denmark has a total of 11 people killed in the same period.

Let's do some back of the envelope math.
Denmark has a population of 5.5 million people. At 11 people fatally shot by police in a ten year span, that's a rate of 1.1 per 5.5 million per year or  0.02 fatal police shootings per 100,000.
In the US, no one keeps meticulous track of police shootings, but the number of 'justifiable homicides' is almost certainly more than 400 annually.
Of those, almost all are shootings.
To be conservative, let's assume that 400 number is on the money and account for a moderate annual increase to make a guesstimate of around ~350 fatal police shootings per year on average for the period of '96 to '06.
The US has a population of 310 million people. That gives a rate of 350 per 310 million per year or 0.12 fatal police shootings per 100,000.

/ So, Denmark has something in the range of 6 times fewer fatal police shootings per year than the US. And, Danes appear to get upset when their cops shoot mentally ill people. So yes, I'd say that makes Denmark a relatively sane country.
 
2014-08-21 10:24:27 AM  

p the boiler: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Arianna Huffington made a few bucks from her blog


Also, it seems that just about every actual journalist/photographer seems to be running a twitter feed/blog of some sort.
 
2014-08-21 10:24:31 AM  

Gunny Highway: Dansker: Gunny Highway: LazyMedia: Dinobot: Twitter was reporting that one of the CNN guys was snitching out Indy media to the cops so they would be removed and arrested from the Media area.

If you don't have a press pass, you're not "indy media," you're a tourist. Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

[www.adbusters.org image 118x191]

We spend all this time biatching about the media.  People think the media is failing them so they go out, successfully or unsuccessfully, to try to right that wrong.  Do you really have a problem with that, especially in a situation like this?  That seems odd to me considering your handle.

If I thought the problem with news media today is that they don't do enough breathless, sensationalist 24/7 coversage of single events without providing background or invastigative journalism, I would agree more with your point.

If only one of them does valuable work it is worth it in my opinion.


For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.
 
2014-08-21 10:24:33 AM  

Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.


There seems to be a Federal investigation beginning into a "pattern" of civil rights abuses. Historically these take some time (often a few years) but result in findings and a report outlining changes. Said changes often include rather wide-sweeping alterations including re-training of LEO in conjunction with civil rights experts and locals, changes in personnel and so on.

I am content, now, to wait for facts to come out as "evidence" rather than leaked info, bad web links, tweets, etc - The most important thing going on now is what the Feds are doing behind the scenes. I am not anti-LE but taking some weird glee that this Department is undergoing the equivalent of an audit by the IRS - only worse.

Don't be surprised if there is no Dept there in two years or so - if nothing else, and absent coming law suits, their overtime has likely broken the budget of a municipality with a small tax base. There might be little else to do than an agreement with another area to take over, expanding the LE hiring pool with an eye towards greater diversity.

All good things
 
2014-08-21 10:27:46 AM  

newton: "The police confiscated no handguns after removing three the night before."

Yes, three guns- all very new in appearance, all the same make and model.
Kinda funny... looking.

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930/videos/599 05 403


If you're looking for a throwdown gun, you go cheap. HiPoints for everyone!!!!!!
 
2014-08-21 10:28:10 AM  
Gunny Highway:

Is Dan Carlin a "blogger?"  He seems to take his work seriously.

/I am a fan
//I realize not everyone is


I can see Common Sense as a blog.  Well, as an opinion blog at the least.   Hardcore History however is just damn good entertainment.
 
2014-08-21 10:28:26 AM  
alizeran:

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

"The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets."

See, this is how the hysterical lame stream media presents propaganda in order to rile up the sheepel.

That guy hit by a "barrage of bullets" was only shot nine times. Before being handcuffed.
 
2014-08-21 10:28:32 AM  

Dansker: For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.


What is the harm of letting them stand in the media pen.  Why is there a media pen at all?
 
2014-08-21 10:28:33 AM  

kindms: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc


Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.
 
2014-08-21 10:28:35 AM  

mjohnson71: Launch Code: The democrat protestors probably ran out of stuff to steal. This break in the other peoples property destruction and shopping (looting) spree should give AG holder and his taxpayer wasting army of FBI agents and lawyers a chance to drum up his Mississippi Burning moment.

Wow. All that nothing in two sentences.


It IS too early for that much foul air
 
2014-08-21 10:28:51 AM  
who cares?
town full of professional victims gets exactly what it deserves
story at 11
 
2014-08-21 10:30:59 AM  

Gunny Highway:
Is Dan Carlin a "blogger?"  He seems to take his work seriously.

/I am a fan
//I realize not everyone is


Don't know him, will check him out, thanks for the tip.
 
2014-08-21 10:31:58 AM  

TeamEd: Did they engage the man with their guns trained on him, or ready at their sides?
Did they threaten him with, "or we will shoot you?"
Did they close distance in an aggressive stance?
Did they engage him in a speaking voice, or start at a shouting tone?
These things and more are common cop behaviours that can escalate a situation with a mentally disturbed individual. Someone who previous may have not had a real intention to commit 'suicide by cop,' may see all that from the cops at start to act all 'fark it, go ahead an shoot me.'
/ De-escalation is about being a calming presence, not being a threatening presence and then shooting when he reacts badly.
// This case may have been handled perfectly, who knows.
/// If you approached a nervous horse shouting and acting threatening, then shot it when it got aggressive with you, people wouldn't say "good job, you had no choice," they'd call you an idiot.



It's considered good practice in law enforcement to warn (when feasible) that deadly force will be used before it's actually used. Also you have to make sure that the person hears and understands your instructions, which is why something a bit louder than a normal "speaking voice" will generally be used.

I understand your concerns, but the way to deal with mentally ill people is to give them the proper treatment before they snap; requiring policemen to become amateur therapists isn't going to help matters. I've actually taken a few psychology courses, I know people who've worked in mental health and I've read up on things like schizophrenia etc. to satisfy my own personal curiosity, but even I wouldn't be thinking about trying anything exotic if faced a potentially mentally ill person wielding a weapon, the only thing that would be on my mind would be self-defense on an extremely basic level (and perhaps defense of others, depending on the situation).
 
2014-08-21 10:33:10 AM  

Dansker: Gunny Highway:
Is Dan Carlin a "blogger?"  He seems to take his work seriously.

/I am a fan
//I realize not everyone is

Don't know him, will check him out, thanks for the tip.


Hardcore History is an segmented audio book podcast he hosts.

Common Sense is a current affair project he hosts.  He put one out about MO yesterday.

I dont always agree with him but he is thought provoking and I enjoy listening to him think.
 
2014-08-21 10:36:07 AM  

TeamEd: Dansker: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country

Good find, that's an interesting read.

Danish police have 1996-2007 on average 3.5 persons injured and killed a year. In Finland, the average was 0.2 deaths per year and in the period 1996-2006, they only killed two. Police in Denmark has a total of 11 people killed in the same period.

Let's do some back of the envelope math.
Denmark has a population of 5.5 million people. At 11 people fatally shot by police in a ten year span, that's a rate of 1.1 per 5.5 million per year or  0.02 fatal police shootings per 100,000.
In the US, no one keeps meticulous track of police shootings, but the number of 'justifiable homicides' is almost certainly more than 400 annually.
Of those, almost all are shootings.
To be conservative, let's assume that 400 number is on the money and account for a moderate annual increase to make a guesstimate of around ~350 fatal police shootings per year on average for the period of '96 to '06.
The US has a population of 310 million people. That gives a rate of 350 per 310 million per year or 0.12 fatal police shootings per 100,000.

/ So, Denmark has something in the range of 6 ...


In a surpising defence of US police, there is a shiatload more firearms in the States, so your cops probably find themselves staring down the barrels of guns a lot more often.
 
2014-08-21 10:37:03 AM  

Grungehamster: Two updates that are interesting:

1) More national media is claiming that sources close to the investigation have told them Wilson suffered a severe facial injury and needed to go to the hospital for his injuries. If we assume that the video of him pacing at the scene is actually of him and that these sources are true I think we'll be getting into a major argument of the definition of "severe" (to be that comfortable to show no distress would likely make it a hairline fracture I would have to think.)

2) Remember the "Josie" phone call that claimed to be from Wilson's friend and gave his side of the story? I thought the Facebook images that have been floating around telling a similar story were likely made by someone hoping to spread Josie's account with a bit more authority but which had some glaring inaccuracies not in Josie's story (like that Brown was charging and was only two or three feet from Wilson when he put the final bullet in his head despite no GPR) that betrayed it wasn't true. Turns out the media not only confirmed that the Facebook account was fake (well, to be fair, they confirmed that it wasn't set up until after Wilson's name was announced publicly; it's technically possible his Weeners to his name being announced was to delete everything before the day of the announcement to prevent controversy but then decided to write up a giant post on his side of the story despite his department purposely refusing to give any firm details of Wilson's version of events until the investigation is complete but it would be really, really, stupid.) However, the more interesting thing is that the Josie call happened several days after the Facebook post; despite CNN calling the Facebook post a fake they claimed to have confirmed with anonymous sources close to the investigation that Josie's version is basically Wilson's version of events, which has interesting implications (though very different ones if they both turn out to be true or false.)


I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.
 
2014-08-21 10:37:22 AM  

mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.


Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?
That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?
(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)
 
2014-08-21 10:39:08 AM  

Gunny Highway: Dansker: For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.

What is the harm of letting them stand in the media pen.  Why is there a media pen at all?


Ostenisibly to keep journalists out of harms way, and it's a safe bet that it's not something the media asked for. But since it's there and being enforced, it can only physically hold so many people.
Besides, if you're independent, non-acredited media, the police can't tell you to stay in the media pen, so for farks sake take anvantage of that and report from the frontline or behind the scenes instead.
 
2014-08-21 10:40:45 AM  

LazyMedia: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Yeah, and those people ARE media, and have press passes. The people gettting kicked out of the media pool for not having credentials are not the ones with legit blogs.


I was inspired to look up the top earners.  Jenna Marbles isn't media (mostly commentary/comedy) and she's 6th at 4.3 mil.  I don't know if that's a yearly number or simply the money she's already earned just through the number of views she has, probably the latter.
/not too shabby
 
2014-08-21 10:41:21 AM  

mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.


Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.
 
2014-08-21 10:41:42 AM  
I would just like to add, in reference to all my previous posts in this thread, that I really hate typing with an on-screen keyboard.
 
2014-08-21 10:47:27 AM  

b0rg9: Bowen: "I want to protest this injustice...but I can't find my poncho."

Is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?


It's a Romney trash bag.
 
2014-08-21 10:57:23 AM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: TeamEd: alizeran: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

Video is first the official police account, then amateur video of the event. Not casting judgement, just putting it out there.

Don't really want to watch that today. But I thought this was instructive of cops' attitudes:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," [St. Louis Police Chief Sam] Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer."
"In a lethal situation, they used lethal force," he added.

/ This is an attitude that's taken for granted. It says that when the cop perceives a threat to his person it is reasonable if he responds with deadly force.
// The problem is that attitude removes the burden on that same cop to properly analyse the threatening situation. Just because someone has a knife, doesn't mean he wants to stab you.
/// To me -- and again, this situation may have been unavoidable -- a crazed person saying "shoot me now, kill me now," is neither an imminent threat to attack nor an invitation for cops to shoot. That sounds like a mentally disturbed individual who's struggling with something. He's unpredicta ...


Ooh, judge dredd world, here we come! fark the courts systems, fark the constitution, if a cop thinks you're dangerous, why put effort into taking someone into custody when you can just execute them on the spot and scrape them up so much more easily.
 
2014-08-21 11:00:51 AM  

King Something: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

[img2.timeinc.net image 300x400]
[4.bp.blogspot.com image 479x604]

Usually.

/these guys had guns, btw. slightly more lethal than knives, I think


Lougher was subdued by citizens, one of which was already shot, before the police even arrived. Unless you are contending that the police would have just negotiated with him and allowed him to go on shooting people..

James Holmes was confronted as he was putting his guns in his trunk, and immediately complied with the officers confronting him. There is absolutely zero evidence that he resisted arrest in any way..

Do you really believe that the officers that intercepted him would not have shot him if he raised his AR15 at them, you know, cuz he a white guy and all?? Is that really what you think?
 
2014-08-21 11:01:51 AM  

keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.


There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.
 
2014-08-21 11:03:25 AM  

parasol: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?
That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?
(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)


A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was physically assigned a Florissant address, we didn't vote for mayor or any other city functions. There's a reason why citizens say they're from North County - it's all one and the same in effect.
 
2014-08-21 11:06:52 AM  

keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.


It's part of a larger pattern we're seeing in major cities around the country: gentrification is driving up property values in former low income urban neighborhoods, which is pricing poor, mostly minority renters out of the market. As a result they're ending up being pushed into the next cheapest option that still put them in the major metro area (for work, friends, access to locations they enjoy, etc.) is the exact same older suburban communities that sprung up due to "White Flight" in the latter half of the 20th century.

I should be clear this isn't a value judgement: that lower income neighborhoods are becoming higher income neighborhoods which is resulting in higher income neighborhoods turning into lower income neighborhoods isn't bad, it's just a change we have to adjust to in our stereotypical view of where poor people with limited means reside. Not that our stereotypes were ever that great; during this entire process rural areas usually still fared far worse than urban or suburban ones.
 
2014-08-21 11:08:33 AM  
It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look  much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.
 
2014-08-21 11:14:20 AM  

JAGChem82: parasol: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?
That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?
(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was ...


That sounds a lot like a failure on the part of the local mayor and council. Thanks for the info.
I live in a muni so small it was left out of the phone book once, but we have deep connections as a neighborhood.
 
2014-08-21 11:14:29 AM  
As a follow up: Contrast that to where I live now. By land mass Clarke County, GA is the smallest county in the state (out of 159), but Athens is the fifth largest city in the state. I would say that the land mass of Athens would cover about at least 10 unique municipalities in that area alone. So to someone like myself who moved from the northwest to southeast side of Athens, you'd be moving from Ferguson to Jennings or Hazelwood, for example, just based on distance.
 
2014-08-21 11:16:23 AM  

Dansker: kindms: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.


except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"
 
2014-08-21 11:16:23 AM  

TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]


Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.
 
2014-08-21 11:20:49 AM  

iremo: All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.


What's wrong with letting the grand jury to their job? If there is clear evidence of Wilson's facial injury + corroboration from witnesses that be was bum-rushed, why would you drag Wilson through a trial? What if he really was in fear for his life and feels like a pile of shiat about it? What does a trial accomplish if there's a 99.99% chance he will be found innocent?
 
2014-08-21 11:23:33 AM  

mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.


I hate to be that racist guy, but Maplewood is about 75% white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_Missouri

Ferguson can forget about copying Maplewood.
 
2014-08-21 11:23:37 AM  

Dansker: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

I'll pass. Not that important to me.  I thought you might have a couple names you could share off the top of your head.

In the time it took you to post this you could have just looked it up.

Do you not also see that in the time you posted "Look it up" you could have shared a couple of examples?

That might mean something to me if I cared whether you know or not.

Really though, this is all time better spent by you educating yourself.

I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.


538 was that way.
 
2014-08-21 11:23:43 AM  

kindms: Dansker: kindms: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"


The Guardian is mainstream media, and he mostly wrote columns for Salon and Guardian, in other words, told us his opinion. Opinion and personal analysis is not what I find lacking in news media.
But fine, that's half an example.
 
2014-08-21 11:24:53 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]

Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.


the traditional argument is that abortion being legal has reduced the crime rates. I think it was made popular in that freakanomics book or similar. Essentially saying less unwanted children = less crime etc
 
2014-08-21 11:26:11 AM  

Pull the Plug on Grannie: iremo: All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

What's wrong with letting the grand jury to their job? If there is clear evidence of Wilson's facial injury + corroboration from witnesses that be was bum-rushed, why would you drag Wilson through a trial? What if he really was in fear for his life and feels like a pile of shiat about it? What does a trial accomplish if there's a 99.99% chance he will be found innocent?


Good question. We can wait for their findings.
 
2014-08-21 11:26:27 AM  

dr_blasto: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

538 was that way.


True, but with a very narrow focus, IIRC.
 
2014-08-21 11:26:57 AM  

Dansker: kindms: Dansker: kindms: Dansker:
I don't care how much money people make. Can you name a blogger who writes informative background articles and features based on extensive, independent research? I've been looking for one for years. I've mostly found people who quote news articles and tell us their opinions.

Glenn Greewald was an independent blogger. He was independent when working for Salon and the Guardian if i recall correctly. I think most of the folks working at the intercept started out similar as well. Jeremy Scahill albeit a photog etc

Being a high profile journalist working for the Guardian is not being an independent blogger or a representative of "new media". The Guardian is about as old media as you can get.

except prior to working for the Guardian that is exactly what he was and if you recall after the snowden leaks was still being disparaged by the MSM as a "blogger"

The Guardian is mainstream media, and he mostly wrote columns for Salon and Guardian, in other words, told us his opinion. Opinion and personal analysis is not what I find lacking in news media.
But fine, that's half an example.


Ugh. he wrote books prior to working with salon. He only worked with the Guardian for about a year before moving on to be at the intercept. I thought your question was what bloggers have made it big. he was and has
 
2014-08-21 11:30:14 AM  

kindms: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: TeamEd: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

There are many possible reasons for the essentially global decrease in crime rates (I'll get to that in a sec), but most studies suggest that "tough on crime" approaches have at best a negligible effect on reducing crime.
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/fact-sheets/2013/1 0/ 08/prison-time-served-and-recidivism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/24/making-pr is on-worse-doesnt-reduce-crime-it-increases-it/
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/gendreau.pdf

A study by a Canadian criminologist Paul Gendreau brought together the results of 50 different studies of the deterrent effect of imprisonment involving over 300,000 offenders. The report said: "None of the analyses found imprisonment reduced recidivism. The recidivism rate for offenders who were imprisoned as opposed to given a community sanction was similar. In addition, longer sentences were not associated with reduced recidivism. In fact the opposite was found. Longer sentences were associated with a 3% increase in recidivism. This finding suggests some support for the theory that prison may serve as a 'school for crime' for some offenders".

The point here is that crime rates have decreased at best independently from prison policies.

As for why crime rates have gone down, who knows? This isn't as far fetched as it first sounds:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x436]

Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I'm totally serious.

the traditional argument is that abortion being legal has reduced the crime rates. I think it was made popular in that freakanomics book or similar. Essentially ...


I agree.  I didn't mean to suggest there is one single reason, but I've never seen anybody legitimately make a case for video games.  But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX and play some Madden or Call of Duty.  They can play with friends.  They get a sense of accomplishment, which they need at that age.  They're not out looking for things to do.
 
2014-08-21 11:33:57 AM  

iremo: It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look  much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.


The other side of this story is that a gentle natured teen was found jaywalking by a racist cop.

The racist cop made him raise his hands in the air, then shoot him anyways, in front of many witnesses in the middle of the daylight.

The racist cop had been in many dangerous situations before, and had spent 8 years working in a minority neighborhood without ever once firing his weapon....... but, he felt today was a good day to randomly pick a teenager to execute.

The shot fire inside the officer's car probably didn't even have anything to do with Michael Brown.

/Assumptions make us look stupid. Knock it off.
 
2014-08-21 11:38:52 AM  

Dictatorial_Flair: You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.


You expect him to wait for the Musketeer Squad to arrive?
So they can shoot him with muskets.
Because getting into a swordfight would be stupid, that's why they have the muskets.
 
2014-08-21 11:42:03 AM  

mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]


Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do  not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.
 
2014-08-21 11:42:44 AM  

CheatCommando: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do  not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.


Err. Do not have our incarceration rate. Moar coffee needed.
 
2014-08-21 11:43:49 AM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX


I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.
 
2014-08-21 11:50:34 AM  

Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.


The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.
 
2014-08-21 11:50:59 AM  

mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.


We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.
 
2014-08-21 11:52:28 AM  

firefly212: A good night would be a night when all the bad white police in Missouri are fired quit, when non-lethal weapons are only used against actual threats, and deadly force is only used as an absolute last resort. That was a quiet night... not a good night.


Somebody had to do it.
 
2014-08-21 11:52:53 AM  

TheAgeOfEgos: CSB:  I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc.  Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain.  During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope.  Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers.  I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital.  I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture.  Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell.  Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture.  I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education.  He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.


In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson


That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.



LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.
 
2014-08-21 11:54:06 AM  

keypusher: mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.

I hate to be that racist guy, but Maplewood is about 75% white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_Missouri
Ferguson can forget about copying Maplewood.


I know that; I live there. But it's not a bad template for turning around an inner ring suburb. Or are you saying that once a suburb has gone black, they'll never go back?
 
2014-08-21 11:55:01 AM  

iremo: It's hard to see why, if Wilson was badly hurt, the police would keep that under wraps. That makes the cop's side of the story look  much better. It would gain them a lot of support, even more than showing the cigar theft video did. So why would we not have heard about this from any official source? It's possible that he was significantly injured but the police department had a sensible reason not to tell anyone but some bloggers, though it doesn't seem super likely.

(Just like it doesn't seem super likely that a teen who just had an altercation with a cop would run approx 35 feet away, pivot around, and start "bumrushing" back at the officer in what would be essentially a suicide by cop over, at worst, cigar theft.)

(Or super likely that at least three, maybe more witnesses got on the same page about "Let's tell the media he was surrendering!" so quickly.)

All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.


My gut feeling on what happened (and I have nothing to base this on other than feeling it is the option that assumes that the people involved are all reasonable and nobody who was actually there that day is making up their story whole cloth):

Brown robs store (to me it looks less like he got several packs of cigars from behind the counter, dropped some of them in front of the counter, hands back the portion of the cigarettes still in his hands, but grabs the ones he dropped and heads for the door, pushing the employee trying to stop him). Wilson sees them walking in the street and asks them to get off the road. He's about to leave when he notices the cigars and remembers the scanner message about the robbery,

He backs up to ask Brown and Johnson about it, and Brown panics and either attacks the officer or attempts to turn to flee and is grabbed by the collar by the officer, at which point he begins fighting to get away (this is obviously a big difference for most people on who is at fault in this case, but both options seem equally likely to me). Wilson grabs his gun and it discharges; Brown pulls away and runs up the road ~35 feet away in the time it takes Wilson to get out of the vehicle, yell "freeze", and fire a shot that either grazing his arm or is a warning shot that does not touch him.

Brown stops in his tracks and turns around. Officer has a gun on him and he fired while he was fleeing, so trying to escape now would be a bad decision. He moves towards the officer to give up or at least give the appearance that he was turning himself in (note the witness at the scene who is the basis for the claim he charged didn't say he was running, just that after running away he turned around to head back to the cop). Wilson interpreted this as an aggressive move suggesting he was going to attempt to resume the fight and starts firing. Brown is hit multiple times in the arm, crumpling and putting his hands up to block the shots, The two head shots are at this point; what was once center mass area is now above his neck.

There, an explanation that gels with both what we've seen in the evidence, matches witness accounts (except for Johnson's but he's unreliable since he was Brown's friend and his lawyer has had to repeatedly amend his statement when new evidence has come to light), and doesn't rely on the assumption that either party was completely out of control irrational. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just where I am.
 
2014-08-21 11:58:49 AM  

CheatCommando: mjohnson71: TeamEd: // The USA prison system is completely counter productive. I'm relatively unsympathetic to the prisoners, but the American system absolutely does not reduce crime -- and that should be the goal of any prison system.

I mostly agree. But stats like this don't help our argument.
[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x642]

Stats like that in isolation, perhaps. What has happened to the violent crime rates in countries that do  not have incarceration? If they showed an equivalent drop, then the correlation with the system goes to zero.


I have always said this: It depends on the country's moral compass. Prison in some places is like a halfway house, others a dungeon. Sometimes prison is used to educate, other times to incarcerate.
 
2014-08-21 11:58:54 AM  

Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.


Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.
 
2014-08-21 11:59:02 AM  
I am sure the protesters used up all their vacation time and had to get back to work.
 
2014-08-21 11:59:37 AM  

Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.


It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.
 
2014-08-21 12:00:54 PM  

mjohnson71: Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.


lulz
 
2014-08-21 12:01:15 PM  
I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..
 
2014-08-21 12:02:13 PM  

mjohnson71: Anayalator: mjohnson71: Did anyone see the video of the lone white woman who showed up last night with a sign supporting the officer? The police got her out of there pretty quickly: but not before she got yelled at.

We know that on the internet, it's impossible to know the difference between a person with hateful views and a person lampooning hateful views to make a point. The mods try to be reasonable, and context often matters. We will try and determine what you meant, but that's not always a pass. If your post can be taken one of two ways, and one of those ways can be interpreted as misogynistic, racist, or LGBT bashing, the mods may delete it and could even give you a timeout--even if that wasn't your intent.

Hold on: let me find the article about her protesting in Ferguson and getting hustled out of there quickly.


Here we go:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/20/amid-mo st ly-peaceful-ferguson-protests-a-darren-wilson-supporter-is-attacked/


Earlier, that calm was interrupted about 8:20 p.m. Central time when a woman walked West Florissant Avenue waving a sign that read, "I support Darren Wilson" and shouting, "Y'all need to get your facts straight."

Washington Post reporter DeNeen Brown said someone hit the woman over the head and another grabbed the sign. Police rushed to the scene. And officers put her in a police vehicle and drove away.
"That sign was meant to provoke us. I asked the police why are you letting her protest causing problems over here?" said Tenisha Wheeler, 30, who lives in St. Louis City. She added, "I wouldn't dare go to a rally supporting Wilson with my own self."

Amber Howland, 30, who traveled from Alton, Ill., also saw the incident. "The police walked her past," she said. "I said I'm white I can get through the crowd." I was going to hit this b--. They pushed me away. And ran and put her in a truck."
 
2014-08-21 12:03:18 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot.


We tend to miss things that didn't happen.
 
2014-08-21 12:03:45 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: TheAgeOfEgos: CSB:  I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc.  Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain.  During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope.  Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers.  I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital.  I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture.  Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell.  Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture.  I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education.  He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.


In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson


That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.


LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.


That's been floating around. I thought there was a redlit link yesterday? Something about the cop raised 100K and the Brown family raised 0 or something. Right-wing people really like their cops, even while they're whining about encroaching government and the like. I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of the chick posing with a gun and in front of hobbylobby were all dropping cash in his account.
 
2014-08-21 12:04:19 PM  

dr_blasto: Grungehamster:

I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

 Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.
 
2014-08-21 12:04:24 PM  

BobCumbers: I am sure the protesters used up all their vacation time and had to get back to work.



Your joke about them not having jobs would make more sense if the protests weren't held in the dead of night.


/still wouldn't be funny though
//new material is needed
 
2014-08-21 12:04:44 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..


lolwut
 
2014-08-21 12:06:00 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.


I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.
 
2014-08-21 12:06:27 PM  

WelldeadLink: dr_blasto: Grungehamster: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

 Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.


or the cop authorizes it. Or it is used as evidence to prove the cop was assaulted in some court.
 
2014-08-21 12:09:59 PM  

JAGChem82: parasol: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Cheers, man.  Solid points and thanks for the info.

No problem. St. Louis Farker so I know what's going on.

Supposedly in the main 2012 fall election I think they said the voting rate for Ferguson was something pitiful: like 12 or 14%.

Is it at all possible that part of the low turnout was due to a lack of options in candidates?
That rate is SO low compared to other elections.....why turn out if your choices are "nope" and "nope"?
(not familiar with the area or candidates last go round)

A good bit of the reason for low voter turnout is because in NSTL County, especially for apartment dwellers, is that they really isn't a sense of "living" in Ferguson. You can literally go up the road a mile or two away and be in the following cities: Florissant, Dellwood, Berkeley, Cool Valley, Moline Acres. Plus there is a lot of that area that is considered unincorporated. Technically, I spent my teenage years in "no mans land", although it was ...


I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.
 
2014-08-21 12:10:11 PM  

WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.


It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.
 
2014-08-21 12:11:25 PM  

WelldeadLink: dr_blasto: Grungehamster: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

 Privacy laws say they can't do that without a bunch of paperwork.


Just ask some Chinese or Russian hackers: I'm sure they already have all his medical data.
 
2014-08-21 12:14:36 PM  

mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.



I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.
 
2014-08-21 12:16:59 PM  
Clemkadidlefark

I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

Source? :\
 
2014-08-21 12:17:38 PM  

Dansker: Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.


Pretty good point....... but, we share a lot of things with the Western World.

Cultural changes are a big one that we mostly share.
Increased ADHD (I have no idea why this would help)
Someone already mentioned video games
Obesity (It's rough being a chubby thug)
Erectile Dysfunction (Testosterone?)
Socialism (Better safety nets make criminal behavior less desirable)
Helicopter parenting (I shot BB guns and didn't wear a helmet and knee pads when I rode a bike..... Young people now maybe more adverse to risk taking.)

I'm sure I could invent more reasons if I felt like it.
 
2014-08-21 12:17:56 PM  

SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.


Arianna Huffington?
 
2014-08-21 12:18:09 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.


That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.
 
2014-08-21 12:18:58 PM  

Grungehamster: He backs up to ask Brown and Johnson about it, and Brown panics and either attacks the officer or attempts to turn to flee and is grabbed by the collar by the officer, at which point he begins fighting to get away (this is obviously a big difference for most people on who is at fault in this case, but both options seem equally likely to me). Wilson grabs his gun and it discharges; Brown pulls away and runs up the road ~35 feet away in the time it takes Wilson to get out of the vehicle, yell "freeze", and fire a shot that either grazing his arm or is a warning shot that does not touch him.


I'm with you to this point.  However, I think this is where our versions of events start to disagree.  Johnson says that he turned around with his hands up and said "Don't shoot".  I think he misheard, and Johnson was saying "HADOUKEN".  Notice the arm position:

american-otaku.com

Officer Wilson is a hero for getting the shots off before Brown unleashed a blue fireball.  Who knows how many it could have killed and much damage that would have caused?
 
2014-08-21 12:20:28 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: Clemkadidlefark

I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..

Source? :\


Fw:fw:fw:FW:Fw:fw:fw:fw
 
2014-08-21 12:21:02 PM  

Dansker: TeamEd: Dictatorial_Flair: GungFu: Whoo..just saw the other one where the dude went shopping without any cash...repeatedly, and when the cops come he politely asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. Repeatedly. He dead now. He very dead. Shop owner down 2 drinks and a pastry.

Was that in Ferguson as well? Dat's farked up, dawg.

You left out the "he was waving a weapon around and acting crazy" part. If you relentlessly approach cops while brandishing a knife, at any speed, you're almost guaranteed to get shot. Maybe they could have done something besides shooting the guy, but people who do what he did usually end up getting shot.

... In the USA.
In sane countries cops are trained to de-escalate encounters with mentally disturbed individuals.

Not always (sorry about the crappy translation, but you'll get the gist), assuming you consider Denmark a sane country


Police 'stop and think' action drags on, and only during the last 14 days, two Danes were hit by police shooting. Most often it affects the mentally ill

On the other hand, it is one of the most effective and efficient cures for mental illness.
 
2014-08-21 12:21:55 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.


It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.
 
2014-08-21 12:24:59 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: I guess the children in Fark's audience missed the part about the Department of Justice sending agitators to Ferguson to educate blacks how to riot. Then Eric Holder shows up and things quiet down. Guess ya'll missed that part ..


Get back to your trailer and spend your disability check on Wilson's defense fund.
 
2014-08-21 12:25:53 PM  

Sammichless: Dansker: Sammichless: Dansker: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: But rough young men who might have went prowling for some dark jolly and release from society penning them in now just crank up the X-BOX

I honestly think it's far more significant that there are simply fewer young men and that Western populations are aging. Once the incipient retirement boom in the Western world literally dies out in a couple of decades and the demographic balances shift back to something more normal, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in violent crime.

The drop in violent crime is much greater than the increase in average age in the US.

It is probably a factor, amongst several...... but, not a super significant one.

It's one of the few factors that is almost equal across the entire Western world. There was an increase in violent crime as the large post-war generations grew into adulthood, and there has been a significant decrease since they began hitting 50. I can't offhand think of other influences that have had equal impact in all countries sharing the current decrease in violent crime.

Pretty good point....... but, we share a lot of things with the Western World.

Cultural changes are a big one that we mostly share.
Increased ADHD (I have no idea why this would help)
Someone already mentioned video games
Obesity (It's rough being a chubby thug)
Erectile Dysfunction (Testosterone?)
Socialism (Better safety nets make criminal behavior less desirable)
Helicopter parenting (I shot BB guns and didn't wear a helmet and knee pads when I rode a bike..... Young people now maybe more adverse to risk taking.)

I'm sure I could invent more reasons if I felt like it.


I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.
More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.
 
2014-08-21 12:28:48 PM  

Dansker: WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.

It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.


It's also a major reason that China is considered a ticking time bomb; the old one child policy and parental preference for boys leading to a change of 3 more boys than girls per hundred births to 10.5 more boys than girls per hundred births. You've got tens of millions of young men who don't have a reasonable expectation to find a wife in the country, and that's going to lead to a lot of bored teenagers/young adults with too much testosterone and a chip on their shoulder.

(Unrelated, but one factor of China's insanely high savings rates appears to be the one child policy too. Studies have found that the steeper the gender disparity among young adults in an area of the country the higher the savings rate. The logic is that both young men and their parents are concerned about their marriage prospects and as a result seek to establish wealth at a young age to make them more attractive suitors.)
 
2014-08-21 12:28:54 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.


The Police in Ferguson (like many places) has failed their community. I do not know all of things that they have done wrong.

The protests happening now would not happen in a community that could trust their police.

BUT

I am worried that they have pinned to much on the Michael Brown shooting.

If they are wrong (and that the cop was following his training), I am worried that they will only create more tragedy from this tragedy.

I have seen your posts, I know what side you are on........ what do you think?

If Wilson is not guilty of a crime, do you think that the protests will do more harm than good?

/I DO think it's great that the protests have gotten the DOJ involved!
 
2014-08-21 12:30:43 PM  

mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.



Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.
 
2014-08-21 12:31:07 PM  

Grungehamster: Dansker: WelldeadLink: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Crime rates have gone down because of video games.

I believe that several researchers suggest that crime rates actually have gone down due to the aging of the children of the baby boomers. The children of the 60's generation were trouble makers.

It's not that they make more trouble, it's just that they are more. Violence is mostly a young man's game, so increasing or decreasing the young male population predictably influences the crime rates. If you're looking to blame anyone, it's really their parents fault.

It's also a major reason that China is considered a ticking time bomb; the old one child policy and parental preference for boys leading to a change of 3 more boys than girls per hundred births to 10.5 more boys than girls per hundred births. You've got tens of millions of young men who don't have a reasonable expectation to find a wife in the country, and that's going to lead to a lot of bored teenagers/young adults with too much testosterone and a chip on their shoulder.

(Unrelated, but one factor of China's insanely high savings rates appears to be the one child policy too. Studies have found that the steeper the gender disparity among young adults in an area of the country the higher the savings rate. The logic is that both young men and their parents are concerned about their marriage prospects and as a result seek to establish wealth at a young age to make them more attractive suitors.)


Since it was not clear: I am aware China has relaxed the one child policy, but the ripples of it are still happening; the gender disparity peaked about 9 years ago so in another half decade or so we'll see if the fears are unfounded.
 
2014-08-21 12:34:11 PM  

Dansker: I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.


More good points.

Seriously.

But, I still imagine that it isn't ALL average age related..... the drop in violent crime seems much more dramatic than I think that can account for.

/Just because I think so!
 
2014-08-21 12:36:41 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: TheAgeOfEgos: CSB:  I worked part time in a prison ER for awhile, seeing at need populations for student loan forgiveness, etc.  Plus, it was actually kind of interesting treating the prison population--certainly gave me some perspective.

One night, right before my shift ended, a prisoner in AD-SEG (the 'hole') declared a medical emergency, stating he was having chest pain.  During the examination, he had an arm free and punched me in the right side of my face while I was listening with my stethoscope.  Knocked me back a few feet, then he was promptly secured by the officers.  I had to fill out paperwork on the incident, give an immediate statement, etc before I went to the hospital.  I didn't think anything was wrong with me, as I really didn't feel anything at all in regards to pain--although I was pretty hyped up obviously.

When I got to the hospital, x-ray showed I had a maxillary fracture.  Later that night, my face became extremely swollen and started hurting like hell.  Next day, I had trouble smiling (or really showing any emotion) due to how sore/swollen my face was.

So TL;DR--it doesn't shock me at all he was walking around with a facial fracture.  I did, was quite sure I had nothing extensive in terms of damage...and I have medical education.  He was probably just hyped up on adrenalin.


In other news, did you guys see this?

https://www.gofundme.com/SupportOfficerWilson


That fund raiser accumulated 123k in 3 days, that shocked the hell out of me.


LOL. How much have you donated? Seems odd to just drop that link in there like that, unsolicited.


It's been going around, I was just shocked at the # (And really, as in typical Fark fashion--any update/news source on an ongoing case becomes a general discussion thread).  I was shocked that many people would willingly donate their cash to someone they do not know, over an incident they have little to no facts on.

Unlike parties from both sides, I haven't made a determination on what happened with Brown/Wilson--and even then I don't donate to stuff like that.  The last donation I made that was not related to a health field was for...wait for it...Obama's election run.  Really puts a different spin on your "LOL" response doesn't it :).
 
2014-08-21 12:39:30 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.


You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.
 
2014-08-21 12:43:18 PM  

dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.


So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?
 
2014-08-21 12:45:00 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.



Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.
 
2014-08-21 12:48:06 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?


The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.
 
2014-08-21 12:49:11 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.


Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.


You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.
 
2014-08-21 12:49:16 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.


I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Kind of invalidates "drive with a white friend" meme.
 
2014-08-21 12:49:21 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?


bullshiat. he was treated and released the same farking day.
 
2014-08-21 12:50:25 PM  

jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.


But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.
 
2014-08-21 12:51:29 PM  

Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.


Only without permission.
 
2014-08-21 12:51:54 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.


The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.
 
2014-08-21 12:52:10 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?


No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.
 
2014-08-21 12:53:03 PM  

Sammichless: Dansker: I'm not sure any of those really coincide in impact with the drop in crime, with the possible exception of game consoles. Some of them are not as widely shared as you imagine (obesity, helicopter parenting), and socialist/social democrat influences predate the post war fluctuation in crime rates. And speaking for Denmark, it's actually become less of an influnce since the mid '90s.More interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a common denominator in more commonly referenced factors like penal systems and weapons laws.

More good points.

Seriously.

But, I still imagine that it isn't ALL average age related..... the drop in violent crime seems much more dramatic than I think that can account for.

/Just because I think so!


I'll agree that video games may have played their part, but think about this: If the "blame demographics" side of the arguemnent is true, then politicians can't take credit or place blame, and I think we'd all like to see that.
So can't you at least want it to be true?
 
2014-08-21 12:53:36 PM  

Geoff Peterson: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

bullshiat. he was treated and released the same farking day.


What's bullshiat?  That he was treated and released the same day tells us nothing about his injuries.  The fact that he was treated tells us there was some kind of injury.
 
2014-08-21 12:53:54 PM  

jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.


You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?
 
2014-08-21 12:54:37 PM  

Gunny Highway: Dansker: For every one blogger or amateur video reporter doing something worthwhile, there's a million others flooding the media landscape. And if you're just standing in a media pen with a bunch of other reporters, you're not contributing something valuable.

What is the harm of letting them stand in the media pen.  Why is there a media pen at all?


So they don't get beheaded by an angry mob?
 
2014-08-21 12:54:54 PM  

mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Kind of invalidates "drive with a white friend" meme.


I once had a cop do something similar.  They approached us after we heard one officer say, "We go powder!"  He asked us what we were thinking?

They found a baggie of mashed up cookies in the bottom of my buddy's backpack.
 
2014-08-21 12:55:09 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

It's a multitude of things: part of which you described. But I'm a white middle aged male who drives a minivan and even my backside puckers up when driving through that area. Because the cops will pull you over in a heartbeat for doing 25.6 in a 25mph zone or for having a single worn out windshield wiper blade.


Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

You make valid points but I can assure you when you are pulled over in a part of town know for drugs or prostitution they will ask what you are doing there, even if you are white.

Now highlighted for your reading pleasure.

You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked ...


I've tried to explain to my black friends (yes, I have them so therefore I can't be racist) that the whole "what are you doing/where are you going/who are you visiting" interrogation barrage even comes at us white people even when we're in the right part of town for the way we look and the car we're driving.
 
2014-08-21 12:56:00 PM  

dr_blasto: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.


That would be the officer releasing his records, not the hospital as you stated would be the only way you would accept them in your previous post.
 
2014-08-21 12:58:28 PM  

Gunny Highway: mjohnson71: DROxINxTHExWIND: Sure they will. But when they approach your car you won't be held at gunpoint. You won't be told to sit on the curb with your ankles crossed while they "just search for weapons". You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences.

I still remember my first exposure to that as a teenager when 3 buddies and I went to the St. Louis County Headquarters library for a school project we were working on. (For the non St. Louis Farkers, the County HQ library is located in the very white and very wealthy suburb of Frontenac.) My black friend was driving and he didn't do a thing wrong, but we still got pulled over. In broad daylight they used the loudspeaker to tell us to make no sudden moves and to stay in the car until backup arrived. After two more cops showed up they had us all get out at gunpoint, do the whole walk backwards, get down on our knees and cross our legs behind us. After 10 minutes of rifling through the car and all of our bags they sent us on our way without an explanation or a ticket.

Kind of invalidates "drive with a white friend" meme.

I once had a cop do something similar.  They approached us after we heard one officer say, "We go powder!"  He asked us what we were thinking?

They found a baggie of mashed up cookies in the bottom of my buddy's backpack.


I guess part of it was we were coming from track practice and were all slobby looking. I still remember the cops though my black friend's Van Halen 5150 Tour t-shirt was funny. They kept asking "YOU?!?! Like Van Halen!?!?!?"
 
2014-08-21 12:58:35 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: DROxINxTHExWIND: mjohnson71: I used this example in another thread:
Let's say you work in Ferguson at the world headquarters for Emerson Electric. It's lunch and you feel like going to Goody Goody Diner which is 3 1/2 miles away in north St. Louis City. If you drive just 3 1/2 miles you'll drive through 8 towns, 7 of which have their own police force. And since all of those little towns of 200, 400 or 800 people don't have the tax base they pull people over all the time and write tickets like mad. That's part of the reason there's so much built-up tension between the largely African American community of North County and police.


I'm sure the African Americans in Fewrguson are angry about much more than traffic tickets. Look at the rates of searches and arrests for blacks versus whites...and look at the fact that whites in STL were more likely to be holding contraband. The police forces are racist. They're not pulling blacks over to generate revenue for the town. They're searching and locking black people up.

The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.



Grrrrr!!! This is an outrage!!! Is that what you're looking for? Lol. You seem to like stats. Go back and re-evaluate them.
 
2014-08-21 12:58:39 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.


I do not believe that you can say "Period end of story" here.

I am pretty sure that the FPD failed in Ferguson. WHY do I think that?!?

Because of massive protests and looting over it.

Maybe you could argue that they did their job just fine, but, their PR dept. failed to connect to the people. And that their community outreach sucked.

That is, of course, not the most likely way that they failed (by a longshot)......... BUT, they DID fail.
 
2014-08-21 12:58:52 PM  

jst3p: Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

Only without permission.


Even so, I'd hardly think it's normal practice for hospitals to "release" information like that (assuming you mean give it to the media). If anything, they'd provide the patient with copies of records etc. for him to make public on his own if he wants. But then you'd probably have a whole bunch of other conspiracy theories springing up if that were to happen.
 
2014-08-21 01:00:08 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?


You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.
 
2014-08-21 01:00:58 PM  

Callous: dr_blasto: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

No, it isn't an illegal act for the evidence to be part of a legal case wherein the cop uses his medical report as evidence toward dropping Brown in self-defense. But if he shows up on camera with his head wrapped up in some bandage, I'm not buying it. If another CT scan is floated without the hospital's ER confirming it, I'm not buying it.

That would be the officer releasing his records, not the hospital as you stated would be the only way you would accept them in your previous post.


Oh, whatever. If the hospital certifies that they are, indeed from that day and for that guy, then that's all good.

The point is, the broken orbital and broken jaw are lies. They've been repeatedly floated and in order to overcome the damage of those lies, they'll have to prove it. The officer should have to have an affirmative defense at this point.
 
2014-08-21 01:01:06 PM  

Dansker: I'll agree that video games may have played their part, but think about this: If the "blame demographics" side of the arguemnent is true, then politicians can't take credit or place blame, and I think we'd all like to see that.So can't you at least want it to be true?


Fair enough.

I really never thought that politics had as much difference as cultural changes anyhow.

:)
 
2014-08-21 01:01:11 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


I agree.  I will cite COPS has evidence.
 
2014-08-21 01:04:35 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.



Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.
 
2014-08-21 01:04:55 PM  

Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

without patient's permission
 
2014-08-21 01:06:42 PM  

dr_blasto: Oh, whatever. If the hospital certifies that they are, indeed from that day and for that guy, then that's all good.


What kind of hospital would do that? I mean, I know I've had to get certified records from clinics, but that's been at my request, and usually for things like me having to prove I'd undergone medical testing for immigration purposes etc. Even if I were to say, in writing, that I waive confidentiality, and even if I were to scan and post those medical records on Facebook, I'd imagine that any third parties (other than the government) would still get a "no comment" from the clinic if they called them asking for "certification" of my medical records.
 
2014-08-21 01:06:47 PM  

dr_blasto: The officer should have to have an affirmative defense at this point.


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119157/darren-wilsons-conviction- wi ll-be-basically-impossible

Not in Missouri. Instead, as long as there is a modicum of evidence and reasonable plausibility in support of a self-defense claim, a court must accept the claim and acquit the accused. The prosecution must not only prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime, but also disprove a defendant's claim of self-defense to the same high standard. Under Missouri law, all a citizen claiming self-defense or a police officer claiming to have fired while pursuing a dangerous criminal need do is "inject the issue of justification." In other words, he only needs to produce some evidence (his own testimony counts) supporting the claim. Once he does so, "
 
2014-08-21 01:06:50 PM  

Biological Ali: jst3p: Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records.

Only without permission.

Even so, I'd hardly think it's normal practice for hospitals to "release" information like that (assuming you mean give it to the media). If anything, they'd provide the patient with copies of records etc. for him to make public on his own if he wants. But then you'd probably have a whole bunch of other conspiracy theories springing up if that were to happen.


Me? No. But as I said, until there is  any evidence that the assault happened I don't see any reason to believe that it did.
 
2014-08-21 01:06:57 PM  

mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.

There are parts of Ferguson that are coming back and even gentrifying. Stuff like a wine bar, microbrewery etc. I think they were trying to copy another successful inner ring suburb (Maplewood) in their attempted renewal.

I hate to be that racist guy, but Maplewood is about 75% white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maplewood,_Missouri
Ferguson can forget about copying Maplewood.

I know that; I live there. But it's not a bad template for turning around an inner ring suburb. Or are you saying that once a suburb has gone black, ...


No, I've seen gentrification happen in plenty of places.  Ferguson doesn't seem like a promising place for it, though, given that it's been de-gentrifying for a quarter century and it just went through a week+ of protests/riots/looting.
 
2014-08-21 01:09:56 PM  

Sammichless: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.

I do not believe that you can say "Period end of story" here.

I am pretty sure that the FPD failed in Ferguson. WHY do I think that?!?

Because of massive protests and looting over it.

Maybe you could argue that they did their job just fine, but, their PR dept. failed to connect to the people. And that their community outreach sucked.

That is, of course, not the most likely way that they failed (by a longshot)......... BUT, they DID fail.


Nothing the FPD could have done would have prevented this mess. They are not the ones who caused this mess. The protesters and rioters did. They before any facts were gathered they were demanding a lynching. They only want vengeance not justice. I also fault Governor Nixon for not stomping out this insurrection quickly. He should have had the NG called up with in hours of the riots. Couple that with the media fanning the flames and the arrival of professional trouble makers a lot of people are at fault.
 
2014-08-21 01:11:14 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.


And I will stand by my assertion that you are pulling that out of your ass. "Where are you going? What are you doing here?" are common questions asked to anyone who looks less than middle class. People who are doing wrong will sometimes incriminate themselves out of nervousness. Standard cop tactic is to as open ended questions and let them ramble on.

But if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. Racism is your nail.
 
2014-08-21 01:12:08 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.


Do they generally pull over minorities more than whites in non-farked-up parts of the country? I know that crime-for-crime the black kid is more likely to in court for a first offense than a white kid in almost every jurisdiction, but that's not the same as driving.

CSB-wise, I was once pulled over in Compton area for being white, out of state plates and having tinted windows. Was 1991, crack-war era. The cop said the only people that looked like us that came through either shot the place up or were buying drugs.
 
2014-08-21 01:13:58 PM  
I kind of wish the protesters would pick their fights better. 300 lb, six foot plus tall guy rushing a cop after robbing a store? I'd farking shoot him. Same with Rodney King, he was begging for a beat down and got it.

I'm sure there are better examples of police brutality worthy of protests.

The looting doesn't help either.
 
2014-08-21 01:14:56 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Nothing the FPD could have done would have prevented this mess. They are not the ones who caused this mess. The protesters and rioters did. They before any facts were gathered they were demanding a lynching. They only want vengeance not justice. I also fault Governor Nixon for not stomping out this insurrection quickly. He should have had the NG called up with in hours of the riots. Couple that with the media fanning the flames and the arrival of professional trouble makers a lot of people are at fault.


They should have come out with the video footage on day one so there was a counter to the "gentle giant" on the way to college narrative.
 
2014-08-21 01:16:07 PM  

hitlersbrain: I kind of wish the protesters would pick their fights better. 300 lb, six foot plus tall guy rushing a cop after robbing a store? I'd farking shoot him. Same with Rodney King, he was begging for a beat down and got it.

I'm sure there are better examples of police brutality worthy of protests.

The looting doesn't help either.


I live with my mom. User name too obvious. Way too obvious.
 
2014-08-21 01:16:52 PM  

jst3p: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.


You don't need a press pass to be a journalist.
 
2014-08-21 01:18:30 PM  

dr_blasto: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.

Do they generally pull over minorities more than whites in non-farked-up parts of the country? I know that crime-for-crime the black kid is more likely to in court for a first offense than a white kid in almost every jurisdiction, but that's not the same as driving.

CSB-wise, I was once pulled over in Compton area for being white, out of state plates and having tinted windows. Was 1991, crack-war era. The cop said the only people that looked like us that came through either shot the place up or were buying drugs.



I lived in Los Gatos, CA during high school and early 20's. Los Gatos is a pretty affluent community, but we didn't belong there (lived in one of my grand fathers rental properties). I drove beater cars and every time I got a new one (beaters didn't last me long) I would get pulled over a handful of times until the cops learned that the car belonged in the area. Every single time I was asked "What are you doing in the area?"

/white guy who was asked this every time
//Dro is right, racism exists, but is wrong about this tangent.
///he will die before he admits he could be wrong about something though
 
2014-08-21 01:19:05 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: jst3p: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.

You don't need a press pass to be a journalist.


But you need one to be in the area reserved for media.
 
2014-08-21 01:20:30 PM  

jst3p: HotWingConspiracy: jst3p: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.

You don't need a press pass to be a journalist.

But you need one to be in the area reserved for media.


Ok, but that's not what you said.
 
2014-08-21 01:20:35 PM  

keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.



If your numbers are correct, that is a substantial decrease of the white population in Ferguson.  If the remainder are property owners with equity, I predict that they will take a substantial hit.   If their mortgages are underwater or they are renters, it may be prudent for them to move to a more stable area and abandon Ferguson to their African-American neighbors.  Who really knows?   Maybe the citizens of Ferguson will elect the kind of government that they truly deserve, and live happily ever after.
 
2014-08-21 01:20:40 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: jst3p: HotWingConspiracy: SBinRR: HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.

Who?
Serious question.  No snark.

Look up the top youtube earners.

That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.

You don't need a press pass to be a journalist.


But if you're a journalist and you have the opportunity to not be in the press pen, you're useless if you insist on staying there.
 
2014-08-21 01:21:27 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Sammichless: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: The FPD are pooling over more African-Americans because they are the majority population of the town. Period end of story.

I do not believe that you can say "Period end of story" here.

I am pretty sure that the FPD failed in Ferguson. WHY do I think that?!?

Because of massive protests and looting over it.

Maybe you could argue that they did their job just fine, but, their PR dept. failed to connect to the people. And that their community outreach sucked.

That is, of course, not the most likely way that they failed (by a longshot)......... BUT, they DID fail.

Nothing the FPD could have done would have prevented this mess. They are not the ones who caused this mess. The protesters and rioters did. They before any facts were gathered they were demanding a lynching. They only want vengeance not justice. I also fault Governor Nixon for not stomping out this insurrection quickly. He should have had the NG called up with in hours of the riots. Couple that with the media fanning the flames and the arrival of professional trouble makers a lot of people are at fault.


In my city they shot an unarmed teenager in the back not that long ago.

The metropolitan area that I am part of they pretty regularly shoot mentally handicapped people.

This doesn't result in city wide protests where I am from. Here, we trust the police to act appropriately. We know that sometimes their shootings are tragic. We even know that some of them could be prevented.

BUT, where I am from, we believe that most officers do their best under the circumstances.

We believe that we could, and should, do better...... but, we think that our police are trying.

In Ferguson...... This isn't the case. People do not trust their police.

THAT IS FAILURE.
 
2014-08-21 01:23:00 PM  

Pull the Plug on Grannie: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Nothing the FPD could have done would have prevented this mess. They are not the ones who caused this mess. The protesters and rioters did. They before any facts were gathered they were demanding a lynching. They only want vengeance not justice. I also fault Governor Nixon for not stomping out this insurrection quickly. He should have had the NG called up with in hours of the riots. Couple that with the media fanning the flames and the arrival of professional trouble makers a lot of people are at fault.

They should have come out with the video footage on day one so there was a counter to the "gentle giant" on the way to college narrative.


It's funny but a lot of people think that him committing a violent felony moments before unimportant. Also no parent will admit they raised a criminal. They are always an angel.
 
2014-08-21 01:23:30 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: You are still wrong. If you are in a part of town that is unusual for your socioeconomic status will be asked what you are doing there.

You seem to be agreeing with me. Not sure what part of what I said was wrong. Are you suggesting that I replace the word "probably" with "always" or something?

You said "You probably won't be asked why you're in a certain part of town. There are differences."

I am saying you are wrong, you probably will no matter what color you are.


Oh. Semantics. Just to clarify, probably leaves wiggle room both ways. And I stand by my assertion that it happens much more frequently to African-Americans than it does to middle-aged white guys, like the gentleman who I was responding too.

And I will stand by my assertion that you are pulling that out of your ass. "Where are you going? What are you doing here?" are common questions asked to anyone who looks less than middle class. People who are doing wrong will sometimes incriminate themselves out of nervousness. Standard cop tactic is to as open ended questions and let them ramble on.

But if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. Racism is your nail.



Jesus, that escalated quickly. Settle down, champ. This isn't even a point of contention. I'm very aware of white drug abusers who come to the hood. MOST cities are not majority ghetto, meaning there is a less than equal chance that you as a white person will be pulled over in an area known for drug traffic. Whereas, there is a larger chance that I will be pulled over in an area that is majority white, or where a police officer thinks that I look out of place.
 
2014-08-21 01:27:05 PM  

Pull the Plug on Grannie: dr_blasto: The officer should have to have an affirmative defense at this point.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119157/darren-wilsons-conviction- wi ll-be-basically-impossible

Not in Missouri. Instead, as long as there is a modicum of evidence and reasonable plausibility in support of a self-defense claim, a court must accept the claim and acquit the accused. The prosecution must not only prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the crime, but also disprove a defendant's claim of self-defense to the same high standard. Under Missouri law, all a citizen claiming self-defense or a police officer claiming to have fired while pursuing a dangerous criminal need do is "inject the issue of justification." In other words, he only needs to produce some evidence (his own testimony counts) supporting the claim. Once he does so, "


The Dept. of Justice is conducting their own investigation.

The top ranking military medical examiner is preforming an autopsy on Michael Brown.

If Michael Brown's hands where in the air, the autopsy will likely confirm it....... and Wilson will get the maximum sentence for 2nd degree murder.

In this case, at least, it is unlikely that there will be much doubt about what happened (in the end).
 
2014-08-21 01:28:55 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.


Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

Now I think murder would be a difficult thing to try to convict him with (manslaughter is much more reasonable if you do believe that he did do wrong in this case) and the union ain't going to let any cop be fired until actually convicted. I also think that asking the racial composition of the force to match the community is an exercise in futility: if you have evidence of bias in hiring or promoting practices then go after that but trying to make it "equal" isn't going to do anyone much good. However none of those things were demanding his death without trial.

Someone got shot in broad daylight unarmed from several yards away while unarmed with multiple witnesses saying at the scene that he wasn't posing a threat to the officer when it happened. The police department response was "we will not release the name of the officer involved; he will face an internal review if he acted properly and will file charges if we find he acted criminally" with no promises to even let anyone know anything if the internal review cleared the officer. Do you see why the Weeners was protests, and how the crackdown on the protests that didn't attempt to discriminate between the protesters and the rioters just got people more angry?
 
2014-08-21 01:30:02 PM  

ptpark: keypusher: mjohnson71: Gunny Highway: While everyone is sorting out the details of the past (very important stuff), I am wondering how this whole thing ends and what the last changes in the town will be.  At the moment it doesnt seem like there will be much change when this whole thing does settle down and people get back to the normal slog that is life.

Well, hopefully black votership will increase in Ferguson.

Dellwood, which is the suburb just to the north is just as black. However it's a little nicer with fewer apartment residents so they vote more. Dellwood's mayor is African American and he disbanded their police force in favor of using the St. Louis County police. Ferguson has more apartments and rental houses; all with extremely low voting rates. The only people voting are the white homeowners and that's why all the elected officials are white.

I know that before the QT was fenced off there were two ladies registering voters. Not sure where they went as I haven't seen any more media coverage of them.

Ferguson was 75% white in 1990 and is 29% white today.  Since its population has actually decreased slightly over the past quarter-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson,_Missouri ), that change is the result of black outmigration and slow-motion white flight.

After the recent unpleasantness, expect the remaining whites to GTFO.  And then all elected officials will be black, and Ferguson will be lovely.


If your numbers are correct, that is a substantial decrease of the white population in Ferguson.  If the remainder are property owners with equity, I predict that they will take a substantial hit.   If their mortgages are underwater or they are renters, it may be prudent for them to move to a more stable area and abandon Ferguson to their African-American neighbors.  Who really knows?   Maybe the citizens of Ferguson will elect the kind of government that they truly deserve, and live happily ever after.


North County (including Ferguson) is horribly under water on their houses.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/st-louis-is-hot-spot-for-unde rw ater-mortgages/article_1a9b46b5-38f4-5b93-b4b4-e895f8e0bab5.html

bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com
 
2014-08-21 01:30:39 PM  

Biological Ali: dr_blasto: Oh, whatever. If the hospital certifies that they are, indeed from that day and for that guy, then that's all good.

What kind of hospital would do that? I mean, I know I've had to get certified records from clinics, but that's been at my request, and usually for things like me having to prove I'd undergone medical testing for immigration purposes etc. Even if I were to say, in writing, that I waive confidentiality, and even if I were to scan and post those medical records on Facebook, I'd imagine that any third parties (other than the government) would still get a "no comment" from the clinic if they called them asking for "certification" of my medical records.


Take a step back and look. My statement and point, whether well-written or not, is that we have seen a significant push of verifiably false information that this cop has had both a broken jaw and a broken orbital. This includes shopped stock CT scans. Because of this very deliberate attempt to spread false information, anything the department or the cop says about any injury is suspect and for it to be believable, they'd need to cross a higher bar than if the campaign of lies had not been waged.

Read what you will, my intent is to say that they not trustworthy and HIPAA or whatever isn't the point. I find any argument that the cop was injured to be unbelievable until they provide evidence to support their claim.
 
2014-08-21 01:32:58 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Whereas, there is a larger chance that I will be pulled over in an area that is majority white, or where a police officer thinks that I look out of place.


The point is they look to pull over anyone who looks out of place.
 
2014-08-21 01:33:51 PM  

Grungehamster: unarmed from several yards away while unarmed


Department of Redundancy Department.
 
2014-08-21 01:37:59 PM  
 
2014-08-21 01:42:21 PM  

Numinor: Suicide by cop-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-P54MZVxMU&bpctr=1408643305


That cop gives love a bad name.
 
2014-08-21 01:43:02 PM  

Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

Now I think murder would be a difficult thing to try to convict him with (manslaughter is much more reasonable if you do believe that he did do wrong in this case) and the union ain't going to let any cop be fired until actually convicted. I also think that asking the racial composition of the force to match the community is an exercise in futility: if you have evidence of bias in hiring or promoting practices then go after that but trying to make it "equal" isn't going to do anyone much good. However none of those things were demanding his death without trial.

Someone got shot in broad daylight unarmed from several yards away while unarmed with multiple witnesses saying at the scene that he wasn't posing a threat to the officer when it happened. The police department response was "we will not release the name of the officer involved; he will face an internal review if he acted properly and will file charges if we find he acted criminally" with no promises to even let anyone know anything if the internal review cleared the officer. Do you see why the Weeners was protests, and how the crackdown on the protests that didn't attempt to discriminate between the protesters and the rioters just got people more angry?


If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.
 
2014-08-21 01:45:14 PM  

dr_blasto: Take a step back and look. My statement and point, whether well-written or not, is that we have seen a significant push of verifiably false information that this cop has had both a broken jaw and a broken orbital. This includes shopped stock CT scans. Because of this very deliberate attempt to spread false information, anything the department or the cop says about any injury is suspect and for it to be believable, they'd need to cross a higher bar than if the campaign of lies had not been waged.

Read what you will, my intent is to say that they not trustworthy and HIPAA or whatever isn't the point. I find any argument that the cop was injured to be unbelievable until they provide evidence to support their claim.


Sure, but it's really not that big of a deal even if there's false information about his supposed injuries flying around, because the only upshot to that will be that people arguing on the internet might be momentarily confused. To the people who matter (i.e. the grand jury), this is a non-issue.
 
2014-08-21 01:45:35 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: Whereas, there is a larger chance that I will be pulled over in an area that is majority white, or where a police officer thinks that I look out of place.

The point is they look to pull over anyone who looks out of place.


And my point is that a white middle-aged man looks out of place FAR FEWER PLACES than a young African-American male. That's indisputable.
 
2014-08-21 01:47:02 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: Whereas, there is a larger chance that I will be pulled over in an area that is majority white, or where a police officer thinks that I look out of place.

The point is they look to pull over anyone who looks out of place.

And my point is that a white middle-aged man looks out of place FAR FEWER PLACES than a young African-American male. That's indisputable.


Now that you have moved the goal posts, you have a point.
 
2014-08-21 01:49:27 PM  
mjohnson71:

North County (including Ferguson) is horribly under water on their houses.

Wow - that's a substantial number of upside down mortgage holders.  Those people have good reason to be pissed off even without overenthusiastic policing.
 
2014-08-21 01:55:07 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

Now I think murder would be a difficult thing to try to convict him with (manslaughter is much more reasonable if you do believe that he did do wrong in this case) and the union ain't going to let any cop be fired until actually convicted. I also think that asking the racial composition of the force to match the community is an exercise in futility: if you have evidence of bias in hiring or promoting practices then go after that but trying to make it "equal" isn't going to do anyone much good. However none of those things were demanding his death without trial.

Someone got shot in broad daylight unarmed from several yards away while unarmed with multiple witnesses saying at the scene that he wasn't posing a threat to the officer when it happened. The police department response was "we will not release the name of the officer involved; he will face an internal review if he acted properly and will file charges if we find he acted criminally" with no promises to even let anyone know anything if the internal review cleared the officer. Do you see why the Weeners was protests, and how the crackdown on the protests that didn't attempt to discriminate between the protesters and the rioters just got people more angry?

If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.


You haven't negotiated much, have you?
 
2014-08-21 01:59:57 PM  

parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

Now I think murder would be a difficult thing to try to convict him with (manslaughter is much more reasonable if you do believe that he did do wrong in this case) and the union ain't going to let any cop be fired until actually convicted. I also think that asking the racial composition of the force to match the community is an exercise in futility: if you have evidence of bias in hiring or promoting practices then go after that but trying to make it "equal" isn't going to do anyone much good. However none of those things were demanding his death without trial.

Someone got shot in broad daylight unarmed from several yards away while unarmed with multiple witnesses saying at the scene that he wasn't posing a threat to the officer when it happened. The police department response was "we will not release the name of the officer involved; he will face an internal review if he acted properly and will file charges if we find he acted criminally" with no promises to even let anyone know anything if the internal review cleared the officer. Do you see why the Weeners was protests, and how the crackdown on the protests that didn't attempt to discriminate between the protesters and the rioters just got people more angry?

If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

You haven't negotiated much, have you?


Considering that every demand either is illegal or violates the FPD's cba I'm sure they don't know much either.
 
2014-08-21 02:03:41 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.


I listed my own issue with those demands; but would you agree that it's not unreasonable to want the investigation to be transparent (instead of keeping it a secret and saying it's up to members of his own local department who he works with to decide if he behaved correctly or not, and if it's determined he acted correctly it will just be dropped with no public knowledge). Transparency includes knowing who pulled the trigger and what protocol the local PD is trained to follow when attempting to engage a suspect.

If you feel the police response to the situation was reasonable it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.
 
2014-08-21 02:04:02 PM  

Grungehamster: Wilson suffered a severe facial injury

...

cameroncrazy1984: Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.


IN HIGH SCHOOL -damn you caps lock- I got punched in the face. I left school early and walked home because I was embarrassed at my black eye. About a month later, my mom asked my what I was doing to my face. Apparently I kept reaching up and pushing it. I didn't realize it, and nothing hurt. She told me to let her have a look. My one eye seemed higher than the other. We went to the doctor and then had x-rays. It turned out to be a fracture of the orbital bone, in three places. Now I have three titanium plates in my head and twelve or thirteen screws. Nothing hurt, my vision was fine, but my skull was dismantled. I'd consider that a severe facial injury that wouldn't have affected my aim.

/didn't carry a gun in high school
//if I did my aim wouldn't matter because we were so close, but the other guy would probably have gotten shot
///unless he carried too; then it would have been a gun fight in economics class instead a food fight gone bad
//it's cool feeling the plates and screws through my skin, but not worth the headaches and other pressure effects
/5-pack of slashies
 
2014-08-21 02:04:35 PM  

Biological Ali: dr_blasto: Take a step back and look. My statement and point, whether well-written or not, is that we have seen a significant push of verifiably false information that this cop has had both a broken jaw and a broken orbital. This includes shopped stock CT scans. Because of this very deliberate attempt to spread false information, anything the department or the cop says about any injury is suspect and for it to be believable, they'd need to cross a higher bar than if the campaign of lies had not been waged.

Read what you will, my intent is to say that they not trustworthy and HIPAA or whatever isn't the point. I find any argument that the cop was injured to be unbelievable until they provide evidence to support their claim.

Sure, but it's really not that big of a deal even if there's false information about his supposed injuries flying around, because the only upshot to that will be that people arguing on the internet might be momentarily confused. To the people who matter (i.e. the grand jury), this is a non-issue.


Since I'm not going to be party to any GJ - if there even is one convened - I can only speak to the court of public opinion. Or pubic opinion, since we're all dicks out here anyhow.
 
2014-08-21 02:07:10 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

Now I think murder would be a difficult thing to try to convict him with (manslaughter is much more reasonable if you do believe that he did do wrong in this case) and the union ain't going to let any cop be fired until actually convicted. I also think that asking the racial composition of the force to match the community is an exercise in futility: if you have evidence of bias in hiring or promoting practices then go after that but trying to make it "equal" isn't going to do anyone much good. However none of those things were demanding his death without trial.

Someone got shot in broad daylight unarmed from several yards away while unarmed with multiple witnesses saying at the scene that he wasn't posing a threat to the officer when it happened. The police department response was "we will not release the name of the officer involved; he will face an internal review if he acted properly and will file charges if we find he acted criminally" with no promises to even let anyone know anything if the internal review cleared the officer. Do you see why the Weeners was protests, and how the crackdown on the protests that didn't attempt to discriminate between the protesters and the rioters just got people more angry?

If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

You haven't negotiated much, have you?

Considering that every de ...


EVERY one? take a look at that last one - the one that would likely have prevented this in the first place
 
2014-08-21 02:08:37 PM  

Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

I listed my own issue with those demands; but would you agree that it's not unreasonable to want the investigation to be transparent (instead of keeping it a secret and saying it's up to members of his own local department who he works with to decide if he behaved correctly or not, and if it's determined he acted correctly it will just be dropped with no public knowledge). Transparency includes knowing who pulled the trigger and what protocol the local PD is trained to follow when attempting to engage a suspect.

If you feel the police response to the situation was reasonable it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.


They didn't need to know the cop's name at first. All it would have done is endanger his life. Otherwise they are doing a good job.
 
2014-08-21 02:09:14 PM  

Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

I listed my own issue with those demands; but would you agree that it's not unreasonable to want the investigation to be transparent (instead of keeping it a secret and saying it's up to members of his own local department who he works with to decide if he behaved correctly or not, and if it's determined he acted correctly it will just be dropped with no public knowledge). Transparency includes knowing who pulled the trigger and what protocol the local PD is trained to follow when attempting to engage a suspect.

If you feel the police response to the situation was reasonable it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.


They didn't need to know the cop's name at first. All it would have done is endanger his life.
 
2014-08-21 02:10:40 PM  

skrame: Grungehamster: Wilson suffered a severe facial injury...

cameroncrazy1984: Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.

IN HIGH SCHOOL -damn you caps lock- I got punched in the face. I left school early and walked home because I was embarrassed at my black eye. About a month later, my mom asked my what I was doing to my face. Apparently I kept reaching up and pushing it. I didn't realize it, and nothing hurt. She told me to let her have a look. My one eye seemed higher than the other. We went to the doctor and then had x-rays. It turned out to be a fracture of the orbital bone, in three places. Now I have three titanium plates in my head and twelve or thirteen screws. Nothing hurt, my vision was fine, but my skull was dismantled. I'd consider that a severe facial injury that wouldn't have affected my aim.

/didn't carry a gun in high school
//if I did my aim wouldn't matter because we were so close, but the other guy would probably have gotten shot
///unless he carried too; then it would have been a gun fight in economics class instead a food fight gone bad
//it's cool feeling the plates and screws through my skin, but not worth the headaches and other pressure effects
/5-pack of slashies


You think the officer has a black eye?
 
2014-08-21 02:12:09 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

I listed my own issue with those demands; but would you agree that it's not unreasonable to want the investigation to be transparent (instead of keeping it a secret and saying it's up to members of his own local department who he works with to decide if he behaved correctly or not, and if it's determined he acted correctly it will just be dropped with no public knowledge). Transparency includes knowing who pulled the trigger and what protocol the local PD is trained to follow when attempting to engage a suspect.

If you feel the police response to the situation was reasonable it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

They didn't need to know the cop's name at first. All it would have done is endanger his life. Otherwise they are doing a good job.


of what?
 
2014-08-21 02:12:38 PM  

parasol: You haven't negotiated much, have you?


Cops get a different protocol than civilians in these kind of cases.

WE train cops to stand between us and whatever criminal threat is around.

WE train them that it is their job to kill people if the right circumstances arise.

THAT IS WHY they get different protocol if they shoot somebody while on duty.

Either way, the outcome should be the same. If he murdered somebody, he should go to prison.

BUT, if he followed training, we should count this as a tragic death that should have been avoided...... but, WE should NOT hold it against the officer.

That is what WE do.

There is NO negotiating this.

/Let Wilson fry if he shot a surrendering man.
//Wait until the investigation is through to decide if that happened.
 
2014-08-21 02:13:15 PM  

jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: jst3p: DROxINxTHExWIND: Whereas, there is a larger chance that I will be pulled over in an area that is majority white, or where a police officer thinks that I look out of place.

The point is they look to pull over anyone who looks out of place.

And my point is that a white middle-aged man looks out of place FAR FEWER PLACES than a young African-American male. That's indisputable.

Now that you have moved the goal posts, you have a point.



Oh, you're one of those guys. You're going to be right no matter what. There isn't even a big difference between our two positions. But, if you'd just scroll up a little, you'd see that I was TALKING to a middle-aged white man when you jumped in. So no, the goalposts weren't moved. You just dove in without catching up on the conversation.
 
2014-08-21 02:14:49 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

I listed my own issue with those demands; but would you agree that it's not unreasonable to want the investigation to be transparent (instead of keeping it a secret and saying it's up to members of his own local department who he works with to decide if he behaved correctly or not, and if it's determined he acted correctly it will just be dropped with no public knowledge). Transparency includes knowing who pulled the trigger and what protocol the local PD is trained to follow when attempting to engage a suspect.

If you feel the police response to the situation was reasonable it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

They didn't need to know the cop's name at first. All it would have done is endanger his life.


Yeah, I know. Look at all of the people trying to kill him now that his name is out.


/Oh, wait...
 
2014-08-21 02:14:55 PM  

parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

Now I think murder would be a difficult thing to try to convict him with (manslaughter is much more reasonable if you do believe that he did do wrong in this case) and the union ain't going to let any cop be fired until actually convicted. I also think that asking the racial composition of the force to match the community is an exercise in futility: if you have evidence of bias in hiring or promoting practices then go after that but trying to make it "equal" isn't going to do anyone much good. However none of those things were demanding his death without trial.

Someone got shot in broad daylight unarmed from several yards away while unarmed with multiple witnesses saying at the scene that he wasn't posing a threat to the officer when it happened. The police department response was "we will not release the name of the officer involved; he will face an internal review if he acted properly and will file charges if we find he acted criminally" with no promises to even let anyone know anything if the internal review cleared the officer. Do you see why the Weeners was protests, and how the crackdown on the protests that didn't attempt to discriminate between the protesters and the rioters just got people more angry?

If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

You haven't negotiated much, have you?

Considering that every de ...

EVERY one? take a look at that last one - the one that would likely have prevented this in the first place


The last one especially. If black candidates can't meet the testing and education requirements it isn't the FPD's fault. They shouldn't lower the bar to hire people based on race.
 
2014-08-21 02:17:23 PM  

Sammichless: parasol: You haven't negotiated much, have you?

Cops get a different protocol than civilians in these kind of cases.

WE train cops to stand between us and whatever criminal threat is around.

WE train them that it is their job to kill people if the right circumstances arise.

THAT IS WHY they get different protocol if they shoot somebody while on duty.

Either way, the outcome should be the same. If he murdered somebody, he should go to prison.

BUT, if he followed training, we should count this as a tragic death that should have been avoided...... but, WE should NOT hold it against the officer.

That is what WE do.

There is NO negotiating this.

/Let Wilson fry if he shot a surrendering man.
//Wait until the investigation is through to decide if that happened.


I was referring to the initial list of demands presented by the residents of Ferguson who are largely unfamiliar with the intricacies of a police-involved shooting and subsequent fatality.

You seem to be indicating you are either involved with law enforcement training/legal representation or are suffering from schizophrenia
 
2014-08-21 02:19:44 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

I listed my own issue with those demands; but would you agree that it's not unreasonable to want the investigation to be transparent (instead of keeping it a secret and saying it's up to members of his own local department who he works with to decide if he behaved correctly or not, and if it's determined he acted correctly it will just be dropped with no public knowledge). Transparency includes knowing who pulled the trigger and what protocol the local PD is trained to follow when attempting to engage a suspect.

If you feel the police response to the situation was reasonable it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

They didn't need to know the cop's name at first. All it would have done is endanger his life.

Yeah, I know. Look at all of the people trying to kill him now that his name is out.


/Oh, wait...


Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean the threat wasn't real.
 
2014-08-21 02:20:32 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: DROxINxTHExWIND: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

I listed my own issue with those demands; but would you agree that it's not unreasonable to want the investigation to be transparent (instead of keeping it a secret and saying it's up to members of his own local department who he works with to decide if he behaved correctly or not, and if it's determined he acted correctly it will just be dropped with no public knowledge). Transparency includes knowing who pulled the trigger and what protocol the local PD is trained to follow when attempting to engage a suspect.

If you feel the police response to the situation was reasonable it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

They didn't need to know the cop's name at first. All it would have done is endanger his life.

Yeah, I know. Look at all of the people trying to kill him now that his name is out.


/Oh, wait...

Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean the threat wasn't real.


And stop.

There is no moving forward in this conversation.
 
2014-08-21 02:24:28 PM  

parasol: You seem to be indicating you are either involved with law enforcement training/legal representation or are suffering from schizophrenia


Nope, Nope, And how do you know for sure?
 
2014-08-21 02:25:37 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Yeah, I know. Look at all of the people trying to kill him now that his name is out.


/Oh, wait...


Not sure what else has go on in this thread, but to think that this cop isn't subject to threats/attempts on his life is simply stupid.  He and his family have apparently been moved to a safe location.  Combing through the twitter threats alone could take a long time.

/you must be ate up with the stupid to think that this cop isn't subject to an attempt on his life.
 
2014-08-21 02:26:07 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

The last one especially. If black candidates can't meet the testing and education requirements it isn't the FPD's fault. They shouldn't lower the bar to hire people based on race.


Well, THAT doesn't sound racist in the least!
I expect part of the disparity is the speed in which the demographics of Ferguson changed and the fact that most leo's retire out of a department - I doubt you'd be interested in a 2013 report that this particular department was the target of a whistle-blower on hiring practices - who was then hounded out by his brothers in blue.
Lastly, and I say this with all sincerity on behalf of the black officers in our own little department - one of whom served in the Marines and is one of the most kind and wickedly sharp people I've met - you can take your segregationist-era "they prolly jest aint as smart" bs and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
 
2014-08-21 02:28:01 PM  
 
2014-08-21 02:28:14 PM  

Sammichless: parasol: You seem to be indicating you are either involved with law enforcement training/legal representation or are suffering from schizophrenia

Nope, Nope, And how do you know for sure?


I don't nor need to. I am willing to listen if you need or want to share, though.
 
2014-08-21 02:35:43 PM  

parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

The last one especially. If black candidates can't meet the testing and education requirements it isn't the FPD's fault. They shouldn't lower the bar to hire people based on race.

Well, THAT doesn't sound racist in the least!
I expect part of the disparity is the speed in which the demographics of Ferguson changed and the fact that most leo's retire out of a department - I doubt you'd be interested in a 2013 report that this particular department was the target of a whistle-blower on hiring practices - who was then hounded out by his brothers in blue.
Lastly, and I say this with all sincerity on behalf of the black officers in our own little department - one of whom served in the Marines and is one of the most kind and wickedly sharp people I've met - you can take your segregationist-era "they prolly jest aint as smart" bs and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.


I didn't say anything racist. Tests and requirements are not racist. Changing them or hiring candidates that are not the best applicant's based on race is.
 
2014-08-21 02:44:39 PM  

parasol: Sammichless: parasol: You seem to be indicating you are either involved with law enforcement training/legal representation or are suffering from schizophrenia

Nope, Nope, And how do you know for sure?

I don't nor need to. I am willing to listen if you need or want to share, though.


I DO want to share....... Just like everyone else on Fark.

I am Liberal. I want things to turn out in favor of the Ferguson Community.

NOT JOKING.

Grrrrrr. This case worries me. I am not certain that the officer did wrong. I admit fully that he might have......

But, I think that it is wrong to attach this much importance to the Michael Brown shooting. I am under the seemingly unique position of thinking that it is simply bad press to my beliefs that the police need to be able to do their jobs without race being a factor.
 
2014-08-21 02:48:06 PM  

dr_blasto: Since I'm not going to be party to any GJ - if there even is one convened - I can only speak to the court of public opinion. Or pubic opinion, since we're all dicks out here anyhow.


A grand jury has already been assembled and should have started hearing evidence starting yesterday, unless the schedule has changed.
 
2014-08-21 02:48:19 PM  

Callous: Geoff Peterson: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

bullshiat. he was treated and released the same farking day.

What's bullshiat?  That he was treated and released the same day tells us nothing about his injuries.  The fact that he was treated tells us there was some kind of injury.


No it doesn't. It tells us he wants to establish a record that he was inured in some fashion, not that he actually was. The fact he was treated and released tells us that whatever he claimed happened was NOT serious.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?
 
2014-08-21 02:51:09 PM  

Biological Ali: dr_blasto: Since I'm not going to be party to any GJ - if there even is one convened - I can only speak to the court of public opinion. Or pubic opinion, since we're all dicks out here anyhow.

A grand jury has already been assembled and should have started hearing evidence starting yesterday, unless the schedule has changed.


I missed that, apparently; I didn't know they had gotten to that point, just that the DA was being pressed to prosecute - which didn't require GJ action.
 
2014-08-21 02:55:09 PM  

Sammichless: parasol: Sammichless: parasol: You seem to be indicating you are either involved with law enforcement training/legal representation or are suffering from schizophrenia

Nope, Nope, And how do you know for sure?

I don't nor need to. I am willing to listen if you need or want to share, though.

I DO want to share....... Just like everyone else on Fark.

I am Liberal. I want things to turn out in favor of the Ferguson Community.

NOT JOKING.

Grrrrrr. This case worries me. I am not certain that the officer did wrong. I admit fully that he might have......

But, I think that it is wrong to attach this much importance to the Michael Brown shooting. I am under the seemingly unique position of thinking that it is simply bad press to my beliefs that the police need to be able to do their jobs without race being a factor.


I agree with you that there has been bad press/shoddy reporting
The Brown shooting is important in that it appears to be acting as a catalyst of sorts. We all know singular events can trigger systemic changes.

/sorry i was snippish
//it is too damn hot
///3

i'm out
 
2014-08-21 03:01:41 PM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: It's funny but a lot of people think that him committing a violent felony moments before unimportant. Also no parent will admit they raised a criminal.


The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.
 
2014-08-21 03:04:37 PM  

Geoff Peterson: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: It's funny but a lot of people think that him committing a violent felony moments before unimportant. Also no parent will admit they raised a criminal.

The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.


It is one part of a larger story.  I dont think dismissing or obsessing over the events helps understand this situation.
 
2014-08-21 03:12:07 PM  

Gunny Highway: Geoff Peterson: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: It's funny but a lot of people think that him committing a violent felony moments before unimportant. Also no parent will admit they raised a criminal.

The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

It is one part of a larger story.  I dont think dismissing or obsessing over the events helps understand this situation.


But it has nothing whatsoever to do with if the cop shot an unarmed man holding his hands up.
 
2014-08-21 03:12:18 PM  

Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.


You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?
 
2014-08-21 03:14:36 PM  

Gunny Highway: skrame: Grungehamster: Wilson suffered a severe facial injury...

cameroncrazy1984: Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.

IN HIGH SCHOOL -damn you caps lock- I got punched in the face. I left school early and walked home because I was embarrassed at my black eye. About a month later, my mom asked my what I was doing to my face. Apparently I kept reaching up and pushing it. I didn't realize it, and nothing hurt. She told me to let her have a look. My one eye seemed higher than the other. We went to the doctor and then had x-rays. It turned out to be a fracture of the orbital bone, in three places. Now I have three titanium plates in my head and twelve or thirteen screws. Nothing hurt, my vision was fine, but my skull was dismantled. I'd consider that a severe facial injury that wouldn't have affected my aim.

/didn't carry a gun in high school
//if I did my aim wouldn't matter because we were so close, but the other guy would probably have gotten shot
///unless he carried too; then it would have been a gun fight in economics class instead a food fight gone bad
//it's cool feeling the plates and screws through my skin, but not worth the headaches and other pressure effects
/5-pack of slashies

You think the officer has a black eye?


I got my nose broken in a drunken fight in a Waffle House, my eyes did not go dark until a day later.
 
2014-08-21 03:15:30 PM  

theflatline: Gunny Highway: skrame: Grungehamster: Wilson suffered a severe facial injury...

cameroncrazy1984: Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.

IN HIGH SCHOOL -damn you caps lock- I got punched in the face. I left school early and walked home because I was embarrassed at my black eye. About a month later, my mom asked my what I was doing to my face. Apparently I kept reaching up and pushing it. I didn't realize it, and nothing hurt. She told me to let her have a look. My one eye seemed higher than the other. We went to the doctor and then had x-rays. It turned out to be a fracture of the orbital bone, in three places. Now I have three titanium plates in my head and twelve or thirteen screws. Nothing hurt, my vision was fine, but my skull was dismantled. I'd consider that a severe facial injury that wouldn't have affected my aim.

/didn't carry a gun in high school
//if I did my aim wouldn't matter because we were so close, but the other guy would probably have gotten shot
///unless he carried too; then it would have been a gun fight in economics class instead a food fight gone bad
//it's cool feeling the plates and screws through my skin, but not worth the headaches and other pressure effects
/5-pack of slashies

You think the officer has a black eye?

I got my nose broken in a drunken fight in a Waffle House, my eyes did not go dark until a day later.


Does he have a black eye right now?
 
2014-08-21 03:21:35 PM  

Gunny Highway: theflatline: Gunny Highway: skrame: Grungehamster: Wilson suffered a severe facial injury...

cameroncrazy1984: Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.

IN HIGH SCHOOL -damn you caps lock- I got punched in the face. I left school early and walked home because I was embarrassed at my black eye. About a month later, my mom asked my what I was doing to my face. Apparently I kept reaching up and pushing it. I didn't realize it, and nothing hurt. She told me to let her have a look. My one eye seemed higher than the other. We went to the doctor and then had x-rays. It turned out to be a fracture of the orbital bone, in three places. Now I have three titanium plates in my head and twelve or thirteen screws. Nothing hurt, my vision was fine, but my skull was dismantled. I'd consider that a severe facial injury that wouldn't have affected my aim.

/didn't carry a gun in high school
//if I did my aim wouldn't matter because we were so close, but the other guy would probably have gotten shot
///unless he carried too; then it would have been a gun fight in economics class instead a food fight gone bad
//it's cool feeling the plates and screws through my skin, but not worth the headaches and other pressure effects
/5-pack of slashies

You think the officer has a black eye?

I got my nose broken in a drunken fight in a Waffle House, my eyes did not go dark until a day later.

Does he have a black eye right now?


Time will tell. The masses were quick to say gentle giant, shot in the back, etc....
 
2014-08-21 03:22:16 PM  

theflatline: Gunny Highway: theflatline: Gunny Highway: skrame: Grungehamster: Wilson suffered a severe facial injury...

cameroncrazy1984: Lol. Yeah adrenaline makes your dominant eye that is shattered have perfect aim.

IN HIGH SCHOOL -damn you caps lock- I got punched in the face. I left school early and walked home because I was embarrassed at my black eye. About a month later, my mom asked my what I was doing to my face. Apparently I kept reaching up and pushing it. I didn't realize it, and nothing hurt. She told me to let her have a look. My one eye seemed higher than the other. We went to the doctor and then had x-rays. It turned out to be a fracture of the orbital bone, in three places. Now I have three titanium plates in my head and twelve or thirteen screws. Nothing hurt, my vision was fine, but my skull was dismantled. I'd consider that a severe facial injury that wouldn't have affected my aim.

/didn't carry a gun in high school
//if I did my aim wouldn't matter because we were so close, but the other guy would probably have gotten shot
///unless he carried too; then it would have been a gun fight in economics class instead a food fight gone bad
//it's cool feeling the plates and screws through my skin, but not worth the headaches and other pressure effects
/5-pack of slashies

You think the officer has a black eye?

I got my nose broken in a drunken fight in a Waffle House, my eyes did not go dark until a day later.

Does he have a black eye right now?

Time will tell. The masses were quick to say gentle giant, shot in the back, etc....


Why havent we seen the officer yet?
 
2014-08-21 03:22:58 PM  

theflatline: I got my nose broken in a drunken fight in a Waffle House, my eyes did not go dark until a day later.


I think we found Kid Rock's Fark handle.
 
2014-08-21 03:27:29 PM  

rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?


This! It could have easily effected Brown's state of mind
 
2014-08-21 03:31:04 PM  

rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?


I like how you go right to the ad hominem. Whatever the guy did...he could have strangled someone, has no bearing on wether the cop was justified in shooting the farker. It is irrelevant. Like you said, it speaks to his state of mind, and maybe demonstrates that it is more likely he attacked the cop, but is irrelevant to if the cop shot a kid who was not (or no longer) resisting farking arrest. Most (all?) witnesses are saying the guy had his hands up in a surrender and was not on top of the cop actively attacking him and had no weapon, so distance is an absolute factor. WTF is wrong with you??
 
2014-08-21 03:34:13 PM  

parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

The last one especially. If black candidates can't meet the testing and education requirements it isn't the FPD's fault. They shouldn't lower the bar to hire people based on race.

Well, THAT doesn't sound racist in the least!
I expect part of the disparity is the speed in which the demographics of Ferguson changed and the fact that most leo's retire out of a department - I doubt you'd be interested in a 2013 report that this particular department was the target of a whistle-blower on hiring practices - who was then hounded out by his brothers in blue.
Lastly, and I say this with all sincerity on behalf of the black officers in our own little department - one of whom served in the Marines and is one of the most kind and wickedly sharp people I've met - you can take your segregationist-era "they prolly jest aint as smart" bs and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.


In Ferguson, they should lower the bar to hire LEOs based on race, for reasons which by now ought to be evident to everyone.  But to pretend that there aren't large racial disparities in results on written exams to become LEOs (or firefighters, or civil servants, or you name it) is just ignorant.  You can read up on the Chicago disparate impact litigation, from the plaintiffs' perspective, here.

http://www.kenlaw.com/representative/discrimination.html

There's a whole cottage industry in this country designed to get around racial difference in test scores.  Here's a book by one of the industry's leading lights, James L Outtz.  You might want to check it out.

http://www.psypress.com/books/details/9780805863741/
 
2014-08-21 03:36:42 PM  

jst3p: That still doesn't make them journalists. Press pass or GTFO.


You say this like you imagine a press pass to be a formal industry certification, like a medical or bar license.  It's not.  It's basically analogous to a back-stage pass.  You abso-farking-lutely do not need one to report on events in public places, nor do you need one to enjoy the first amendment protections afforded to the press.  It's not a license, it's certainly not a thing that delineates "legitimate" journalists from "mere bloggers".
 
2014-08-21 03:36:55 PM  

Grungehamster: LucklessWonder: BlindRaise: What would you call a night with only 6 arrests in Chicago?

What does 6 arrests work out as a per capita rate in Chicago vs. Ferguson?

/Genuinely curious
//Can't check populations at work, Wiki blocked.

2013 Population Estimates per Wiki
Ferguson - 21,111
Chicago - 2,718,782

So just under 773 arrests to be comparable.


Although... current population of Ferguson with protestors and media in from out of town has doubled...
 
2014-08-21 03:43:01 PM  

Geoff Peterson: maybe demonstrates that it is more likely he attacked the cop, but is irrelevant to if the cop shot a kid who was not (or no longer) resisting farking arrest. Most (all?) witnesses are saying the guy had his hands up in a surrender and was not on top of the cop actively attacking him and had no weapon, so distance is an absolute factor. WTF is wrong with you??


If, and it is a big if, that M. Brown attacked the police officer, his robbery of the store minutes before could be a motive.  The robbery establishes motive.  The witnesses tend to agree that there was a fight in the police car and that the officer's gun discharged in the police car.

Understand that in the middle this very fast developing event, we have a policeman in an fight with 292 pound man who had just robbed a store and the policeman's gun is discharging in his car during that struggle - you have a situation where deadly force is involved and had already been deployed.  All of those things are incredibly relevant to the events that happened next in a VERY SHORT period of time.

which are what?  M. Brown was not shot in the back - he was facing the officer.  The question is did M. Brown attempt to surrender or was it reasonable that the policeman continued to think his life was in danger and was it reasonable for the policeman to think it was.

/There isn't a freeze or Kings-X where you get to ignore all of the interconnected facts and events that led to the shooting.
 
2014-08-21 03:43:10 PM  

Geoff Peterson: rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?

I like how you go right to the ad hominem. Whatever the guy did...he could have strangled someone, has no bearing on wether the cop was justified in shooting the farker. It is irrelevant. Like you said, it speaks to his state of mind, and maybe demonstrates that it is more likely he attacked the cop, but is irrelevant to if the cop shot a kid who was not (or no longer) resisting farking arrest. Most (all?) witnesses are saying the guy had his hands up in a surrender and was not on top of the cop actively attacking him and had no weapon, so distance is an absolute factor. WTF is wrong with you??


Didn't you just agree with him?

Also, I think you're misusing the ad hominen objection.  If you make a claim, and I say you're stupid/biased/dishonest/racist, and therefore wrong, that's an ad hominen.  If I point out five logical or evidence-based reasons that you are wrong and then say only an idiot would have made your argument, well then I'm certainly a jerk, but I don't think I've committed the ad hominen fallacy.  But others may know better.
 
2014-08-21 03:48:58 PM  

rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: maybe demonstrates that it is more likely he attacked the cop, but is irrelevant to if the cop shot a kid who was not (or no longer) resisting farking arrest. Most (all?) witnesses are saying the guy had his hands up in a surrender and was not on top of the cop actively attacking him and had no weapon, so distance is an absolute factor. WTF is wrong with you??

If, and it is a big if, that M. Brown attacked the police officer, his robbery of the store minutes before could be a motive.  The robbery establishes motive.  The witnesses tend to agree that there was a fight in the police car and that the officer's gun discharged in the police car.

Understand that in the middle this very fast developing event, we have a policeman in an fight with 292 pound man who had just robbed a store and the policeman's gun is discharging in his car during that struggle - you have a situation where deadly force is involved and had already been deployed.  All of those things are incredibly relevant to the events that happened next in a VERY SHORT period of time.

which are what?  M. Brown was not shot in the back - he was facing the officer.  The question is did M. Brown attempt to surrender or was it reasonable that the policeman continued to think his life was in danger and was it reasonable for the policeman to think it was.

/There isn't a freeze or Kings-X where you get to ignore all of the interconnected facts and events that led to the shooting.


And we should have his juvenile record released.  I wish when I turned 18 I could have gotten a free pass for being an asshole.
 
2014-08-21 04:03:11 PM  

rinasaunce: The question is did M. Brown attempt to surrender or was it reasonable that the policeman continued to think his life was in danger and was it reasonable for the policeman to think it was.


keypusher: Didn't you just agree with him?


Yeah I did. You guys are misunderstanding me. If the cop had good cause to ventilate the kid, so be it. If the kid was pounding his head in, I can certainly see the cop killing the kid. If the kid was pounding the shiat out of the cop, and then surrendered and the cop shot him anyway, the cop is guilty of manslaughter at least. Anything that happened before that (even the kid beating the cop up) is irrelevant.

I'm not saying the cop is guilty and I'm not saying the kid is guilty. I am saying that the acts that happened in that span of probably less than 30 seconds is whats important and anything else is a distraction.
 
2014-08-21 04:11:57 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: LazyMedia: Your blog doesn't make you media. Get a job.

People have made millions of dollars from their blogs.


Yes, and that makes you a blogger, not a journalist.
 
2014-08-21 04:12:02 PM  

theflatline: And we should have his juvenile record released.  I wish when I turned 18 I could have gotten a free pass for being an asshole.


Hey, you've made it this far, so it looks like you got a better pass for being an asshole than the dead dude.
 
2014-08-21 04:13:09 PM  
I'm seeing some reports on websites, that are admittedly not reliable, that surveillance video shows Brown paying for the cigars, any reputable sources for that?
 
2014-08-21 04:16:28 PM  

Geoff Peterson: I am saying that the acts that happened in that span of probably less than 30 seconds is whats important and anything else is a distraction.


You said "irrelevant strawman" earlier which was pejorative.  Again, the focus will be broader than simply the last seconds of what was a very short and violent incident.  Once a policeman is punched and a gun is discharged, if the cop was running after M. Brown and M. Brown turns to face him that distance could have closed very quickly and in seconds.....  so yes, the entire DAY of both men will be reviewed and certainly the robbery which occurred minutes before will be relevant.
 
2014-08-21 04:17:00 PM  
HideAndGoFarkYourself

...any reputable sources for that?

Not yet. So far it's, as you say, "admittedly not reliable." Seems to mostly consist of unsubstantiated reports that the police video was edited...when in fact, it's actually longer than the "proof!" video, which is definitely edited with bias in mind.

The weird thing IMO is that, say, CNN isn't (AFAIK) mentioning it, but they have mentioned "reports confirmed by, you know, someone" that Wilson was injured fighting Brown to an extent that would justify shooting Brown to stop him. Seems a little lop-sided.
 
2014-08-21 04:19:05 PM  

HideAndGoFarkYourself: I'm seeing some reports on websites, that are admittedly not reliable, that surveillance video shows Brown paying for the cigars, any reputable sources for that?


Here is the thread with a link to the video. All it shows is that it's possible he could have paid for them. What it looks like to me:

1) Brown gets a pack of Swisher Sweets from the cashier, passes them back to Jackson.
2) Brown talks to the cashier, moving a hand onto/past the portion of the counter visible on the video with enough time off-screen to conceivably pay for something.
3) Brown brings his hands back with several items from the other side of the counter; some fall out of his hand on the floor.
4) Jackson places the box of Swisher Sweets he was handed back on the counter and Brown appears to give back the items he still has as well (his hand passes the range of the camera and I don't see anything in it when he brings it back down to his side, but it's his left hand which is partially obscured and the video is standard security quality AKA poor).
5) Brown bends down and starts picking up the dropped items.
6) Clerk walks out from behind counter around Brown to the front door, not attempting to pick up the items or stop Brown at this point.
7) Brown gets up with the items he picked up and heads for the door.
 
2014-08-21 04:20:10 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: HideAndGoFarkYourself

...any reputable sources for that?

Not yet. So far it's, as you say, "admittedly not reliable." Seems to mostly consist of unsubstantiated reports that the police video was edited...when in fact, it's actually longer than the "proof!" video, which is definitely edited with bias in mind.

The weird thing IMO is that, say, CNN isn't (AFAIK) mentioning it, but they have mentioned "reports confirmed by, you know, someone" that Wilson was injured fighting Brown to an extent that would justify shooting Brown to stop him. Seems a little lop-sided.


The internets' dumbest man posted his pile o vomit earlier than the "guy paid for cigars" storyline. That this injury tale was already discredited before CNN or FOXnews picked it up is funny, but also might mean you'll see that storyline in another week.
 
2014-08-21 04:21:10 PM  

HideAndGoFarkYourself: I'm seeing some reports on websites, that are admittedly not reliable, that surveillance video shows Brown paying for the cigars, any reputable sources for that?


None that I am aware of - watch the video.  If M. Brown did pay, why did the clerk pursue him and M. Brown manhandle the clerk?  Why did his friend, D. Johnson admit that M. Brown robbed the store?  Someone from the store also immediately called 911....

/I think some people desperately want there to not be a store robbery - The attorney for M. Brown claimed it was "character assassination" when the video was released.
 
2014-08-21 04:22:29 PM  

Grungehamster: HideAndGoFarkYourself: I'm seeing some reports on websites, that are admittedly not reliable, that surveillance video shows Brown paying for the cigars, any reputable sources for that?

Here is the thread with a link to the video. All it shows is that it's possible he could have paid for them. What it looks like to me:

1) Brown gets a pack of Swisher Sweets from the cashier, passes them back to Jackson.
2) Brown talks to the cashier, moving a hand onto/past the portion of the counter visible on the video with enough time off-screen to conceivably pay for something.
3) Brown brings his hands back with several items from the other side of the counter; some fall out of his hand on the floor.
4) Jackson places the box of Swisher Sweets he was handed back on the counter and Brown appears to give back the items he still has as well (his hand passes the range of the camera and I don't see anything in it when he brings it back down to his side, but it's his left hand which is partially obscured and the video is standard security quality AKA poor).
5) Brown bends down and starts picking up the dropped items.
6) Clerk walks out from behind counter around Brown to the front door, not attempting to pick up the items or stop Brown at this point.
7) Brown gets up with the items he picked up and heads for the door.


where's the scuffle between the two of them? I never saw the video.
 
2014-08-21 04:22:43 PM  

rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?


I see M Brown is being tried by the public

I wonder if an attorney could argue his *prior bad acts* as the perpetrator in a  *closed* case should not be evidence in a criminal case defending Ofc Wilson's actions.
 
2014-08-21 04:24:11 PM  
dr_blasto

where's the scuffle between the two of them? I never saw the video.

Whoever made the "proof there was no robbery" video cut it off.
 
2014-08-21 04:25:17 PM  

Grungehamster: 6) Clerk walks out from behind counter around Brown to the front door, not attempting to pick up the items or stop Brown at this point.
7) Brown gets up with the items he picked up and heads for the door.


Where in this narrative is the step where Brown grabs the clerk and shoves him against a rack?

And then when the clerk reapproaches Brown, where is the step where M. Brown advances on the clerk as if to beat him so the clerk flinches in fear and cowers?

Why was 911 called immediately afterwards reporting a store robbery?

AND WHY did D. Johnson admit M. Brown robbed the store?

/really?
 
2014-08-21 04:26:03 PM  

rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: I am saying that the acts that happened in that span of probably less than 30 seconds is whats important and anything else is a distraction.

You said "irrelevant strawman" earlier which was pejorative.  Again, the focus will be broader than simply the last seconds of what was a very short and violent incident.  Once a policeman is punched and a gun is discharged, if the cop was running after M. Brown and M. Brown turns to face him that distance could have closed very quickly and in seconds.....  so yes, the entire DAY of both men will be reviewed and certainly the robbery which occurred minutes before will be relevant.


Sure...if you're wanting to come up with an excuse for murder, absolutely.
 
2014-08-21 04:31:05 PM  

parasol: I see M Brown is being tried by the public

I wonder if an attorney could argue his *prior bad acts* as the perpetrator in a  *closed* case should not be evidence in a criminal case defending Ofc Wilson's actions.


I think both the officer and M. Brown are being tried by the public.

M. Brown's actions on the store are relevant but not determinative.  As for prior bad acts being excluded, this act occurred minutes before the officer pulled over M. Brown and goes to M. Brown's possible motive in his interactions with the officer.  The criminal case, if any, will be charging the officer.  The officer's prior bad acts, unless a pattern was established, would be excluded.  The bad act of the victim having occurred so close to his death by the officer's gun will not be excluded.
 
2014-08-21 04:34:15 PM  

Geoff Peterson: Sure...if you're wanting to come up with an excuse for murder, absolutely.


What?  I think the prosecutor, the grand jury, the police, the feds and the attorney for the officer would like to understand everything that led up to and happened during the events.  Were you aware that D. Johnson was also wanted on an outstanding warrant?

If he were your witness for the prosection, wouldn't you want to know that fact?

/I take it you have no idea what attorney's do in a court room....
 
2014-08-21 04:37:24 PM  

dr_blasto: where's the scuffle between the two of them? I never saw the video.


rinasaunce: Grungehamster: 6) Clerk walks out from behind counter around Brown to the front door, not attempting to pick up the items or stop Brown at this point.
7) Brown gets up with the items he picked up and heads for the door.

Where in this narrative is the step where Brown grabs the clerk and shoves him against a rack?

And then when the clerk reapproaches Brown, where is the step where M. Brown advances on the clerk as if to beat him so the clerk flinches in fear and cowers?

Why was 911 called immediately afterwards reporting a store robbery?

AND WHY did D. Johnson admit M. Brown robbed the store?

/really?


It's not the same camera that caught the altercation. The camera on the counter is angled slightly down from on top of the door, so Brown has already moved past the field of vision of it when he's stopped. It's another video that shows him try to leave, get grabbed by the clerk, push the clerk away, and then physically threaten him. Crooks & Liars tries to claim "hey, maybe their argument was unrelated to the goods being stolen" but I find that laughable. And yes: Johnson's lawyer admitted Brown stole the cigars.

I should have also copy/pasted the first half of that post from me in the link; I think anyone genuinely arguing he didn't steal anything is crazy. It might provide evidence that he didn't get the cigarettes initially through force but rather deception (which doesn't disagree with the police report), but him not stealing them at all strains credulity to the breaking point. I'm just pointing out what can be seen on the video, which definitely isn't any clear sign money changed hands and they appear to return all the items to the cashier after holding them except for the ones that had dropped; that he dropped the exact amount he paid for is also pretty strange to imagine.
 
2014-08-21 04:39:42 PM  

keypusher: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

The last one especially. If black candidates can't meet the testing and education requirements it isn't the FPD's fault. They shouldn't lower the bar to hire people based on race.

Well, THAT doesn't sound racist in the least!
I expect part of the disparity is the speed in which the demographics of Ferguson changed and the fact that most leo's retire out of a department - I doubt you'd be interested in a 2013 report that this particular department was the target of a whistle-blower on hiring practices - who was then hounded out by his brothers in blue.
Lastly, and I say this with all sincerity on behalf of the black officers in our own little department - one of whom served in the Marines and is one of the most kind and wickedly sharp people I've met - you can take your segregationist-era "they prolly jest aint as smart" bs and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

In Ferguson, they should lower the bar to hire LEOs based on race, for reasons which by now ought to be evident to everyone.  But to pretend that there aren't large racial disparities in results on written exams to become LEOs (or firefighters, or civil servants, or you name it) is just ignorant.  You can read up on the Chicago disparate impact litigation, from the plaintiffs' perspective, here.

http://www.kenlaw.com/representative/d ...


The original point was the protestor's list of demands. The last one demands a change to the racial imbalance in the dept - it says nothing about lowering or changing standards in any way.

Not one peep about changing hiring practices  - someone went there immediately, assuming something slightly negative about black applicants' ability to qualify under current standards. But, that can't be racist.

When people say "we have a culture problem" this is what they mean.

You're backing it up to prove his point is illustrative of our schools malfunctioning which is a whole other topic.
 
2014-08-21 04:42:15 PM  

rinasaunce: What? I think the prosecutor, the grand jury, the police, the feds and the attorney for the officer would like to understand everything that led up to and happened during the events. Were you aware that D. Johnson was also wanted on an outstanding warrant?

If he were your witness for the prosection, wouldn't you want to know that fact?

/I take it you have no idea what attorney's do in a court room....


I've already said that if the kid was attacking the cop, he would be justified in killing the kid. I also think eye witness testimony will tell the tale, by and large. I think the cops testimony will be worth 10 nubian testifiers as it always has been, and I think the cop will get a walk.

I think it is highly unlikely (but not impossible) that someone getting ready to start the next phase of his life would strong arm rob and then assault a cop and continue to advance on a cop after a cop draws his weapon and threatens to shoot him. It makes no sense.

Also stop trying to imply I am mentally deficient if you don't even know how to use an apostrophe, asshole.
 
2014-08-21 04:47:03 PM  
parasol

The original point was the protestor's list of demands. The last one demands a change to the racial imbalance in the dept - it says nothing about lowering or changing standards in any way.

I'm not being facetious when I ask this...how exactly would that be accomplished? I mean, I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that we're looking at three possibilities here: not many black residents apply, not many black residents are qualified/pass, or the people in charge of hiring are just racists.

The last one is its own thing, but how do you really fix the first two? If the former, my best suggestion at the moment is using some of their toy budget to maybe recruit elsewhere...
 
2014-08-21 04:47:38 PM  

parasol: keypusher: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

The last one especially. If black candidates can't meet the testing and education requirements it isn't the FPD's fault. They shouldn't lower the bar to hire people based on race.

Well, THAT doesn't sound racist in the least!
I expect part of the disparity is the speed in which the demographics of Ferguson changed and the fact that most leo's retire out of a department - I doubt you'd be interested in a 2013 report that this particular department was the target of a whistle-blower on hiring practices - who was then hounded out by his brothers in blue.
Lastly, and I say this with all sincerity on behalf of the black officers in our own little department - one of whom served in the Marines and is one of the most kind and wickedly sharp people I've met - you can take your segregationist-era "they prolly jest aint as smart" bs and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

In Ferguson, they should lower the bar to hire LEOs based on race, for reasons which by now ought to be evident to everyone.  But to pretend that there aren't large racial disparities in results on written exams to become LEOs (or firefighters, or civil servants, or you name it) is just ignorant.  You can read up on the Chicago disparate impact litigation, from the plaintiffs' perspective, here.

http://www.kenlaw.com/repre ...[snip]

- someone went there immediately, assuming something slightly negative about black applicants' ability to qualify under current standards. But, that can't be racist.

When people say "we have a culture problem" this is what they mean.

You're backing it up to prove his point is illustrative of our schools malfunctioning which is a whole other topic.


Right, and you said that anyone thinking that there would be a disparity is a racist asshole, because YOU know a smart black LEO.  Not very sound reasoning, though I'm reluctant to blame the schools for it.
 
2014-08-21 04:51:19 PM  

rinasaunce: AND WHY did D. Johnson admit M. Brown robbed the store?


So, you find D. Johnson to be a reliable witness? Good to know.

rinasaunce: The officer's prior bad acts, unless a pattern was established, would be excluded.


"GET THE F*CK ON THE SIDEWALK."
 
2014-08-21 04:55:37 PM  

Geoff Peterson: I think it is highly unlikely (but not impossible) that someone getting ready to start the next phase of his life would strong arm rob


Well, M. Brown did do that.....  he strong arm robbed the store.  It might not make any sense to you but it happens.  Daily it seems (like college athletes, of all color, who assault girlfriends or strangers, rob stores, even a Heisman trophy winner who stole king crab).  Maybe you should read more...

Geoff Peterson: Also stop trying to imply I am mentally deficient if you don't even know how to use an apostrophe, asshole.


I did not imply it, I stated it outright.  Perhaps it simply takes one to know one.

/us mentally deficient assholes should stick together.
 
2014-08-21 04:57:16 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: dr_blasto

where's the scuffle between the two of them? I never saw the video.

Whoever made the "proof there was no robbery" video cut it off.


Well that certainly helps that argument.
 
2014-08-21 05:02:41 PM  

rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?


Funny in all of this, nobody asks what the cop did to deserve the beating?

I mean, people don't just walk up to cops and cave their faces in, he must have said SOMETHING to set off Mr. Brown, and I'm sure this all could have been avoided if the cop had just watched his mouth.

(It doesn't sound any less stupid when you say it about Michael Brown).
 
2014-08-21 05:04:49 PM  

rinasaunce: parasol: I see M Brown is being tried by the public

I wonder if an attorney could argue his *prior bad acts* as the perpetrator in a  *closed* case should not be evidence in a criminal case defending Ofc Wilson's actions.

I think both the officer and M. Brown are being tried by the public.

M. Brown's actions on the store are relevant but not determinative.  As for prior bad acts being excluded, this act occurred minutes before the officer pulled over M. Brown and goes to M. Brown's possible motive in his interactions with the officer.  The criminal case, if any, will be charging the officer.  The officer's prior bad acts, unless a pattern was established, would be excluded.  The bad act of the victim having occurred so close to his death by the officer's gun will not be excluded.


I remember this part from the Zimmerman threads.

Everyone was a cross between Perry Mason and Sherlock Holmes with a dash of the CSI cast for emphasis.

I guess, like Zimmerman, we will find out in the end what the strategies are
 
2014-08-21 05:06:40 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: So, you find D. Johnson to be a reliable witness? Good to know.


His credibility would be higher had he mentioned the robbery immediately - instead of doing so later.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: "GET THE F*CK ON THE SIDEWALK."


Man, the cop really wanted them on the sidewalk!!
 
2014-08-21 05:10:55 PM  

udhq: Funny in all of this, nobody asks what the cop did to deserve the beating?

I mean, people don't just walk up to cops and cave their faces in, he must have said SOMETHING to set off Mr. Brown, and I'm sure this all could have been avoided if the cop had just watched his mouth.

(It doesn't sound any less stupid when you say it about Michael Brown).


Actually, I think you are exactly right to question - how DID this escalate so quickly?   D. Johnson's initial statement said he and M. Brown "didn't do nothing to nobody", the cop and M. Brown had a fight over the door and then boom.

Everyone seems to agree there was a shot in the car - was there a fight in the car?  I have no clue.....  Why was the officer's gun drawn??????
 
2014-08-21 05:15:25 PM  

rinasaunce: udhq: Funny in all of this, nobody asks what the cop did to deserve the beating?

I mean, people don't just walk up to cops and cave their faces in, he must have said SOMETHING to set off Mr. Brown, and I'm sure this all could have been avoided if the cop had just watched his mouth.

(It doesn't sound any less stupid when you say it about Michael Brown).

Actually, I think you are exactly right to question - how DID this escalate so quickly?   D. Johnson's initial statement said he and M. Brown "didn't do nothing to nobody", the cop and M. Brown had a fight over the door and then boom.

Everyone seems to agree there was a shot in the car - was there a fight in the car?  I have no clue.....  Why was the officer's gun drawn??????


It doesn't matter what the cop said. Nothing anyone says permits you to attack them
 
2014-08-21 05:21:57 PM  

parasol: rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?

I see M Brown is being tried by the public

I wonder if an attorney could argue his *prior bad acts* as the perpetrator in a  *closed* case should not be evidence in a criminal case defending Ofc Wilson's actions.


Not if the "closed" case is a direct result of the actions in the case the guy is on trial for.  Typically a motion in limine, which is about the only thing I can think of that would apply, refers to a defendant and only for evidence which would prejudice a jury to him.  Wilson's state of mind, and the state of mind of the deceased are essential in proving your case beyond a reasonable doubt, or acquitting by planting reasonable doubt.  Any attempt by a judge to block testimony about the armed robbery that ultimately likely caused the confrontation would be struck down on appeal.
 
2014-08-21 05:23:58 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: parasol

The original point was the protestor's list of demands. The last one demands a change to the racial imbalance in the dept - it says nothing about lowering or changing standards in any way.

I'm not being facetious when I ask this...how exactly would that be accomplished? I mean, I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that we're looking at three possibilities here: not many black residents apply, not many black residents are qualified/pass, or the people in charge of hiring are just racists.

The last one is its own thing, but how do you really fix the first two? If the former, my best suggestion at the moment is using some of their toy budget to maybe recruit elsewhere...


sure

Offer qualifying officers early retirement and have council approve outlay to cover gap - that frees up space and the budget (long term = top pay) to hire add'l officers (first step);  in a pinch it is also possible to hire several part time officers - this also frees up budget space while increasing visible changes to the dept
Advertise openings widely - the residents did not demand "hire locals only" - if they truly, positively can't find one single black applicant who qualifies there are larger issues than we know of;
Begin a neighborhood familiarity program - one here was called "broken widows" or something - or hell, crime watch - that officers attend alongside with residents.

None of it matters now, this Department won't be around in two years. Lawsuits and o/t pay are going to eat the budget of a small tax base and, apparently, the Feds are unhappy. The people of Ferguson will likely be covered by another muni's pd - and, in that? they may get that last demand after all
 
2014-08-21 05:36:04 PM  

keypusher: parasol: keypusher: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

The last one especially. If black candidates can't meet the testing and education requirements it isn't the FPD's fault. They shouldn't lower the bar to hire people based on race.

Right, and you said that anyone thinking that there would be a disparity is a racist asshole, because YOU know a smart black LEO.  Not very sound reasoning, though I'm reluctant to blame the schools for it.


Actually, I didn't say that at all - I said it sounded racist (it did) and that mindset was outdated and should be unwelcome and disposed of.  Nor did he say there would be a disparity - he said they'd have to lower/change standards to accommodate an entire group, not that there might be fewer passing candidates under the current standard.

I know a number of smart people, none them are the reason I disliked that post,

Can we move on?  This is hours old.
 
2014-08-21 06:53:19 PM  

dr_blasto: Facetious_Speciest: dr_blasto

where's the scuffle between the two of them? I never saw the video.

Whoever made the "proof there was no robbery" video cut it off.

Well that certainly helps that argument.


You have been in these threads for the the past few days, yet you never saw the robbery video? it was released first.  You sir are full of shiat.
 
2014-08-21 07:25:46 PM  

theflatline: dr_blasto: Facetious_Speciest: dr_blasto

where's the scuffle between the two of them? I never saw the video.

Whoever made the "proof there was no robbery" video cut it off.

Well that certainly helps that argument.

You have been in these threads for the the past few days, yet you never saw the robbery video? it was released first.  You sir are full of shiat.


I mostly use my phone or work. I really don't get to click video links and only saw the still pictures and what people related from watching.
 
2014-08-21 09:32:47 PM  

Geoff Peterson: rinasaunce: What? I think the prosecutor, the grand jury, the police, the feds and the attorney for the officer would like to understand everything that led up to and happened during the events. Were you aware that D. Johnson was also wanted on an outstanding warrant?

If he were your witness for the prosection, wouldn't you want to know that fact?

/I take it you have no idea what attorney's do in a court room....

I've already said that if the kid was attacking the cop, he would be justified in killing the kid. I also think eye witness testimony will tell the tale, by and large. I think the cops testimony will be worth 10 nubian testifiers as it always has been, and I think the cop will get a walk.

I think it is highly unlikely (but not impossible) that someone getting ready to start the next phase of his life would strong arm rob and then assault a cop and continue to advance on a cop after a cop draws his weapon and threatens to shoot him. It makes no sense.

Also stop trying to imply I am mentally deficient if you don't even know how to use an apostrophe, asshole.


Problem is almost every eye witness testimony aside from the one who has already proven to be a liar (his friend) and maybe one other, saw the events after the gun shots started.  The entire question of motive for the officer happens prior to the first bullet going off, and the few notes we've gotten have indicated at least something of a struggle (altercation at the car with brown being pulled towards it if I have my facts correct from the one who said they saw but couldn't hear everything).
 
2014-08-22 01:10:46 AM  

HAMMERTOE: b0rg9: Is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?

Don't you know, you could make more money as a butcher.


So don't you waste your time...
 
2014-08-22 01:28:19 AM  

Pull the Plug on Grannie: iremo: All of the these things are of course possible! Whether they fall within the purview of reasonable doubt should be decided by a jury. At a trial. After they indict the guy for second-degree murder.

What's wrong with letting the grand jury to their job? If there is clear evidence of Wilson's facial injury + corroboration from witnesses that be was bum-rushed, why would you drag Wilson through a trial? What if he really was in fear for his life and feels like a pile of shiat about it? What does a trial accomplish if there's a 99.99% chance he will be found innocent?


Because Grand Juries are the exception rather than the rule for felony prosecutions in Missouri.  Wilson would be entitled to a  preliminary hearing if he was prosecuted by filing of a complaint instead of a grand jury indictment.  A  preliminary hearing where he could be present for all of the testimony and could confront and cross examine witnesses,  have the assistance of counsel present with him throughout the proceedings and introduce his own evidence challenging the existence of probable cause, none of which is true of a grand jury proceeding, would probably be more favorable to Wilson if he is indeed innocent of any crime.  I think the prosecutor is going to drag the grand jury proceedings out which of course will be secret as is required by law.  That might leave Wilson twisting in the wind until October while the political officeholders get to avoid any responsibility and public accountability for the case.
 
2014-08-22 01:33:18 AM  

parasol: Callous: jst3p: Callous: dr_blasto: I'll buy the broken face story when the hospital confirms the ER admission and releases what they certify as the cop's CT or Xray scans. Too much bullshiat to buy anything about it now, they have zero cred.

So the only proof that you'll accept requires a criminal act on the hospital's part to provide it to you?

Are you that ignorant or are you just trying so hard to hang on to your narrative that you are willing to demand the impossible so as not to have to reconsider it?

The way I see it, if there was extensive damage to the cops face they would have released pictures as soon as possible because it would provide support that the shooting was justified. They probably would have released them at the same time as the still images of Michael tossing the store clerk around for maximum effect.

I realize I could be wrong but until I see  anyevidence of Brown assaulting the cop I am going to believe he didn't.

But blasto is demanding that the release comes certified from the hospital.  Last I knew it's illegal for doctors or hospitals to release medical records. without patient's permission


Or pursuant to a subpoena or other specified legal authorizations specified in HIPPA.
 
2014-08-22 01:39:34 AM  

rinasaunce: Geoff Peterson: The fact that you think it is important shows you to be easily distracted and lacking reasoning ability.

/It's an irrelevant strawman.

You are a very silly man.  The fact that a person, any person, who was involved in an altercation with a police officer was just leaving the scene of a strong arm robbery is absolutely relevant.  It goes to the immediate actions of M. Brown prior to the incident and it reflects his state of mind.

It is clearly not determinative, but only an imbecile would say it is an irrelevant strawman.

/critical thinking
//how does it work?


So releasing all of Wilson's records is necessary to evaluate his state of mind as well, right?  Not just the 'he's never been disciplined" statement but all of the records including any complaints since Brown was never afforded an opportunity to contest the robbery accusation, it's certainly fair to release any records where Wilson was afforded such an opportunity.
 
2014-08-22 07:48:45 AM  

Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: parasol: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: Grungehamster: Land_of_the_Magic_Dragon: they were demanding a lynching.

Umm, I must have missed that. Here was the list of demands when this first started, distributed by flyer at the protests:

- The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
- The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
- The Ferguson Police Department "Protocol Handbook" be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
- The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.

Now I think murder would be a difficult thing to try to convict him with (manslaughter is much more reasonable if you do believe that he did do wrong in this case) and the union ain't going to let any cop be fired until actually convicted. I also think that asking the racial composition of the force to match the community is an exercise in futility: if you have evidence of bias in hiring or promoting practices then go after that but trying to make it "equal" isn't going to do anyone much good. However none of those things were demanding his death without trial.

Someone got shot in broad daylight unarmed from several yards away while unarmed with multiple witnesses saying at the scene that he wasn't posing a threat to the officer when it happened. The police department response was "we will not release the name of the officer involved; he will face an internal review if he acted properly and will file charges if we find he acted criminally" with no promises to even let anyone know anything if the internal review cleared the officer. Do you see why the Weeners was protests, and how the crackdown on the protests that didn't attempt to discriminate between the protesters and the rioters just got people more angry?

If you feel those are reasonable demands it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.

You haven't negotiated much, have you?

Considering that every de ...


I love it when right wing nuts suddenly hide behind a union. But only when it is the cops, mind you.If this were a bus driver being protected by a CBA after running down a grandmother at a street crossing, you can bet we'd be hearing about how  evil those damn government employee unions are. Authoritarian hypocrites.

stan unusual: Not just the 'he's never been disciplined" statement


And considering the policy under the previous police chief was that all non-lethal confrontations that officers were involved in were investigated by the officer himself, and that the record was attached to the case file, NOT the officer's file, making finding them a herculean effort that could not have been completed yet...
 
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