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(New Scientist)   Crowd-control policing is changing in Europe, but the US is stuck in riot mode   (newscientist.com) divider line 44
    More: Followup, University of Sussex, containment, social identity, University of St Andrews, batons, police violence, social psychologist, University of Leeds  
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1614 clicks; posted to Geek » on 21 Aug 2014 at 9:30 AM (13 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



44 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-08-21 08:12:33 AM  
Land of the free, biatches!

www.newscientist.com
 
2014-08-21 09:44:18 AM  
Outstanding article.

Thanks, Subby.
 
2014-08-21 09:44:33 AM  
This is why I have been studing electrifying the roads.  You set up a current in the road which the cars use for drive power, no need for an IC engine or batteries... and if the people ever try to take the streets you set the current up to 11 and replicate Catseye..... foolproof.
 
2014-08-21 10:07:43 AM  
>and if the people ever try to take the streets you set the current up to 11 and replicate Catseye..... foolproof.

Whereupon you are beaten to death by people wearing galoshes who understand electricity.

/Seriously, ramp up the current? Going to be zapping everyone who walks on the road but only painfully normally then?
 
2014-08-21 10:15:08 AM  

dookdookdook: img.fark.net


I don't see what the problem is. They're clearly just picking teams for kickball.
 
2014-08-21 10:15:11 AM  
This is an excellent article.  Unfortunately for America, our police force has an average IQ of about 103, and will be unable to comprehend it.
 
2014-08-21 10:16:16 AM  
It's weird how the article condemns Kettling but ignores how the British police are Pros at it.
 
2014-08-21 10:21:57 AM  
img.fark.net

'hey you, if you do YMCA one more time you are really going to see some police shootings start'
 
2014-08-21 10:23:16 AM  

dookdookdook: Land of the free, biatches!


Meanwhile in France:
i.dailymail.co.uk

Meanwhile in Great Britian:
farm7.staticflickr.com

Meanwhile in Germany:
previous.presstv.ir

Meanwhile in Italy:
i.telegraph.co.uk

Meanwhile in Greece:
media.sacbee.com

Tell me again about these kinder, gentler European riot police and how what is happening in America no way resembles Europe.
 
2014-08-21 10:24:10 AM  
If the citizens of this country cannot protest and exercise their free speech, violent responses against perceived (or real) threats are an inevitable response.

The article made good points on how to react in a positive way to legitimate protests while at the same time addressing the violent sub groups which are just looking for some of the old ultra violence.

If you have ever been to an American football game you can see these dynamics.  Most people are united with each other around the tribalism related to the team dynamics.  The other team fans are "The Other".  Each tribe has a sub group of trouble makers.  The security people in the stadium focus on the trouble makers and make sure the tribes know they want the experience to be positive to encourage people to report the trouble makers.

Also the penalties for making trouble are very severe.
 
2014-08-21 10:29:08 AM  
Meanwhile in Mega City One:
www.welovemoviesmorethanyou.com
 
2014-08-21 10:30:57 AM  

BigSlowTarget: >and if the people ever try to take the streets you set the current up to 11 and replicate Catseye..... foolproof.

Whereupon you are beaten to death by people wearing galoshes who understand electricity.

/Seriously, ramp up the current? Going to be zapping everyone who walks on the road but only painfully normally then?


Easy we outlaw rubbers and provide insulated areas at crosswalks, that should cut down on the J walking.
 
2014-08-21 10:36:06 AM  

Click Click D'oh: dookdookdook: Land of the free, biatches!

Meanwhile in France:
[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x423]

Meanwhile in Great Britian:
[farm7.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

Meanwhile in Germany:
[previous.presstv.ir image 650x365]

Meanwhile in Italy:
[i.telegraph.co.uk image 850x531]

Meanwhile in Greece:
[media.sacbee.com image 850x565]

Tell me again about these kinder, gentler European riot police and how what is happening in America no way resembles Europe.


America finds your billy clubs and tear gas quaint and amusing.

www.independentsentinel.com
crabbygolightly.com
neveryetmelted.com
 
2014-08-21 10:41:48 AM  

Click Click D'oh: dookdookdook: Land of the free, biatches!

Meanwhile in France:
[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x423]

Meanwhile in Great Britian:
[farm7.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

Meanwhile in Germany:
[previous.presstv.ir image 650x365]

Meanwhile in Italy:
[i.telegraph.co.uk image 850x531]

Meanwhile in Greece:
[media.sacbee.com image 850x565]

Tell me again about these kinder, gentler European riot police and how what is happening in America no way resembles Europe.


Because on Fark, and a lot of other publications, Europe is better and more refined than 'Murica at everything.  Those pictures you put up are don't tell the whole picture man.
 
2014-08-21 10:46:46 AM  
Roll out the beer trucks and turn it into a party. There will be violence that follows, to be sure, and property damage, but of a different sort. Plus, once they're passed out, it's far easier to cart off the protesters.
 
2014-08-21 10:48:00 AM  

dookdookdook: America finds your billy clubs and tear gas quaint and amusing.


The French like you decommissioned LAV and raise you:
i14.servimg.com

They would also like to up the ante with:
2.bp.blogspot.com
The VBC-90, in service with the French National Police features kind and gentle options like a 90mm cannon and a co-axial 7.62mm machine gun.

Your move America.
 
2014-08-21 11:09:09 AM  
img.pandawhale.com
 
2014-08-21 11:11:30 AM  

Click Click D'oh: The VBC-90, in service with the French National Police


No, it's not. The Gendarmarie and the national police are no more the same than the National Guard and the NYPD. And the Gendarmarie are not a "militarized police force" in the context we're discussing, they are literally a military police force by intent.

Furthermore, if you'd bothered to RTFA, you'd know it's about how police in Europe are starting to move away from these tactics.

This is an even weaker attempt than the one you made yesterday to muddy the issue.
 
2014-08-21 11:13:42 AM  

devildog123: Click Click D'oh: dookdookdook: Land of the free, biatches!

Meanwhile in France:
[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x423]

Meanwhile in Great Britian:
[farm7.staticflickr.com image 500x333]

Meanwhile in Germany:
[previous.presstv.ir image 650x365]

Meanwhile in Italy:
[i.telegraph.co.uk image 850x531]

Meanwhile in Greece:
[media.sacbee.com image 850x565]

Tell me again about these kinder, gentler European riot police and how what is happening in America no way resembles Europe.

Because on Fark, and a lot of other publications, Europe is better and more refined than 'Murica at everything.  Those pictures you put up are don't tell the whole picture man.


There's also the issue that British and European crowds tend to be a fair bit more rowdy than American ones. In the US the crowds  generallyturn up looking to peacefully protest but end up in a riot due to the police response, compared to Europe and the UK where plenty of protesters regularly turn up ready for a fight.
 
2014-08-21 11:19:20 AM  
Thing is this is nothing new. This was brought up after the G8 summit in Italy in 2002 (?). When Ottawa had the Take the Hill Protest I was working in a tall office building that was one of the targeted for protest. It was interesting watching the snake move through the city. But more interesting was watching the 200 cops in swat gear follow them in parallel a block or two over. Couple windows were broken and some spraypaint applied but otherwise the only cops they saw were in normal gear. Not if something bad happened...
 
2014-08-21 11:36:09 AM  

skozlaw: The Gendarmarie and the national police are no more the same than the National Guard and the NYPD.


Let's ask wiki about the Gendarmarie:

The Mobile Gendarmerie was given its modern name in 1921.
The GM's main missions include:
riot control and ensuring the return to order
monitoring the territory and its dependencies
guarding significant points (embassies, stations, etc.)
defending the territory, providing reinforcements to the departmental Gendarmerie, and, in the last few years,
conducting external operations (Opex).
Mobile gendarmes are frequently used to reinforce Departmental Gendarmerie and National Police units.


Oh... so. yeah.  That's is what they do after all.  They are Frances riot police.

rt.com

Unless that doesn't actually say Gendarmerie on their backs....  Maybe that's actually French for "Skozlaw is trying to obfuscate"

Could be.

But that's just one example you are trying to pick apart to disprove the whole.  I can keep going with this all day:

More European kind and fuzzy police vehilces:

files.bos-fahrzeuge.info

upload.wikimedia.org

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-08-21 11:39:25 AM  
Those are some bad ass armored snow plows.
 
2014-08-21 12:09:39 PM  

Click Click D'oh: [snipped for derptasticity]


I'd say I respect your ongoing attempts to lie your way out of your compounding errors, but I'd by lying myself.

The Gendarmarie are not the French police anymore than the National Guard or the MPC is the NYPD. Your statement, that the VBC-90 is a police vehicle, within anything approaching a reasonable context for this discussion, is false. That vehicle is no more a police unit than an IAV Stryker is in the U.S. The Gendarmarie are not a militarized civilian force, they are, literally and purposefully, military police.
 
2014-08-21 12:16:36 PM  

skozlaw: The Gendarmarie are not the French police

...


skozlaw: The Gendarmarie are not a militarized civilian force, they are, literally and purposefully, military police.



So which is it, they aren't a police force or they are a police force?

Getting confused here.

Let's ask Wiki again:

In France, the National Gendarmerie (French: Gendarmerie nationale, French pronunciation: [ʒɑdaʁməʁi nasjɔnal]) is a branch of the French Armed Forces, in charge of public safety, with police duties among the civilian population. It also contains a military police force and a special forces component (GIGN). It has a strength of more than 98,155 personnel in 2011.[2]

Oh,so they are police.

Carry on.
 
2014-08-21 12:20:11 PM  
Click Click D'oh

Meanwhile in Germany:


Funny how the German Polizei uniforms have "Police" written on them.
 
2014-08-21 12:32:13 PM  

Click Click D'oh: Getting confused here.


No, you're not, you're purposely lying at this point.

For the edification of anyone else reading this ridiculous subthread, the National Police is an actual, civilian unit that primarily polices cities in France and handles criminal investigations. The Gendarmarie, of which the Mobile Gendarmarie are a part, is a military policy unit under the French armed forces that is frequently deployed to rural areas where there are no civilian police units. They are also sometimes called in alongside the National Police for riot control. They are two distinct units under separate chains of command with separate charges and separate resources. Although I believe they are currently both overseen by the same governmental entity at the very top.

For Click Click D'oh, your feigned ignorance and continued attempts at lying your way through whatever point you imagine you have has gotten old. Go pound sand.
 
2014-08-21 12:55:08 PM  
European speaking here: while European police forces, including some military police forces with civilian tasks such as the Gendarmerie and the Dutch Maurechassee have some pretty badass hardware, you won't see them using fire-arms for crowd control. Full stop. Basically the order of escalation is: normal uniform, but clearly wearing long batons, riot uniform with shields and long batons, water cannons and then firing CS canisters. Pointing semi-automatic weapons at anyone is generally a no-go territory, unless we're talking hostage situations and the like.

The closest I've ever seen to Ferguson-style gun-toting is when in the 80's during some pretty hairy squat riots in Amsterdam army tankdozers were called in to shove barricades out of the way. Those were escorted by special forces with automatic guns in case someone would consider lobbing a molotov cocktails from above on them. Their role was escorting the tankdozers, not crowd control. That was done by both civilian and military police in normal riot police uniforms with nothing more extreme than CS canister launchers.

Mind you, in most European countries the standard procedure will be to have some form of internal investigation if a policeman or -woman merely pulls a gun. Yes: pulling a gun already is something that has to be explained internally. Firing one is definitely cause for a full-on internal investigation to ascertain whether that level of violence was warranted under the circumstances. That doesn't mean that it never happens that criminals get riddled with bullet holes, merely that it only happens under exceptional circumstances. Such as that criminal having emptied a magazine of a fully automatic weapon on the police by that time.

It also doesn't mean that police brutality doesn't happen. It just typically doesn't rise to the levels the USA seems to consider perfectly fine.
 
2014-08-21 01:20:43 PM  
feanorn
Roll out the beer trucks and turn it into a party. There will be violence that follows, to be sure, and property damage, but of a different sort. Plus, once they're passed out, it's far easier to cart off the protesters.


That's basically a description of how Berlin has started dealing with its (in)famous yearly 1st of May riots:
the people living in that neighborhood and the local shop owners got tired of having their neighborhood turned into a war zone and getting trashed and looted each year, so they throw a street fest for families at the same place, meaning the radicals have "to go riot somewhere else" for most of the day because they
a) don't get a permit for a demonstration at their usual spots due to the fest having reserved the space and
b) it kinda cramps your anti-capitalist, f*ck-the-system style if you aren't facing a disembodied wall of militarized riot cops ready to dish out some police brutality and abuse their power (*), but a bunch of little kids with balloons eating candyfloss

(*)
of course that happens here, too; given the riot history, Berlin has companies known and feared for it

Gary-L
Those are some bad ass armored snow plows.


CSB:
The ones with the water cannons were quite handy when Y2K knocked out the system behind the 112 emergency call number in Berlin during the New Year's fireworks (in Germany, there isn't just a single number like 911, there are at least two: 112 for the fire department and ambulances, 110 for the police).
So since, during their busiest night (New Year's Eve==4th of July, everybody and their dogs are launching fireworks at midnight), the fire department had to rely on messengers and patrols looking for fires and couldn't really keep track of their deployed assets, during that night the still reachable police allegedly sent out their anti-riot water canons to fight some fires.
I mean, dealing with burning cars is dealing with burning cars, whether they burn by accident/drunkeness/stupidity or because they're part of a barricade or a leftie's anti-capitalist statement;
so the only difference for the riot police was that during New Year's Eve, nobody was throwing Molotov cocktails at them.
"Snow plows" during on 1st of May:
media0.faz.net
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-08-21 01:34:40 PM  

skozlaw: They are also sometimes called in alongside the National Police for riot control.


"Sometimes", as in, one of their primary stated duties.

I can see the confusion in you not thinking they are a police force though.  These Gendarmerie are clearly a motorcycle gang, not police:

upload.wikimedia.org

And these Gendarmerie are clearly valet parking attendents, not police:
www.tntmagazine.com

And this Gendarmerie...

www.phototheque.servir-et-defendre.com

...awwww crap.  That's another European armored police vehicle, and we all know that the Eurpoean police don't have those.  Sorry to confuse the point again.

Yup, totally not police in any way.

www.tispol.org

Wait.. why is that Gendarmerie writing a traffic citation?  He's not police!!!! Police impersonator!  Police impersonator!!

skozlaw: They are two distinct units under separate chains of command with separate charges and separate resources.


So are the DEA, FBI, DHS and CBP.  Does that stop one of those from being a national police force?

Of course, this is all goal post moving.  What, if anything, does the management and fiscal structure  of a single organization do to refute the clearly established fact that European police forces treat riots exactly like US police agencies and employee very similar equipment?  What?  Nothing at all?  You're just trying in your usual fashion to misdirect the conversation?

Figured.

Stand back citizen:
 news.bbcimg.co.uk


It's okay guys, Skozlaw says you guys aren't really police:

www.thelocal.fr
 
2014-08-21 01:37:24 PM  

The wonderful travels of a turd: Basically the order of escalation is: normal uniform, but clearly wearing long batons, riot uniform with shields and long batons, water cannons and then firing CS canisters.


That would cause people to freaking lose their minds here in the states.  Water cannons are super forbidden here.
 
2014-08-21 01:43:31 PM  

Click Click D'oh: The wonderful travels of a turd: Basically the order of escalation is: normal uniform, but clearly wearing long batons, riot uniform with shields and long batons, water cannons and then firing CS canisters.

That would cause people to freaking lose their minds here in the states.  Water cannons are super forbidden here.


I know. BTW, the UK is introducing them only now, but they're damn common in mainland Europe. It is mind-boggling that water cannons are considered a greater evil than point semi-automatic guns and sniper rifles at crowds. They're not fun, but they are decidedly less likely to become lethal than fire-arms. Even when the water is spiked with a CS agent, which is also done.

As for the heavy armored stuff with fire-arms shown in this thread: those are typically used for airport guard duties, which is also typically done by military police in several European countries. Not for crowd control. The kit with plows are only called in in case of (burning) barricades. Meaning a pretty all-out riot to begin with. Again, not typically used for crowd control. Click Click D'oh is just being willfully obtuse. Or a wanker. Or both.
 
2014-08-21 01:55:15 PM  

Click Click D'oh: The wonderful travels of a turd: Basically the order of escalation is: normal uniform, but clearly wearing long batons, riot uniform with shields and long batons, water cannons and then firing CS canisters.

That would cause people to freaking lose their minds here in the states.  Water cannons are super forbidden here.


There was a little something about Selma that turned the US off of using hoses on protestors.
 
2014-08-21 01:59:41 PM  

The wonderful travels of a turd: As for the heavy armored stuff with fire-arms shown in this thread: those are typically used for airport guard duties, which is also typically done by military police in several European countries. Not for crowd control


Other than the Gendarmerie VBC-90, which is no doubt an outlier, I didn't know I had posted pictures of any armed vehicles.  I thought they were all water cannons and tear gas launchers.  There was no intent to imply that European police forces regularly use lethaly armed vehicles for riot control.
 
2014-08-21 02:00:32 PM  
The wonderful travels of a turd
As for the heavy armored stuff with fire-arms shown in this thread:

Well, cops usually carry fire arms;
but the one picture from "Europe" in this thread with riot cops having actually drawn and pointing their guns at someone is the one labeled "Meanwhile in Germany".
The one were "German" police have the English "police" written on their uniform.
The one, if you plop it into tineye.com for a reverse image search, turns out to be from the G20 summit in Pittsburgh in 2009:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215926/G20-summit-begins-ch ao s-protesters-clash-Pittsburgh-police.html
 
2014-08-21 02:04:45 PM  

The Voice of Doom: The one, if you plop it into tineye.com for a reverse image search, turns out to be from the G20 summit in Pittsburgh in 2009:


Then I will readily admit that as an error.  I found it here: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/234014.html

The article labels the photo as "German riot polic (file photo)"
 
2014-08-21 02:30:17 PM  
Click Click D'oh:

Other than the Gendarmerie VBC-90, which is no doubt an outlier, I didn't know I had posted pictures of any armed vehicles.  I thought they were all water cannons and tear gas launchers.  There was no intent to imply that European police forces regularly use lethaly armed vehicles for riot control.

Yet you are consistently implying that European police is no more restrained and/or militarised than US police is. Which is a load of bollocks. When even Russia's puppet-regime in Ukraine was applying substantially more restraint at the Euromaidan demonstrations than US police typically does, you may have veered so deep into police-state territory.

If you read this http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-i f -you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/ , which is unadulterated authoritarianism and contrast it to my experience in for example Bukarest, Rumania, where I noticed a cabbie giving a police officer a free piece of his mind for violating traffic norms he was supposed to enforce you will admit that something is deeply screwed in the USA. If countries that have only had something resembling a democracy and the rule of law for less than two decades have a police force that is less hell-bent on enforcing obedience than yours with centuries democratic tradition, you may stop and start thinking that maybe, maybe something is rotten.
 
2014-08-21 03:02:02 PM  

The wonderful travels of a turd: Yet you are consistently implying that European police is no more restrained and/or militarised than US police is.


No, I'm stating that riot police in Europe handle riots in pretty much the exact same way that riot police in the US do.  Mass shows of force, plenty of CS, lot's of batons, mass arrests etc. etc.

Yes, US police do get pointy with the guns.  Yes, European police do get squirty with the water cannons.  There are obvious differences.  However, the whole of the thing is very similar.

Also, people like to get butt hurt about the MRAPs (hey, euro police have armored vehicles too), but has anyone stopped to wonder why yet?  Other than gut reaction that is.  What are the MRAPs doing that is so  objectionable?  Mostly they just sit around.  They aren't armed.  They aren't being used to run people over.  If someone can explain to me exactly what the problem with them is it would really help a lot.
 
2014-08-21 03:12:04 PM  
Click Click D'oh:
No, I'm stating that riot police in Europe handle riots in pretty much the exact same way that riot police in the US do.  Mass shows of force, plenty of CS, lot's of batons, mass arrests etc. etc.

Riots... maybe. Demonstrations, nope and nope. Riot police is kept at hand, but mostly out of sight of demonstrators. Likewise with the other equipment such as water cannons, APCs etc. For the simple reason that the mere presence of police officers in riot gear tends to incite riots. Which was precisely the point of TFA.
 
Also, people like to get butt hurt about the MRAPs (hey, euro police have armored vehicles too), but has anyone stopped to wonder why yet?  Other than gut reaction that is.  What are the MRAPs doing that is so  objectionable?  Mostly they just sit around.  They aren't armed.  They aren't being used to run people over.  If someone can explain to me exactly what the problem with them is it would really help a lot.


Because you use MRAPs to suppress armed insurgecies, not civilian protests. Just like pointing firearms at demonstrators (something the military tends to frown upon) is driving around in MRAPs just gunboat diplomacy. And gunboat diplomacy is something you used for uppity natives in the colonial era, not for the citizenry of a democracy. It just screams OBEY OR WE WILL MESS YOU UP.

Were the shiatty way the steroid-adled pea-brains of Ferguson PD are handling the situation applied in Europe their children and pets would probably be dying from strychine poisoning already.
 
2014-08-21 03:40:40 PM  

The wonderful travels of a turd: Riots... maybe. Demonstrations, nope and nope.


Riots only,

Demonstrations you are right.  But then again, the average demonstration in the US is handled pretty tamely in the US too.  They largely look like this:

cdn1.lockerdome.com


And this:

i.dailymail.co.uk

Police forces in the US by and large only roll out the riot squad when they have prior intelligence that something is going to break bad.  That stuff is expensive.

The wonderful travels of a turd: Because you use MRAPs to suppress armed insurgecies, not civilian protests.


The MRAP itself is nothing more than a jumped up bank truck designed to withstand explosions.  They are unarmed.  Honest question, would you be happier if they went back to using repainted bank vehicles like this one:

evanstonnow.com

The wonderful travels of a turd: Just like pointing firearms at demonstrators

...

That's indicative of piss poor training.  If you look at the pictures, it's almost always the SWAT guys point guns at people, not the line officers.  That's largely because of a flaw in their training and deployment.  SWAT train pretty much that anything they get called out on is the bad guy, so they almost always move and take positions with their guns out, even when they are being used against non-hostiles.  It's the wrong tool being used in the wrong place. And yes, it shouldn't be done.  I don't know if it's a case of the local PD using every tool in the box because of staffing issues or shiatty management, but it is certainly a cause for corrective action.
 
2014-08-21 04:29:08 PM  

Click Click D'oh: Police forces in the US who have a lot of experience with policing protests, for example New York and DC police, by and large only roll out the riot squad when they have prior intelligence that something is going to break bad.  That stuff is expensive.


FTFY

The problem in Ferguson is that their only previous experience of crowd control has probably been directing traffic at the local High School football matches. When faced with a large protest they didn't have a farking clue, so instead of gearing up to diffuse tensions they armored up for a fight.
 
2014-08-21 04:39:31 PM  

Target Builder: FTFY


Well yes, I think we can all agree on that.

Target Builder: When faced with a large protest they didn't have a farking clue, so instead of gearing up to diffuse tensions they armored up for a fight.


I'm not so sure of that.  I don't remember seeing any pictures from this event of the police going all tacticool until after the looting and burning started.  All the famous pictures of SWAT acting like douches are from the 11th.  The bovine fecal mater hit the oscillating air circulation device on the evening of the 10th.  Not saying that Ferguson hasn't mishandled this event, just that I don't see any evidence that the police response is what cause the escalation from protest to riot.
 
2014-08-21 05:31:44 PM  

The wonderful travels of a turd: Click Click D'oh: The wonderful travels of a turd: Basically the order of escalation is: normal uniform, but clearly wearing long batons, riot uniform with shields and long batons, water cannons and then firing CS canisters.

That would cause people to freaking lose their minds here in the states.  Water cannons are super forbidden here.

I know. BTW, the UK is introducing them only now, but they're damn common in mainland Europe. It is mind-boggling that water cannons are considered a greater evil than point semi-automatic guns and sniper rifles at crowds. They're not fun, but they are decidedly less likely to become lethal than fire-arms. Even when the water is spiked with a CS agent, which is also done.


I think water cannons are now banned in the US because they are associated with the South in the 1960's, when they were wildly overused because racism.
 
2014-08-21 06:23:00 PM  
What a coincidence!  "Stuck in Riot Mode" is the name of my new album!
 
2014-08-21 08:07:16 PM  
It's like I always say: If you want a riot, call in the riot police.
 
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