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(NBC News)   St. Louis City Police Chief Sam Dotson sadly gives a lesson in how to handle an officer involved shooting with a direct detailed account of another shooting   (nbcnews.com ) divider line 582
    More: Scary  
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12434 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2014 at 9:16 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-20 01:04:22 AM  

Cyclometh: Now they're trying to corral the media back into their pen.


I hate media being corraled away, but it looks like agitators are targeting the media now as well. And after gunshots, they want media safe. The worst thing that can happen is dead media, the second worst is corralling them away.
 
2014-08-20 01:04:37 AM  
Microphone Cop: "All credentialed media need to get back to the designated media area immediately."
Tim Pool: "Someone's attacking a journalist here."
[Attacker appeared to be civilian, not police. Hard to tell Other civilians trying to de-escalate.]
Tim Pool: "Feels like things are getting a bit calmer. People forming a line, holding hand, seems like they're trying to lower the tensions."
[Vice going down for 30s to swap batteries.]
 
2014-08-20 01:04:47 AM  

WhyteRaven74: So, what happens if it turns out the guy with the knife was seriously mentally ill and couldn't even grasp what he was doing? Or are we juts declaring open season on mentally ill people cause it's easier that way?


You state a valid point. When a person threatens serious harm, up to and including death, to others, absolutely no action should be taken that would endanger the aggressor's life, due to the possibility that the aggressor is mentally ill. To use deadly force against an armed aggressor is to declare that mentally ill individuals may be killed with impunity. The two concepts are completely logically equivalent.
 
2014-08-20 01:05:37 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: Cyclometh: Now they're trying to corral the media back into their pen.

I hate media being corraled away, but it looks like agitators are targeting the media now as well. And after gunshots, they want media safe. The worst thing that can happen is dead media, the second worst is corralling them away.


You'd think that as much as the cops have been in the media's grill that they'd be on the guy. But not an officer in sight.

Of course, when the media's trying to film the police doing something, it's all guns in their faces and screams to get the fark out.
 
2014-08-20 01:06:58 AM  

Twilight Farkle: VICE livestream up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24e6RfL_jbg

SWAT rolling up, someone stole a cell phone, SWAT rolling up, locals herding people onto sidewalk, Tim Pool on scene, another bottle thrown.

Local: "Stay back, I just got a gun right in my face..."
Microphone Cop: "You need to immediately stop throwing objects and disperse immediately."
Tim Pool: "They're now giving the order to disperse. This is usually where things go bad..."


Thanks for the synopsis!

Cyclometh: Ah, here we go with the "and/or other actions" guy.


Cyclometh: Oh fark.


Gosling: Live rounds. Fark.


Sounds like just another night in Ferguson at this point...
 
2014-08-20 01:07:32 AM  
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson
 
2014-08-20 01:07:46 AM  
Talk about a cliffhanger... they sure can pick a time to need to change batteries on vice feed, can't they?
 
2014-08-20 01:08:15 AM  
Group of protestors trying to join hands in a line between the cops and the other protestors. So far it appears to be working.
 
2014-08-20 01:08:38 AM  

Elegy: Sounds like just another night in Ferguson at this point...


Actually, in some ways it's much better than previous nights. I really had thought the cops would be following their standard playbook:

1) And/or other actions guy for a few minutes.
2) LRAD
3) Put another line of police behind the crowd.
4) Launch tear gas and smoke, then advance.
 
2014-08-20 01:09:08 AM  
A guy just attacked another guy. I think the attacker was a local and the man who he attacked was the New Black Panther leader, Malik Zulu Shabazz. I've read that locals are getting sick and tired of him. According to them, Shabazz on the surface appears trying to maintain order and peace between the cops and the protesters but in reality is trying to incite riots. Here's one article talking about that.

The locals are starting to get real tired of how the media and these outsiders are exploiting the town for their own gain.
 
2014-08-20 01:09:34 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x346]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x352]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x320]

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


Can't argue much with this.

HOWEVER

Using this to make the point that US police should be trained differently is a GREAT point

Using this to argue that the particular officers in THIS INCIDENT responded inappropriately is absolute horseshiat
 
2014-08-20 01:10:53 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson


I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.
 
2014-08-20 01:11:07 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: Cyclometh: Now they're trying to corral the media back into their pen.

I hate media being corraled away, but it looks like agitators are targeting the media now as well. And after gunshots, they want media safe. The worst thing that can happen is dead media, the second worst is corralling them away.


They dont want their acts of agitation and escalation on camera.

That way they can blame the police.

Cause whos gonna believe the cops didnt escalate.....
 
2014-08-20 01:11:50 AM  

Negligible: Talk about a cliffhanger... they sure can pick a time to need to change batteries on vice feed, can't they?


Mike Brown Live and Anon are down too
 
2014-08-20 01:11:51 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson


Farking morons,  at least agree one where the damn area is before barking out orders.


Hands up!
Get on the ground!
I said hands up!
Get on the ground now!
With your hands up!
 
2014-08-20 01:12:50 AM  
So Vice is down as well as I Am Mike Brown.  So to speak.

Right when it looked horrifying.
 
2014-08-20 01:13:03 AM  
 
2014-08-20 01:13:05 AM  

nyseattitude: Negligible: Talk about a cliffhanger... they sure can pick a time to need to change batteries on vice feed, can't they?

Mike Brown Live and Anon are down too


Didn't realize that at first. Really hating how Livestream seems to restart from the start of recording when livestream ends. At least Youtube auto stops and starts it.
 
2014-08-20 01:16:01 AM  
tim is back!
 
2014-08-20 01:16:15 AM  
Police now opting to encircle the media pen (where the remaining protestors look to have mixed themselves in with).

This is the worst optics yet.
 
2014-08-20 01:16:56 AM  
Tim's feed is back up.
 
2014-08-20 01:17:35 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson

I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.


Agreed.
 
2014-08-20 01:18:23 AM  

wademh:
Everybody seems to love Tim Pool but as I listen to him, I think he's an idiot.
Every time he gives his little recap of events he presents it as this simplistically dichotomous snippet of "reached for the gun" versus "hands up, don't shoot".

I'm thinking adrenalin junky, controversy junky, AW. Drama for the sake of drama with more interest in spectacle than objective reporting! It's a "reality TV" variant of reality. I guess I need another drink.


dvdmedia.ign.com

I think he's taking unreasonable risks to get the story, but that's what reporting used to be all about.

Yes, if he were working with a conventional news network, 99% of what he shoots (and the same goes for IaMB and the MSNBC livefeed) would end up on the cutting room floor in order to get the 90 seconds that actually makes the evening news, but that's the point: it's only in the past 5 years that the average citizen has had access to mulitple raw feeds from current events. It's 20 minutes into the future, every network is Network 23, and everyone is a potential Edison Carter.
Vice is now back up. "Very very strange situation, the police have just put all media into ? press zone. Usually when they do it means they're about to make a move against the protestors. [confused by small number of protestors] [describes water bottle incidents] [protestor runs, gets arrested, crowd surrounds police, "all I heard was run" "everyone breaks" "heard pop" "police circled media area" "ordering us into parking lot" "which seems not a good idea"]

Civilian/Clergyman in T-shirt: "If it was up to me, [everyone could stay] [but things sound like they're kicking off]"
 
2014-08-20 01:18:35 AM  
Oh shiat, here we go.
 
2014-08-20 01:18:39 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:


And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


Ah but their police are not reduced to pants-wetting children with military fantasies.
 
2014-08-20 01:18:59 AM  

WhyteRaven74: So, what happens if it turns out the guy with the knife was seriously mentally ill and couldn't even grasp what he was doing? Or are we juts declaring open season on mentally ill people cause it's easier that way?


Then we call Obama and ask to use his magic time machine to go back and tell the officers that "it's OK, we are from the future and know that this guy doesn't know what he's doing so there's no way he might actually sever an artery and kill you."  Except of course for the tragic fact that he was certainly mentally-ill but that does not really change anything respective to how he still managed to force the cops hands.'
Matt Dillion, Paladin, Wyatt Earp, Chuck Conners, Brett Maverick and many other Hollywood heroes would have shot the knife out of his hand. Chuck Norris  would have disarmed him, and then killed him.

Nobody thinks that shooting this guy is good but it was apparently forced by the deceased. Sucks for everybody.
 
2014-08-20 01:21:23 AM  

doglover: Boon23834: parasol: Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?

tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline

Um. Then, some officers should go unarmed. With a tool like a taser specifically designed for situations like this as a less lethal option, officers should be required to justify carrying a firearm. You know, something situation ally dependent. Who cares about the cost? Of all the stuff our governments waste money on, an electrically charged device vs. Keeping a service weapon in use, well the costs of range time, ammunition, weapons specialists such as armourers, gunsmiths, trainers, it's gotta be pricey. Something along a British model of having armed officers show up on call, without going full SWAT has to be better all around, cheaper and fewer dead.

Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.


Fair point. Then remove the chief toxic culture enabling tool. The gun.

Let cops figure out how to engage the populace. Work with them. See them as people.

Being a cop has to be extremely difficult, but they're generally from the same cities (yeah... I know that's an assumption) they work. It's obviously in their best interests to have a safe place to live and work. Having them work with a population and use the principles of a minimum amount of force, civil and police cooperation, and flexibility will start at solving some of the systemic issues of their toxic culture and the toxic culture of the criminal elements they deal with on a daily basis.
 
2014-08-20 01:22:25 AM  

jst3p: Jobber8742: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Cyclometh: In regard to the situation in TFA, I don't see how the cops could have easily gotten out of it without using deadly force. The guy was clearly bent on it and once things get past a certain point, it's game on. This was pretty clearly a justifiable, if regrettable, use of force- based on what information we have right now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm just about the libbiest lib around, but I find it mind boggling that people are actually criticizing the cops in this situation. An unpredictable, probably delusional guy wielding a deadly weapon? Yeah, no

This exactly. The police have a right to go home without a stab wound because some psycho pulled knife on them. In a situation like that, you shoot to protect yourself.

I am usually with the "fark the police" crowd but I don't see what they should have done differently here.


Same here, and we'd get labeled boot lickers for saying that.  I find myself agreeing with people who I was arguing with in the other threads, but this was self defense.  I'm guessing most of those people getting pissed at the cops in this circumstance have never seen a person get cut or stabbed with a knife.
 
2014-08-20 01:24:16 AM  

Boon23834: but they're generally from the same cities (yeah... I know that's an assumption)


 Not in this area where every tiny suburb has its own force.  You could have a 5 minute commute to work and be in a different PD's territory.
 
2014-08-20 01:24:22 AM  
Dogs can't be a good idea at all
 
2014-08-20 01:24:28 AM  
K-9 units out? Christ, guys, let's just get out the firehoses and go full Birmingham. Why stop halfway?
 
2014-08-20 01:25:10 AM  
Seriously? K-9's?
 
2014-08-20 01:25:46 AM  
Oh man, someone screaming "Stand your ground" through a bullhorn.
 
2014-08-20 01:26:29 AM  

Lordserb: Threads like these reinforce the fact that America is raising an entire generation of children that view movies and TV as "science" and "reality".

Why didn't the cops just use ninja skills and disarm the person???

lol...for srs guyz...lol


I've often said that Fark is full of basement dwellers who have no idea of how the real world actually works, threads like this prove it.
 
2014-08-20 01:28:03 AM  
"get yeer aaass on dat sidewalk"

lol
 
2014-08-20 01:28:04 AM  
Water bottle thrown. All members with the following item on their person please arrest yourself. cdn5.triplepundit.com

www.rawstory.com
wanted for questioning
 
2014-08-20 01:28:13 AM  
Twilight Farkle:
Yes, if he were working with a conventional news network, 99% of what he shoots (and the same goes for IaMB and the MSNBC livefeed) would end up on the cutting room floor in order to get the 90 seconds that actually makes the evening news

Few people enjoy being edited but, there's a point to editing.  I recognize the attraction of live reporting to feed my "need" to know. But   Veruca Salt and I can actually survive the wait. In the meantime, there's still no legitimate excuse for misleading recaps.
 
2014-08-20 01:28:20 AM  
Hah, I wonder if that hick knows he just went out to more people than live in the greater Saint Louis metro area.

"geet back urp on dat dere saidwahlk rayt enow. Nut gunna tell yew agin."
 
2014-08-20 01:28:20 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.


The last couple of livestream events I've tuned in for were this and Boston, and the phrase "fog of war" ccomes to mind. Look at how long it takes us to figure out what's going on. I'm confused and I have a full-size monitor with three windows open, plus a second monitor with two livestreams open.
Now imagine yourself in the shoes of someone with a badge, a gun, and an audio-only radio that only communicates with the 10-20 people he hangs out with at the office.
 
2014-08-20 01:29:46 AM  
The Russians sure spare no expense for their propaganda department's equipment. That's a fine feed.
 
2014-08-20 01:29:57 AM  
I hope tomorrow Tim brings the equipment with the non-farked up mics.
 
2014-08-20 01:30:33 AM  

nyseattitude: [img.fark.net image 627x680]


"White people think the Michael Brown investigation is going fine"

You know, I am 1) an extremely libby lib and yet nonetheless 2) extremely opposed to (most of) the bullshiat of the current crop of left wing Social Justice Warriors. But holy motherfarking fark! I can understand how my beer swilling Ni**er hating brother in law could think this, but REALLY??!!!
 
2014-08-20 01:32:27 AM  
Why is it that all of the action occurs at night?  Is there any protesting during the day?
I wonder what the police presence is on the main drag during the daylight hours.
 
2014-08-20 01:33:14 AM  

Twilight Farkle: Caffienatedjedi: I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.

The last couple of livestream events I've tuned in for were this and Boston, and the phrase "fog of war" ccomes to mind. Look at how long it takes us to figure out what's going on. I'm confused and I have a full-size monitor with three windows open, plus a second monitor with two livestreams open.
Now imagine yourself in the shoes of someone with a badge, a gun, and an audio-only radio that only communicates with the 10-20 people he hangs out with at the office.


Part of it comes down to the fog of war, but when they shout "I don't care" when they are told "But State troopers told me x" I have an issue. Radio in for confirmation real quick, if possible. Or at least be more respectful about it. I think police conduct has been below standards, and the lack of respect and use of profanity has really undermined their authority. Respect cannot be demanded, it can only be earned. So I respect a lot of the state troopers, and that one guy ordering dispersal that was fun about it. I don't respect the guys using profanity and threats of violence to enforce their authority.
 
2014-08-20 01:33:18 AM  
God, watching the higher-ups sit there and survey the scene- for all the world, they look like a god damn colonel with his majors and captains sucking up while he talks about doctrine.
 
2014-08-20 01:33:45 AM  

12349876: Boon23834: but they're generally from the same cities (yeah... I know that's an assumption)

 Not in this area where every tiny suburb has its own force.  You could have a 5 minute commute to work and be in a different PD's territory.


That sucks. Truly, it removes the investment a police officer should have in their community. I'm running out of ideas, but what about a living incentiveto live and work in the same area? Things have to change. This is brutal. We cannot have a completely us versus them mentality. That's wartime thinking enabled by too many militaristic police chiefs and shaved ape cops trying to subjugate communities and demographics who sometimes do not even have the education to articulate why they feel wronged or explain their sense of injustice.
 
2014-08-20 01:36:07 AM  

JimmySlicings: Why is it that all of the action occurs at night?  Is there any protesting during the day?
I wonder what the police presence is on the main drag during the daylight hours.


The biggest protests are in the daylight, and are peaceful. It's obvious why shiat goes down at night, it's dark.
 
2014-08-20 01:36:25 AM  
Half the media's surrounded a guy who got pepper-sprayed and is being tended to by the field medics.
 
2014-08-20 01:38:13 AM  

wademh: Few people enjoy being edited but, there's a point to editing. I recognize the attraction of live reporting to feed my "need" to know. But Veruca Salt and I can actually survive the wait. In the meantime, there's still no legitimate excuse for misleading recaps.


imokwiththis.jpg

For those who actually value their time (most of us don't because hey, we're punching the F5 button here on Fark!), the media does a reasonably good job of condensing the night's events into a 3-minute segment.

I think Pool's recaps are fine; his audience is composed both of media junkies who watch the livestreams out of the corners of their eyes all night just waiting for shiat to get realthe excuse to punch the Popcorn button on the microwave, but he also has to summarize things for n00bs who just got the URL via some retweet. His recaps are pretty balanced: it started with a shooting, the police say this, the protestors say that.

/totally Veruca Salting my pocorn tonight, guilty as charged.
 
2014-08-20 01:38:42 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: Twilight Farkle: Caffienatedjedi: I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.

The last couple of livestream events I've tuned in for were this and Boston, and the phrase "fog of war" ccomes to mind. Look at how long it takes us to figure out what's going on. I'm confused and I have a full-size monitor with three windows open, plus a second monitor with two livestreams open.
Now imagine yourself in the shoes of someone with a badge, a gun, and an audio-only radio that only communicates with the 10-20 people he hangs out with at the office.

Part of it comes down to the fog of war, but when they shout "I don't care" when they are told "But State troopers told me x" I have an issue. Radio in for confirmation real quick, if possible. Or at least be more respectful about it. I think police conduct has been below standards, and the lack of respect and use of profanity has really undermined their authority. Respect cannot be demanded, it can only be earned. So I respect a lot of the state troopers, and that one guy ordering dispersal that was fun about it. I don't respect the guys using profanity and threats of violence to enforce their authority.


That is what started this entire situation.
 
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