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(NBC News)   St. Louis City Police Chief Sam Dotson sadly gives a lesson in how to handle an officer involved shooting with a direct detailed account of another shooting   (nbcnews.com) divider line 582
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12419 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2014 at 9:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-19 11:50:51 PM  

Tenz83: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

No it isn't, stop baiting.


Actually it seems it is, Wiki mentions only the US, except for one in the UK, and I can think of one here locally in Canuckastain.

And how is pointing out that this is a phenomena that happens almost exclusively in a country that has a heavily militarized police force "baiting"?, FTFA "...The chief said the man told the police: "Shoot me now. Kill me now." ...."
 
2014-08-19 11:52:39 PM  

Yogimus: When cops started calling people civilians ... is when things started turning sour.


Hill Street Blues?
 
2014-08-19 11:53:04 PM  

jst3p: It is amazing that he doesn't realize what a joke he is in this thread. He has had his dick knocked in the dirt at every turn by multiple people and goes on to post "I have been correct in my statements all along:"


I have a hard time believing he's not trolling. I'd be concerned if he wasn't... I mean... you know that people like that exist, but you fool yourself into thinking, "That never happens in my neighborhood internet message board".
 
2014-08-19 11:53:48 PM  

Cyclometh: Fubini: They're two completely different tools for two completely different scenarios.

And neither should be used unless deadly force is necessary.


Or unless a mischievous fan runs onto the field of play during a major sporting event.
 
2014-08-19 11:54:07 PM  

GardenWeasel: Yogimus: When cops started calling people civilians ... is when things started turning sour.

Hill Street Blues?


Having to see Dennis Franz's ass on network TV?
 
2014-08-19 11:54:21 PM  

Cyclometh: Someone mentioned LRAD upthread; It'll be interesting to see if the fortunes of the companies that make the things change based on the fact that they've done zero good in the Ferguson crisis, and arguably made things worse by riling up crowds through their repeated use.


What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?  You gotta figure that would clear the crowd pretty quickly. Or Slim Whitman and Indian Love Call  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FhQxZnSqc0
 
2014-08-19 11:56:19 PM  

Fubini: jst3p: It is amazing that he doesn't realize what a joke he is in this thread. He has had his dick knocked in the dirt at every turn by multiple people and goes on to post "I have been correct in my statements all along:"

I have a hard time believing he's not trolling. I'd be concerned if he wasn't... I mean... you know that people like that exist, but you fool yourself into thinking, "That never happens in my neighborhood internet message board".


If he is he has mastered the craft.
 
2014-08-19 11:56:37 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.


I'm curious about how often you look over your shoulder to check for cops while using a knife. Or do you feel you don't have to because of the color of your skin?
 
2014-08-19 11:57:36 PM  

doglover: Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.


Of course Japan doesn't have problems, why would a cop be scared in a place where everyone looks the same?

/interpreting that as individuals is a joke
//interpreting that as ethnicities is serious
///THREES
 
2014-08-19 11:58:21 PM  
Yes, they are nearly as bad as a gun, because they're still a deadly weapon and should not be used unless it's really necessary because there's no good reason to risk someone's life just because a cop needs a midol.


And yes, again- they ARE as bad as a gun because their use constitutes deadly force, by definition. The consequence of their use  tends to be less severe than for a firearm, but they are  still lethal weapons and should not be used casually. Don't dismiss their dangers just because you have this idea that there's varying degrees of "deadly force". Escalation past a certain point is just about how much risk you're willing to take on and that judgement is made in instants.

I consider tasers to be a useful device in that they can help prevent what would otherwise be a death, but because they have this reputation (fomented by people like yourself) of being "not as bad as a gun", it becomes far easier to justify their use in situations not calling for deadly force.

And neither should be used unless deadly force is necessary.

You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.

I love how people who don't even know what the legal definition of "deadly force" is are lecturing me on not understanding the meaning of words.

Tasers are a form of deadly force.
Their use is less likely to be lethal. That does not make using them not using deadly force.
They are not a substitute for deadly force, they are a type of deadly force.



Please, enlighten me on what the fark you are trying to say, because you seem to be all over the damned place. I have shown stats and definitions that contradict your feelings, and for that I am sorry, but this is the kind of confusion you cause when you start making up your own meanings to words
 
2014-08-19 11:58:27 PM  

wademh: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

538 how many americans the police kill each year

Of course, it's hard to do suicide by cop with an English Bobby who says
You can sleep at home tonight, if you can get up and walk away.

Heaven is where the police are British, the lovers French, the mechanics German, the chefs Italian, and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German American, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.


While I am unsure of your premise that Bobby's are that nice(despite, I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE).  I agree with the rest of this, though I would prefer the Chefs be Indian(some sort of wheat thing going on so past does not agree)

/Not that I really care
//Horns
///Slashies
 
2014-08-19 11:58:30 PM  

IronTom: Dotson, we got Dotson here.


Thank you. Not sure what I did to deserve it, but thanks!
 
2014-08-19 11:59:04 PM  
So far it seems fairly quiet. Well, considering the circumstances anyway.

Amazing what happens when you don't form the cops into a giant line and lay off the sound cannons and tear gas.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:04 PM  

wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?


There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:20 PM  

Mad_Radhu: 21-7-b: to be fair, in your middle pic the situation looks to have the potential to go very pear-shaped for the cops

Still, cops in countries like the UK deal with knife-weilding assailants all day in and out and don't feel the need to go all Hot Fuzz on everyone. What makes us special where people can't be disarmed non-leathally or an unarmed man can't be subdued? All of this non-lethal stuff that everyone says is unworkable seems to actually work all over the world.

What gives?


well, in the last ten years the number of police deaths in the uk is about 1% of that for the us, believe it or not, so very different
 
2014-08-19 11:59:42 PM  

GardenWeasel: DrExplosion: GardenWeasel: DrExplosion: I've been in enough lethal force situations to know that the brain just doesn't reliably work that way unless the cops have received serious training for exactly this scenario.

And there is the problem. Why haven't they?

Because "what to do if you and another cop, while in an area of civil unrest brought about as a result of police violence, are confronted by a deranged man with a knife who advances on you while telling you to kill him" is far too specific to be helpful. The scenario is incredibly unlikely, and you can only do so much training. They've got higher priorities, too. Personally, I'd rather have them spend that day (yes, they'd need at least a day of practicing this exact scenario, and then they'd need to spend a few hours each year to maintain proficiency) at the range improving their marksmanship skills. Cops don't exactly have the best marksmanship records, and every shot they miss has to go somewhere, like into a bystander.

The only real "problem" here is that we don't live in The Matrix yet and cops can't download their training directly into their brains.

Yes we should only emphasize marksmanship, so firearms are even more of a 1st option. Excellent.


Ah, now I see I was talking to an idiot. This time I bolded the part you should have noticed earlier. Range time doesn't teach cops when to shoot, it helps them put the bullets where they're supposed to go when it's time to shoot. This means only the bad guy gets shot, instead of the bad guy and nine bystanders.

The level of detail you want in police training is simply not possible. For a comprehensive, reality-based escalation of force policy, "shooting the crazy guy who's coming at you with a knife" is pretty much perfect.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:45 PM  

Fubini: wademh: Hell is where the police are GermanAmerican, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.

Are you saying that our modern police force is like the gestapo? If so, I'd urge you read a history book. Try looking under "H" for "holocaust" in the index.


No. When I want to say our police are like the Gestapo, you'll know it, because I'll say our police are like the Gestapo. If that's confusing to you, write it down on a 3x5 index card for reference. File it under S.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:56 PM  

Yogimus: Fubini: Cyclometh: http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/child-page/164097/do c/ slspublic/tasers.pdf

The crux of that report is that a law enforcement agency subjects itself to potential liability by using tasers, not that they're bad tools. At the heart of their analysis is simply the fact that tasers haven't been used for very long, so there is no proven track record of case law that shows police departments that it's safe to do so.

Like others have said, other methods of gaining compliance are comparatively more violent and much riskier for both the subject and the officer, and your report fails to address that second issue at all. If an officer breaks his leg or gets stabbed in a physical altercation with someone, that police department is going to be making unemployment and disability payments that easily meet or exceed the excessive use of force settlements cited in the report.

Here is the number one benefit of tasers:

They don't look violent on film.

Here is the real benefit of tasers:

When used successfully, the conflict is immediately over. A baton, gas, a FLASHLIGHT (What farking idiot said this? I mean really? I can't be bothered to look, but if this was you, you are a farking moron and should feel bad) when used on a suspect DO NOT guarantee compliance, and the situation can escalate to lethal force in a rapid manner. A Taser stops the escalation. Right or wrong, (and I am against them, mind you) a taser is an "I SAID SO" switch.

It i also a courtesy. A tool that CAN be used, not one that must be used instead of lethal force.


Plus its a lot easier to kill with a baton (even a modern expanding model) than with a taser.
 
2014-08-20 12:00:43 AM  

DrExplosion: You've obviously never had any martial arts training, especially not in the mythical "Krav Maga" you mentioned earlier. The Hollywood shiat you imagine martial arts to be is not reality. In the real world, you train to disarm men with knives to give you a higher chance of not dying if a knife-wielding man confronts you while you're unarmed. You would literally never choose to do so if you had any other options.


That's why I learned Llap Goch
 
2014-08-20 12:01:31 AM  

12349876: doglover: Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.

Of course Japan doesn't have problems, why would a cop be scared in a place where everyone looks the same?

/interpreting that as individuals is a joke
//interpreting that as ethnicities is serious
///THREES


I think this does bring up an important point. A lot of the nations with lower rates of crime/police issues are much more homogenized. That areas with high issues are often either more interacially integrated or have massive racial tensions.
 
2014-08-20 12:01:47 AM  

wademh: Fubini: wademh: Hell is where the police are GermanAmerican, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.

Are you saying that our modern police force is like the gestapo? If so, I'd urge you read a history book. Try looking under "H" for "holocaust" in the index.

No. When I want to say our police are like the Gestapo, you'll know it, because I'll say our police are like the Gestapo. If that's confusing to you, write it down on a 3x5 index card for reference. File it under S.


What does the S stand for?
 
2014-08-20 12:02:00 AM  

albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.


The rules of engagement are clear about when, where, and to what extent police are authorized to use deadly force.

The rules of engagement don't explain that using deadly force during a larger public protest might be strategically foolish and possibly incite the public towards greater violence, leading to deaths and damages far greater than the initial confrontation. RoE doesn't impart wisdom.

American police training prioritizes applying categorized responses towards irrational people. When a person doesn't fit into a proper category the textbook solution is to use force to make them fit.
 
2014-08-20 12:02:33 AM  

wademh: Fubini: wademh: Hell is where the police are GermanAmerican, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.

Are you saying that our modern police force is like the gestapo? If so, I'd urge you read a history book. Try looking under "H" for "holocaust" in the index.

No. When I want to say our police are like the Gestapo, you'll know it, because I'll say our police are like the Gestapo. If that's confusing to you, write it down on a 3x5 index card for reference. File it under S.


If that's the reference I think it is- very nice.
 
2014-08-20 12:03:43 AM  

Darth Macho: RoE doesn't impart wisdom.


Best statement of the thread.
 
2014-08-20 12:04:11 AM  

albatros183: Tenz83: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

No it isn't, stop baiting.

Actually it seems it is, Wiki mentions only the US, except for one in the UK, and I can think of one here locally in Canuckastain.

And how is pointing out that this is a phenomena that happens almost exclusively in a country that has a heavily militarized police force "baiting"?, FTFA "...The chief said the man told the police: "Shoot me now. Kill me now." ...."


I'm saying baiting because it just doesn't happen in only the US or UK. Only reason a wiki would have is because of the statistics have been gathered in these 2 countries. Suicide by cop is a world phenomenon.

"Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which a suicidal individual deliberately acts in a threatening way, provoking a lethal response from a law enforcement officer or other legitimately armed individual, such as being shot to death."

People all over the world do it. It's just the United States and UK compiled stats while many other countries don't bother was my point.
 
2014-08-20 12:04:16 AM  

Darth Macho: American police training prioritizes applying categorized responses towards irrational people. When a person doesn't fit into a proper category the textbook solution is to use force to make them fit.


Yep. Force them to a compliance/resistance posture.

"Get up"
- No
/grab suspect
-pulls away
WOO HOO RESISTANCE!
 
2014-08-20 12:04:37 AM  

Gosling: So far it seems fairly quiet. Well, considering the circumstances anyway.

Amazing what happens when you don't form the cops into a giant line and lay off the sound cannons and tear gas.


That and people start actually shooting live rounds with no care to whom gets hit.

I think that did more than anything else to sheer the crowds. It's one thing to get teargassed. It's another thing to have bullets flying past you.
 
2014-08-20 12:06:00 AM  
Tim Pool on Livestream just now: "Seems like a lot of these actions the police take... just agitate people."
 
2014-08-20 12:06:19 AM  
Cops seem to be trying to stir up some shiat right now
 
2014-08-20 12:06:40 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-08-20 12:06:43 AM  
"It's a trap"
 
2014-08-20 12:06:45 AM  

Tenz83: albatros183: Tenz83: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

No it isn't, stop baiting.

Actually it seems it is, Wiki mentions only the US, except for one in the UK, and I can think of one here locally in Canuckastain.

And how is pointing out that this is a phenomena that happens almost exclusively in a country that has a heavily militarized police force "baiting"?, FTFA "...The chief said the man told the police: "Shoot me now. Kill me now." ...."

I'm saying baiting because it just doesn't happen in only the US or UK. Only reason a wiki would have is because of the statistics have been gathered in these 2 countries. Suicide by cop is a world phenomenon.

"Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which a suicidal individual deliberately acts in a threatening way, provoking a lethal response from a law enforcement officer or other legitimately armed individual, such as being shot to death."

People all over the world do it. It's just the United States and UK compiled stats while many other countries don't bother was my point.


Look up how many folks walked toward the borders in eastern europe, and into russian gunfire. This is just a tiny little wall, in a great big world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_at_the_Berlin_Wall
 
2014-08-20 12:06:47 AM  

Cyclometh: wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?

There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.


Actually Rasputin seem to have that effect on most people in my experience, unfortunately "Operation Nifty Package" 's Wiki page doesn't say what songs they played.
 
2014-08-20 12:07:07 AM  
Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.
 
2014-08-20 12:07:13 AM  

TheJoe03: Cops seem to be trying to stir up some shiat right now


I bet the LRAD comes on in the next ten minutes.
 
2014-08-20 12:09:28 AM  

Cyclometh: wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?

There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.


Indeed, you caught the reference. But I did not suggestion anything as cruel and unusual as David Lee Roth ad infinitum.  And "crowd control" is not really the right term. It's more like de-crowding. If required, however, I would be prepared to get ruthless and put on a loop of "It's a Small World After-all". Screw the Geneva Convention.
 
2014-08-20 12:10:03 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


The problem with rolling with less lethal is that if the situation turns lethal they won't have the time to swap to appropriate measures. Using less lethal on someone already lethal will get you killed. It might be possible to go the other way, but I don't think it would be practical.
 
2014-08-20 12:10:15 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


For a bunch of reasons, but the big one is that when you really need lethal force, you're not going to have time to change mags. And a second reason is that more complexity means more mistakes. It's better for police to be trained to use their firearms properly (shoot center of mass), and never to use them at all unless it's absolutely necessary.

I mean, that's just the START of the list of reasons.

/also, rubber bullets usually aren't made of rubber
 
2014-08-20 12:10:37 AM  

MadeInDetroit: Grand jury probe will start tomorrow so a lot of questions and misinformation will be answered


Not really. It depends on the goal of the prosecutor. There isn't a defense at the grand jury, only a prosecution. Thats where the old indicting a ham sandwhich comes from.
 
2014-08-20 12:11:37 AM  

Cyclometh: Fubini: This paper in particular rejects your claim that tasers should only be used in lieu of deadly force.

You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.


As I understand, "deadly force" is defined as force that is expected, or that should be expected, to create a serious risk of death or of grievous bodily injury.

I lack the legal training to know whether use of a Taser® meets that definition, and thus I will defer to individuals with appropriate experience in the matter.
 
2014-08-20 12:13:29 AM  
DrExplosion:

What does the S stand for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNvi6xG-5Y   (Sarcasm)
 
2014-08-20 12:14:48 AM  

Tenz83: bait


Ok while that may be true it does seem very lopsided, the example cited for the UK is of a sniper(from the SWAT type unit) killing someone, which is the same as the one I am thinking of here in TO, but in the US it is a thing, ie why we even have a term for it. So it seems a bit disingenuous to to say that it is baiting, also WTF am I supposed to be baiting?, Cop hate?, pretty sure I don't need to here, pointing out that the US has a really badly broken social hierarchy is baiting?.
 
2014-08-20 12:15:01 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


Because the rules of engagement are about negating threats, and the only option with a 100% assurance of negating the threat is to kill it.

Police, unlike military, never wait for the threat to attack before engaging; by design police are supposed to shoot first.
 
2014-08-20 12:15:19 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


Interesting concept.

It would probably work for 80-85% of America. I wouldn't want that situation in large cites though. The transition period could easily be the difference between life and death if engaged with an armed individual or someone on pcp.
 
2014-08-20 12:16:22 AM  

wademh: DrExplosion:

What does the S stand for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNvi6xG-5Y   (Sarcasm)


Heh, I was wrong. I thought you were making a (very) oblique reference to the fact that the Gestapo wasn't responsible for the Holocaust, the SS was.

/I should be less of a history geek
 
2014-08-20 12:18:19 AM  

albatros183: Cyclometh: wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?

There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.

Actually Rasputin seem to have that effect on most people in my experience, unfortunately "Operation Nifty Package" 's Wiki page doesn't say what songs they played.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_in_psychological_operations 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-NshzYK9y0
 
2014-08-20 12:18:35 AM  
https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench

Antonio French @AntonioFrench  · 7s
So far, so good. https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeaceInFerguson>#PeaceInFerguson


I like the "Peace Train"
 
2014-08-20 12:19:19 AM  

nyseattitude: overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.

Interesting concept.

It would probably work for 80-85% of America. I wouldn't want that situation in large cites though. The transition period could easily be the difference between life and death if engaged with an armed individual or someone on pcp.


Plus I wouldn't want to use less lethal rounds as non law enforcement.

Many prosecutors would salivate at the use of less lethal rounds. The claik would be "I guess you really weren't in fear for your life. "
 
2014-08-20 12:19:20 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench

Antonio French @AntonioFrench  · 7s
So far, so good. https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeaceInFerguson>#PeaceInFerguson


I like the "Peace Train"


Yeah, that was cool, and a good idea.
 
2014-08-20 12:20:20 AM  

Cyclometh: wademh: DrExplosion:

What does the S stand for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNvi6xG-5Y   (Sarcasm)

Heh, I was wrong. I thought you were making a (very) oblique reference to the fact that the Gestapo wasn't responsible for the Holocaust, the SS was.

/I should be less of a history geek


Double sarcasm!? I knew the Holocaust was bad, but I'd never even heard of this. Those damn Nazis...
 
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