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(NBC News)   St. Louis City Police Chief Sam Dotson sadly gives a lesson in how to handle an officer involved shooting with a direct detailed account of another shooting   (nbcnews.com) divider line 582
    More: Scary  
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12383 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2014 at 9:16 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



582 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-08-19 06:09:25 PM  
Yep, that's how you do it


//Boobies
 
2014-08-19 06:16:31 PM  
Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.
 
2014-08-19 06:19:55 PM  
Let me see what you'll do when you're sent to kill a man
But I'll be damned if I don't take a stand
We ain't goin' out like that
We ain't goin' out like that
"We ain't goin' out!"
We ain't goin' out like that
We ain't goin' out like that
"We ain't goin' out!"
 
2014-08-19 06:21:08 PM  
Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?
 
2014-08-19 06:29:16 PM  
Recently released dispatcher tapes has police officer asking for a non white officer to respond.
 
2014-08-19 06:30:14 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?


I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms
 
2014-08-19 06:36:46 PM  
Suspect: Shoot me now. Just shoot me.
Officer1: Sir, put down the knife. Please put down the knife.
Suspect: Shoot me now. Just shoot me.
Officer2: Please sir, we're warning you. Put down the knife.
Suspect: Just shoot me. Just shoot.
Officer1 & 2: Crappola. Can we shoot ourselves instead?

 
2014-08-19 06:48:01 PM  

cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms


Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.
 
2014-08-19 07:03:52 PM  
I don't think St. Louis City cops generally carry tasers.
 
2014-08-19 08:02:32 PM  
Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.
 
2014-08-19 08:04:47 PM  

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


I got shot at for cutting in line in front of a cop at McDonalds this morning, then when I complained the departments military handyman down TANK raped my cat.  This shiat is just getting ridiculous.

Lets do this thing buddy. Do you have a catchy chant we can use?  We will both go scream it out the window for 5 minutes and then we will see real change.
 
2014-08-19 08:13:05 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.


He looked like he was on something. Toxicology tests will show he had monster energy and could not be subdued by mere flashlights.
 
2014-08-19 08:29:38 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?

 
2014-08-19 08:33:04 PM  

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.
 
2014-08-19 08:52:23 PM  
This sounds justified, at least from the facts already out.

Horrible timing, however.
 
2014-08-19 09:03:09 PM  

Litterbox: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?


Tasers are supposed to be a substitute for deadly force. Though I've been hearing not all cops have tasers, so its possible they didn't have that option.
 
2014-08-19 09:19:24 PM  
Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.
 
2014-08-19 09:21:03 PM  
I mean, shiat, you had to have gone through some sort of training to even make it onto the force, right? Surely they taught you better ways of handling yourselves. Christ.
 
2014-08-19 09:22:01 PM  
No silliness here

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-08-19 09:22:39 PM  

cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms


Same here if i could remember(Chicago), the white shirts have tasers
 
2014-08-19 09:22:57 PM  
Sure, they could have tried to subdue a man with a knife using less than lethal force like a taser or OC spray. Sure that might have been prudent considering the on-going demonstrations. But what if the man was secretly a ninja who was about to flip out on them? Better just to shoot.
 
2014-08-19 09:24:14 PM  
Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound
 
2014-08-19 09:24:21 PM  
Well the guy got what he wanted I guess.  If what the officers say is true.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:07 PM  
What happened to tasers? Do they only use those on handcuffed autistic children? A wacko with a knife is the reason tasers were invented.
Or so we were told.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:23 PM  
Can we just take the local cops' guns away and give them tasers till this shiat is over? Even if the guy had a knife and was being threatening, shooting people at this point is only making it worse.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:36 PM  
Suicide by cop in the worst possible area, at the worst possible time.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:55 PM  

Litterbox: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?


On Cops I saw them take down a guy with a samurai sword with an aluminum ladder.  They used it to pin him against the wall and then walk up and take his shiat.

Not saying that would work here, but sometimes you don't need to shoot people, even when they're armed.
 
2014-08-19 09:26:28 PM  

Uncle Eazy: I don't think St. Louis City cops generally carry tasers.


They do.  I had to do a ride along with one a few years ago.
 
2014-08-19 09:26:47 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


Rush Limbaugh already cracked the case, it's because Obama is distracting us from Benghazi.

So, yes, conspiracy.

http://m.fark.com/comments/8380584
 
2014-08-19 09:26:59 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


Tasers are an alternative to talking, shooting is an alternative to tasers.
 
2014-08-19 09:27:15 PM  

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Sure, they could have tried to subdue a man with a knife using less than lethal force like a taser or OC spray. Sure that might have been prudent considering the on-going demonstrations. But what if the man was secretly a ninja who was about to flip out on them? Better just to shoot.



They tried the least lethal force of all: verbal commands.
 
2014-08-19 09:27:59 PM  

Bazzlex001: Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound


Shooting to wound is never standard procedure, and is frankly a foolish one.

Limbs are harder to hit, so you are way more likely to miss and possibly hit someone in the background

and even if you do hit a limb, they have arteries that can cause you to bleed out within minutes if pierced.

Standard procedure in every organisation that uses guns is shoot to stop/kill. Once you fire that gun, you keep shooting until they are no longer able to pose a threat.

So once they committed to lethal force, they had to stick to it. It is unfortunate they did not, or could not, have pursued a less lethal or non-lethal approach.
 
2014-08-19 09:28:04 PM  
Also, this is as good a place as any to drop this:  http://nikaharper.tumblr.com/post/95062141305/proud

"My grandfather is a retired LAPD officer. His badge is heavy, I've held it in my child hands.
He lives in Downey CA, which if you don't know, stopped being such a nice place as the 70's era houses suggest. About 15 years ago, he heard someone stealing his car from the driveway.
It was an Oldsmobile Toronado, old thing, boat-like car that we laughed at. Ash trays in the arm rests, remember those? This car was all of it. It was a joyride waiting to happen.
My grandpa gets his gun and goes outside, to see the car backing up into the road. Unfortunately, the driver went the wrong way towards a cul-de-sac, and had to double back. My grandpa, pistol in hand, walks into the street and points the gun at the car as it comes back down the street.
The car was not going to stop. He jumped out of the way.
We asked him, "You caught someone stealing your car, why didn't you shoot?"
He replied, "I didn't keep my badge for 30 years by shooting people." "
 
2014-08-19 09:29:06 PM  

Captain Darling: They tried the least lethal force of all: verbal commands


So the escalation of force goes straight from verbal commands to bullets? Seems legit.
 
2014-08-19 09:30:46 PM  
Beanbag guns?  Net Guns? Rubber bullets?  High-Velocity Earplugs?
 
2014-08-19 09:32:08 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


The My Little Pony Killer: Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.


I'd like to know what size the knife is.

But 4 feet isn't much space for the officers,  and if they didn't have tasers well then bullets it is then because that's pretty close for someone to a cop with a knife.
 
2014-08-19 09:33:49 PM  

Boo_Guy: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

The My Little Pony Killer: Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.

I'd like to know what size the knife is.

But 4 feet isn't much space for the officers,  and if they didn't have tasers well then bullets it is then because that's pretty close for someone to a cop with a knife.


A gun is not the only choice they had in this situation, it was simply the most convenient for them.

If they didn't have tasers then that's a HUGE oversight on their part and needs to be corrected.

They are doing this so very wrong, and only digging the hole deeper with every action they take.
 
2014-08-19 09:34:00 PM  
Transparency goes a long way to helping calm things down.

I would love it if they treated police like pilots. Oh, you had a lethal use of force incident? First things first, lets run a full toxicology on you to make sure you weren't policing while impaired. Then, let's have an outside, impartial body investigate the incident (having your force investigate you is like American Air investigating an American Air crash). And finally, issue an open report that explains what went wrong, and if any improvements can be made (FAA/NTSB style).

Transparency and accountability. Not much to ask from people who are entrusted with lethal weapons by the state.

/All indications are this was justified, but an open report could help confirm it.
 
2014-08-19 09:34:10 PM  

Bazzlex001: Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound


If you are going to shoot you never aim for anything but center mass and never for anything other than to stop, which typically means kill.. Aiming for the leg of a moving person is difficult and chances are you will miss and then he will be on you with the knife. Not saying they should have tried non lethal force. But shooting anything other than center mass is never a good idea.
 
2014-08-19 09:34:12 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.


Police are trained how to disarm a suspect. In this situation there were 2 cops and 1 apparently delusional suspect.

If I were the cops I would set up a containment perimeter, call for immediate reinforcement, sit in the car and begin writing my report. So what if the delusional suspect steps away? How far can a delusional person go in 5 minutes that killing him is the best police response?
 
2014-08-19 09:35:04 PM  
Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?
 
2014-08-19 09:35:24 PM  

ginandbacon: Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.


Yeah people act like cops enjoy it, the two that I know that shot people still have nightmares about it and wonder if they did the right thing.

Also was the whole cop had a broken eye socket bullshiat or are people ignoring that point?
 
2014-08-19 09:35:29 PM  

dionysusaur: Beanbag guns?  Net Guns? Rubber bullets?  High-Velocity Earplugs?


150: I will provide funding and research to develop tactical and strategic weapons covering a full range of needs so my choices are not limited to "hand to hand combat with swords" and "blow up the planet".

The Ferguson police did not read the Evil Overlord list.
 
2014-08-19 09:35:46 PM  

firefly212: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?

Tasers are an alternative to talking, shooting is an alternative to tasers.


So you are saying instead of talking just shoot?
 
2014-08-19 09:36:32 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


Tasers are a courtesy.
 
2014-08-19 09:38:11 PM  

jasonvatch: I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.


dude fark right off
 
2014-08-19 09:38:38 PM  

dstrick44: What happened to tasers? Do they only use those on handcuffed autistic children? A wacko with a knife is the reason tasers were invented.
Or so we were told.


When all you have is a hammer...
 
2014-08-19 09:39:08 PM  

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.


No.  You attack a gun, the gun is going to be what responds. Sorry. Do not pass go, do not collect your food stamps.
 
2014-08-19 09:40:31 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.


It's easy to armchair but I do think it's a cop's job to get home alive to his family. It's all well and good to say you can take a knife wound, and most of the time you can, but then there's those dang arteries. Or, they could have not waited until he got so close and shot him in the leg, unless that didn't stop him and then they would have incited him to attack them by shooting, etc.

But the contrast in how to handle a shooting is interesting. Quickly bring in supervisors who take charge. Get clear statements from shooters and witnesses. Communicate quickly and transparently to all parties. Here's a second interview after speaking to the press. He's speaking to local residents.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-chants-heard-st-louis-cops-shoot-s us pect/story?id=25041218

As sad as this "suicide by cop" of a likely mentally-ill man is, I hope lessons can be learned in how to communicate when undesirable situations arise. I saw an additional video but can't recover the link. It showed Dotson walking into a hostile crowd and repeating his story. There were people interrupting and shouting Ferguson but most people were shushing the shouters to hear what he had to say. You could read their faces. They were very upset, angry, but listening and reluctantly understanding that the cops probably had no real choice. And Dotson was not covering up anything. It is an incredible lesson in contrast.
 
2014-08-19 09:40:42 PM  

SilentStrider: This sounds justified, at least from the facts already out.

Horrible timing, however.


From the report I heard, they waited until he was within 3 or 4 feet before opening fire. That's actually too cautious, I think.
 
2014-08-19 09:41:33 PM  
If you have a knife within 21 feet of me, you're close enough to kill me because, generally, you can rush me before I can draw and fire accurately. Knife wounds are bad, they can easily server tendons and cause permanent damage and quickly lead to shock. If you're within 21 ft, you're likely to get shot if you don't drop the knife. We don't aim at limbs, we aim at center mass; a nice big target. Even a shot to the arm or leg can bleed you out. Sometimes tasers don't work and OC spray can be resisted or have no effect. Sometimes you have no choice but to shoot.
 
2014-08-19 09:41:46 PM  
Dotson, we got Dotson here.
 
2014-08-19 09:42:37 PM  

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


WTF?  The guy charge a cop armed with a knife.  Is there any question that lethal force was justified?  Are you people really so disconnected from reality?
 
2014-08-19 09:43:26 PM  
Wow. I thought all along that there might be racism involved, but no, those poor policemen are being confronted by suicidal thugs. Who knew
 
2014-08-19 09:43:41 PM  
http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/14/interview-with-jurors-at-your-m u rder-trial-after-they-convict-you/comment-page-1/

Just a knife.

Slightly graphic, but if you can take a knife (like a boss) you should be fine.
 
2014-08-19 09:44:00 PM  

MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?


Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.
 
2014-08-19 09:44:00 PM  

ginandbacon: Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.


30 or so cops. Tazers and mace. NO OTHER OPTION but to shoot to kill a man with a KNIFE. And nothing but apologists.

This is what America has become and why other countries look at us like we are crazy.
 
2014-08-19 09:45:30 PM  

AngryDragon: WTF? The guy charge a cop armed with a knife. Is there any question that lethal force was justified?


Yes. There is a question. You say "charged" like you were a cop that was standing there. For decades, we somehow were able to disarm individuals. Mace, tasers, the other 30 cops standing there. But NOW, you just accept that shooting a human being is the Weeners.
 
2014-08-19 09:45:55 PM  
Two St. Louis city police officers shot and killed a black man who came within several feet of them brandishing a knife on Tuesday a few miles from the turbulent suburb of Ferguson, authorities said. \

/non story. Save your derp for a actual shooting where the suspect was unarmed. But I'm sure that the derp will flow, such as "why didn't they tase him", or my personal favorite, "why didn't they shoot the knife out of his hand" or the everlasting non dying statement, "if he had not been black, they would have not shot him so many times".

/please continue your raging.
 
2014-08-19 09:46:00 PM  
People watch way to many movies.  You don't shoot the weapon out of the guys hands.  You don't shoot at limbs.  You don't use tasers on an attacking person.  Tasers are horribly inacurate weapons if someone is charging you with a knife you can not trust to hit him with both barbs of the taser.
 
2014-08-19 09:46:24 PM  

LoneWolf343: SilentStrider: This sounds justified, at least from the facts already out.

Horrible timing, however.

From the report I heard, they waited until he was within 3 or 4 feet before opening fire. That's actually too cautious, I think.


All he had as a weapon was a knife. Maybe the cops could have raised the car windows?
 
2014-08-19 09:47:53 PM  

thaylin: Bazzlex001: Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound

If you are going to shoot you never aim for anything but center mass and never for anything other than to stop, which typically means kill.. Aiming for the leg of a moving person is difficult and chances are you will miss and then he will be on you with the knife. Not saying they should have tried non lethal force. But shooting anything other than center mass is never a good idea.


That makes sense, but My understanding is that he was immobile for a significant amount of time before he lunged at them.

Regardless, this brings to light a better question than that: why the Fark do these police departments have mine-resistant APCs, but a negligible amount of tasers? -_-
 
2014-08-19 09:48:12 PM  

jasonvatch: I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.


You clearly have no training or experience in these matters at all, or else you wouldn't say that. If you are in a knife fight, you are losing. It doesn't matter if your weapon has a bit more reach and you have a bit more training. If you are in a knife fight, you are losing. A little MA training doesn't make you invincible, and what cops learn is minimal. If you are in a knife fight, you are losing. Real life ain't like the movies.
 
2014-08-19 09:48:40 PM  
and of course if he got tazered and then fell and cracked his head open, people would be yelling about why they didn't try some other method.
 
2014-08-19 09:49:01 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


/ i would say trying to use a taser on a crazed knife wielding man would be idiocy.  What if you miss? He had a knife, and showed intent to use it, and would not stop, but don't let that stop you.  Maybe they could have shot the gun out of his hand like anney oakley, because nobody misses in a high tension situation. (points to above post.)
 
2014-08-19 09:50:15 PM  

img2.wikia.nocookie.net

 
2014-08-19 09:50:53 PM  
I am okay with his one. No one in their right mind would grapple a crazy man with a knife if there were any other options available. Guy rushed the cops and was literally asking to be killed.

I feel bad for the cops being forced to be this jerks suicide tool. No one should be put through that.
 
2014-08-19 09:51:15 PM  

Dog Man: If you have a knife within 21 feet of me, you're close enough to kill me because, generally, you can rush me before I can draw and fire accurately. Knife wounds are bad, they can easily server tendons and cause permanent damage and quickly lead to shock. If you're within 21 ft, you're likely to get shot if you don't drop the knife. We don't aim at limbs, we aim at center mass; a nice big target. Even a shot to the arm or leg can bleed you out. Sometimes tasers don't work and OC spray can be resisted or have no effect. Sometimes you have no choice but to shoot.


Yep -- I think it was an officer with the SLC police dept who concluded that an attacker could cover that 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Not much time to react and defend your self.
 
2014-08-19 09:51:31 PM  
They should have let him go...their presence only made him crazier.


Or They should have just tickled him...

Maybe sang to him...

Blew kisses?

Seriously guys, this thread is a biggest cop- hating circle jerk I have seen on here in a while.
 
2014-08-19 09:51:33 PM  

El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.


Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly
 
2014-08-19 09:51:51 PM  

mediablitz: ginandbacon: Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.

30 or so cops. Tazers and mace. NO OTHER OPTION but to shoot to kill a man with a KNIFE. And nothing but apologists.

This is what America has become and why other countries look at us like we are crazy.


They waited way longer than what was reasonable before opening fire. You people looking for any reason to kill a pig are he crazy ones.
 
2014-08-19 09:52:09 PM  

wademh: He's speaking to local residents.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-chants-heard-st-louis-cops-shoot-s us pect/story?id=25041218


Sorry, they morphed the link or I screwed up.
 
2014-08-19 09:52:39 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?

/ i would say trying to use a taser on a crazed knife wielding man would be idiocy.  What if you miss? He had a knife, and showed intent to use it, and would not stop, but don't let that stop you.  Maybe they could have shot the gun out of his hand like anney oakley, because nobody misses in a high tension situation. (points to above post.)


If they had tasers availible, I think the best course of action is to have one officer tase while the second covers with his service weapon.

I would say the lethal force was justified, but that they should of tried to explore less lethal avenues first.   Its an unfortunate event, but nothing wrong was done. It just could of been handled better. Especially with two officers involved, one could keep lethal force ready while less lethal was attempted.
 
2014-08-19 09:53:03 PM  

mediablitz: ginandbacon: Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.

30 or so cops. Tazers and mace. NO OTHER OPTION but to shoot to kill a man with a KNIFE. And nothing but apologists.

This is what America has become and why other countries look at us like we are crazy.


Yeah, I'm a real apologist baby.
 
2014-08-19 09:53:18 PM  

LineNoise: and of course if he got tazered and then fell and cracked his head open, people would be yelling about why they didn't try some other method.


You could've tickled him until he dropped the knife!!
 
2014-08-19 09:53:30 PM  
Political Unrest Stabilize Society Yes.
 
2014-08-19 09:54:28 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly


So ninja cops?
 
ecl
2014-08-19 09:54:28 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.


I'm blind!
 
2014-08-19 09:54:38 PM  

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


/ i have explained this before, and i guess i have to again.  The cops generally use equal force plus one.  That means, if you are wanting to fight with no weapon, you're getting 1. the mace, or 2. the nightstick, or 3, tased. That is equal force plus one.  if you have a weapon, such as a knife, im not going to fence you with my nightstick, nor am i going to attempt to tase you, as that could fail. (thick clothing..or just miss). If you have a weapon, knife, heavy club, gun, etc....you're getting shot.  That again is equal force plus one. I'm not letting you get that close to me so i can play swords with you having a knife, and me a nightstick.   I have no idea why this is so hard to understand. it's the way all the police departments are trained.  if you want to fight a guy who has a knife and you have a stick, more power to you.
 
2014-08-19 09:54:51 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly


Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless
 
2014-08-19 09:54:59 PM  

Bazzlex001: Regardless, this brings to light a better question than that: why the Fark do these police departments have mine-resistant APCs, but a negligible amount of tasers? -_-


A quick google tells me that a tazer and a few rounds for it costs about a grand. Now you need to train your cops to use it. Now you need to maintain them, replace spent\bad rounds, keep guys current on its use, etc. All for something that isn't going to be used that often.

The things I've been seeing the cops ride around in aren't mine resistant apc's. They are basically chevy suburbans with a bunch of shiat welded to them. While I'm sure they don't come cheap, they are more or less one time costs. While they aren't going to be employed regularly, when they are they will likely be the difference in a situation.

A tazer is more for a guy is resisting arrest\lawful orders than charging you with a knife, because a tazer isn't going to work all the time.
 
2014-08-19 09:55:05 PM  
phillbarron.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-08-19 09:55:29 PM  

moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?

Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.


great speech but only one problem. Police in the rest of the country are trained on matching appropriate force with force with most never having to fire a weapon one time on duty in their careers. You have nightsticks, pepper spray, mace, flash grenades, rubber bullets, bean bags, LRAD, extensive hand to hand training to disarm a knife, or wait for it...talking down the situation using all four years of the criminal justice degree you earned. The rest of the police across the country somehow are able to do this and excel at their job protecting the country.
 
2014-08-19 09:56:21 PM  

Delay: If I were the cops I would set up a containment perimeter, call for immediate reinforcement, sit in the car and begin writing my report. So what if the delusional suspect steps away? How far can a delusional person go in 5 minutes that killing him is the best police response?


I dunno - seems like he only has to go down one or two houses to find an innocent bystander to kill. But yeah, cops should just wait it out in the car. That lady two doors down is a biatch anyway
 
2014-08-19 09:56:39 PM  

Bazzlex001: Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound


/sighs....points to Boobies.
 
2014-08-19 09:57:29 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?


I am.

I was trained how to deal with a cray-cray with boxcutters prior to 09/11/2001.

How  do you think I feel about this whole "hey, we're authority, we were born in 1996, and do as we say" shait?
 
2014-08-19 09:57:33 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


The more like a warzone the place looks like to people at home the more they look justified playing army.
 
2014-08-19 09:57:40 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: I dunno - seems like he only has to go down one or two houses to find an innocent bystander to kill. But yeah, cops should just wait it out in the car. That lady two doors down is a biatch anyway


Its her fault for not having a knight stick or krav maga training. Both are readily available on the internet.
 
2014-08-19 09:57:53 PM  
Are we seriously arguing how to handle a suicide by cop?
 
2014-08-19 09:58:12 PM  
They pull a knife, you pull a gun. That's the St. Louis way.
cdn.mos.totalfilm.com
 
2014-08-19 09:58:18 PM  

wademh: Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.

He looked like he was on something. Toxicology tests will show he had monster energy and could not be subdued by mere flashlights.


www.productwiki.com
 
2014-08-19 09:59:14 PM  

moothemagiccow: Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives?


Blaze away. They bought their ticket.
 
2014-08-19 09:59:15 PM  

MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?

Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.

great speech but only one problem. Police in the rest of the country are trained on matching appropriate force with force with most never having to fire a weapon one time on duty in their careers. You have nightsticks, pepper spray, mace, flash grenades, rubber bullets, bean bags, LRAD, extensive hand to hand training to disarm a knife, or wait for it...talking down the situation using all four years of the criminal justice degree you earned. The rest of the police across the country somehow are able to do this and excel at their job protecting the country.


Hahahahaha you think this is an isolated incident? This is just the newest one you heard about. I'm sorry I couldn't get you to be a better advocate. I could really give a shiat that cops wear guns and occasionally use them.
 
2014-08-19 09:59:19 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly


Back in the times of the samurai, the real samurai and not the romantic crap that popped up in the Edo period, it was considered embarrassing to be an expert swordsman, because being an expert swordsman meant you were terrible with your bow and your spear.
 
2014-08-19 09:59:22 PM  

moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless


Yeah, how do people train for combat?  Gee I guess no Marine has ever learned to kill with his hands.  No martial artist in history has ever been capable of taking a blade from a punk.
 
2014-08-19 10:00:00 PM  
Wouldn't the best possible outcome of this and the Michael Brown situation to be that the cops were totally justified in their actions? That they did their jobs correctly and used good judgement, their lethal force was justified?

It's crazy that there are people who seem to be passionately hoping for the exact opposite and would almost never accept, despite any facts presented to them, that maybe these cops did the right thing.

And I say that knowing full well that there are horrible, a-hole, badge wearing muthafarkers out there who have no business doing the job. I've met a few in my days.
 
2014-08-19 10:00:02 PM  
Why didn't the deceased use his taser?  Aren't those like Obama Phones?
 
2014-08-19 10:00:35 PM  
When you pull a knife on a gun, you get a gun.

Play stupid games, get stupid prizes.
 
2014-08-19 10:00:36 PM  
Why didn't the police use water cannons, or shoot the guy with ear plugs?
 
2014-08-19 10:02:20 PM  

HeathenHealer: Wouldn't the best possible outcome of this and the Michael Brown situation to be that the cops were totally justified in their actions? That they did their jobs correctly and used good judgement, their lethal force was justified?

It's crazy that there are people who seem to be passionately hoping for the exact opposite and would almost never accept, despite any facts presented to them, that maybe these cops did the right thing.

And I say that knowing full well that there are horrible, a-hole, badge wearing muthafarkers out there who have no business doing the job. I've met a few in my days.


Don't you understand? This isn't about that anymore. Its about the militarization of police. Or the hold of the man on society. Or student loan debt. Or, well, hell, what is your personal pocket issue, give me a few minutes and I'll figure out a way to tangently attach it to this.
 
2014-08-19 10:02:46 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


I am going to have to disagree. This guy wanted to die, and got his wish.
 
2014-08-19 10:02:53 PM  

Yogimus: http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/14/interview-with-jurors-at-your-m u rder-trial-after-they-convict-you/comment-page-1/

Just a knife.

Slightly graphic, but if you can take a knife (like a boss) you should be fine.


/thank you for your post, this shows that 1. you dont let a crazed asshole like this within 20 feet of you, shooting him in the leg, using a taser, or mace, or even more stupid, a nightstick is pure retardation.  You shoot the prick.   Knives can do much more damage and you can die much quicker from blood loss and shock.  i would rather take a round than get slashed with a knife.
 
2014-08-19 10:03:18 PM  

Yogimus: Slightly graphic.


i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
 
2014-08-19 10:03:40 PM  

HeathenHealer: Wouldn't the best possible outcome of this and the Michael Brown situation to be that the cops were totally justified in their actions? That they did their jobs correctly and used good judgement, their lethal force was justified?

It's crazy that there are people who seem to be passionately hoping for the exact opposite and would almost never accept, despite any facts presented to them, that maybe these cops did the right thing.

And I say that knowing full well that there are horrible, a-hole, badge wearing muthafarkers out there who have no business doing the job. I've met a few in my days.


I said this to a co-worker the other day.  If the Brown shooting was found 100% justified would then all the Fergason cops get found guilty for over reaching since then.
 
2014-08-19 10:03:44 PM  

NickelP: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

I got shot at for cutting in line in front of a cop at McDonalds this morning, then when I complained the departments military handyman down TANK raped my cat.  This shiat is just getting ridiculous.

Lets do this thing buddy. Do you have a catchy chant we can use?  We will both go scream it out the window for 5 minutes and then we will see real change.


Robotussin is a helluva drug.
 
2014-08-19 10:04:13 PM  
Hah, CNN giving a live shot right now, and the guy is trying to say how it is peaceful, and the guy literally right behind him is holding a molotov cocktail.
 
2014-08-19 10:05:16 PM  
Typical response. Kill because they fear they might get a boo-boo from a kid. The job actually isn't very dangerous but they get this "us versus them" mentality that makes it easy to put "others" (aka civilians) down.
 
2014-08-19 10:06:15 PM  
I have played Double Dragon enough to know the cops really only needed to do a jump kick on the suspect. Such an attack is enough to cause said suspect to drop his weapon...the officer will land in a crouching position, but he will be able to stand before the suspect does and thus be the first to retrieve the weapon.

Just saying...
 
2014-08-19 10:06:16 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless

Yeah, how do people train for combat?  Gee I guess no Marine has ever learned to kill with his hands.  No martial artist in history has ever been capable of taking a blade from a punk.


Nobody gets mad when a marine kills somebody
 
2014-08-19 10:06:41 PM  

Elegy: Yogimus: Slightly graphic.

[i.imgur.com image 750x360]

[i.imgur.com image 750x487]


No, really. That is slightly graphic. Only slightly. Try being a 1st responder to a knife attack, and you will see significantly less "slightly".  (did you know cheeks are orange on the inside?)

Pull a knife, you get shot. Fail to drop the knife on your way down? fark you, I am not approaching you for 1st aid. Good luck, hope you make it, and if not, hope you're insured.
 
2014-08-19 10:06:52 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless

Yeah, how do people train for combat?  Gee I guess no Marine has ever learned to kill with his hands.  No martial artist in history has ever been capable of taking a blade from a punk.


1.) Marines have significantly more MA training than police, and 2.) a Marine is only going to use hand to hand when he is out of ammo, can't get anymore, or you are way too close, and 3.) the Marine's training is for lethal use of martial arts. Your comparison is bullshiat.
 
2014-08-19 10:07:04 PM  

moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?

Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.

great speech but only one problem. Police in the rest of the country are trained on matching appropriate force with force with most never having to fire a weapon one time on duty in their careers. You have nightsticks, pepper spray, mace, flash grenades, rubber bullets, bean bags, LRAD, extensive hand to hand training to disarm a knife, or wait for it...talking down the situation using all four years of the criminal justice degree you earned. The rest of the police across the country somehow are able to do this and excel at their job protecting the country.

Hahahahaha you think this is an isolated incident? This is just the newest one you heard about. I'm sorry I couldn't get you to be a better advocate. I could really give a shiat that cops wear guns and occasionally use them.


Maybe not isolated but definitely rare and unusual. Most people will put the knife down when cops draw their guns.

Does anyone really think that most cops are ninjaing knives out of people's hands on a daily basis?
 
2014-08-19 10:07:40 PM  

PanicMan: Litterbox: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?

On Cops I saw them take down a guy with a samurai sword with an aluminum ladder.  They used it to pin him against the wall and then walk up and take his shiat.

Not saying that would work here, but sometimes you don't need to shoot people, even when they're armed.


Cops don't usually carry ladders.


If someone comes at me with a knife, I am shooting.


In self defense and police training, we were taught that a guy with a knife is far more dangerous than a guy with a gun.


Knives create far more dangerous wounds than guns do. Also a far slower and horrible death.

Tasers were not meant to replace guns, they were meant to replace clubs.
 
2014-08-19 10:07:51 PM  

WhyKnot: I have played Double Dragon enough to know the cops really only needed to do a jump kick on the suspect. Such an attack is enough to cause said suspect to drop his weapon...the officer will land in a crouching position, but he will be able to stand before the suspect does and thus be the first to retrieve the weapon.

Just saying...


That kind of tactic is uncalled for. Society did not give the protesters the advantage of the "B" button, let alone the Nintendo Max pad that the cops received from the US Government.
 
ecl
2014-08-19 10:07:53 PM  
I didn't think anyone would show up the last couple nights.  Maybe tonight will be different?
 
2014-08-19 10:08:14 PM  
Marches on the KARG livestream now.
 
2014-08-19 10:08:36 PM  

mediablitz: ginandbacon: Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.

30 or so cops. Tazers and mace. NO OTHER OPTION but to shoot to kill a man with a KNIFE. And nothing but apologists.

This is what America has become and why other countries look at us like we are crazy.


/yes, how dare they defend their lives from a crazed asshole charging at them with a knife.  What were they thinking? They should have totally just wrestled around with him and let him carve them up.
 
2014-08-19 10:08:48 PM  

LoneWolf343: Smeggy Smurf: moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless

Yeah, how do people train for combat?  Gee I guess no Marine has ever learned to kill with his hands.  No martial artist in history has ever been capable of taking a blade from a punk.

1.) Marines have significantly more MA training than police, and 2.) a Marine is only going to use hand to hand when he is out of ammo, can't get anymore, or you are way too close, and 3.) the Marine's training is for lethal use of martial arts. Your comparison is bullshiat.


Oh, and the big thing worthy of note, even with all of their expert training, Marines still manage to get killed anyway!
 
2014-08-19 10:08:55 PM  

mediablitz: ginandbacon: Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.

30 or so cops. Tazers and mace. NO OTHER OPTION but to shoot to kill a man with a KNIFE. And nothing but apologists.

This is what America has become and why other countries look at us like we are crazy.


For values of 30 equal to 2. 2 cops on the scene.  From available information, they first engaged without weapons drawn despite the fact that they suspect was identified as brandishing a knife. He wanted them to shoot him. It's sad as he's pretty clearly mentally-ill but they had no way of knowing ahead of time that he was going to force their hand. And they have no way of knowing, if they simply retreated back into their squad car, would he force the situation by attacking somebody on the street. He put them in a no-win situation.

\Kobayashi Maru
 
2014-08-19 10:09:19 PM  

Yogimus: http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/14/interview-with-jurors-at-your-m u rder-trial-after-they-convict-you/comment-page-1/

Just a knife.

Slightly graphic, but if you can take a knife (like a boss) you should be fine.


Holy fark. That just shows in the right hands you can bring a knife to a gun fight.
 
2014-08-19 10:10:15 PM  

AngryDragon: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

WTF?  The guy charge a cop armed with a knife.  Is there any question that lethal force was justified?  Are you people really so disconnected from reality?


Some of the dumbest people on the internet are on fark.
 
2014-08-19 10:11:07 PM  

dstrick44: What happened to tasers? Do they only use those on handcuffed autistic children? A wacko with a knife is the reason tasers were invented.
Or so we were told.


The same folks who whine about cops using guns on perps...are the same ones who also complain when cops use tasers on perps

Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun
 
2014-08-19 10:11:13 PM  
Unfortunately, it could very well have been justified in this case, and I can't exactly blame the St. Louis cops (who it should be noted have not been involved in anything regarding Ferguson so far, as St. Louis City and St. Louis County are two distinctly different locations). A less-than-lethal alternative may have been possible, but I could buy there not being one. At the very least, they had an obviously different situation than in Ferguson.

But holy crap, the optics of it are just awful and I think they know it.
 
2014-08-19 10:11:17 PM  
That knife was a small one, a 2 inch blade if I recall correctly.
 
2014-08-19 10:11:24 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Delay: If I were the cops I would set up a containment perimeter, call for immediate reinforcement, sit in the car and begin writing my report. So what if the delusional suspect steps away? How far can a delusional person go in 5 minutes that killing him is the best police response?

I dunno - seems like he only has to go down one or two houses to find an innocent bystander to kill. But yeah, cops should just wait it out in the car. That lady two doors down is a biatch anyway


Why would he do that? All his actions targeted the police. And, anyway, if that lady two doors down were blah, wouldn't she deserve to be killed?
 
2014-08-19 10:12:06 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless

Yeah, how do people train for combat?  Gee I guess no Marine has ever learned to kill with his hands.  No martial artist in history has ever been capable of taking a blade from a punk.


Weren't you complaining about he over militization of the police? Now you are going to say they were 'marine' enough.

Oh, okay.
 
2014-08-19 10:12:11 PM  

FloridaFarkTag: Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun


This is a lie.
 
2014-08-19 10:12:34 PM  
FTA: The chief said that the officers repeatedly ordered the 23-year-old man to drop the knife and drew their weapons after he refused. The chief said the man told the police: "Shoot me now. Kill me now."

i1182.photobucket.com
 
2014-08-19 10:12:56 PM  

moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?

Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.

great speech but only one problem. Police in the rest of the country are trained on matching appropriate force with force with most never having to fire a weapon one time on duty in their careers. You have nightsticks, pepper spray, mace, flash grenades, rubber bullets, bean bags, LRAD, extensive hand to hand training to disarm a knife, or wait for it...talking down the situation using all four years of the criminal justice degree you earned. The rest of the police across the country somehow are able to do this and excel at their job protecting the country.

Hahahahaha you think this is an isolated incident? This is just the newest one you heard about. I'm sorry I couldn't get you to be a better advocate. I could really give a shiat that cops wear guns and occasionally use them.


No these occurrences happen all day but yet not all of them result in police shooting them. Mental illness or on drugs calls don't all end in police shootings. I come from a family of cops (grandfather, great grandfather, mom, brother, uncles, and cousins) so I hear about these types of calls but oddly they don't all end in shooting but protecting them from themselves and getting the help they need.
 
2014-08-19 10:13:26 PM  
of course the obvious option of putting a car between the officers and the perp - or even backing away refusing to be agents of suicide until a third party could tase him..

well lets just say the whole donut-meme got a big boost out of this. I understand being charged by a guy with a knife - i really do - but the way the cops tell it, they had lots of time to figure out something just by getting in their cop car and locking the door. Kid was obviously mentally distressed and the cops did exactly what the guy wanted.

I dont call that winning, no matter their reasons.. i would have been very impressed to hear our boys in blue had gloves to go with their body armor (or does that just make too much sense?)
 
2014-08-19 10:13:53 PM  

Yogimus: That knife was a small one, a 2 inch blade if I recall correctly.


Jesus, you're not secretly Chuck Palahniuk, are you? Your posts are like reading one of his novels.
 
2014-08-19 10:14:07 PM  

Yogimus: FloridaFarkTag: Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun

This is a lie.


Tasers can and do kill. Just because their risk of lethality is lower does not make them non-lethal in every case.
 
2014-08-19 10:14:30 PM  
I was skeptical at the beginning but now I'm certain of it. Charles Manson is the maestro of this entire operation.
 
2014-08-19 10:14:51 PM  

Private_Citizen: Transparency goes a long way to helping calm things down.

I would love it if they treated police like pilots. Oh, you had a lethal use of force incident? First things first, lets run a full toxicology on you to make sure you weren't policing while impaired. Then, let's have an outside, impartial body investigate the incident (having your force investigate you is like American Air investigating an American Air crash). And finally, issue an open report that explains what went wrong, and if any improvements can be made (FAA/NTSB style).

Transparency and accountability. Not much to ask from people who are entrusted with lethal weapons by the state.

/All indications are this was justified, but an open report could help confirm it.


Wow??? Is someone sounding sensible? ...you must leave fark, NOW!.... BUT SAY SOMETHING MYSOGINISTIC FIRST!!!!
 
2014-08-19 10:15:04 PM  

NickelP: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

I got shot at for cutting in line in front of a cop at McDonalds this morning, then when I complained the departments military handyman down TANK raped my cat.  This shiat is just getting ridiculous.

Lets do this thing buddy. Do you have a catchy chant we can use?  We will both go scream it out the window for 5 minutes and then we will see real change.


thelifeofjwo.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-08-19 10:15:54 PM  

sobriquet by any other name: of course the obvious option of putting a car between the officers and the perp - or even backing away refusing to be agents of suicide until a third party could tase him..

well lets just say the whole donut-meme got a big boost out of this. I understand being charged by a guy with a knife - i really do - but the way the cops tell it, they had lots of time to figure out something just by getting in their cop car and locking the door. Kid was obviously mentally distressed and the cops did exactly what the guy wanted.

I dont call that winning, no matter their reasons.. i would have been very impressed to hear our boys in blue had gloves to go with their body armor (or does that just make too much sense?)


no, the obvious solution is to send him away with more holes than he came with. You are considering out of the box solutions.  Ask yourself this: What did society LOSE by the removal of this particular bag of crazy? What did it gain?


/Who gets to choose?
//The guy you threatened to knife. He gets to choose.
///His decision is final in this matter.
 
2014-08-19 10:16:40 PM  

Yogimus: No, really. That is slightly graphic. Only slightly.


Fark off. And fark your argument. I could give a shiat less about your farking point.

Slightly graphic is grainy surveillance footage of 3 robbers jumping a shop owner in a blur of shiatty frame rate and resolution. Slightly graphic is three people carrying a fight out of frame, and two people coming back in frame. Slighly graphic is a body lying in a street 30 feet away.

Slightly graphic is not well lit medical shots of people farking flayed open from a knife fight.

Tag your farking links appropriately. I don't mind gore per say but I want to know it's its gore before I farking click on it - the same way I don't like clicking links that say "artistic nudes" and getting "the best of bestiality anal prolapse 7."
 
2014-08-19 10:16:57 PM  

Cyclometh: Yogimus: FloridaFarkTag: Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun

This is a lie.

Tasers can and do kill. Just because their risk of lethality is lower does not make them non-lethal in every case.


HARDLY makes them nearly as bad as a gun.

THEY ARE JUST LIKE HITLER! level of stupid in that statement.
 
2014-08-19 10:17:19 PM  

LoneWolf343: Smeggy Smurf: moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless

Yeah, how do people train for combat?  Gee I guess no Marine has ever learned to kill with his hands.  No martial artist in history has ever been capable of taking a blade from a punk.

1.) Marines have significantly more MA training than police, and 2.) a Marine is only going to use hand to hand when he is out of ammo, can't get anymore, or you are way too close, and 3.) the Marine's training is for lethal use of martial arts. Your comparison is bullshiat.


MCMAP is also focused mostly on using your weapon as well. Training is using fists are only a last resort measure, and the field manual recommends against it but understands it is a natural instinctual reaction. Elbows and legs are to augment knife or rifle being used as a club/spear.

Very unlikely to catch a Marine without their rifle or their knife, unless they have EASed.

Though Police get some good martial arts experience, at least where I am from. Friend of mine is a Karate Black Belt, and he helps train police classes. Heard some really neat stories from him. Sounds fun playing belligerent suspect. Situations varied from bar brawl to domestic abuse. They were trained to de-escalate or subdue physically. Normally, they didn't have an oppurtunity to reach for a simulated taser or service gun.
 
2014-08-19 10:17:30 PM  

MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?

Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.

great speech but only one problem. Police in the rest of the country are trained on matching appropriate force with force with most never having to fire a weapon one time on duty in their careers. You have nightsticks, pepper spray, mace, flash grenades, rubber bullets, bean bags, LRAD, extensive hand to hand training to disarm a knife, or wait for it...talking down the situation using all four years of the criminal justice degree you earned. The rest of the police across the country somehow are able to do this and excel at their job protecting the country.

Hahahahaha you think this is an isolated incident? This is just the newest one you heard about. I'm sorry I couldn't get you to be a better advocate. I could really give a shiat that cops wear guns and occasionally use them.

No these occurrences happen all day but yet not all of them result in police shooting them. Mental illness or ...


There's nothing special about the STL metro police. They're not any more shooty than any other region's cops, believe it or not. You seriously haven't heard of "suicide by cop?"
 
2014-08-19 10:17:38 PM  

uncle soondead: I said this to a co-worker the other day.  If the Brown shooting was found 100% justified would then all the Fergason cops get found guilty for over reaching since then.


Well you tell me. Compare this guys press conference with how Ferguson PD handled the situation. You don't see Dotson pulling a "bring it on" sort of mentality here, do you? We still don't even have an official accounting of what the police say happened when Wilson shot Brown. If this rumor mill account of an charge back into gunfire was the story day 1, why has it been withheld? Beyond a desire to generate lots and lots of overtime.
 
2014-08-19 10:17:40 PM  
They didn't even need tasers in this case. Just back off and stop trying to project their authoritah like the trained monkeys that they are.
 
2014-08-19 10:18:21 PM  

vodka: They didn't even need tasers in this case. Just back off and stop trying to project their authoritah like the trained monkeys that they are.


here that everyone, from now on, if you question a cop, they have to lock themselves in their car until you go away.
 
2014-08-19 10:18:36 PM  

moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless


Crackheads never follow the script.
 
2014-08-19 10:18:42 PM  

Elegy: Yogimus: No, really. That is slightly graphic. Only slightly.

Fark off. And fark your argument. I could give a shiat less about your farking point.

Slightly graphic is grainy surveillance footage of 3 robbers jumping a shop owner in a blur of shiatty frame rate and resolution. Slightly graphic is three people carrying a fight out of frame, and two people coming back in frame. Slighly graphic is a body lying in a street 30 feet away.

Slightly graphic is not well lit medical shots of people farking flayed open from a knife fight.

Tag your farking links appropriately. I don't mind gore per say but I want to know it's its gore before I farking click on it - the same way I don't like clicking links that say "artistic nudes" and getting "the best of bestiality anal prolapse 7."


Seriously... that is only slightly graphic. Want me to post some real shiat? I would prefer not to. Not much need to see what happens during puncture wounds, or when intestines vacate through un-natural holes. You're a big boy. control your mouse.
 
2014-08-19 10:20:17 PM  

Yogimus: HARDLY makes them nearly as bad as a gun.

THEY ARE JUST LIKE HITLER! level of stupid in that statement.


Jesus Christ, settle down, Francis. You're gonna give yourself a coronary.

Yes, they are nearly as bad as a gun, because they're still a deadly weapon and should not be used unless it's really necessary because there's no good reason to risk someone's life just because a cop needs a midol.
 
2014-08-19 10:20:21 PM  

Delay: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Delay: If I were the cops I would set up a containment perimeter, call for immediate reinforcement, sit in the car and begin writing my report. So what if the delusional suspect steps away? How far can a delusional person go in 5 minutes that killing him is the best police response?

I dunno - seems like he only has to go down one or two houses to find an innocent bystander to kill. But yeah, cops should just wait it out in the car. That lady two doors down is a biatch anyway

Why would he do that? All his actions targeted the police.


Because a delusional person would never mistake Ms. Finch in 13B with a CIA agent broadcasting painwaves into his skull. All his actions up to that point  targeted the police, so it's clear he would do nothing but target the police from that point forward, because if there's one thing we know about delusional people, they are extremely  predictable
 
2014-08-19 10:20:36 PM  

Elegy: Yogimus: No, really. That is slightly graphic. Only slightly.

Fark off. And fark your argument. I could give a shiat less about your farking point.

Slightly graphic is grainy surveillance footage of 3 robbers jumping a shop owner in a blur of shiatty frame rate and resolution. Slightly graphic is three people carrying a fight out of frame, and two people coming back in frame. Slighly graphic is a body lying in a street 30 feet away.

Slightly graphic is not well lit medical shots of people farking flayed open from a knife fight.

Tag your farking links appropriately. I don't mind gore per say but I want to know it's its gore before I farking click on it - the same way I don't like clicking links that say "artistic nudes" and getting "the best of bestiality anal prolapse 7."


Everyone in this thread who acts like a knife isn't a big deal should take a long hard look at those picture.

If you are lucky/unlucky enough to survive a knife fight, thats usually how you end up looking.

It definately is not fun helping to hold a guys guts in on the way to the hospital.
 
2014-08-19 10:21:06 PM  
So I don't have a good frame of reference yet tonight.  Where is KARG in relation to yesterday, and where are the police?
 
2014-08-19 10:21:09 PM  

Elegy: "the best of bestiality anal prolapse 7."


Do you have a link for that?
 
2014-08-19 10:21:32 PM  
In regard to the situation in TFA, I don't see how the cops could have easily gotten out of it without using deadly force. The guy was clearly bent on it and once things get past a certain point, it's game on. This was pretty clearly a justifiable, if regrettable, use of force- based on what information we have right now.
 
2014-08-19 10:21:40 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly


See:

LoneWolf343: You clearly have no training or experience in these matters at all, or else you wouldn't say that. If you are in a knife fight, you are losing. It doesn't matter if your weapon has a bit more reach and you have a bit more training. If you are in a knife fight, you are losing. A little MA training doesn't make you invincible, and what cops learn is minimal. If you are in a knife fight, you are losing. Real life ain't like the movies.

 
2014-08-19 10:22:30 PM  

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


i.qkme.me
 
2014-08-19 10:22:42 PM  

Yogimus: Elegy: Yogimus: No, really. That is slightly graphic. Only slightly.

Fark off. And fark your argument. I could give a shiat less about your farking point.

Slightly graphic is grainy surveillance footage of 3 robbers jumping a shop owner in a blur of shiatty frame rate and resolution. Slightly graphic is three people carrying a fight out of frame, and two people coming back in frame. Slighly graphic is a body lying in a street 30 feet away.

Slightly graphic is not well lit medical shots of people farking flayed open from a knife fight.

Tag your farking links appropriately. I don't mind gore per say but I want to know it's its gore before I farking click on it - the same way I don't like clicking links that say "artistic nudes" and getting "the best of bestiality anal prolapse 7."

Seriously... that is only slightly graphic. Want me to post some real shiat? I would prefer not to. Not much need to see what happens during puncture wounds, or when intestines vacate through un-natural holes. You're a big boy. control your mouse.


I agree. However that image did give me that funny feeling like when we used to climb the rope in gym class.
 
2014-08-19 10:22:46 PM  

RogermcAllen: So I don't have a good frame of reference yet tonight.  Where is KARG in relation to yesterday, and where are the police?


I've been following it, seems to be down at the moment. It was following a march earlier, with just a few police with regular uniforms and long batons walking around. Seemed pretty quiet.
 
2014-08-19 10:22:59 PM  

vodka: They didn't even need tasers in this case. Just back off and stop trying to project their authoritah like the trained monkeys that they are.


This is less stupid than the geniuses up thread suggesting they should've knocked it out of his hand with a flashlight, but it's still not particularly smart if there are other people around.
 
2014-08-19 10:23:24 PM  

Yogimus: http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/14/interview-with-jurors-at-your-m u rder-trial-after-they-convict-you/comment-page-1/

Just a knife.

Slightly graphic, but if you can take a knife (like a boss) you should be fine.


...that is not what I'd call 'slightly' graphic. That's the aftermath of a vigorous night of loving from Edward Scissorhands.
 
2014-08-19 10:23:39 PM  

Cyclometh: Yes, they are nearly as bad as a gun, because they're still a deadly weapon and should not be used unless it's really necessary because there's no good reason to risk someone's life just because a cop needs a midol.


I would like to see nothing more than tasers be stripped from law enforcement use.

They are not anywhere NEAR as bad as a gun. Your statement is avant garde level of disassociated with reality.  See, the reason I take issue with your statement, is because I am on YOUR side in this debate, and quite frankly, you're not helping with that nonsense.
 
2014-08-19 10:23:48 PM  

Cyclometh: RogermcAllen: So I don't have a good frame of reference yet tonight.  Where is KARG in relation to yesterday, and where are the police?

I've been following it, seems to be down at the moment. It was following a march earlier, with just a few police with regular uniforms and long batons walking around. Seemed pretty quiet.


Police sound on edge on the scanner though. Saying the crowd is growing and becoming more aggressive.
 
2014-08-19 10:23:48 PM  

Cyclometh: In regard to the situation in TFA, I don't see how the cops could have easily gotten out of it without using deadly force. The guy was clearly bent on it and once things get past a certain point, it's game on. This was pretty clearly a justifiable, if regrettable, use of force- based on what information we have right now.


Yeah. I mean, I'm just about the libbiest lib around, but I find it mind boggling that people are actually criticizing the cops in this situation. An unpredictable, probably delusional guy wielding a deadly weapon? Yeah, no
 
2014-08-19 10:23:54 PM  
Consider yourself lucky if you encounter a cop and you survive.  Cops will kill you at any provocation and get away with it.
 
2014-08-19 10:24:34 PM  

vodka: They didn't even need tasers in this case. Just back off and stop trying to project their authoritah like the trained monkeys that they are.


Yes, just leave the crazed man with a knife and a death wish alone. What's the worst that can happen?
 
2014-08-19 10:24:46 PM  

Gosling: Yogimus: http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/14/interview-with-jurors-at-your-m u rder-trial-after-they-convict-you/comment-page-1/

Just a knife.

Slightly graphic, but if you can take a knife (like a boss) you should be fine.

...that is not what I'd call 'slightly' graphic. That's the aftermath of a vigorous night of loving from Edward Scissorhands.


Most of those are fairly mild as far ad knife fight injuries go.
 
2014-08-19 10:25:09 PM  

Yogimus: Cyclometh: Yes, they are nearly as bad as a gun, because they're still a deadly weapon and should not be used unless it's really necessary because there's no good reason to risk someone's life just because a cop needs a midol.

I would like to see nothing more than tasers be stripped from law enforcement use.

They are not anywhere NEAR as bad as a gun. Your statement is avant garde level of disassociated with reality.  See, the reason I take issue with your statement, is because I am on YOUR side in this debate, and quite frankly, you're not helping with that nonsense.


Yea, good difference between Guns and Tasers. Guns are lethal force, Tasers are less lethal. Less lethal should be used as a substitute for lethal though, not a compliance device.
 
2014-08-19 10:26:18 PM  

Cyclometh: Yogimus: FloridaFarkTag: Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun

This is a lie.

Tasers can and do kill. Just because their risk of lethality is lower does not make them non-lethal in every case.


Tasers are classified as intermediate weapons, I think. Which is to say, below deadly weapons, but still above bare hands. Another problem is that in a lot of places you need separate certification to even be able to carry a taser, which it's possible that not every officer has.
 
2014-08-19 10:26:20 PM  

steamingpile:Also was the whole cop had a broken eye socket bullshiat or are people ignoring that point?



All I can find about it is links to the first story on this Google search. No "mainstream" stories.
 
2014-08-19 10:26:27 PM  

AeAe: Consider yourself lucky if you encounter a cop and you survive.  Cops will kill you at any provocation and get away with it.


I'm okay with this.jpeg
 
2014-08-19 10:26:38 PM  

AeAe: Consider yourself lucky if you encounter a cop and you survive.  Cops will kill you at any provocation and get away with it.


Well, any provocation like wielding a knife and saying shoot me, just shoot me.
 
2014-08-19 10:26:39 PM  

moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?

Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.

great speech but only one problem. Police in the rest of the country are trained on matching appropriate force with force with most never having to fire a weapon one time on duty in their careers. You have nightsticks, pepper spray, mace, flash grenades, rubber bullets, bean bags, LRAD, extensive hand to hand training to disarm a knife, or wait for it...talking down the situation using all four years of the criminal justice degree you earned. The rest of the police across the country somehow are able to do this and excel at their job protecting the country.

Hahahahaha you think this is an isolated incident? This is just the newest one you heard about. I'm sorry I couldn't get you to be a better advocate. I could really give a shiat that cops wear guns and occasionally use them.

No these occurrences happen all day but yet not all of them result in police shooting them. Me ...


And do you think the police kill every single one of them that asked? Or if the fact that a lot of police also have a military background that would also help them in a situation like this with training on identifying mental illness. Mental illness is nothing new to them. There are justified kills in law enforcement when they are in danger or have exhausted every other option.
 
ecl
2014-08-19 10:26:41 PM  

Cyclometh: Marches on the KARG livestream now.


March going where? Frontenac?
 
2014-08-19 10:27:29 PM  

Caffienatedjedi: Yogimus: Cyclometh: Yes, they are nearly as bad as a gun, because they're still a deadly weapon and should not be used unless it's really necessary because there's no good reason to risk someone's life just because a cop needs a midol.

I would like to see nothing more than tasers be stripped from law enforcement use.

They are not anywhere NEAR as bad as a gun. Your statement is avant garde level of disassociated with reality.  See, the reason I take issue with your statement, is because I am on YOUR side in this debate, and quite frankly, you're not helping with that nonsense.

Yea, good difference between Guns and Tasers. Guns are lethal force, Tasers are less lethal. Less lethal should be used as a substitute for lethal though, not a compliance device.


And here is the intelligent version of the argument. Tasers being used as compliance tools have left police forces without officers that can talk to folks. THAT is the danger they pose. They create shiatty cops, or more appropriately, allow shiatty cops to stay stagnant in their abilities.
 
2014-08-19 10:27:33 PM  
http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lsx/
funny that the only place in the country with an excessive heat warning today is St Louis
 
2014-08-19 10:27:56 PM  

J Noble Daggett: AeAe: Consider yourself lucky if you encounter a cop and you survive.  Cops will kill you at any provocation and get away with it.

Well, any provocation like wielding a knife and saying shoot me, just shoot me.


Well, obviously that, but others too.
 
2014-08-19 10:28:14 PM  
If you don't shoot him, he potentially kills the officers or bystanders.  That distance, you can't reliably holster your gun, go for the taser as the suspect approaches and if it doesn't have the effect, you may be dead or someone else may be dead.  A knife is a lethal weapon in nearly all circumstances.  Knives defeat the police bullet resistant vests, if you wait and see how the scene develops you may be dead or someone else may be dead. It is an officers responsibility to take that shot, not try and play hero which could get themselves killed, their partner killed, or a bystander killed.  If you believe the officer should have attempted to disarm them in hand to hand fighting, you have watched too many movies.  There are only losers in a knife fight, some lose more than others.

It was a suicide by cop, pure and simple.  The timing is horrible, but really there is never a good time to kill a suspect.  If the public cannot see this act as justified, chances are they are completely unreasonable and live in a fantasy world where all police officers must act like Chuck Norris  and simply roundhouse their way to a solution.
 
ecl
2014-08-19 10:28:30 PM  
IaMB stream for those too lazy to search...

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930
 
2014-08-19 10:28:42 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Cyclometh: In regard to the situation in TFA, I don't see how the cops could have easily gotten out of it without using deadly force. The guy was clearly bent on it and once things get past a certain point, it's game on. This was pretty clearly a justifiable, if regrettable, use of force- based on what information we have right now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm just about the libbiest lib around, but I find it mind boggling that people are actually criticizing the cops in this situation. An unpredictable, probably delusional guy wielding a deadly weapon? Yeah, no


This exactly. The police have a right to go home without a stab wound because some psycho pulled knife on them. In a situation like that, you shoot to protect yourself.
 
2014-08-19 10:29:42 PM  
Are any of the feeds from Ferguson up right now?
 
2014-08-19 10:29:45 PM  

Yogimus: They are not anywhere NEAR as bad as a gun. Your statement is avant garde level of disassociated with reality.  See, the reason I take issue with your statement, is because I am on YOUR side in this debate, and quite frankly, you're not helping with that nonsense.


Son, you're not on my side. You're over there with the guys I wear faceshields when I talk to because of the spittle flying. Calm yer tits.

And yes, again- they ARE as bad as a gun because their use constitutes deadly force, by definition. The consequence of their use  tends to be less severe than for a firearm, but they are  still lethal weapons and should not be used casually. Don't dismiss their dangers just because you have this idea that there's varying degrees of "deadly force". Escalation past a certain point is just about how much risk you're willing to take on and that judgement is made in instants.

I consider tasers to be a useful device in that they can help prevent what would otherwise be a death, but because they have this reputation (fomented by people like yourself) of being "not as bad as a gun", it becomes far easier to justify their use in situations not calling for deadly force.
 
2014-08-19 10:30:03 PM  

Jobber8742: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Cyclometh: In regard to the situation in TFA, I don't see how the cops could have easily gotten out of it without using deadly force. The guy was clearly bent on it and once things get past a certain point, it's game on. This was pretty clearly a justifiable, if regrettable, use of force- based on what information we have right now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm just about the libbiest lib around, but I find it mind boggling that people are actually criticizing the cops in this situation. An unpredictable, probably delusional guy wielding a deadly weapon? Yeah, no

This exactly. The police have a right to go home without a stab wound because some psycho pulled knife on them. In a situation like that, you shoot to protect yourself.


I am usually with the "fark the police" crowd but I don't see what they should have done differently here.
 
2014-08-19 10:30:09 PM  

Daedalus27: If you don't shoot him, he potentially kills the officers or bystanders.  That distance, you can't reliably holster your gun, go for the taser as the suspect approaches and if it doesn't have the effect, you may be dead or someone else may be dead.  A knife is a lethal weapon in nearly all circumstances.  Knives defeat the police bullet resistant vests, if you wait and see how the scene develops you may be dead or someone else may be dead. It is an officers responsibility to take that shot, not try and play hero which could get themselves killed, their partner killed, or a bystander killed.  If you believe the officer should have attempted to disarm them in hand to hand fighting, you have watched too many movies.  There are only losers in a knife fight, some lose more than others.

It was a suicide by cop, pure and simple.  The timing is horrible, but really there is never a good time to kill a suspect.  If the public cannot see this act as justified, chances are they are completely unreasonable and live in a fantasy world where all police officers must act like Chuck Norris  and simply roundhouse their way to a solution.


One officer could of gone for a taser while the other kept his service weapon trained on the guy, that is if either had a taser. But that is hindsight 20/20. I am sure they will regret not managing to take him alive, but their application of lethal force felt justifiable.
 
ecl
2014-08-19 10:30:23 PM  

redly1: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/lsx/
funny that the only place in the country with an excessive heat warning today is St Louis


Heat and Humidity are good friends of ours.  We've been BFF's for as long as I can remember honestly.
 
2014-08-19 10:31:46 PM  
Tasers are supposed to be a substitute for deadly force. Though I've been hearing not all cops have tasers, so its possible they didn't have that option.

Tasers AREN'T supposed to be a substitute for deadly force.  Good god the ignorance of the average poster hurts my brain.
 
2014-08-19 10:32:39 PM  
Good lord....here on Fark...

fc06.deviantart.net


If you think that

1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

2. Shoot him in the leg, the arm, talk to him, or do other things to a man who is coming at you with a knife, again, get a cat scan...you have something wrong with your brain.

3. use multiple officers to pile on him, or, as has been stated., sit in the squad car until he goes away, seriously, you have no idea of self protection, police work, or common sense. Get a mri.

4. shoot him with bean bag rounds, or any other non lethal weapon that is supposed to gain compliance. Sounds good, but running at cops with a knife is threatening them with a lethal weapon, and is met with lethal force. Maybe they should have asked him to slow down, so they could get some of those non lethal items out of the trunk? Because they had all day to deal with him you know, not just seconds.

if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.
 
2014-08-19 10:32:47 PM  

Jobber8742: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Cyclometh: In regard to the situation in TFA, I don't see how the cops could have easily gotten out of it without using deadly force. The guy was clearly bent on it and once things get past a certain point, it's game on. This was pretty clearly a justifiable, if regrettable, use of force- based on what information we have right now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm just about the libbiest lib around, but I find it mind boggling that people are actually criticizing the cops in this situation. An unpredictable, probably delusional guy wielding a deadly weapon? Yeah, no

This exactly. The police have a right to go home without a stab wound because some psycho pulled knife on them. In a situation like that, you shoot to protect yourself.


For some reason, idiot Farkers underestimate how nasty of a weapon a knife is.

Knives tend to cause extremely painful and slow deaths.

There is no way I would try to disarm a guy with a knife - if an attacker is within 20 feet or so I am shooting.
 
2014-08-19 10:33:35 PM  

Rotluchs: Tasers are supposed to be a substitute for deadly force. Though I've been hearing not all cops have tasers, so its possible they didn't have that option.

Tasers AREN'T supposed to be a substitute for deadly force.



This. Tasers were to reduce the number of times cops used big wooden sticks to subdue people.

  Good god the ignorance of the average poster hurts my brain.

And that.
 
2014-08-19 10:34:27 PM  

Caffienatedjedi: Cyclometh: RogermcAllen: So I don't have a good frame of reference yet tonight.  Where is KARG in relation to yesterday, and where are the police?

I've been following it, seems to be down at the moment. It was following a march earlier, with just a few police with regular uniforms and long batons walking around. Seemed pretty quiet.

Police sound on edge on the scanner though. Saying the crowd is growing and becoming more aggressive.


Odd.  I can't find any live streams or cable coverage.  Hopefully this just means it is so boring that there is no need to show anything.

Last night seemed to go pretty well, lets hope for another good one (good as in restrained crowd and police).
 
2014-08-19 10:34:29 PM  

ecl: IaMB stream for those too lazy to search...

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035483/events/3271930


Some other links...

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson

https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly
 
2014-08-19 10:34:53 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...

[fc06.deviantart.net image 600x682]


If you think that

1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

2. Shoot him in the leg, the arm, talk to him, or do other things to a man who is coming at you with a knife, again, get a cat scan...you have something wrong with your brain.

3. use multiple officers to pile on him, or, as has been stated., sit in the squad car until he goes away, seriously, you have no idea of self protection, police work, or common sense. Get a mri.

4. shoot him with bean bag rounds, or any other non lethal weapon that is supposed to gain compliance. Sounds good, but running at cops with a knife is threatening them with a lethal weapon, and is met with lethal force. Maybe they should have asked him to slow down, so they could get some of those non lethal items out of the trunk? Because they had all day to deal with him you know, not just seconds.

if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.


Yeah, I'm actually kind of flummoxed at the backseat drivers here. I'm as suspicious of cops as the next guy, but come on, real life isn't like an episode of Walker, Texas Ranger. Cops aren't going to be going all kung fu on someone; that is not how it works in the real world.
 
2014-08-19 10:35:41 PM  
KARG is back up. Undefined crowd scenes, lots of cops and seems calm at the moment wherever they are.
 
2014-08-19 10:36:03 PM  

Cyclometh: Yogimus: They are not anywhere NEAR as bad as a gun. Your statement is avant garde level of disassociated with reality.  See, the reason I take issue with your statement, is because I am on YOUR side in this debate, and quite frankly, you're not helping with that nonsense.

Son, you're not on my side. You're over there with the guys I wear faceshields when I talk to because of the spittle flying. Calm yer tits.

And yes, again- they ARE as bad as a gun because their use constitutes deadly force, by definition. The consequence of their use  tends to be less severe than for a firearm, but they are  still lethal weapons and should not be used casually. Don't dismiss their dangers just because you have this idea that there's varying degrees of "deadly force". Escalation past a certain point is just about how much risk you're willing to take on and that judgement is made in instants.

I consider tasers to be a useful device in that they can help prevent what would otherwise be a death, but because they have this reputation (fomented by people like yourself) of being "not as bad as a gun", it becomes far easier to justify their use in situations not calling for deadly force.


Insisting on stupidity doesn't make the point more intelligent.

A taser is not remotely comparable to a gun. But since you made the claim, please back it with whatever you may consider facts. Wait, let me do the work for you. 550 or so folks killed by tasers. As of 2001. (Technically complications due to tasing)

Tasers are used 28 times per day.

I am not calling you an idiot. Just saying facts tend to paint you like one. Because you have no farking grasp of what words mean.
 
2014-08-19 10:36:22 PM  

jasonvatch: I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.


You know what they say about knife fights? The winner is the one that dies in the ambulance.

You've got better odds of surviving a bullet wound than surviving a knife wound. It's not the responsibility of the police to put themselves in mortal danger to avoid killing psychopaths.
 
2014-08-19 10:37:12 PM  

Cyclometh: Yogimus: They are not anywhere NEAR as bad as a gun. Your statement is avant garde level of disassociated with reality.  See, the reason I take issue with your statement, is because I am on YOUR side in this debate, and quite frankly, you're not helping with that nonsense.

Son, you're not on my side. You're over there with the guys I wear faceshields when I talk to because of the spittle flying. Calm yer tits.

And yes, again- they ARE as bad as a gun because their use constitutes deadly force, by definition. The consequence of their use  tends to be less severe than for a firearm, but they are  still lethal weapons and should not be used casually. Don't dismiss their dangers just because you have this idea that there's varying degrees of "deadly force". Escalation past a certain point is just about how much risk you're willing to take on and that judgement is made in instants.

I consider tasers to be a useful device in that they can help prevent what would otherwise be a death, but because they have this reputation (fomented by people like yourself) of being "not as bad as a gun", it becomes far easier to justify their use in situations not calling for deadly force.


I think everyone agrees here, that application of a taser is applying lethal force, albeit less lethal. And again, I think we agree they should not be used as a compliance device. But a gun is more lethal than a taser. That means it is guaranteed deadly force, and whoever is on the victim side of that is not going to be walking anywhere soon. I would indeed argue to their being levels of deadly force. You have less lethal, and lethal. When it can be helped, lethal should never be used, but less lethal should only be used in situations that would warrrant lethal if less lethal were not availible.

So to consider them on par as dangers is a bit of hyperbole that undermines the entire argument. There should be no justification using a taser in a situation where lethal force would not be used. But when people compare tasing to being shot, I'm sure most would rather be tased.
 
2014-08-19 10:37:49 PM  

Yogimus: Because you have no farking grasp of what words mean.


I find this statement to be highly entertaining.
 
2014-08-19 10:39:05 PM  

Yogimus: FloridaFarkTag: Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun

This is a lie.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-tased-by-p ol ice-while-resisting-arrest-dies-20140521-story.html

Uh oh!

/Used Chicago for effect
 
2014-08-19 10:40:03 PM  

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


lassos
the answer is more rodeo time and mandatory calf roping classes for all LEOs

sure, it isn't dignified but everyone gets to live and, afterwards? clowns!
 
2014-08-19 10:40:17 PM  

Rotluchs: Tasers are supposed to be a substitute for deadly force. Though I've been hearing not all cops have tasers, so its possible they didn't have that option.

Tasers AREN'T supposed to be a substitute for deadly force.  Good god the ignorance of the average poster hurts my brain.


/Agree, tasers are an intermediate weapon NOT LIKELY TO CAUSE DEATH OR MAJOR DAMAGE. And if someone is coming at you with a knife, you have the right (plus common sense) to use a gun to stop them.  The derpers are thick tonight on fark.
 
2014-08-19 10:41:24 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Rotluchs: Tasers are supposed to be a substitute for deadly force. Though I've been hearing not all cops have tasers, so its possible they didn't have that option.

Tasers AREN'T supposed to be a substitute for deadly force.  Good god the ignorance of the average poster hurts my brain.

/Agree, tasers are an intermediate weapon NOT LIKELY TO CAUSE DEATH OR MAJOR DAMAGE. And if someone is coming at you with a knife, you have the right (plus common sense) to use a gun to stop them.  The derpers are thick tonight on fark.


Honestly, I think the naysayers are those who have never seen a knife fight or the aftermath.
 
2014-08-19 10:41:26 PM  

Caffienatedjedi: There should be no justification using a taser in a situation where lethal force would not be used.


The entire point of a taser is to use it when deadly force is not justified. They were not designed to replace guns, they were designed to replace nightsticks. They are called a "less lethal device" because they are supposed to be used in non-lethal situations, but they sometimes kill.
 
2014-08-19 10:42:23 PM  

kaduh: Yogimus: FloridaFarkTag: Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun

This is a lie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-tased-by-p ol ice-while-resisting-arrest-dies-20140521-story.html

Uh oh!

/Used Chicago for effect


http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/14/interview-with-jurors-at-your- mu rder-trial-after-they-convict-you/comment-page-1/

I can link irrelevant data points, too.
 
2014-08-19 10:42:40 PM  

Cyclometh: Yogimus: Because you have no farking grasp of what words mean.

I find this statement to be highly entertaining.


He don't know you very well, do he? - bugs bunny
 
2014-08-19 10:43:49 PM  

*TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET111111!!!!!!*


End of second Quarter.
Armchair Quarterbacks will retreat to the kitchen for more Mountain Dew and Cheetos..


Half-time show will be a bunch of pre-menopausal, yet hefty mothers  doing Yoga, because they are our new sponsors.

And the hindsight bowl will resume in 5 minutes.
 
2014-08-19 10:43:49 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly


I hold a belt in Krav Maga, and Krav is not a magic talisman that makes you automatically win fights. Disarms are flashy, Hollywood moves, and risky. You don't willingly go into a knife fight, especially when your tools give you and advantage.

The first defense they teach in Krav is the Nike defense. They do that for a reason.
 
2014-08-19 10:44:22 PM  

SilentStrider: This sounds justified, at least from the facts already out.

The only thing out is what the cops said, so I'm not sure what "facts" you may be referring to.
 
2014-08-19 10:44:26 PM  
Because of this thread, I now know a man with a knife is more dangerous than a man with a gun and that a knife wound is more deadly than a gunshot wound.
This, of course, is the reason we equip our soldiers with se
 
2014-08-19 10:44:39 PM  
Where's this guy when you actually need him?
crooksandliars.com
 
2014-08-19 10:45:11 PM  

jst3p: Caffienatedjedi: There should be no justification using a taser in a situation where lethal force would not be used.

The entire point of a taser is to use it when deadly force is not justified. They were not designed to replace guns, they were designed to replace nightsticks. They are called a "less lethal device" because they are supposed to be used in non-lethal situations, but they sometimes kill.


http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/child-page/164097/do c/ slspublic/tasers.pdf

(from the  Recommendations section of that link, certain points bolded by me):

RECOMMENDATIONS

1. The Use of Tasers by Police Officers should be limited to circumstances under
which the use of lethal force would also be permitted.

First, here is a snapshot of the established law on the authorized use of force by
police: Police can always use reasonable, non-deadly force to thwart any crime or to 
seize anyone the police officer reasonably believes to be fleeing from the commission of
a crime or attempting to evade a lawful arrest. As for deadly or "lethal" force - usually 
defined to mean force intended to or likely to cause either death or grievous bodily harm
- police can use this to prevent completion or commission of a felony only if the felony
is one that normally poses serious physical danger to victims or bystanders
(robbery,
rape) but not for other, non-violent felonies. In addition, under the Supreme Court rules
established in Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985), police may only use deadly force
to apprehend or to ensure the arrest of someone fleeing from the commission of a felony
if the office reasonably believes that the fleeing person at the time of flight poses a threat
of death or serious bodily injury to others.
 
2014-08-19 10:45:26 PM  

kaduh: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-tased-by-p ol ice-while-resisting-arrest-dies-20140521-story.html

Uh oh!

/Used Chicago for effect


So you're saying that a tazer is as lethal as a gun? You're missing the point.

Tazers have been known to result in death, but so have nightsticks, choke holds, or any other compliance technique you want to argue about. However, a tazer will usually result in little to no permanent injury (the biggest risk is someone hurting themselves when they fall), as opposed to something like a nightstick, which guarantees tissue damage and usually broken/fractured bones. The tazer also works at a much longer range than things like nightsticks.

Guns, on the other hand, are usually guaranteed to result in death, but work much more reliably, effectively, and at a farther range.

They're two completely different tools for two completely different scenarios.
 
2014-08-19 10:46:02 PM  

TeamEd: Because of this thread, I now know a man with a knife is more dangerous than a man with a gun and that a knife wound is more deadly than a gunshot wound.
This, of course, is the reason we equip our soldiers with se


A man with a gun is more dangerous.

Does not make the man with a knife less dangerous.
 
2014-08-19 10:46:06 PM  

TeamEd: Because of this thread, I now know a man with a knife is more dangerous than a man with a gun and that a knife wound is more deadly than a gunshot wound.
This, of course, is the reason we equip our soldiers with se


Erm... This, of course is the reason we equip our soldiers with swords.
/ Snark fail
 
2014-08-19 10:46:16 PM  

Caffienatedjedi: Daedalus27: If you don't shoot him, he potentially kills the officers or bystanders.  That distance, you can't reliably holster your gun, go for the taser as the suspect approaches and if it doesn't have the effect, you may be dead or someone else may be dead.  A knife is a lethal weapon in nearly all circumstances.  Knives defeat the police bullet resistant vests, if you wait and see how the scene develops you may be dead or someone else may be dead. It is an officers responsibility to take that shot, not try and play hero which could get themselves killed, their partner killed, or a bystander killed.  If you believe the officer should have attempted to disarm them in hand to hand fighting, you have watched too many movies.  There are only losers in a knife fight, some lose more than others.

It was a suicide by cop, pure and simple.  The timing is horrible, but really there is never a good time to kill a suspect.  If the public cannot see this act as justified, chances are they are completely unreasonable and live in a fantasy world where all police officers must act like Chuck Norris  and simply roundhouse their way to a solution.

One officer could of gone for a taser while the other kept his service weapon trained on the guy, that is if either had a taser. But that is hindsight 20/20. I am sure they will regret not managing to take him alive, but their application of lethal force felt justifiable.


Potentially if they went into that situation that way it may have worked, but it is riskier as you only have one officer with the weapon that can definitively stop the situation.  You want as many chances as possible to neutralize the threat given accuracy can be an issue in that situation.  If the shooting occurred within 3-4 feet, it seems like they waited until well after the last possible minute to fire as that put their own lives in jeopardy trying to do everything they could to get this guy to surrender.  He could have lunged inside one second at that range and killed an officer if he hadn't be shot at that moment. It is not the officers fault that they shot him, the knife wielding suspect gave the officer no other choice.

I think many of you lack a little knowledge about tasers and some limitations. Police usually carry a taser gun that shoots two prongs out up to 25-30ft or so. How they operate is two prongs go into a subject and the current is run from one prong, through the target, to the other prong and back to the gun to compete the circuit.   What this means is if the subject targeted is wearing heavy clothes the circuit may not be completed through the skin and it may have minimal to no effect.  Further if one of the prongs fails to hit the subject, the circuit won't be completed and therefore nothing will happen. Even if the circuit is completed (usually if it is also mitigated by the clothing or otherwise poor connection to the body), rarely, usually due to drugs, there may be minimal effect on the subject. If any of these things happen on the subject you are targeting, the officer has to quickly drop the taser and unholster you gun which takes time in which the subject is free to approach and engage you.  Yes, the taser is a wonderful alternative to a firearm, but it is not 100% guaranteed to stop anyone and it's limitations can put you or community at risk.  Tasers are a tool that officers can use, but they are situational based on range, behavior, and other factors.
 
2014-08-19 10:46:22 PM  

CthulhuCalling: The first defense they teach in Krav is the Nike defense. They do that for a reason.


So you can telegraph your best defense?

Mel, the cook on Alice, would not approve.
 
2014-08-19 10:46:43 PM  
Topics like these are morbidly intriguing.  I say morbidly, because of the real hits to my faith in humanity that they deliver, courtesy of people I would think should know better.

I remember last year's Dorner manhunt topics, and how many people were happily cheering an ex-cop on for "taking the fight to the LAPD," so to speak.

OK, I get that, given their reputation and actions, which don't paint them in the best of lights - seen in great detail when two idiot officers opened up on a pair of newspaper delivery women.  Fine.

Here's where some of you guys sicken me.  His first two victims were a 28-year-old Cal State coach and her fiancée.  Her only relation to things was that she was the daughter of the man who apparently represented him in a futile effort to save his job.  The fiancée...had no relation, outside of his relationship with her.

Even though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to do so, I'll grant the other two deaths, because they were cops, and supposedly what he was raging against.  Monica Quan wasn't a cop.

People here and elsewhere cheered her death and the death of her fiancée, and when they were called out on it, made comments that suggested "Well, she shouldn't have been related to the guy he was really angry at."

What.

The.

Actual.

Fark.

You mean to tell me that I should be rooting for a sad-sack waste of cells that couldn't even have had the decency to go after the person he was pissed at, and went after his daughter instead?

That is why I refuse to even entertain the notion of "fark the police".  Because not only are the police more than the asshole cops who need to have their bullshiat called out, but more often than not, the people who are most willing to "fark the police" can't seem to differentiate between actual police and those that they claim to represent when they do so.
 
2014-08-19 10:46:47 PM  

Fubini: They're two completely different tools for two completely different scenarios.


And neither should be used unless deadly force is necessary.
 
2014-08-19 10:47:06 PM  

Yogimus: TeamEd: Because of this thread, I now know a man with a knife is more dangerous than a man with a gun and that a knife wound is more deadly than a gunshot wound.
This, of course, is the reason we equip our soldiers with se

A man with a gun is more dangerous.

Does not make the man with a knife less dangerous.


Of course it does. *You just said it does.*
 
2014-08-19 10:47:10 PM  

jankyboy: Dog Man: If you have a knife within 21 feet of me, you're close enough to kill me because, generally, you can rush me before I can draw and fire accurately. Knife wounds are bad, they can easily server tendons and cause permanent damage and quickly lead to shock. If you're within 21 ft, you're likely to get shot if you don't drop the knife. We don't aim at limbs, we aim at center mass; a nice big target. Even a shot to the arm or leg can bleed you out. Sometimes tasers don't work and OC spray can be resisted or have no effect. Sometimes you have no choice but to shoot.

Yep -- I think it was an officer with the SLC police dept who concluded that an attacker could cover that 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Not much time to react and defend your self.



When we went through training for correctional officers, we watched this:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3439314/

granted I can see why they would want us to be able to defend ourselves in a prison setting since the go to weapon of choice in a prison is whatever you can grab that is sharp and pointy, but if you watch the movie it is clearly aimed at police officers.
/although several women in our training class couldn't watch the entire movie, although, appearing campy, it was pretty graphic.
 
2014-08-19 10:47:40 PM  
Threads like these reinforce the fact that America is raising an entire generation of children that view movies and TV as "science" and "reality".

Why didn't the cops just use ninja skills and disarm the person???

lol...for srs guyz...lol
 
2014-08-19 10:47:44 PM  
CthulhuCalling:

The first defense they teach in Krav is the Nike defense. They do that for a reason.

Did they steal that from French Martial arts?
 
2014-08-19 10:48:19 PM  
The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""


Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.
 
2014-08-19 10:48:36 PM  
tasers should in general the same restriction and paperwork as pulling a gun. For all I know, they do. The real difference between the two is how armed (and, perhaps, drugged) your opponent is.

It's like rock paper scissors. Taser+Pepper Spray beats knife, large blunt object beats taser, gun beats all, if you're ready to execute a mentally disturbed person.

Really. this guy that got shot is a total asshole - lets be clear - i mean, atomic levels of criminal douche, and i'm also sure those officers are rattled by it. Guy put people in a position to take life. Bastard. But by killing a mental patient instead of going the extra mile, they failed to serve in the motto of their force. It's tough to reconcile i admit.

So i'm not incriminating the police, i'm just shaking my head, wondering if the real issue is that if we had real time crime stats we could tell how rare this is, but the Cloak of Secrecy the PDs maintain means we generally presume the worst.

Again, where are the cameras? Taser/Wood/Live rounds would all make a lot of sense from a 1st person POV. it's unimaginable, now, that cops aren't showing the darn things on their own cable channel. They are proud to serve, im sure, although none want to become public figures for their efforts any more than normal people do. That's another conversation.
 
2014-08-19 10:48:41 PM  
Beyond the sad reality that it was a successful suicide-by-cop, it does look like it was/is being handled in a far more intelligent and sensitive manner. Unfortunately, it probably won't matter to the violent fringe.
 
2014-08-19 10:50:02 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.


I laugh a lot at fark threads. It scares me that there are actually people that have these opinions, but I still laugh.
 
2014-08-19 10:50:11 PM  

Yogimus: kaduh: Yogimus: FloridaFarkTag: Folks also have died being tased, so the liability with tasers is nearly as bad as a gun

This is a lie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-tased-by-p ol ice-while-resisting-arrest-dies-20140521-story.html

Uh oh!

/Used Chicago for effect

http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2010/09/14/interview-with-jurors-at-your- mu rder-trial-after-they-convict-you/comment-page-1/

I can link irrelevant data points, too.


Ouch, you win.  Good night.
 
2014-08-19 10:50:25 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Why Police have non-lethal crowd control options: Exhibit A.
 
2014-08-19 10:50:33 PM  
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2014/01/band/

Gunshots and knife wounds hover around 75% survival rate with medical attention.

To clarify, the only way a man with a gun makes a man with a knife less dangerous is by shooting the man with a knife. When a superior weapon is introduced, it doesn't make the inferior weapon harmless or less dangerous. The inherent lethality of the inferior weapon does not change.
 
2014-08-19 10:51:46 PM  
Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...

You invoke a fictional character in a non-fictional situation then proceed to tell others how their beliefs are wrong. That's rich.
 
2014-08-19 10:52:27 PM  

rugman11: The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""


Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.


sounds like the grand jury might get to go home early if this is credible
 
2014-08-19 10:52:41 PM  

nyseattitude: Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...

You invoke a fictional character in a non-fictional situation then proceed to tell others how their beliefs are wrong. That's rich.


If we can work Jezebel and cycling into this, we might really have something.
 
2014-08-19 10:52:44 PM  

PanicMan: Litterbox: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?

On Cops I saw them take down a guy with a samurai sword with an aluminum ladder.  They used it to pin him against the wall and then walk up and take his shiat.

Not saying that would work here, but sometimes you don't need to shoot people, even when they're armed.


You never bring a ninja sword to a ladder fight.
 
2014-08-19 10:52:54 PM  

jst3p: Caffienatedjedi: There should be no justification using a taser in a situation where lethal force would not be used.

The entire point of a taser is to use it when deadly force is not justified. They were not designed to replace guns, they were designed to replace nightsticks. They are called a "less lethal device" because they are supposed to be used in non-lethal situations, but they sometimes kill.


I may be coming from a point where preventing bodily injure justifies lethal force. and my view is that even a night stick is less lethal due to people dying to it. Verbal compliance or physical subduement are the only ones I think of being 100% non-lethal, as when used as they are supposed to should not result in death. Tasers and nightsticks can result in death even when correctly used.

So any force escalation charts, I'm okay with where intermediate weapons are used. Less lethal is justified there, and if they did not have those tools may have to threaten use of lethal. I do have an issue with less lethal being used for compliance though. Physical subduement should be adequate if they have not shown aggression.
 
2014-08-19 10:53:32 PM  

Cyclometh: jst3p: Caffienatedjedi: There should be no justification using a taser in a situation where lethal force would not be used.

The entire point of a taser is to use it when deadly force is not justified. They were not designed to replace guns, they were designed to replace nightsticks. They are called a "less lethal device" because they are supposed to be used in non-lethal situations, but they sometimes kill.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/child-page/164097/do c/ slspublic/tasers.pdf

(from the  Recommendations section of that link, certain points bolded by me):

RECOMMENDATIONS

1. The Use of Tasers by Police Officers should be limited to circumstances under
which the use of lethal force would also be permitted.
First, here is a snapshot of the established law on the authorized use of force by
police: Police can always use reasonable, non-deadly force to thwart any crime or to
seize anyone the police officer reasonably believes to be fleeing from the commission of
a crime or attempting to evade a lawful arrest. As for deadly or "lethal" force - usually
defined to mean force intended to or likely to cause either death or grievous bodily harm
- police can use this to prevent completion or commission of a felony only if the felony
is one that normally poses serious physical danger to victims or bystanders (robbery,
rape) but not for other, non-violent felonies. In addition, under the Supreme Court rules
established in Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985), police may only use deadly force
to apprehend or to ensure the arrest of someone fleeing from the commission of a felony
if the office reasonably believes that the fleeing person at the time of flight poses a threat
of death or serious bodily injury to others.


That's nice.

Here is actual policy recommendations:

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=dis pl ay_arch&article_id=2204&issue_id=92010

Table 1: Use-of-Force Continuum
Suspect resistance                                 Officer use of force

1. No resistance                                           1. Officer presence
2. Verbal noncompliance                              2. Verbal commands
3. Passive resistance                                   3. Hands-on tactics, chemical spray
4. Active resistance                                      4. Intermediate weapons: baton, Taser, strikes, nondeadly force
5. Aggressive resistance                              5. Intermediate weapons, intensified techniques, nondeadly force
6. Deadly-force resistance                           6. Deadly force


Notice Taser shows up well before "deadly force" and the only response to deadly force is deadly force.
 
2014-08-19 10:53:34 PM  

steamingpile: Also was the whole cop had a broken eye socket bullshiat or are people ignoring that point?


Well seeing as it comes from the same people who cropped a video of the kid buying something and then arguing, for character assisnation purposes most people think it's bullshiat.
/Why did it take a week before they mentioned that?
//Willing to bet that even if he does have one it's less than a week old.
 
2014-08-19 10:54:10 PM  

AngryDragon: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

WTF?  The guy charge a cop armed with a knife.  Is there any question that lethal force was justified?  Are you people really so disconnected from reality?


Some individuals on Fark have seriously argued that being pinned down to the ground and struck in the face repeatedly is not a legitimate justification for the use of deadly force, as the attacker's unarmed status obligates the victim to respond with no more than an unarmed defense.
 
2014-08-19 10:54:18 PM  

Lordserb: Bit'O'Gristle: if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.

I laugh a lot at fark threads. It scares me that there are actually people that have these opinions, but I still laugh.


Same, but some things I'm finding myself increasingly unable to even snicker at.  See my Boobies in this topic.
 
2014-08-19 10:54:34 PM  

parasol: rugman11: The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""


Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.

sounds like the grand jury might get to go home early if this is credible


Wait for the forensics.
 
2014-08-19 10:54:51 PM  

parasol: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

lassos
the answer is more rodeo time and mandatory calf roping classes for all LEOs

sure, it isn't dignified but everyone gets to live and, afterwards? clowns!


Yeeeaaaah....a cop stringing a rope around a black person is not going to upset anyone. Nope...
 
2014-08-19 10:55:56 PM  

nyseattitude: You invoke a fictional character in a non-fictional situation then proceed to tell others how their beliefs are wrong. That's rich.


It's called social interaction with concepts and ideas...

/i'm out
 
2014-08-19 10:55:58 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Boo_Guy: jasonvatch:

They are doing this so very wrong, and only digging the hole deeper with every action they take.


As opposed to the Obama-voters who swagger around and steal with impunity? Correct?
 
2014-08-19 10:56:19 PM  

Cyclometh: http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/child-page/164097/do c/ slspublic/tasers.pdf


The crux of that report is that a law enforcement agency subjects itself to potential liability by using tasers, not that they're bad tools. At the heart of their analysis is simply the fact that tasers haven't been used for very long, so there is no proven track record of case law that shows police departments that it's safe to do so.

Like others have said, other methods of gaining compliance are comparatively more violent and much riskier for both the subject and the officer, and your report fails to address that second issue at all. If an officer breaks his leg or gets stabbed in a physical altercation with someone, that police department is going to be making unemployment and disability payments that easily meet or exceed the excessive use of force settlements cited in the report.
 
2014-08-19 10:57:00 PM  

Big Ramifications: The My Little Pony Killer: Boo_Guy: jasonvatch:

They are doing this so very wrong, and only digging the hole deeper with every action they take.

As opposed to the Obama-voters who swagger around and steal with impunity? Correct?


...is Obama Voters the new euphemism for Black?
 
2014-08-19 10:57:14 PM  
I had a PR- 24 when i was a cop, and i have to tell you, you swing it by the upright handle like a baseball bat. The force you can get from this swing, will crush bones, skulls, shatter elbows, knees, it would be VERY easy to kill someone with one. That is why the course to carry one is so intensive. it is NOT like a regular nightstick. I would much rather tase someone than smack them with my PR-24. First of all...they would be WAY too close for comfort if they were within nightstick range. Second of all, the odds are i might miss one of the green or yellow zones "zones you can hit without causing possible death" by a bad swing, or the suspect moving as they won't just stand there and let you smack them in the knee or arm. The chances of accidentally hitting a suspect in the head are great as he jinks around, and that, would possibly kill him. The taser is a non lethal (yes there have been deaths, but many many more successes) means to gain compliance, but it is in no way, none, meant to take the place of lethal force when lethal force is called for. If you think for one second that any cop anywhere would choose to use a taser on a guy who is charging at him with a knife, you are totally misguided and incorrect. Suspect using a lethal weapon? I'm going for my gun. He is the asshole that left me no choice. I'm going home in one piece.
 
2014-08-19 10:57:31 PM  
i306.photobucket.com
 
2014-08-19 10:57:36 PM  

mekki: parasol: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

lassos
the answer is more rodeo time and mandatory calf roping classes for all LEOs

sure, it isn't dignified but everyone gets to live and, afterwards? clowns!

Yeeeaaaah....a cop stringing a rope around a black person is not going to upset anyone. Nope...


oh - that didn't even occur to me - must be more tired that i thought
ah well
 
2014-08-19 10:58:31 PM  

Yogimus: Big Ramifications: The My Little Pony Killer: Boo_Guy: jasonvatch:

They are doing this so very wrong, and only digging the hole deeper with every action they take.

As opposed to the Obama-voters who swagger around and steal with impunity? Correct?

...is Obama Voters the new euphemism for Black?


I voted for him twice and I still have this white guy penis. I was robbed!
 
2014-08-19 10:59:19 PM  

Yogimus: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2014/01/band/

Gunshots and knife wounds hover around 75% survival rate with medical attention.

To clarify, the only way a man with a gun makes a man with a knife less dangerous is by shooting the man with a knife. When a superior weapon is introduced, it doesn't make the inferior weapon harmless or less dangerous. The inherent lethality of the inferior weapon does not change.


If you need an example of how lethal knives can be, look at what the Uighur terrorists/freedom fighters are doing in China with large scale knife attacks.  The scary part about knife attacks in crowded areas is you don't have the gunshots to give warning, merely screaming of people already being stabbed or those running for the lives without a clear idea of what is happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/almost-100-killed-during-a tt acks-in-chinas-xinjiang-last-week/article19900534/
 
2014-08-19 10:59:38 PM  

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


The reason cops have Tasers and pepper spray is partially due to the fact that, in the 60's and early 70's, people became disgusted and alarmed at the visible bruising created when cops used batons to effect a takedown of a combative suspect. That, and the fact that the PR-24 sidehandle baton was insanely lethal, even (or especially) in the hands of a trained user. So cops were gradually switched over to the "less-lethal" Mace, pepper spray and Taser, which are not particularly "less" lethal, but leave pleasingly fewer visible marks on a suspect. Nobody saw a suspect on his knees gagging from a liberal dose of pepper spray, and once in holding he cleaned right up; and in the early days, Tasers were finicky and had a limited range and were easily blocked by heavy clothing (and both prongs had to make contact for the current to be effective) and were only used in lieu of pulling a gun and blowing the suspect away.

Nowadays, of course, people have video cameras on their cell phones, so we can see people retching in agony from having pepper spray schpritzed down the gullet, or dying from multiple shocks from the much improved Tasers we have today; plus, both are being used not for last-resort-before-shooting methods of takedown as they were intended, but for first-level compliance ("Get out of the car or I'll Tase you").

In a better world, where the general public didn't believe that criminals deserve what they get up to and including a bullet in the back merely for property damage (and if you don't believe that, peruse some past threads right here on Fark), and where the public didn't screech about higher taxes for training police, AND about actually applying stringent hiring requirements to police same as everyone else AND about holding those actually responsible for policing the cops for wrongdoing (the District Attorney's office, not the cops, just so you know)...in that world, police would be properly trained in crisis management, verbal methods of personal and crowd control, and other ways of managing a situation besides TASER TASER TASER.

Too bad we don't live in that world, but there you go. It's completely doable, but neither the right nor the left wants to do it.
 
2014-08-19 11:00:24 PM  

jst3p: Table 1: Use-of-Force Continuum
Suspect resistance Officer use of force
1. No resistance 1. Officer presence
2. Verbal noncompliance 2. Verbal commands
3. Passive resistance 3. Hands-on tactics, chemical spray
4. Active resistance 4. Intermediate weapons: baton, Taser, strikes, nondeadly force
5. Aggressive resistance 5. Intermediate weapons, intensified techniques, nondeadly force
6. Deadly-force resistance 6. Deadly force


That is what the cops say.  If I remember correctly when tasers first gained widespread use it was pitched to the public as a tool to only be used only where you would otherwise have to kill with a gun such as someone on PCP or an aggressive suspect with a knife.  Now it seems like an easy button they like to pull out willy nilly.
 
2014-08-19 11:00:44 PM  

Caffienatedjedi: CthulhuCalling:

The first defense they teach in Krav is the Nike defense. They do that for a reason.

Did they steal that from French Martial arts?


Difference between retreat and surviving the encounter, and surrender as you are implying.
 
2014-08-19 11:01:00 PM  

Fubini: Cyclometh: http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/child-page/164097/do c/ slspublic/tasers.pdf

The crux of that report is that a law enforcement agency subjects itself to potential liability by using tasers, not that they're bad tools. At the heart of their analysis is simply the fact that tasers haven't been used for very long, so there is no proven track record of case law that shows police departments that it's safe to do so.

Like others have said, other methods of gaining compliance are comparatively more violent and much riskier for both the subject and the officer, and your report fails to address that second issue at all. If an officer breaks his leg or gets stabbed in a physical altercation with someone, that police department is going to be making unemployment and disability payments that easily meet or exceed the excessive use of force settlements cited in the report.


Here is the number one benefit of tasers:

They don't look violent on film.

Here is the real benefit of tasers:

When used successfully, the conflict is immediately over. A baton, gas, a FLASHLIGHT (What farking idiot said this? I mean really? I can't be bothered to look, but if this was you, you are a farking moron and should feel bad) when used on a suspect DO NOT guarantee compliance, and the situation can escalate to lethal force in a rapid manner. A Taser stops the escalation. Right or wrong, (and I am against them, mind you) a taser is an "I SAID SO" switch.

It i also a courtesy. A tool that CAN be used, not one that must be used instead of lethal force.
 
2014-08-19 11:01:30 PM  
Take a breath here.
Does it really take a degree in psychology to not escalate any situation?
Say, bro? Can you steip back on the curb? If I had be an OUI, I may have hit you.
Just  park it in the shade of the moonlight, a'right?

Hey, bro? You got a light?

But, NOOOooooooooooooo.
You gotta go Barky Fife of 'roids and try to drag the kid in the car like the free candy van is enacting involuntary conscription.

You deal the cards.
You bought the ticket.
 
2014-08-19 11:02:38 PM  

CthulhuCalling: Caffienatedjedi: CthulhuCalling:

The first defense they teach in Krav is the Nike defense. They do that for a reason.

Did they steal that from French Martial arts?

Difference between retreat and surviving the encounter, and surrender as you are implying.


I keed. Krav looks cool as hell. I just have that image of a guy sprinting on a track and titles French Martial Arts stuck in my head.

Besides, violence should always be a last resort. Should always try to de-escalate, then remove yourself from the situation, and if neither of those works then you go violent and if safe after they have.
 
2014-08-19 11:03:23 PM  

rugman11: The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."


Well, that makes four eyewitnesses who saw the killer cop shooting at the unarmed victims back

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""


And yet another witness who saw him shoot the unarmed man with his hands up in a pose of surrender

Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.
 
2014-08-19 11:03:56 PM  

vudukungfu: Take a breath here.
Does it really take a degree in psychology to not escalate any situation?
Say, bro? Can you steip back on the curb? If I had be an OUI, I may have hit you.
Just  park it in the shade of the moonlight, a'right?

Hey, bro? You got a light?

But, NOOOooooooooooooo.
You gotta go Barky Fife of 'roids and try to drag the kid in the car like the free candy van is enacting involuntary conscription.

You deal the cards.
You bought the ticket.


technically the guy with the knife decided he wanted to have an exciting day, not the cops.
 
2014-08-19 11:04:35 PM  

Yogimus: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2014/01/band/

Gunshots and knife wounds hover around 75% survival rate with medical attention.

To clarify, the only way a man with a gun makes a man with a knife less dangerous is by shooting the man with a knife. When a superior weapon is introduced, it doesn't make the inferior weapon harmless or less dangerous. The inherent lethality of the inferior weapon does not change.


I do not know enough to be able to guess if this incident was preventable.
However, a police encounter with a man with a knife -- however deranged -- does not necessarily need to end in violence or even non-lethal incapacitation.
De-escalation should always be the primary method of conflict resolution for police. Just because a man is holding a knife and acting erratically, doesn't mean he is planning to act violently. Police in many jurisdictions are trained to talk out those situations as a first resort. Lucky cops have training in how to deal with mental illness etc. Perhaps de-escalation wasn't possible here, maybe the cops didn't have that kind of training, maybe they did and they couldn't get through to the guy, who knows.
But, my lay impression is that cops are becoming less and less hesitant to resort to using deadly force in encounters that would have ended very differently 20 years ago.
/ If I have a choice between taking a knife wound and a bullet wound, I'd go for a knife wound every time.
 
2014-08-19 11:05:30 PM  

Bugerz: Can we just take the local cops' guns away and give them tasers till this shiat is over? Even if the guy had a knife and was being threatening, shooting people at this point is only making it worse.


that would be really stoopid no? I mean some of the protesters are actually armed with REAL guns and they are not exactly the MLK or Gandhi type.
 
2014-08-19 11:05:46 PM  
I have extensive experience in computer simulations of these events. I know for a fact that a person's perception of time slows dramatically when they draw and aim a firearm; therefore, I demand to know why the police could not have used that moment of temporarily accelerated perception to carefully aim for and shoot out the knife from the suspect's hand.
 
2014-08-19 11:06:13 PM  

nyseattitude: Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...

You invoke a fictional character in a non-fictional situation then proceed to tell others how their beliefs are wrong. That's rich.


yes, the stupid here does burn, and that picture was just a visual of how annoyed i get by uninformed, untrained, no idea of real life basement dwellers that have never been a police officer, telling police officers how to do their job while sitting in their armchair eating Cheetos.  Seriously, if you have no idea about how to be a cop, or, have never been one, don't give out stupid ass comments monday morning quarterbacking cops who had seconds to stop a knife wielding asshole, when you have all night to think about "what they should have done".  The guy wanted to die, he charged officers with a knife, and he got lit up.  End of story..next.
 
2014-08-19 11:06:16 PM  

vudukungfu: Take a breath here.
Does it really take a degree in psychology to not escalate any situation?
Say, bro? Can you steip back on the curb? If I had be an OUI, I may have hit you.
Just  park it in the shade of the moonlight, a'right?

Hey, bro? You got a light?

But, NOOOooooooooooooo.
You gotta go Barky Fife of 'roids and try to drag the kid in the car like the free candy van is enacting involuntary conscription.

You deal the cards.
You bought the ticket.


Omg, "free candy van" ... updating farky (which is running out of room)
 
2014-08-19 11:06:27 PM  

Yogimus: technically the guy with the knife decided he wanted to have an exciting day, not the cops


 I was sheriff of that county when I was twenty-five years old. Hard to believe. My grandfather was a lawman; father too. Me and him was sheriffs at the same time; him up in Plano and me out here. I think he's pretty proud of that. I know I was. Some of the old time sheriffs never even wore a gun. A lotta folks find that hard to believe. Jim Scarborough'd never carried one; that's the younger Jim. Gaston Boykins wouldn't wear one up in Comanche County. I always liked to hear about the oldtimers. Never missed a chance to do so. You can't help but compare yourself against the oldtimers. Can't help but wonder how they would have operated these times. There was this boy I sent to the 'lectric chair at Huntsville Hill here a while back. My arrest and my testimony. He killt a fourteen-year-old girl. Papers said it was a crime of passion but he told me there wasn't any passion to it. Told me that he'd been planning to kill somebody for about as long as he could remember. Said that if they turned him out he'd do it again. Said he knew he was going to hell. "Be there in about fifteen minutes". I don't know what to make of that. I sure don't. The crime you see now, it's hard to even take its measure. It's not that I'm afraid of it. I always knew you had to be willing to die to even do this job. But, I don't want to push my chips forward and go out and meet something I don't understand. A man would have to put his soul at hazard. He'd have to say, "O.K., I'll be part of this world."
 
2014-08-19 11:06:31 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: rugman11: The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."

Well, that makes four eyewitnesses who saw the killer cop shooting at the unarmed victims back

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""

And yet another witness who saw him shoot the unarmed man with his hands up in a pose of surrender

Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.


Anonymous source claiming to be part of the investigation claims over a dozen witnesses supporting Wilson's story. So there may be more, but I wouldn't put any credence into it.

No released names, no released statements, and a single anonymous source. Its not much to go on, but there is a slight chance there is more to this.

/Probably not
//and seriously, people who make the basis of their argument off of unverified information are idiots.
 
2014-08-19 11:06:57 PM  
Express one's beef.
 
2014-08-19 11:07:10 PM  

TeamEd: Yogimus: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2014/01/band/

Gunshots and knife wounds hover around 75% survival rate with medical attention.

To clarify, the only way a man with a gun makes a man with a knife less dangerous is by shooting the man with a knife. When a superior weapon is introduced, it doesn't make the inferior weapon harmless or less dangerous. The inherent lethality of the inferior weapon does not change.

I do not know enough to be able to guess if this incident was preventable.
However, a police encounter with a man with a knife -- however deranged -- does not necessarily need to end in violence or even non-lethal incapacitation.
De-escalation should always be the primary method of conflict resolution for police. Just because a man is holding a knife and acting erratically, doesn't mean he is planning to act violently. Police in many jurisdictions are trained to talk out those situations as a first resort. Lucky cops have training in how to deal with mental illness etc. Perhaps de-escalation wasn't possible here, maybe the cops didn't have that kind of training, maybe they did and they couldn't get through to the guy, who knows.
But, my lay impression is that cops are becoming less and less hesitant to resort to using deadly force in encounters that would have ended very differently 20 years ago.
/ If I have a choice between taking a knife wound and a bullet wound, I'd go for a knife wound every time.


And you, sir, have raised an outstanding point. Cops are losing valuable police work skills.  Everything is SWAT and Tasers now. This is crap that needs to stop.

Still, talking till the guy is within 3 feet? Pretty above and beyond for a "clean shoot" that could have happened 10 steps ago.
 
2014-08-19 11:07:15 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: moothemagiccow: Smeggy Smurf: El_Perro: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.

Are you aware there are these things called instructors that can teach you how to disarm somebody?  If not, please refer to your nearest source of internet, go to the Google search engine and in the little box for searching input the words "Krav Maga".  Click on the links, read the information, watch the videos and then return to this thread with an informed opinion.  Otherwise you will lack the necessary words to at least appear slightly more than a moron.

/This message brought to you by the council to mock and ridicule the silly

Do the instructors train on real crackheads with real knives? Otherwise it's farking useless

Yeah, how do people train for combat?  Gee I guess no Marine has ever learned to kill with his hands.  No martial artist in history has ever been capable of taking a blade from a punk.


Anyone who would willfully go unarmed against a man with a knife when he has other options is not a martial artist, he is an idiot.

You've obviously never had any martial arts training, especially not in the mythical "Krav Maga" you mentioned earlier. The Hollywood shiat you imagine martial arts to be is not reality. In the real world, you train to disarm men with knives to give you a higher chance of not dying if a knife-wielding man confronts you while you're unarmed. You would literally never choose to do so if you had any other options.

/has actually trained in Krav Maga
//it's mostly "kick them in the balls and run away to grab your gun"
 
2014-08-19 11:08:34 PM  

AeAe: Consider yourself lucky if you encounter a cop and you survive.  Cops will kill you at any provocation and get away with it.


He even profiled me as having drugs in the car, but then I'm white, so apparently I'm not that lucky.
 
2014-08-19 11:08:47 PM  

RogermcAllen: jst3p: Table 1: Use-of-Force Continuum
Suspect resistance Officer use of force
1. No resistance 1. Officer presence
2. Verbal noncompliance 2. Verbal commands
3. Passive resistance 3. Hands-on tactics, chemical spray
4. Active resistance 4. Intermediate weapons: baton, Taser, strikes, nondeadly force
5. Aggressive resistance 5. Intermediate weapons, intensified techniques, nondeadly force
6. Deadly-force resistance 6. Deadly force

That is what the cops say.  If I remember correctly when tasers first gained widespread use it was pitched to the public as a tool to only be used only where you would otherwise have to kill with a gun such as someone on PCP or an aggressive suspect with a knife.  Now it seems like an easy button they like to pull out willy nilly.


I remember it completely the opposite, it was a non-lethal replacement for the nightstick. Then some people died and it became a "less lethal" alternative.


I agree that they use them too often, but I am refuting the contention that they should only be used when facing deadly force, that is not their intended use.
 
2014-08-19 11:08:52 PM  

moonscatter: vudukungfu: Take a breath here.
Does it really take a degree in psychology to not escalate any situation?
Say, bro? Can you steip back on the curb? If I had be an OUI, I may have hit you.
Just  park it in the shade of the moonlight, a'right?

Hey, bro? You got a light?

But, NOOOooooooooooooo.
You gotta go Barky Fife of 'roids and try to drag the kid in the car like the free candy van is enacting involuntary conscription.

You deal the cards.
You bought the ticket.

Omg, "free candy van" ... updating farky (which is running out of room)


Who can take a sunrise, sprinkle it with dew
Cover it with choc'late and a miracle or two?
 
2014-08-19 11:09:14 PM  

Ctrl-Alt-Del: rugman11: The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."

Well, that makes four eyewitnesses who saw the killer cop shooting at the unarmed victims back

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""

And yet another witness who saw him shoot the unarmed man with his hands up in a pose of surrender

Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.


it is also the second accounting that wilson was persuing while firing
 
2014-08-19 11:10:25 PM  
Open a vein
make it rain
 
2014-08-19 11:10:58 PM  
TeamEd:
However, a police encounter with a man with a knife -- however deranged -- does not necessarily need to end in violence or even non-lethal incapacitation.
De-escalation should always be the primary method of conflict resolution for police. Just because a man is holding a knife and acting erratically, doesn't mean he is planning to act violently. Police in many jurisdictions are trained to talk out those situations as a first resort. Lucky cops have training in how to deal with mental illness etc. Perhaps de-escalation wasn't possible here, maybe the cops didn't have that kind of training, maybe they did and they couldn't get through to the guy, who knows.
But, my lay impression is that cops are becoming less and less hesitant to resort to using deadly force in encounters that would have ended very differently 20 years ago.
/ If I have a choice between taking a knife wound and a bullet wound, I'd go for a knife wound every time.


That reminds me of a story a year back of police doing a really good job de-escalating a kid that had gone violent and was mentally ill. Parents called the police in, they responded, were doing a great job calming him down. Was going great. Then another officer wandered in, tased him, and shot him dead... But the originial responders were awesome. The people who do their job well will do their best to de-escalate. Any smart person who ends up in a potentially dangerous situation will do their best to de-escalate. Violence is a last resort.

And choice between a knife wound and a bullet, I'd choose the bullet if I know its not going anywhere lethal. Knife wounds are a lot less clean, and a lot bigger if they twist.
 
2014-08-19 11:10:59 PM  

cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms


I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?
 
2014-08-19 11:11:23 PM  
Caffienatedjedi:One officer could of gone for a taser while the other kept his service weapon trained on the guy, that is if either had a taser. But that is hindsight 20/20. I am sure they will regret not managing to take him alive, but their application of lethal force felt justifiable.

This is actually a reasonable response to the situation, unlike all the "shoot him in the leg" or "try to ninja the knife out of his hands" nonsense in the thread. Good on you for not only coming up with that idea, but also for realizing that you can't really expect someone to come up with that plan within the five seconds during which a crazy man with a knife is advancing on them. Seriously, it's refreshing to see some common sense.
 
2014-08-19 11:11:43 PM  

Cyclometh: Fubini: They're two completely different tools for two completely different scenarios.

And neither should be used unless deadly force is necessary.


Says you.

Tell me, would you rather be tased, or beaten with a baton?

A recent law review and literature survey, one that was published in a real journal, concluded exactly what you would think from common sense. The taser has the potential to seriously injure someone, but that potential is much less than in comparable methods of compliance. There are better outcomes for everyone, in general, when police departments use tasers in lieu of batons and other physical compliance methods. There's been some scaremongering about tasers that has recently subjected them to public criticism, but they've been used successfully for about 30 years now. If there was a serious and widespread problem with their use, it would have surfaced by now.

This paper in particular rejects your claim that tasers should only be used in lieu of deadly force.

http://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10 94 &context=jlh

From section VII, page 381. I've bolded some sections of interest. The paper includes citations for all the factual claims they make.

The deployment of Tasers by law enforcement offers promising benefits in 
saving lives and preventing harm. Indeed, almost every law enforcement agency that 
has implemented Tasers into their artillery has seen a dramatic decrease in police and 
suspect injuries.
 In addition, there are numerous documented cases of officers 
using Tasers instead of firearms in life-threatening situations, thereby preventing 
possible fatalities.

There are, however, legitimate concerns about the safety of Tasers. Although the 
evidence is not conclusive, Tasers may have adverse effects on individuals under the 
influence of drugs or with underlying heart conditions. Additional research needs 
to be conducted.206 Furthermore, there are legitimate concerns about the lack of a 
standard policy, training, and regulation on Taser deployment. Taser's unique 
capabilities of incapacitating suspects, without any threat of harm to the police 
officer or identifiable injury to the suspect, make using force more attractive. As
seen in several studies, if this power goes unchecked and unregulated, law 
enforcement officers may increasingly overuse Tasers in situations that do not 
warrant any force, or where traditional, less painful methods, such as dialogue and 
empty hand controls, would suffice.

Nevertheless, these unknown risks and concerns weighed against the clear 
benefits of Tasers do no justify the wholesale rejection of Tasers, or the strict 
mandate that Tasers act only as an alterative to deadly force.
The majority of the 
risks and concerns can be mitigated by increased training, detailed use-of-force 
polices, and government regulated standards.  For instance, in 2003, following high 
profile trials of Miami police officers and an ongoing Department of Justice 
investigation into alleged patterns of excessive force, the Miami Police Department 
redesigned their use-of-force policies to include a more stringent use-of-force 
continuum and increased oversight. Since the new policies were implemented, 
there has been a decrease in police shootings and allegations of excessive force.

Moreover, there are no other forms of non-lethal force that compare to the safety 
and effectiveness of Tasers.
 If law enforcement eliminated or restricted Tasers to 
only life-threatening situations, police officers would have to resort to chemical 
sprays, batons, punches, kicks, and restraint holds to neutralize an actively resistant 
suspect. Numerous studies have shown that these force options often result in 
escalated amounts of violence towards police officers and increased injuries to all 
parties involved.
 
2014-08-19 11:12:37 PM  
Anyone watching the IAMB feed? Camera guy had his camera fixed on one spot for a while watching people walk. Looks like a local (black) in a suit stopped and started to talk to a white cop. Apparently, they knew each other in that gave the all to familiar straight guy hug. And they both started talking and laughing getting along swimmingly. Seems like this was not want the camera guy wanted and turned the camera around without hesitation. Can't show cops getting along with the locals. That doesn't get ratings and clicks as much as looters and angry rioters throwing projectiles at the cops.
 
2014-08-19 11:13:31 PM  

Caffienatedjedi: Ctrl-Alt-Del: rugman11: The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."

Well, that makes four eyewitnesses who saw the killer cop shooting at the unarmed victims back

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""

And yet another witness who saw him shoot the unarmed man with his hands up in a pose of surrender

Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.

Anonymous source claiming to be part of the investigation claims over a dozen witnesses supporting Wilson's story. So there may be more, but I wouldn't put any credence into it.

No released names, no released statements, and a single anonymous source. Its not much to go on, but there is a slight chance there is more to this.

/Probably not
//and seriously, people who make the basis of their argument off of unverified information are idiots.


that reporter is already backtracked on the claim of 10 witnesses. I will just copy and paste since such a short article

A St. Louis-area reporter who said on Monday that police told her several witnesses backed up Darren Wilson's claim that Michael Brown acted aggressively backtracked on Tuesday.
"On FMLA from paper. Earlier tweets did not meet standards for publication," she said.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, where Byers works, told Business Insider that "she is not involved in the Ferguson coverage while she is on leave. Her tweets are personal."
 
2014-08-19 11:13:48 PM  
Fubini:

FARK YOUR FACTS! TASERS ARE DEATH BEAMS THAT HAVE KILLED OVER 550 PEOPLE IN THE PAST 13 YEARS! YOU'RE WORSE THAN HITLER!

Get it? I'm doing an impression of Cyclo.
 
2014-08-19 11:13:50 PM  

Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?


tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline
 
2014-08-19 11:13:56 PM  
On New Years Eve about 2005 during early evening in my home town. Some guy gave chase from the cops. It was a busy evening on the streets for obvious reasons. I believe it was a car chase. Anyway

cops drew their weapons opened fire and killed an innocent bystander. Suspect lived. So, yes always use lethal force, center mass of course. True story in a nutshell.
 
2014-08-19 11:14:00 PM  

DrExplosion: Caffienatedjedi:One officer could of gone for a taser while the other kept his service weapon trained on the guy, that is if either had a taser. But that is hindsight 20/20. I am sure they will regret not managing to take him alive, but their application of lethal force felt justifiable.

This is actually a reasonable response to the situation, unlike all the "shoot him in the leg" or "try to ninja the knife out of his hands" nonsense in the thread. Good on you for not only coming up with that idea, but also for realizing that you can't really expect someone to come up with that plan within the five seconds during which a crazy man with a knife is advancing on them. Seriously, it's refreshing to see some common sense.


I would assume I am going for the gun and partner is going for taser. I would expect my partner, if he were smart, to assume he (or she) was the one going for the gun. There are other actions they could have taken. But given the circumstances I think the ones they took were justified.
 
2014-08-19 11:14:18 PM  

Gyrfalcon: So cops were gradually switched over to the "less-lethal" Mace, pepper spray and Taser, which are not particularly "less" lethal, but leave pleasingly fewer visible marks on a suspect.


Actually, studies have shown that police departments that user tasers have less overall injury to both suspects and officers.
 
2014-08-19 11:14:45 PM  
*backtracking.
 
2014-08-19 11:14:49 PM  

Boo_Guy: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

The My Little Pony Killer: Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.

I'd like to know what size the knife is.

But 4 feet isn't much space for the officers,  and if they didn't have tasers well then bullets it is then because that's pretty close for someone to a cop with a knife.


21 feet is the rule of thumb for a knife.  7 steps to hit you.  A quick lunging rush is all that takes.

99% of people cannot realistically engage and stop (from a holstered pistol) an armed attacker within 21 feet.  This isn't Hollywood, it's real life.  A man armed with a knife can easily kill you once they are within 21 feet, and you have almost not chance against a determined attacker.  It's not one slash versus one shot, it's one slash then many, many slashes and stabs.  You are simply not going to be able to defend yourself once major muscle groups are severed and quarts of blood are gushing.

Good for the officers who stopped him so close.

True, the timing sucks, but it's righteous.
 
2014-08-19 11:15:29 PM  

Fubini: Gyrfalcon: So cops were gradually switched over to the "less-lethal" Mace, pepper spray and Taser, which are not particularly "less" lethal, but leave pleasingly fewer visible marks on a suspect.

Actually, studies have shown that police departments that user tasers have less overall injury to both suspects and officers.


Immediate ceasing of hostilities.
 
2014-08-19 11:15:30 PM  

Yogimus: TeamEd: Yogimus: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2014/01/band/

Gunshots and knife wounds hover around 75% survival rate with medical attention.

To clarify, the only way a man with a gun makes a man with a knife less dangerous is by shooting the man with a knife. When a superior weapon is introduced, it doesn't make the inferior weapon harmless or less dangerous. The inherent lethality of the inferior weapon does not change.

I do not know enough to be able to guess if this incident was preventable.
However, a police encounter with a man with a knife -- however deranged -- does not necessarily need to end in violence or even non-lethal incapacitation.
De-escalation should always be the primary method of conflict resolution for police. Just because a man is holding a knife and acting erratically, doesn't mean he is planning to act violently. Police in many jurisdictions are trained to talk out those situations as a first resort. Lucky cops have training in how to deal with mental illness etc. Perhaps de-escalation wasn't possible here, maybe the cops didn't have that kind of training, maybe they did and they couldn't get through to the guy, who knows.
But, my lay impression is that cops are becoming less and less hesitant to resort to using deadly force in encounters that would have ended very differently 20 years ago.
/ If I have a choice between taking a knife wound and a bullet wound, I'd go for a knife wound every time.

And you, sir, have raised an outstanding point. Cops are losing valuable police work skills.  Everything is SWAT and Tasers now. This is crap that needs to stop.

Still, talking till the guy is within 3 feet? Pretty above and beyond for a "clean shoot" that could have happened 10 steps ago.


Sure, but there are many steps that they may have taken that could have provoked the man into 'suicide by cop.'
Again, I do not know how this went down. But, these are some things that can escalate a situation.
Did they immediately draw their guns?
Did the cops have their guns trained on the guy, or ready at their sides?
Did they tell him, '... Or we will shoot you,' and implant the idea in the guy's head?
Were they using a loud, agitated tone of voice?
Were they closing ground on him in an aggressive stance?
Etc.
 
2014-08-19 11:15:39 PM  

vudukungfu: moonscatter: vudukungfu: Take a breath here.
Does it really take a degree in psychology to not escalate any situation?
Say, bro? Can you steip back on the curb? If I had be an OUI, I may have hit you.
Just  park it in the shade of the moonlight, a'right?

Hey, bro? You got a light?

But, NOOOooooooooooooo.
You gotta go Barky Fife of 'roids and try to drag the kid in the car like the free candy van is enacting involuntary conscription.

You deal the cards.
You bought the ticket.

Omg, "free candy van" ... updating farky (which is running out of room)

Who can take a sunrise, sprinkle it with dew
Cover it with choc'late and a miracle or two?


*sings* vudu can... he's the candyman... talk about your childhood wishes..."
 
2014-08-19 11:15:54 PM  

MadeInDetroit: Caffienatedjedi: Ctrl-Alt-Del: rugman11: The New York Times has an article with a couple of new witness testimonies.

""It was something strange," said Mr. Brady, 32, a janitor. "Something was not right. It was some kind of altercation. I can't say whether he was punching the officer or whatever. But something was going on in that window, and it didn't look right."
Mr. Brady said he had been interviewed by county investigators, but not the F.B.I.
Mr. Brady said he could see Mr. Johnson at the front passenger side of the car when he and Mr. Brown suddenly started running. Mr. Brady did not hear a gunshot or know what caused them to run. But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled."

Well, that makes four eyewitnesses who saw the killer cop shooting at the unarmed victims back

"James McKnight, who also said he saw the shooting, said that Mr. Brown's hands were up right after he turned around to face the officer.
"I saw him stumble toward the officer, but not rush at him," Mr. McKnight said in a brief interview. "The officer was about six or seven feet away from him.""

And yet another witness who saw him shoot the unarmed man with his hands up in a pose of surrender

Sounds like the biggest witness conflict is whether or not Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot.

Anonymous source claiming to be part of the investigation claims over a dozen witnesses supporting Wilson's story. So there may be more, but I wouldn't put any credence into it.

No released names, no released statements, and a single anonymous source. Its not much to go on, but there is a slight chance there is more to this.

/Probably not
//and seriously, people who make the basis of their argument off of unverified information are idiots.

that reporter is already backtracked on the claim of 10 witnesses. I will just copy and paste since such a short article

A St. Louis-area reporter who said on Monday that po ...


Awesome, didn't hear that. Doesn't get much mention when people who use that argument conveniently cover up anything contradicting it.
 
2014-08-19 11:16:30 PM  
Look, im as anti-everything-in-ferguson as the next guy at the moment.

That being said, if you keep paging Dr.Darwin, eventually hes gonna show up.

Fark this guy.
 
2014-08-19 11:17:38 PM  

parasol: Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?

tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline


Remember that scene in Exit Wounds, where Steven Seagal and some random muscled white guy have a testosterone-fueled face-off by zapping each other with a taser?

Every time I see that scene, I immediately think, "Why the hell would you volunteer for something like that?"

Actually, when I was younger, my first thought was, "They keep that up, and one of them's going to light up like a candle."

/this is what happens when you play too much Syphon Filter
//God, that taser was fun
///and just wrong
 
2014-08-19 11:18:05 PM  
TeamEd:

All valid questions.  Once folks are out of the danger zone, and there is a barrier between you and man with the knife, options open up.  Man sees cops show up, and thinks "fark it I am going to end it all" leaves less options.

All around, I think this was a net gain for society, but a shiatty situation.
 
2014-08-19 11:18:19 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...


If you think that

1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.


WAT?

I don't expect them to be Walker Texas Ranger, or Jackie Chan, but aren't they trained in common self defense and takedown  techniques?

WTF do they expect to do if they lose their weapon, or it malfunctions in an emergency? Run away?
 
2014-08-19 11:18:20 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.


Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

i.dailymail.co.uk

i.dailymail.co.uk

i.dailymail.co.uk

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?
 
2014-08-19 11:18:21 PM  
Hmmm....I wonder how they would've handled this in Great Britain?

Of course if you are a wall paper hanger and live in Pakistan it would be also I'll advised to be caught shop lifting.
 
2014-08-19 11:18:33 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: nyseattitude: Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...

You invoke a fictional character in a non-fictional situation then proceed to tell others how their beliefs are wrong. That's rich.

I'm a primitive, close minded know it all and I'm part of the problem. yes, the stupid here does burn, and that picture was just a visual of how annoyed i get by uninformed, untrained, no idea of real life basement dwellers that have never been a police officer, telling police officers how to do their job while sitting in their armchair eating Cheetos.  Seriously, if you have no idea about how to be a cop, or, have never been one, don't give out stupid ass comments monday morning quarterbacking cops who had seconds to stop a knife wielding asshole, when you have all night to think about "what they should have done".  The guy wanted to die, he charged officers with a knife, and he got lit up.End of story..next.

 
2014-08-19 11:20:28 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: nyseattitude: Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...

You invoke a fictional character in a non-fictional situation then proceed to tell others how their beliefs are wrong. That's rich.

yes, the stupid here does burn, and that picture was just a visual of how annoyed i get by uninformed, untrained, no idea of real life basement dwellers that have never been a police officer, telling police officers how to do their job while sitting in their armchair eating Cheetos.  Seriously, if you have no idea about how to be a cop, or, have never been one, don't give out stupid ass comments monday morning quarterbacking cops who had seconds to stop a knife wielding asshole, when you have all night to think about "what they should have done".  The guy wanted to die, he charged officers with a knife, and he got lit up.  End of story..next.


i212.photobucket.com

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
 
2014-08-19 11:21:02 PM  

Fubini: This paper in particular rejects your claim that tasers should only be used in lieu of deadly force.


You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.
 
2014-08-19 11:21:27 PM  

WhyKnot: I have played Double Dragon enough to know the cops really only needed to do a jump kick on the suspect. Such an attack is enough to cause said suspect to drop his weapon...the officer will land in a crouching position, but he will be able to stand before the suspect does and thus be the first to retrieve the weapon.

Just saying...


Thank you for the hardest laughing fit I've had in about a year. I was getting so pissed off at the complete ignorance of some of these people, and that post hit me right in the funny bone.

/tingley
//as good for you as it was for me?
 
2014-08-19 11:22:01 PM  
Cyclometh:

You really don't understand how words work.
 
2014-08-19 11:22:36 PM  

GardenWeasel: Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...


If you think that

1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.

WAT?

I don't expect them to be Walker Texas Ranger, or Jackie Chan, but aren't they trained in common self defense and takedown  techniques?

WTF do they expect to do if they lose their weapon, or it malfunctions in an emergency? Run away?


/yes they are, and handgun retention, that does not vitiate their right to defend themselves against a lethal weapon with lethal force.  WTH would you let someone like that...get close enough to grapple with you? Come on man, use some sense.
 
2014-08-19 11:23:06 PM  
I read this and now know why so few people go into law enforcement.  In one split second your are either dead or a murderer and second guessed by just about everyone.   Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
 
2014-08-19 11:23:20 PM  
Guy had a knife threatening the cops.

As much as i haaaate the police....its a legit shoot.
 
2014-08-19 11:24:03 PM  

jst3p: RogermcAllen: jst3p: Table 1: Use-of-Force Continuum
Suspect resistance Officer use of force
1. No resistance 1. Officer presence
2. Verbal noncompliance 2. Verbal commands
3. Passive resistance 3. Hands-on tactics, chemical spray
4. Active resistance 4. Intermediate weapons: baton, Taser, strikes, nondeadly force
5. Aggressive resistance 5. Intermediate weapons, intensified techniques, nondeadly force
6. Deadly-force resistance 6. Deadly force

That is what the cops say.  If I remember correctly when tasers first gained widespread use it was pitched to the public as a tool to only be used only where you would otherwise have to kill with a gun such as someone on PCP or an aggressive suspect with a knife.  Now it seems like an easy button they like to pull out willy nilly.

I remember it completely the opposite, it was a non-lethal replacement for the nightstick. Then some people died and it became a "less lethal" alternative.


I agree that they use them too often, but I am refuting the contention that they should only be used when facing deadly force, that is not their intended use.


The Taser was initially sold to cops as an alternative to the gun, not the nightstick. It was NEVER intended to be used in place of the baton, and never thought to be "non-lethal" by police or military personnel (from whom it initially descended) but always less-lethal.

As I said above, it was sold to the public as a replacement to the nightstick in the post-riotous 60's and 70's, when people were tired of seeing beaten-up young protestors showing up on the news all the time; the supposedly clean, bruiseless and instantaneous effect of the Taser vs. the prolonged pain of a beating made it appealing to the lefty public; while the 50K volt punishment made it friendly to the right who approved of giving criminals a good what-for.

At about the same time, the PR-24 was introduced, and was so incredibly deadly in the hands of a skilled officer (see Bit o'Gristle's remarks, above), that both the left and the right became alarmed and were looking for anything to replace an 18" piece of steel that could cave in a charging suspect's skull with one twirl. Enter the Taser, a post-military piece of less-lethal hardware that was NEVER meant to replace the baton, but ONLY to replace a bullet--which should have told people how deadly it really was, but nobody ever put two and two together.

Unfortunately, the younger generation of cops has grown up with two intersecting realities: That the Taser is a replacement for other less-lethal methods of compliance; at the same time as the unreliable Tasers of the 80's have become much more refined and powerful today. (Early Tasers, for instance, could be blocked by even a heavy denim jacket; and they were one-shot only: Once the prongs were released and the first bolt discharged, they could not be fired again until a new cartridge was installed) And the public wants 110% safety from drug-crazed terrorists wielding Glock AR-47 assault grenade launchers; at the same time as they demand that suspects not be damaged when police arrest them. Since these are not compatible demands, noncompliant suspects usually end up paying the price.
 
2014-08-19 11:24:18 PM  

Cyclometh: Fubini: This paper in particular rejects your claim that tasers should only be used in lieu of deadly force.

You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.


So you are going to just completely ignore the post where I showed that you are 100% incorrect? You know other people can read it and see you are 100% incorrect, right?
 
2014-08-19 11:24:26 PM  

TeamEd: Sure, but there are many steps that they may have taken that could have provoked the man into 'suicide by cop.'
Again, I do not know how this went down. But, these are some things that can escalate a situation.


You're talking like the cops are the ones who are fundamentally responsible here.

The guy they shot had just looted a store, and was ranting and raving with a knife out. They didn't put that guy in a position where he was threatening passers-by and the officers, the guy put himself there. He obviously had people concerned at a level that they decided to call 911 in the middle of all that has been going on.

It's a shame that they had to shoot him, but regardless of all other mitigating factors, this guy was a threat to public safety. That's the job of the police- to protect the public safety, then protect themselves, and then protect the suspect. It doesn't matter if he had mental problems, or if he was high, or if he was just confused- he was presenting a threat to the public and then he presented an immediate mortal threat to the officers themselves, so he got himself shot.

As far as I can tell, the only people who are suggesting the officers did anything wrong are people on the internet. It certainly sounds like the people on the ground were happy to have the officers there.
 
2014-08-19 11:24:38 PM  
 
2014-08-19 11:25:00 PM  

Yogimus: Cyclometh:

You really don't understand how words work.


At this point, I'm not even sure what y'all are debating. Tasers are deadly, but they are significantly less likely to kill than a gun. I don't think that can be debated.

Usage of them can though.

Frankly, I think its just semantics at this point, and arguing semantics has never accomplished a thing.
 
2014-08-19 11:25:08 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x346]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x352]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x320]

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


I don't mean to be that guy...but that exchange didn't end cleanly:

Cornered by police, he lashed out - attacking a patrol car and stabbing one officer before he was finally wrestled to the ground.

Given the kind of damage we know a knife can do...
 
2014-08-19 11:25:20 PM  
Guy did it to himself. Cops were in the right. Dude came close enough and didn't put the knife down and approached them. They weren't gonna hug.
 
2014-08-19 11:25:30 PM  
I love how people who don't even know what the legal definition of "deadly force" is are lecturing me on not understanding the meaning of words.
 
2014-08-19 11:26:05 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x346]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x352]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x320]

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


to be fair, in your middle pic the situation looks to have the potential to go very pear-shaped for the cops
 
2014-08-19 11:26:16 PM  

jst3p: Cyclometh: Fubini: This paper in particular rejects your claim that tasers should only be used in lieu of deadly force.

You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.

So you are going to just completely ignore the post where I showed that you are 100% incorrect? You know other people can read it and see you are 100% incorrect, right?


You mean the one citing a link to  Police Chief Magazine? In response to one from the Stanford School of Law?
 
2014-08-19 11:26:34 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: GardenWeasel: Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...


If you think that

1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.

WAT?

I don't expect them to be Walker Texas Ranger, or Jackie Chan, but aren't they trained in common self defense and takedown  techniques?

WTF do they expect to do if they lose their weapon, or it malfunctions in an emergency? Run away?

/yes they are, and handgun retention, that does not vitiate their right to defend themselves against a lethal weapon with lethal force.  WTH would you let someone like that...get close enough to grapple with you? Come on man, use some sense.


You claimed we should not expect cops to be trained to disarm a suspect. That is EXACTLY what I expect them to do. Being a cop shouldn't be a game of farking duck hunt every time there is a confrontation. I realize it ts not always feasible, but it should always be on the table.
 
2014-08-19 11:26:38 PM  
Grand jury probe will start tomorrow so a lot of questions and misinformation will be answered
 
2014-08-19 11:26:53 PM  

GardenWeasel: Bit'O'Gristle: Good lord....here on Fark...


If you think that

1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

if you think any of these things are or should have been valid alternatives, check yourself into the nearest reality clinic, i hear they can help now.

WAT?

I don't expect them to be Walker Texas Ranger, or Jackie Chan, but aren't they trained in common self defense and takedown  techniques?

WTF do they expect to do if they lose their weapon, or it malfunctions in an emergency? Run away?


Rule of combat #1: you are not Superman.

You are operating under the assumption that said techniques are 100% effective, the suspect has no training or is not on drugs, and that the cops actually practice said techniques.
 
2014-08-19 11:26:57 PM  

Clutch2013: Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x346]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x352]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x320]

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?

I don't mean to be that guy...but that exchange didn't end cleanly:

Cornered by police, he lashed out - attacking a patrol car and stabbing one officer before he was finally wrestled to the ground.

Given the kind of damage we know a knife can do...



His body armor blocked the blade, so none of the cops were injured.
 
2014-08-19 11:27:11 PM  
https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson

Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 2m
cops shut down dance party truck out of nowhere. things were fairly quiet now it's sort of reignited... http://instagram.com/p/r50tXTMslh/
 
2014-08-19 11:27:30 PM  

The more you eat the more you fart: Guy had a knife threatening the cops.

As much as i haaaate the police....its a legit shoot.


When the eye witness's themselves say it was "Suicide by cop" , its hard to feel much pity as the guy was asking for it.  The only reason this is a story is because of the geographical location.

Wait for it, some total farker has a 15 paragraph retort about why were uncivilized plebs.
 
2014-08-19 11:27:34 PM  

Cyclometh: jst3p: Cyclometh: Fubini: This paper in particular rejects your claim that tasers should only be used in lieu of deadly force.

You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.

So you are going to just completely ignore the post where I showed that you are 100% incorrect? You know other people can read it and see you are 100% incorrect, right?

You mean the one citing a link to  Police Chief Magazine? In response to one from the Stanford School of Law?


Yeah, the link about actual police policy as opposed to the study in how to limit liability.
 
2014-08-19 11:29:57 PM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson

Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 2m
cops shut down dance party truck out of nowhere. things were fairly quiet now it's sort of reignited... http://instagram.com/p/r50tXTMslh/


Of course they did. Can't keep the protestors from getting agitated or we won't justify our budget increase. God Damn they are idiots.
 
2014-08-19 11:30:02 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Enter the Taser, a post-military piece of less-lethal hardware that was NEVER meant to replace the baton, but ONLY to replace a bullet--which should have told people how deadly it really was, but nobody ever put two and two together.


Taser is used on average 28 times per day
550 fatal events related to their use in 13 years.

Apparently you can put the two together, if you would bother.

132,860 uses for 550 deaths.

Pepper spray kills too, but it is harder to get numbers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/mackenzie-cochran-mall-pepp er -spray-dies_n_4695269.html )

No, stun guns, while abhorrent in their existence, are not remotely comparable to firearms.
 
2014-08-19 11:30:14 PM  

Clutch2013: parasol: Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?

tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline

Remember that scene in Exit Wounds, where Steven Seagal and some random muscled white guy have a testosterone-fueled face-off by zapping each other with a taser?

Every time I see that scene, I immediately think, "Why the hell would you volunteer for something like that?"

Actually, when I was younger, my first thought was, "They keep that up, and one of them's going to light up like a candle."

/this is what happens when you play too much Syphon Filter
//God, that taser was fun
///and just wrong


i attended a police appreciation dinner and the after-meal entertainment was an in-house film of officers getting tased to "qualify" to carry. The only one who didn't swear and drop like a sack of flour was a female - she swore, staggered and then dropped.  They teased the crap out of each other over it as we watched.
 
2014-08-19 11:30:37 PM  

21-7-b: to be fair, in your middle pic the situation looks to have the potential to go very pear-shaped for the cops


Still, cops in countries like the UK deal with knife-weilding assailants all day in and out and don't feel the need to go all Hot Fuzz on everyone. What makes us special where people can't be disarmed non-leathally or an unarmed man can't be subdued? All of this non-lethal stuff that everyone says is unworkable seems to actually work all over the world.

What gives?
 
2014-08-19 11:30:43 PM  

jst3p: DrExplosion: Caffienatedjedi:One officer could of gone for a taser while the other kept his service weapon trained on the guy, that is if either had a taser. But that is hindsight 20/20. I am sure they will regret not managing to take him alive, but their application of lethal force felt justifiable.

This is actually a reasonable response to the situation, unlike all the "shoot him in the leg" or "try to ninja the knife out of his hands" nonsense in the thread. Good on you for not only coming up with that idea, but also for realizing that you can't really expect someone to come up with that plan within the five seconds during which a crazy man with a knife is advancing on them. Seriously, it's refreshing to see some common sense.

I would assume I am going for the gun and partner is going for taser. I would expect my partner, if he were smart, to assume he (or she) was the one going for the gun. There are other actions they could have taken. But given the circumstances I think the ones they took were justified.


Yeah, I believe it would have been better tactically and strategically (of all the times to have a suicide by cop) if one had prepared to shoot while the other attempted to tase, but it's completely unrealistic to expect this to happen. I've been in enough lethal force situations to know that the brain just doesn't reliably work that way unless the cops have received serious training for exactly this scenario. Even then, I'd forgive them for shooting the crazy knife guy walking towards them.

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x346]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x352]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x320]

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


Didn't read the link, but just looking at the pictures it evidently took four cops to take that guy down, and they got lucky. Look in the second picture at the cop who's apparently been knocked to the ground. If the knife guy was actually coherent and intent on killing anyone, that man (and possibly others) would be dead.

And as you said, other countries have lower crime rates. American cops need guns because they're policing a country full of Americans.
 
2014-08-19 11:33:14 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x346]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x352]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x320]

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


Did you really just post an article with 'police risked their lives' in the headline as an example of working fine when going hand to hand with a knife-wielding suspect? Seriously? Heheh.
 
2014-08-19 11:33:55 PM  

Cyclometh: Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.


You must not have actually read what I said. I'll quote you the one sentence that is most relevant:

Nevertheless, these risks and concerns weighed against the clear benefits of Tasers do no justify the wholesale rejection of Tasers, or the strict mandate that Tasers act only as an alterative to deadly force.

That statement clearly implies that tasers should be used for compliance in situations where deadly force is not warranted. Ergo, they are not a type of deadly force. You can contradict me all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

Let's throw out the words "deadly force" for a second, so we can stop arguing about whose definition is better. These are the facts:

1) The taser is less likely to result in death compared to other compliance methods such as chemical sprays, batons, punches, kicks, and restraint holds.
2) The taser is less likely to result in permanent injury or disfigurement compared to other compliance methods such as chemical sprays, batons, punches, kicks, and restraint holds.
3) The taser causes less discomfortcompared to other compliance methods such as chemical sprays, batons, punches, kicks, and restraint holds.
4) The  taser causes injury to officers and subjects alikecompared to other compliance methods such as chemical sprays, batons, punches, kicks, and restraint holds.

Now, instead of arguing about what is or what isn't deadly force, argue to me why police officers should be using chemical sprays, batons, punches, kicks, and restraint holds instead of using tasers.
 
2014-08-19 11:35:02 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-08-19 11:35:59 PM  

Cyclometh: I love how people who don't even know what the legal definition of "deadly force" is are lecturing me on not understanding the meaning of words.


Yep. Silly me, 15 years of training from both legal and practical applications ill prepared me for your tendency to insist definitions upon words that don't fit.

Deadly Force: An amount of force that is likely to cause either serious bodily injury or death to another person.
Likely: used to indicate the chance that something will happen
Serious injury: is defined as "a personal injury which results in death; dismemberment; significant disfigurement; a fracture; loss of a fetus; permanent loss of use of a body organ, member, function or system; permanent consequential limitation of use of a body organ or member; significant limitation of use of a body function or system; or a medically determined injury or impairment of a non-permanent nature which prevents the injured person from performing substantially all of the material acts which constitute such person's usual and customary daily activities for not less than ninety days during the one hundred eighty days immediately following the occurrence of the injury or impairment. 


Again. Words mean things. You can't toss them around willie nillie. because IT REALLY superhard means that to you, doesn't mean it means farkall to the world around you. Words aren't tinkerbell, and they don't exist because you clapped real hard.
 
2014-08-19 11:36:16 PM  
DrExplosion: I've been in enough lethal force situations to know that the brain just doesn't reliably work that way unless the cops have received serious training for exactly this scenario.

And there is the problem. Why haven't they?
 
2014-08-19 11:38:17 PM  

Bazzlex001: thaylin: Bazzlex001: Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound

If you are going to shoot you never aim for anything but center mass and never for anything other than to stop, which typically means kill.. Aiming for the leg of a moving person is difficult and chances are you will miss and then he will be on you with the knife. Not saying they should have tried non lethal force. But shooting anything other than center mass is never a good idea.

That makes sense, but My understanding is that he was immobile for a significant amount of time before he lunged at them.

Regardless, this brings to light a better question than that: why the Fark do these police departments have mine-resistant APCs, but a negligible amount of tasers? -_-


Because the Pentagon didn't have them to pass along? It's not like they were standard issue for those headed to Fallujah... Hell, they weren't even properly equipped for an *actual* war.
 
2014-08-19 11:38:33 PM  

GardenWeasel: DrExplosion: I've been in enough lethal force situations to know that the brain just doesn't reliably work that way unless the cops have received serious training for exactly this scenario.

And there is the problem. Why haven't they?


looks like they did, and executed it flawlessly.
 
2014-08-19 11:39:10 PM  

Yogimus: Cyclometh: I love how people who don't even know what the legal definition of "deadly force" is are lecturing me on not understanding the meaning of words.

Yep. Silly me, 15 years of training from both legal and practical applications ill prepared me for your tendency to insist definitions upon words that don't fit.

Deadly Force: An amount of force that is likely to cause either serious bodily injury or death to another person.
Likely: used to indicate the chance that something will happen
Serious injury: is defined as "a personal injury which results in death; dismemberment; significant disfigurement; a fracture; loss of a fetus; permanent loss of use of a body organ, member, function or system; permanent consequential limitation of use of a body organ or member; significant limitation of use of a body function or system; or a medically determined injury or impairment of a non-permanent nature which prevents the injured person from performing substantially all of the material acts which constitute such person's usual and customary daily activities for not less than ninety days during the one hundred eighty days immediately following the occurrence of the injury or impairment. 


Again. Words mean things. You can't toss them around willie nillie. because IT REALLY superhard means that to you, doesn't mean it means farkall to the world around you. Words aren't tinkerbell, and they don't exist because you clapped real hard.


This is why I prefer using the terms lethal, less lethal, and non lethal. Gives more flexibility than deadly force and not deadly force.
 
2014-08-19 11:39:11 PM  

ElLoco: Did you really just post an article with 'police risked their lives' in the headline as an example of working fine when going hand to hand with a knife-wielding suspect? Seriously? Heheh.


Well, it is the Daily Mail so there is going to be some hyperbole, but technically police are risking their lives whenever they deal with a potentially violent suspect so it is correct.

Still, they took down the suspect with no one getting injured because their equipment and training did its job. And since you don't see a huge body count of foreign cops being knifed to death, obviously SOMETHING is working right over there.
 
2014-08-19 11:39:50 PM  

parasol: Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?

tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline


Um. Then, some officers should go unarmed. With a tool like a taser specifically designed for situations like this as a less lethal option, officers should be required to justify carrying a firearm. You know, something situation ally dependent. Who cares about the cost? Of all the stuff our governments waste money on, an electrically charged device vs. Keeping a service weapon in use, well the costs of range time, ammunition, weapons specialists such as armourers, gunsmiths, trainers, it's gotta be pricey. Something along a British model of having armed officers show up on call, without going full SWAT has to be better all around, cheaper and fewer dead.
 
2014-08-19 11:40:10 PM  
Yogimus:
Here is the number one benefit of tasers:
...
It i also a courtesy. A tool that CAN be used, not one that must be used instead of lethal force.


A courtesy?  Thank you sir, may I have another?

Sorry but you have presumed righteousness on the part of the police. While that may make sense to the police, the general spirit of our constitution is to avoid doing that very thing.

As far as is clear in the referenced case, no objections. But the general idea that it is a "courtesy" of the police to not use lethal force if they have a viable alternative is class A level bullpuckey.
 
2014-08-19 11:40:16 PM  

Cyclometh: I love how people who don't even know what the legal definition of "deadly force" is are lecturing me on not understanding the meaning of words.


sure, deadly force - those guys that slither through bogs wearing goggles and rappel upside-down in total silence - everyone knows that - offshoot of the marine core and what not

maybe you could slap him with some foolscap and suggest dictionaries at dawn. Your seconds can bring a thesaurus
 
2014-08-19 11:40:22 PM  

Cyclometh: You mean the one citing a link to  Police Chief Magazine? In response to one from the Stanford School of Law?


Dude... the paper you linked doesn't even have anyone's name on it. You know what that means? Nobody wants to be associated with it.

Better yet, when you follow the single link in the paper to the "Stanford Criminal Justice Center" you get a "Page Not Found" error. Not only does nobody want to be associated with your report, but the program that produced it is now defunct, or your citation is too old to be considered credible. That's all assuming that somebody just didn't make it up in the first place.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/academic/programs/criminaljustice

I happen to work in a research lab. Everybody from the undergrads doing summer projects up to PhDs with decades of experience in the field get to put the name of the lab on their papers. The name "Standford School of Law" without any other context means exactly jack squat.
 
2014-08-19 11:40:40 PM  

Fubini: Let's throw out the words "deadly force" for a second, so we can stop arguing about whose definition is better. These are the facts:


No, let's not. Because that is the crux of the entire debate. And the  fact is, I have been correct in my statements all along:

Tasers are a form of deadly force.
Their use is less likely to be lethal. That does not make using them not using deadly force.
They are not a substitute for deadly force, they are a type of deadly force.

I won't let you move the goalposts, sorry. Everything in the article you cited pointed out that essentially "Yeah, it was deadly force, but it's still a better option than other kinds of deadly force". Which is true, but does not change the essential fact that the use of a taser constitutes the use of deadly force under the law.

What is happening is that people are trying to weasel out of the very clearly defined phrase "deadly force" by saying "it doesn't kill people". Well, aside from the fact that they (admittedly rarely) do, death is not a requirement for the use of force to be defined as "deadly force".
 
2014-08-19 11:41:52 PM  
Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.
 
2014-08-19 11:42:42 PM  
*peaks around internet*

Yep, fark is about the only place that people aren't in agreement that this asshole had it coming. Charging police with about 100 witness's and a farking knife is just at TAD different circumstances.
 
2014-08-19 11:43:02 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

/ i have explained this before, and i guess i have to again.  The cops generally use equal force plus one.  That means, if you are wanting to fight with no weapon, you're getting 1. the mace, or 2. the nightstick, or 3, tased. That is equal force plus one.  if you have a weapon, such as a knife, im not going to fence you with my nightstick, nor am i going to attempt to tase you, as that could fail. (thick clothing..or just miss). If you have a weapon, knife, heavy club, gun, etc....you're getting shot.  That again is equal force plus one. I'm not letting you get that close to me so i can play swords with you having a knife, and me a nightstick.   I have no idea why this is so hard to understand. it's the way all the police departments are trained.  if you want to fight a guy who has a knife and you have a stick, more power to you.


MadeInDetroit: moothemagiccow: MadeInDetroit: Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?

Yeah I remember everyone farking loved it when cops started being armed with tasers. We watched that shiat on youtube and laughed and laughed. "Don't tase me bro." No one got upset about that shiat at all. We didn't freak out even a little when some kid with a heart condition bit it.

And now everyone loves tasers. Is the desire to biatch online or just to eliminate every police force? Seriously, what the fark is the gun for? If you wanna question one farking thing, fark the farking tanks. No one's been killed with a tank or a tear gas grenade yet. You wanna get mad about something? Get mad at the thing that actually kills people, the thing that every cop on duty wears. I'm sure you'll probably get pissed at the patrol car before you even think of questioning that every farking beat cop has a gun.

great speech but only one problem. Police in the rest of the country are trained on matching appropriate force with force with most never having to fire a weapon one time on duty in their careers. You have nightsticks, pepper spray, mace, flash grenades, rubber bullets, bean bags, LRAD, extensive hand to hand training to disarm a knife, or wait for it...talking down the situation using all four years of the criminal justice degree you earned. The rest of the police across the country somehow are able to do this and excel at their job protecting the country.



With so many police training experts around I just don't know who to believe?
 
2014-08-19 11:43:22 PM  

albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.


No it isn't, stop baiting.
 
2014-08-19 11:44:45 PM  

GardenWeasel: DrExplosion: I've been in enough lethal force situations to know that the brain just doesn't reliably work that way unless the cops have received serious training for exactly this scenario.

And there is the problem. Why haven't they?


Because "what to do if you and another cop, while in an area of civil unrest brought about as a result of police violence, are confronted by a deranged man with a knife who advances on you while telling you to kill him" is far too specific to be helpful. The scenario is incredibly unlikely, and you can only do so much training. They've got higher priorities, too. Personally, I'd rather have them spend that day (yes, they'd need at least a day of practicing this exact scenario, and then they'd need to spend a few hours each year to maintain proficiency) at the range improving their marksmanship skills. Cops don't exactly have the best marksmanship records, and every shot they miss has to go somewhere, like into a bystander.

The only real "problem" here is that we don't live in The Matrix yet and cops can't download their training directly into their brains.
 
2014-08-19 11:44:54 PM  
Someone mentioned LRAD upthread; It'll be interesting to see if the fortunes of the companies that make the things change based on the fact that they've done zero good in the Ferguson crisis, and arguably made things worse by riling up crowds through their repeated use.
 
2014-08-19 11:45:13 PM  
Cyclometh:You mean the one citing a link to  Police Chief Magazine? In response to one from the Stanford School of Law?

Yeah, and when you go to the real website for the Stanford Criminal Justice Center, they have a "Publications" page, and your document is nowhere to be found.

So you know, you can stick with your paper that you found because you Googled "why are tasers bad", but I'm going to stick with my researched and cited journal paper.

I guess we're done now. Have a good night.
 
2014-08-19 11:47:20 PM  

albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.


538 how many americans the police kill each year

Of course, it's hard to do suicide by cop with an English Bobby who says
You can sleep at home tonight, if you can get up and walk away.

Heaven is where the police are British, the lovers French, the mechanics German, the chefs Italian, and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German American, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.
 
2014-08-19 11:47:56 PM  

Cyclometh: Fubini: Let's throw out the words "deadly force" for a second, so we can stop arguing about whose definition is better. These are the facts:

No, let's not. Because that is the crux of the entire debate. And the  fact is, I have been correct in my statements all along:

Tasers are a form of deadly force.
Their use is less likely to be lethal. That does not make using them not using deadly force.
They are not a substitute for deadly force, they are a type of deadly force.

I won't let you move the goalposts, sorry. Everything in the article you cited pointed out that essentially "Yeah, it was deadly force, but it's still a better option than other kinds of deadly force". Which is true, but does not change the essential fact that the use of a taser constitutes the use of deadly force under the law.

What is happening is that people are trying to weasel out of the very clearly defined phrase "deadly force" by saying "it doesn't kill people". Well, aside from the fact that they (admittedly rarely) do, death is not a requirement for the use of force to be defined as "deadly force".


Agaim, your insistence on your own definitions flies in the already existing "Words that mean things" category.  I posted the definition. I posted the legal definitions of the words in the definition. It isn't your ignorance that tickles me, it is your pride in that ignorance. Tasers are as "likely" to result in death. They have a 0.413 fatality rate.

HERP SEE LETHALZ! response notwithstanding, do the math on how this stacks up to other forms of lethal force.
 
2014-08-19 11:47:57 PM  

Boon23834: parasol: Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?

tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline

Um. Then, some officers should go unarmed. With a tool like a taser specifically designed for situations like this as a less lethal option, officers should be required to justify carrying a firearm. You know, something situation ally dependent. Who cares about the cost? Of all the stuff our governments waste money on, an electrically charged device vs. Keeping a service weapon in use, well the costs of range time, ammunition, weapons specialists such as armourers, gunsmiths, trainers, it's gotta be pricey. Something along a British model of having armed officers show up on call, without going full SWAT has to be better all around, cheaper and fewer dead.


Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.
 
2014-08-19 11:48:14 PM  

Cyclometh: No, let's not. Because that is the crux of the entire debate. And the  fact is, I have been correct in my statements all along:

Tasers are a form of deadly force.
Their use is less likely to be lethal. That does not make using them not using deadly force.
They are not a substitute for deadly force, they are a type of deadly force.


When someone says, "Let's stop talking about substantive facts and instead argue about definitions some more" you know it's time to stop talking.

Under your thought process, virtually anything is considered to be "deadly force" because virtually anything can kill someone. What you're saying is that pepper spray and non-irritant smoke should be considered deadly force because those things have been known to kill people with asthma.

Have a good night, we're just not going to agree.
 
2014-08-19 11:48:34 PM  

Yogimus: Tasers are as "likely" to result in death.


I did not say that. Please don't put words in my mouth to fit your own narrative.
 
2014-08-19 11:48:47 PM  

Fubini: Cyclometh:You mean the one citing a link to  Police Chief Magazine? In response to one from the Stanford School of Law?

Yeah, and when you go to the real website for the Stanford Criminal Justice Center, they have a "Publications" page, and your document is nowhere to be found.

So you know, you can stick with your paper that you found because you Googled "why are tasers bad", but I'm going to stick with my researched and cited journal paper.

I guess we're done now. Have a good night.


It is amazing that he doesn't realize what a joke he is in this thread. He has had his dick knocked in the dirt at every turn by multiple people and goes on to post "I have been correct in my statements all along:"

It is hilarious, in a way.
 
2014-08-19 11:49:24 PM  

DrExplosion: GardenWeasel: DrExplosion: I've been in enough lethal force situations to know that the brain just doesn't reliably work that way unless the cops have received serious training for exactly this scenario.

And there is the problem. Why haven't they?

Because "what to do if you and another cop, while in an area of civil unrest brought about as a result of police violence, are confronted by a deranged man with a knife who advances on you while telling you to kill him" is far too specific to be helpful. The scenario is incredibly unlikely, and you can only do so much training. They've got higher priorities, too. Personally, I'd rather have them spend that day (yes, they'd need at least a day of practicing this exact scenario, and then they'd need to spend a few hours each year to maintain proficiency) at the range improving their marksmanship skills. Cops don't exactly have the best marksmanship records, and every shot they miss has to go somewhere, like into a bystander.

The only real "problem" here is that we don't live in The Matrix yet and cops can't download their training directly into their brains.


Yes we should only emphasize marksmanship, so firearms are even more of a 1st option. Excellent.
 
2014-08-19 11:50:21 PM  

wademh: Hell is where the police are GermanAmerican, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.


Are you saying that our modern police force is like the gestapo? If so, I'd urge you read a history book. Try looking under "H" for "holocaust" in the index.
 
2014-08-19 11:50:26 PM  

doglover: Boon23834: parasol: Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?

tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline

Um. Then, some officers should go unarmed. With a tool like a taser specifically designed for situations like this as a less lethal option, officers should be required to justify carrying a firearm. You know, something situation ally dependent. Who cares about the cost? Of all the stuff our governments waste money on, an electrically charged device vs. Keeping a service weapon in use, well the costs of range time, ammunition, weapons specialists such as armourers, gunsmiths, trainers, it's gotta be pricey. Something along a British model of having armed officers show up on call, without going full SWAT has to be better all around, cheaper and fewer dead.

Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.


When cops started calling people civilians, and started to act like military enforcers, is when things started turning sour.
 
2014-08-19 11:50:51 PM  

Tenz83: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

No it isn't, stop baiting.


Actually it seems it is, Wiki mentions only the US, except for one in the UK, and I can think of one here locally in Canuckastain.

And how is pointing out that this is a phenomena that happens almost exclusively in a country that has a heavily militarized police force "baiting"?, FTFA "...The chief said the man told the police: "Shoot me now. Kill me now." ...."
 
2014-08-19 11:52:39 PM  

Yogimus: When cops started calling people civilians ... is when things started turning sour.


Hill Street Blues?
 
2014-08-19 11:53:04 PM  

jst3p: It is amazing that he doesn't realize what a joke he is in this thread. He has had his dick knocked in the dirt at every turn by multiple people and goes on to post "I have been correct in my statements all along:"


I have a hard time believing he's not trolling. I'd be concerned if he wasn't... I mean... you know that people like that exist, but you fool yourself into thinking, "That never happens in my neighborhood internet message board".
 
2014-08-19 11:53:48 PM  

Cyclometh: Fubini: They're two completely different tools for two completely different scenarios.

And neither should be used unless deadly force is necessary.


Or unless a mischievous fan runs onto the field of play during a major sporting event.
 
2014-08-19 11:54:07 PM  

GardenWeasel: Yogimus: When cops started calling people civilians ... is when things started turning sour.

Hill Street Blues?


Having to see Dennis Franz's ass on network TV?
 
2014-08-19 11:54:21 PM  

Cyclometh: Someone mentioned LRAD upthread; It'll be interesting to see if the fortunes of the companies that make the things change based on the fact that they've done zero good in the Ferguson crisis, and arguably made things worse by riling up crowds through their repeated use.


What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?  You gotta figure that would clear the crowd pretty quickly. Or Slim Whitman and Indian Love Call  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FhQxZnSqc0
 
2014-08-19 11:56:19 PM  

Fubini: jst3p: It is amazing that he doesn't realize what a joke he is in this thread. He has had his dick knocked in the dirt at every turn by multiple people and goes on to post "I have been correct in my statements all along:"

I have a hard time believing he's not trolling. I'd be concerned if he wasn't... I mean... you know that people like that exist, but you fool yourself into thinking, "That never happens in my neighborhood internet message board".


If he is he has mastered the craft.
 
2014-08-19 11:56:37 PM  

Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.


I'm curious about how often you look over your shoulder to check for cops while using a knife. Or do you feel you don't have to because of the color of your skin?
 
2014-08-19 11:57:36 PM  

doglover: Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.


Of course Japan doesn't have problems, why would a cop be scared in a place where everyone looks the same?

/interpreting that as individuals is a joke
//interpreting that as ethnicities is serious
///THREES
 
2014-08-19 11:58:21 PM  
Yes, they are nearly as bad as a gun, because they're still a deadly weapon and should not be used unless it's really necessary because there's no good reason to risk someone's life just because a cop needs a midol.


And yes, again- they ARE as bad as a gun because their use constitutes deadly force, by definition. The consequence of their use  tends to be less severe than for a firearm, but they are  still lethal weapons and should not be used casually. Don't dismiss their dangers just because you have this idea that there's varying degrees of "deadly force". Escalation past a certain point is just about how much risk you're willing to take on and that judgement is made in instants.

I consider tasers to be a useful device in that they can help prevent what would otherwise be a death, but because they have this reputation (fomented by people like yourself) of being "not as bad as a gun", it becomes far easier to justify their use in situations not calling for deadly force.

And neither should be used unless deadly force is necessary.

You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.

I love how people who don't even know what the legal definition of "deadly force" is are lecturing me on not understanding the meaning of words.

Tasers are a form of deadly force.
Their use is less likely to be lethal. That does not make using them not using deadly force.
They are not a substitute for deadly force, they are a type of deadly force.



Please, enlighten me on what the fark you are trying to say, because you seem to be all over the damned place. I have shown stats and definitions that contradict your feelings, and for that I am sorry, but this is the kind of confusion you cause when you start making up your own meanings to words
 
2014-08-19 11:58:27 PM  

wademh: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

538 how many americans the police kill each year

Of course, it's hard to do suicide by cop with an English Bobby who says
You can sleep at home tonight, if you can get up and walk away.

Heaven is where the police are British, the lovers French, the mechanics German, the chefs Italian, and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German American, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.


While I am unsure of your premise that Bobby's are that nice(despite, I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE).  I agree with the rest of this, though I would prefer the Chefs be Indian(some sort of wheat thing going on so past does not agree)

/Not that I really care
//Horns
///Slashies
 
2014-08-19 11:58:30 PM  

IronTom: Dotson, we got Dotson here.


Thank you. Not sure what I did to deserve it, but thanks!
 
2014-08-19 11:59:04 PM  
So far it seems fairly quiet. Well, considering the circumstances anyway.

Amazing what happens when you don't form the cops into a giant line and lay off the sound cannons and tear gas.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:04 PM  

wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?


There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:20 PM  

Mad_Radhu: 21-7-b: to be fair, in your middle pic the situation looks to have the potential to go very pear-shaped for the cops

Still, cops in countries like the UK deal with knife-weilding assailants all day in and out and don't feel the need to go all Hot Fuzz on everyone. What makes us special where people can't be disarmed non-leathally or an unarmed man can't be subdued? All of this non-lethal stuff that everyone says is unworkable seems to actually work all over the world.

What gives?


well, in the last ten years the number of police deaths in the uk is about 1% of that for the us, believe it or not, so very different
 
2014-08-19 11:59:42 PM  

GardenWeasel: DrExplosion: GardenWeasel: DrExplosion: I've been in enough lethal force situations to know that the brain just doesn't reliably work that way unless the cops have received serious training for exactly this scenario.

And there is the problem. Why haven't they?

Because "what to do if you and another cop, while in an area of civil unrest brought about as a result of police violence, are confronted by a deranged man with a knife who advances on you while telling you to kill him" is far too specific to be helpful. The scenario is incredibly unlikely, and you can only do so much training. They've got higher priorities, too. Personally, I'd rather have them spend that day (yes, they'd need at least a day of practicing this exact scenario, and then they'd need to spend a few hours each year to maintain proficiency) at the range improving their marksmanship skills. Cops don't exactly have the best marksmanship records, and every shot they miss has to go somewhere, like into a bystander.

The only real "problem" here is that we don't live in The Matrix yet and cops can't download their training directly into their brains.

Yes we should only emphasize marksmanship, so firearms are even more of a 1st option. Excellent.


Ah, now I see I was talking to an idiot. This time I bolded the part you should have noticed earlier. Range time doesn't teach cops when to shoot, it helps them put the bullets where they're supposed to go when it's time to shoot. This means only the bad guy gets shot, instead of the bad guy and nine bystanders.

The level of detail you want in police training is simply not possible. For a comprehensive, reality-based escalation of force policy, "shooting the crazy guy who's coming at you with a knife" is pretty much perfect.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:45 PM  

Fubini: wademh: Hell is where the police are GermanAmerican, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.

Are you saying that our modern police force is like the gestapo? If so, I'd urge you read a history book. Try looking under "H" for "holocaust" in the index.


No. When I want to say our police are like the Gestapo, you'll know it, because I'll say our police are like the Gestapo. If that's confusing to you, write it down on a 3x5 index card for reference. File it under S.
 
2014-08-19 11:59:56 PM  

Yogimus: Fubini: Cyclometh: http://www.law.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/child-page/164097/do c/ slspublic/tasers.pdf

The crux of that report is that a law enforcement agency subjects itself to potential liability by using tasers, not that they're bad tools. At the heart of their analysis is simply the fact that tasers haven't been used for very long, so there is no proven track record of case law that shows police departments that it's safe to do so.

Like others have said, other methods of gaining compliance are comparatively more violent and much riskier for both the subject and the officer, and your report fails to address that second issue at all. If an officer breaks his leg or gets stabbed in a physical altercation with someone, that police department is going to be making unemployment and disability payments that easily meet or exceed the excessive use of force settlements cited in the report.

Here is the number one benefit of tasers:

They don't look violent on film.

Here is the real benefit of tasers:

When used successfully, the conflict is immediately over. A baton, gas, a FLASHLIGHT (What farking idiot said this? I mean really? I can't be bothered to look, but if this was you, you are a farking moron and should feel bad) when used on a suspect DO NOT guarantee compliance, and the situation can escalate to lethal force in a rapid manner. A Taser stops the escalation. Right or wrong, (and I am against them, mind you) a taser is an "I SAID SO" switch.

It i also a courtesy. A tool that CAN be used, not one that must be used instead of lethal force.


Plus its a lot easier to kill with a baton (even a modern expanding model) than with a taser.
 
2014-08-20 12:00:43 AM  

DrExplosion: You've obviously never had any martial arts training, especially not in the mythical "Krav Maga" you mentioned earlier. The Hollywood shiat you imagine martial arts to be is not reality. In the real world, you train to disarm men with knives to give you a higher chance of not dying if a knife-wielding man confronts you while you're unarmed. You would literally never choose to do so if you had any other options.


That's why I learned Llap Goch
 
2014-08-20 12:01:31 AM  

12349876: doglover: Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.

Of course Japan doesn't have problems, why would a cop be scared in a place where everyone looks the same?

/interpreting that as individuals is a joke
//interpreting that as ethnicities is serious
///THREES


I think this does bring up an important point. A lot of the nations with lower rates of crime/police issues are much more homogenized. That areas with high issues are often either more interacially integrated or have massive racial tensions.
 
2014-08-20 12:01:47 AM  

wademh: Fubini: wademh: Hell is where the police are GermanAmerican, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.

Are you saying that our modern police force is like the gestapo? If so, I'd urge you read a history book. Try looking under "H" for "holocaust" in the index.

No. When I want to say our police are like the Gestapo, you'll know it, because I'll say our police are like the Gestapo. If that's confusing to you, write it down on a 3x5 index card for reference. File it under S.


What does the S stand for?
 
2014-08-20 12:02:00 AM  

albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.


The rules of engagement are clear about when, where, and to what extent police are authorized to use deadly force.

The rules of engagement don't explain that using deadly force during a larger public protest might be strategically foolish and possibly incite the public towards greater violence, leading to deaths and damages far greater than the initial confrontation. RoE doesn't impart wisdom.

American police training prioritizes applying categorized responses towards irrational people. When a person doesn't fit into a proper category the textbook solution is to use force to make them fit.
 
2014-08-20 12:02:33 AM  

wademh: Fubini: wademh: Hell is where the police are GermanAmerican, the lovers Swiss, the mechanics French, the chefs British, and it is all organized by the Italians.

Are you saying that our modern police force is like the gestapo? If so, I'd urge you read a history book. Try looking under "H" for "holocaust" in the index.

No. When I want to say our police are like the Gestapo, you'll know it, because I'll say our police are like the Gestapo. If that's confusing to you, write it down on a 3x5 index card for reference. File it under S.


If that's the reference I think it is- very nice.
 
2014-08-20 12:03:43 AM  

Darth Macho: RoE doesn't impart wisdom.


Best statement of the thread.
 
2014-08-20 12:04:11 AM  

albatros183: Tenz83: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

No it isn't, stop baiting.

Actually it seems it is, Wiki mentions only the US, except for one in the UK, and I can think of one here locally in Canuckastain.

And how is pointing out that this is a phenomena that happens almost exclusively in a country that has a heavily militarized police force "baiting"?, FTFA "...The chief said the man told the police: "Shoot me now. Kill me now." ...."


I'm saying baiting because it just doesn't happen in only the US or UK. Only reason a wiki would have is because of the statistics have been gathered in these 2 countries. Suicide by cop is a world phenomenon.

"Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which a suicidal individual deliberately acts in a threatening way, provoking a lethal response from a law enforcement officer or other legitimately armed individual, such as being shot to death."

People all over the world do it. It's just the United States and UK compiled stats while many other countries don't bother was my point.
 
2014-08-20 12:04:16 AM  

Darth Macho: American police training prioritizes applying categorized responses towards irrational people. When a person doesn't fit into a proper category the textbook solution is to use force to make them fit.


Yep. Force them to a compliance/resistance posture.

"Get up"
- No
/grab suspect
-pulls away
WOO HOO RESISTANCE!
 
2014-08-20 12:04:37 AM  

Gosling: So far it seems fairly quiet. Well, considering the circumstances anyway.

Amazing what happens when you don't form the cops into a giant line and lay off the sound cannons and tear gas.


That and people start actually shooting live rounds with no care to whom gets hit.

I think that did more than anything else to sheer the crowds. It's one thing to get teargassed. It's another thing to have bullets flying past you.
 
2014-08-20 12:06:00 AM  
Tim Pool on Livestream just now: "Seems like a lot of these actions the police take... just agitate people."
 
2014-08-20 12:06:19 AM  
Cops seem to be trying to stir up some shiat right now
 
2014-08-20 12:06:40 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-08-20 12:06:43 AM  
"It's a trap"
 
2014-08-20 12:06:45 AM  

Tenz83: albatros183: Tenz83: albatros183: Am I the only one that notices that suicide by cop is only a thing in the US?, I'm pretty sure that says something about how quick on the draw American cops are, or maybe it just says something about Americans.

No it isn't, stop baiting.

Actually it seems it is, Wiki mentions only the US, except for one in the UK, and I can think of one here locally in Canuckastain.

And how is pointing out that this is a phenomena that happens almost exclusively in a country that has a heavily militarized police force "baiting"?, FTFA "...The chief said the man told the police: "Shoot me now. Kill me now." ...."

I'm saying baiting because it just doesn't happen in only the US or UK. Only reason a wiki would have is because of the statistics have been gathered in these 2 countries. Suicide by cop is a world phenomenon.

"Suicide by cop is a suicide method in which a suicidal individual deliberately acts in a threatening way, provoking a lethal response from a law enforcement officer or other legitimately armed individual, such as being shot to death."

People all over the world do it. It's just the United States and UK compiled stats while many other countries don't bother was my point.


Look up how many folks walked toward the borders in eastern europe, and into russian gunfire. This is just a tiny little wall, in a great big world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_at_the_Berlin_Wall
 
2014-08-20 12:06:47 AM  

Cyclometh: wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?

There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.


Actually Rasputin seem to have that effect on most people in my experience, unfortunately "Operation Nifty Package" 's Wiki page doesn't say what songs they played.
 
2014-08-20 12:07:07 AM  
Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.
 
2014-08-20 12:07:13 AM  

TheJoe03: Cops seem to be trying to stir up some shiat right now


I bet the LRAD comes on in the next ten minutes.
 
2014-08-20 12:09:28 AM  

Cyclometh: wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?

There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.


Indeed, you caught the reference. But I did not suggestion anything as cruel and unusual as David Lee Roth ad infinitum.  And "crowd control" is not really the right term. It's more like de-crowding. If required, however, I would be prepared to get ruthless and put on a loop of "It's a Small World After-all". Screw the Geneva Convention.
 
2014-08-20 12:10:03 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


The problem with rolling with less lethal is that if the situation turns lethal they won't have the time to swap to appropriate measures. Using less lethal on someone already lethal will get you killed. It might be possible to go the other way, but I don't think it would be practical.
 
2014-08-20 12:10:15 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


For a bunch of reasons, but the big one is that when you really need lethal force, you're not going to have time to change mags. And a second reason is that more complexity means more mistakes. It's better for police to be trained to use their firearms properly (shoot center of mass), and never to use them at all unless it's absolutely necessary.

I mean, that's just the START of the list of reasons.

/also, rubber bullets usually aren't made of rubber
 
2014-08-20 12:10:37 AM  

MadeInDetroit: Grand jury probe will start tomorrow so a lot of questions and misinformation will be answered


Not really. It depends on the goal of the prosecutor. There isn't a defense at the grand jury, only a prosecution. Thats where the old indicting a ham sandwhich comes from.
 
2014-08-20 12:11:37 AM  

Cyclometh: Fubini: This paper in particular rejects your claim that tasers should only be used in lieu of deadly force.

You need to look up the definition of "deadly force". Because every use of force you cited in that post was, in fact- deadly force.

Tasers should not be (and are not intended to be) used in lieu of deadly force. They  are a type of deadly force. Just because they tend to not be lethal as often as firearms, does not mean they are not deadly force.


As I understand, "deadly force" is defined as force that is expected, or that should be expected, to create a serious risk of death or of grievous bodily injury.

I lack the legal training to know whether use of a Taser® meets that definition, and thus I will defer to individuals with appropriate experience in the matter.
 
2014-08-20 12:13:29 AM  
DrExplosion:

What does the S stand for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNvi6xG-5Y   (Sarcasm)
 
2014-08-20 12:14:48 AM  

Tenz83: bait


Ok while that may be true it does seem very lopsided, the example cited for the UK is of a sniper(from the SWAT type unit) killing someone, which is the same as the one I am thinking of here in TO, but in the US it is a thing, ie why we even have a term for it. So it seems a bit disingenuous to to say that it is baiting, also WTF am I supposed to be baiting?, Cop hate?, pretty sure I don't need to here, pointing out that the US has a really badly broken social hierarchy is baiting?.
 
2014-08-20 12:15:01 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


Because the rules of engagement are about negating threats, and the only option with a 100% assurance of negating the threat is to kill it.

Police, unlike military, never wait for the threat to attack before engaging; by design police are supposed to shoot first.
 
2014-08-20 12:15:19 AM  

overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.


Interesting concept.

It would probably work for 80-85% of America. I wouldn't want that situation in large cites though. The transition period could easily be the difference between life and death if engaged with an armed individual or someone on pcp.
 
2014-08-20 12:16:22 AM  

wademh: DrExplosion:

What does the S stand for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNvi6xG-5Y   (Sarcasm)


Heh, I was wrong. I thought you were making a (very) oblique reference to the fact that the Gestapo wasn't responsible for the Holocaust, the SS was.

/I should be less of a history geek
 
2014-08-20 12:18:19 AM  

albatros183: Cyclometh: wademh: What if they went low tech and blasted out Abba instead?

There's precedent for doing stuff like that- witness the invasion of Panama, but in that case they weren't trying to control crowds, but rather to wear down an besieged enemy .

I would argue that the use of any acoustic devices that aren't incapacitating in a scenario where you are trying to control crowds is counter-productive. as it would be more likely to make people angry than to make them disperse. I don't know of any acoustic devices that are incapacitating without risking harm to targets and the operator.

Actually Rasputin seem to have that effect on most people in my experience, unfortunately "Operation Nifty Package" 's Wiki page doesn't say what songs they played.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_in_psychological_operations 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-NshzYK9y0
 
2014-08-20 12:18:35 AM  
https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench

Antonio French @AntonioFrench  · 7s
So far, so good. https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeaceInFerguson>#PeaceInFerguson


I like the "Peace Train"
 
2014-08-20 12:19:19 AM  

nyseattitude: overfienduglar: Why don't cops keep there gun loaded with rubber bullets, so the default is non-lethal force when they draw the gun. These can still potential kill, it's just less likely. Carry a clip with the lethal ammo for when you need it.

Interesting concept.

It would probably work for 80-85% of America. I wouldn't want that situation in large cites though. The transition period could easily be the difference between life and death if engaged with an armed individual or someone on pcp.


Plus I wouldn't want to use less lethal rounds as non law enforcement.

Many prosecutors would salivate at the use of less lethal rounds. The claik would be "I guess you really weren't in fear for your life. "
 
2014-08-20 12:19:20 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench

Antonio French @AntonioFrench  · 7s
So far, so good. https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeaceInFerguson>#PeaceInFerguson


I like the "Peace Train"


Yeah, that was cool, and a good idea.
 
2014-08-20 12:20:20 AM  

Cyclometh: wademh: DrExplosion:

What does the S stand for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNvi6xG-5Y   (Sarcasm)

Heh, I was wrong. I thought you were making a (very) oblique reference to the fact that the Gestapo wasn't responsible for the Holocaust, the SS was.

/I should be less of a history geek


Double sarcasm!? I knew the Holocaust was bad, but I'd never even heard of this. Those damn Nazis...
 
2014-08-20 12:22:13 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench

Antonio French @AntonioFrench  · 7s
So far, so good. https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeaceInFerguson>#PeaceInFerguson


I like the "Peace Train"


So your saying you are terrorist   ?,  singing Sharia law glorifying songs?

/Sorry not at my best tonight
 
2014-08-20 12:22:47 AM  
Cyclometh:

/I should be less of a history geek

Send some Kansas Jayhawkers in to assist with the unrest in Missouri.
Have the William Clarke Quantrill Society arrange hospitality and accommodation.
 
2014-08-20 12:23:14 AM  
DrExplosion:
Double sarcasm!? I knew the Holocaust was bad, but I'd never even heard of this. Those damn Nazis...

But don't forget, still not as bad as Tasers.
 
2014-08-20 12:23:27 AM  

Cyclometh: Heh, I was wrong. I thought you were making a (very) oblique reference to the fact that the Gestapo wasn't responsible for the Holocaust, the SS was.


Uh, the Gestapo was responsible for guarding and maintaining the Jewish ghettos, and they had their own squads that hunted down jews/undesirables in order to send them to concentration camps or directly put them to death.

They didn't operate the big concentration camps, but that doesn't mean they weren't responsible.
 
2014-08-20 12:23:52 AM  

Cyclometh: Heh, I was wrong


About oh so much in this thread.
 
2014-08-20 12:23:57 AM  

albatros183: Tenz83: bait

Ok while that may be true it does seem very lopsided, the example cited for the UK is of a sniper(from the SWAT type unit) killing someone, which is the same as the one I am thinking of here in TO, but in the US it is a thing, ie why we even have a term for it. So it seems a bit disingenuous to to say that it is baiting, also WTF am I supposed to be baiting?, Cop hate?, pretty sure I don't need to here, pointing out that the US has a really badly broken social hierarchy is baiting?.


Baiting as in "only the US" has suicide by cop. Society all over is broken. The US making the term doesn't mean it only occurs in the US. And by your use of Baiting of US hate when suicide by cop isn't exclusive to the US.
 
2014-08-20 12:24:32 AM  
The peace train has no breaks!
 
2014-08-20 12:25:01 AM  
Where is everyone tonight?
 
2014-08-20 12:25:33 AM  
I bet the tension would settle if the cops started throwing beads.
 
2014-08-20 12:30:45 AM  
Live ammunition question Tim?
 
2014-08-20 12:31:22 AM  

nyseattitude: Live ammunition question Tim?


Police are  not happy he's asking that question.
 
2014-08-20 12:34:04 AM  

nyseattitude: Where is everyone tonight?


Far from Ferguson, last Black kid the cops murder here, he got charged, so no riots, of course this is the first time ever, and the Crown is playing for time by adding charges to drag things out, same thing happened with the Downtown drug squad that was accused of Dealing, extortion and multiple murders, got thrown out because of "delays"
 
2014-08-20 12:34:16 AM  

Cyclometh: nyseattitude: Live ammunition question Tim?

Police are  not happy he's asking that question.


Translation: yes, they have live ammo, but they're not going to admit it.
 
2014-08-20 12:37:58 AM  

Cyclometh: nyseattitude: Live ammunition question Tim?

Police are  not happy he's asking that question.


LOL at the bolded text to make it sound as though that statement was newsworthy.

The SOP for just about every job in the real world (burger flipper to CEO) is to defer to the media officer if the media ever asks you a question.
 
2014-08-20 12:40:01 AM  
Tim's got some people on megaphone suggesting everyone wrap for the night, get some sleep and show up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at the grand jury tomorrow morning.
 
2014-08-20 12:40:53 AM  

Gosling: Tim's got some people on megaphone suggesting everyone wrap for the night, get some sleep and show up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at the grand jury tomorrow morning.


I really hope they don't try to disrupt the grand jury. Tainting the process won't help.
 
2014-08-20 12:41:10 AM  

albatros183: nyseattitude: Where is everyone tonight?

Far from Ferguson, last Black kid the cops murder here, he got charged, so no riots, of course this is the first time ever, and the Crown is playing for time by adding charges to drag things out, same thing happened with the Downtown drug squad that was accused of Dealing, extortion and multiple murders, got thrown out because of "delays"


Sorry, meant Farkers, not demonstrators.
 
2014-08-20 12:44:29 AM  

Cyclometh: Gosling: Tim's got some people on megaphone suggesting everyone wrap for the night, get some sleep and show up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at the grand jury tomorrow morning.

I really hope they don't try to disrupt the grand jury. Tainting the process won't help.


Well, I have a feeling that if they think the judicial process has failed there will be issues, and fast. I honestly hope an indictment is made so that this can go through the judicial system with formal charges. Then this thing can hopefulyl be put to rest, and no matter the result, lead to changes to prevent this in the future.
 
2014-08-20 12:45:25 AM  
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Retweeted by
Jake Tapper @jaketapper  · 6m

Out of town protestor was VERY eager to confront police#Ferguson protest leaders steered him away.
 
2014-08-20 12:46:00 AM  

RogermcAllen: The SOP for just about every job in the real world (burger flipper to CEO) is to defer to the media officer if the media ever asks you a question.


Snarky McSnarking smurphing aside, critique the press conference in TFA. Should he have waited for somebody with a more expensive haircut?
 
2014-08-20 12:46:30 AM  
The prosecuting attorney (yes same one that spoke out against the governor for replacing police chief with Ron Johnson) doesn't see a conflict of interest if he has to prosecute the officer. The prosecutor's father, mother, brother, uncle and cousin have all worked for the department, and his father was killed while responding to a call involving a black suspect.
 
2014-08-20 12:47:28 AM  

Yogimus: a FLASHLIGHT (What farking idiot said this? I mean really? I can't be bothered to look, but if this was you, you are a farking moron and should feel bad) w


Flashlights have a long and storied history as crowd control weapons, both for police use and as personal defense weapons. Women used to keep them in their cars for that reason- it wasn't just for repairs. We're not talking little tactical LED thing here, we're talking about the big metal things filled with D cell batteries, often with a 2 foot handles. And we're not talking about shining them in people's eyes. Whack someone with one of those, and you can do some serious, serious damage.

Of course, even the small ones can be very useful when it comes to self defense. Those teeth around the lens that you find on many are explicitly for hitting people with, and blinding people can be very effective. If I get you in the eyes with my 245 lumen flashlight, it's going to distract you, and then I'll have time to hurt you with the metal body.

So yeah, not as stupid as you seem to think it is.
 
2014-08-20 12:48:10 AM  

nyseattitude: albatros183: nyseattitude: Where is everyone tonight?

Far from Ferguson, last Black kid the cops murder here, he got charged, so no riots, of course this is the first time ever, and the Crown is playing for time by adding charges to drag things out, same thing happened with the Downtown drug squad that was accused of Dealing, extortion and multiple murders, got thrown out because of "delays"

Sorry, meant Farkers, not demonstrators.


Class war, think your better than me? just because you pay 5$ a month for CAFE threads?
 
2014-08-20 12:48:16 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Retweeted by
Jake Tapper @jaketapper  · 6m

Out of town protestor was VERY eager to confront police#Ferguson protest leaders steered him away.


I have been getting that sense. That looks to be the main tactic tonight: ID the more obvious-looking shiat-stirrers and don't let them get mixed in with everyone else. The locals are kinda fed up with having these huge battles every night.
 
2014-08-20 12:48:35 AM  

Gosling: Tim's got some people on megaphone suggesting everyone wrap for the night, get some sleep and show up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at the grand jury tomorrow morning.


https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · 16s
"I got warrants in Clayton, fark that." - protestor I overheard discussing planned demonstration tomorrow#Ferguson
 
2014-08-20 12:49:55 AM  

albatros183: nyseattitude: albatros183: nyseattitude: Where is everyone tonight?

Far from Ferguson, last Black kid the cops murder here, he got charged, so no riots, of course this is the first time ever, and the Crown is playing for time by adding charges to drag things out, same thing happened with the Downtown drug squad that was accused of Dealing, extortion and multiple murders, got thrown out because of "delays"

Sorry, meant Farkers, not demonstrators.

Class war, think your better than me? just because you pay 5$ a month for CAFE threads?


What about the Total Farkers that were sponsored up? I didn't pay a cent for this month of TF.
 
2014-08-20 12:50:14 AM  

Yogimus: Gyrfalcon: Enter the Taser, a post-military piece of less-lethal hardware that was NEVER meant to replace the baton, but ONLY to replace a bullet--which should have told people how deadly it really was, but nobody ever put two and two together.

Taser is used on average 28 times per day
550 fatal events related to their use in 13 years.

Apparently you can put the two together, if you would bother.

132,860 uses for 550 deaths.

Pepper spray kills too, but it is harder to get numbers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/mackenzie-cochran-mall-pepp er -spray-dies_n_4695269.html )

No, stun guns, while abhorrent in their existence, are not remotely comparable to firearms.


I'm not sure why you're so adamant on the idea that I'm promoting some agenda. Tasers are not, repeat NOT "non-lethal". They are "LESS-lethal" and always have been.

The issue is not whether they are equal in deaths per thousand to firearms--that is patently absurd--but that they were sold to the public and to many police departments as if they were the opposite--as if they were NOT equivalent to firearms in terms of potential lethality. It's completely irrelevant to my analysis whether there have been 500 deaths in 13 years, or five--the point is that the reason they are in such wide use AT ALL is because the general public has this idea--an idea which has trickled into the police departments that serve that same public--that Tasers are virtually nonlethal, and any deaths have been strange aberrations.

The public perception is that Tasers are a less dangerous alternative to the common nightstick (cf. Fusillade's post up above), when in fact they were intended to be a less dangerous alternative to the firearm. That makes more sense, but because of this perception that they are somehow less dangerous than a nightstick, Tasers are used in situations where a BATON would be unacceptable. They were intended to be used in situations where a GUN would be unacceptable, but where a baton would be useless.

So, OF COURSE there are fewer deaths by Taser than by gun. The problem is, too many of those deaths occur because the Taser should not have been deployed at all--but because of the perception that a Taser should have been used instead of a nightstick (or just a few more minutes of command voice), it was used, fatally.

So you can stop beating me, at least, over the head with your statistics. I'm fully aware that in real numbers, Tasers are less fatal than bullets. However, in the minds of too many people, Tasers are less fatal than fists, and that's where the problem lies.
 
2014-08-20 12:50:21 AM  

WhyKnot: I have played Double Dragon enough to know the cops really only needed to do a jump kick on the suspect. Such an attack is enough to cause said suspect to drop his weapon...the officer will land in a crouching position, but he will be able to stand before the suspect does and thus be the first to retrieve the weapon.

Just saying...


This one of the funniest things I've ever read on Fark. Well done, sir.
 
2014-08-20 12:51:07 AM  

albatros183: nyseattitude: albatros183: nyseattitude: Where is everyone tonight?

Far from Ferguson, last Black kid the cops murder here, he got charged, so no riots, of course this is the first time ever, and the Crown is playing for time by adding charges to drag things out, same thing happened with the Downtown drug squad that was accused of Dealing, extortion and multiple murders, got thrown out because of "delays"

Sorry, meant Farkers, not demonstrators.

Class war, think your better than me? just because you pay 5$ a month for CAFE threads?


Close...

2014-08-17 from System: You've been gifted one month of TotalFark by 'XXXXXXXXXX'! See your email for details.
 
2014-08-20 12:51:36 AM  

Gosling: nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Retweeted by
Jake Tapper @jaketapper  · 6m

Out of town protestor was VERY eager to confront police#Ferguson protest leaders steered him away.

I have been getting that sense. That looks to be the main tactic tonight: ID the more obvious-looking shiat-stirrers and don't let them get mixed in with everyone else. The locals are kinda fed up with having these huge battles every night.


I recall a video circulating of Alderman French decking an agitator a night or two ago. It was amazing. Protestors are turning against the agitators way more than they were to begin with, which was still a pretty good amount.
 
2014-08-20 12:53:47 AM  
Ah, damn. Someone threw a water bottle at the cops.
 
2014-08-20 12:54:09 AM  
Someone chucked a water bottle. Uh oh. That's usually the first sign.
 
2014-08-20 12:54:35 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-08-20 12:55:02 AM  

Gosling: Someone chucked a water bottle. Uh oh. That's usually the first sign.


Yeah. Here comes the LRAD. After that will be the CS.
 
2014-08-20 12:55:17 AM  
Aaw geez, not this shiat again.
/Yes, this shiat again.
 
2014-08-20 12:55:59 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: Gosling: nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Retweeted by
Jake Tapper @jaketapper  · 6m

Out of town protestor was VERY eager to confront police#Ferguson protest leaders steered him away.

I have been getting that sense. That looks to be the main tactic tonight: ID the more obvious-looking shiat-stirrers and don't let them get mixed in with everyone else. The locals are kinda fed up with having these huge battles every night.

I recall a video circulating of Alderman French decking an agitator a night or two ago. It was amazing. Protestors are turning against the agitators way more than they were to begin with, which was still a pretty good amount.


Yes. There was also a guy approaching the police line while pointing and yelling. He ran up, grabbed him and physically dragged him back into the crowd.
 
2014-08-20 12:56:16 AM  
Someone telling people to turn cameras off?
 
2014-08-20 12:57:31 AM  
lol, seriously? SWAT coming in for a stolen mobile phone?
 
2014-08-20 12:58:58 AM  
Ah, here we go with the "and/or other actions" guy.
 
2014-08-20 12:59:32 AM  
VICE livestream up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24e6RfL_jbg

SWAT rolling up, someone stole a cell phone, SWAT rolling up, locals herding people onto sidewalk, Tim Pool on scene, another bottle thrown.

Local: "Stay back, I just got a gun right in my face..."
Microphone Cop: "You need to immediately stop throwing objects and disperse immediately."
Tim Pool: "They're now giving the order to disperse. This is usually where things go bad..."
 
2014-08-20 01:00:06 AM  

Cyclometh: Ah, here we go with the "and/or other actions" guy.


This is the "If you have stolen roadsigns and are now walking around with them in the street, you may be arrested guy."

I like him more. He is funny.
 
2014-08-20 01:00:07 AM  
Oh fark.
 
2014-08-20 01:00:11 AM  

MadeInDetroit: The prosecuting attorney (yes same one that spoke out against the governor for replacing police chief with Ron Johnson) doesn't see a conflict of interest if he has to prosecute the officer. The prosecutor's father, mother, brother, uncle and cousin have all worked for the department, and his father was killed while responding to a call involving a black suspect.


Would you buy an acquittal from this man?

/needs a pic of J. Nixon flashing a peace sign
 
2014-08-20 01:00:22 AM  
Live rounds. Fark.
 
2014-08-20 01:00:27 AM  

chozo13: I am okay with his one. No one in their right mind would grapple a crazy man with a knife if there were any other options available. Guy rushed the cops and was literally asking to be killed.

I feel bad for the cops being forced to be this jerks suicide tool. No one should be put through that.


Really, if some criminal came at a civilian with a knife and that civilian was armed, would anyone question that person shooting the guy with the knife?
 
2014-08-20 01:00:31 AM  
So, what happens if it turns out the guy with the knife was seriously mentally ill and couldn't even grasp what he was doing? Or are we juts declaring open season on mentally ill people cause it's easier that way?
 
2014-08-20 01:00:43 AM  

Cyclometh: Someone telling people to turn cameras off?


The trouble makers did the same thing Saturday and Sunday night.
 
2014-08-20 01:00:56 AM  
Now they're trying to corral the media back into their pen.
 
2014-08-20 01:02:46 AM  

WhyteRaven74: So, what happens if it turns out the guy with the knife was seriously mentally ill and couldn't even grasp what he was doing? Or are we juts declaring open season on mentally ill people cause it's easier that way?


Frost: What are we supposed to do, man? Use harsh language?
 
2014-08-20 01:04:20 AM  
Everybody seems to love Tim Pool but as I listen to him, I think he's an idiot.
Every time he gives his little recap of events he presents it as this simplistically dichotomous snippet of "reached for the gun" versus "hands up, don't shoot".

I'm thinking adrenalin junky, controversy junky, AW. Drama for the sake of drama with more interest in spectacle than objective reporting!  It's a "reality TV" variant of reality. I guess I need another drink.
 
2014-08-20 01:04:22 AM  

Cyclometh: Now they're trying to corral the media back into their pen.


I hate media being corraled away, but it looks like agitators are targeting the media now as well. And after gunshots, they want media safe. The worst thing that can happen is dead media, the second worst is corralling them away.
 
2014-08-20 01:04:37 AM  
Microphone Cop: "All credentialed media need to get back to the designated media area immediately."
Tim Pool: "Someone's attacking a journalist here."
[Attacker appeared to be civilian, not police. Hard to tell Other civilians trying to de-escalate.]
Tim Pool: "Feels like things are getting a bit calmer. People forming a line, holding hand, seems like they're trying to lower the tensions."
[Vice going down for 30s to swap batteries.]
 
2014-08-20 01:04:47 AM  

WhyteRaven74: So, what happens if it turns out the guy with the knife was seriously mentally ill and couldn't even grasp what he was doing? Or are we juts declaring open season on mentally ill people cause it's easier that way?


You state a valid point. When a person threatens serious harm, up to and including death, to others, absolutely no action should be taken that would endanger the aggressor's life, due to the possibility that the aggressor is mentally ill. To use deadly force against an armed aggressor is to declare that mentally ill individuals may be killed with impunity. The two concepts are completely logically equivalent.
 
2014-08-20 01:05:37 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: Cyclometh: Now they're trying to corral the media back into their pen.

I hate media being corraled away, but it looks like agitators are targeting the media now as well. And after gunshots, they want media safe. The worst thing that can happen is dead media, the second worst is corralling them away.


You'd think that as much as the cops have been in the media's grill that they'd be on the guy. But not an officer in sight.

Of course, when the media's trying to film the police doing something, it's all guns in their faces and screams to get the fark out.
 
2014-08-20 01:06:58 AM  

Twilight Farkle: VICE livestream up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24e6RfL_jbg

SWAT rolling up, someone stole a cell phone, SWAT rolling up, locals herding people onto sidewalk, Tim Pool on scene, another bottle thrown.

Local: "Stay back, I just got a gun right in my face..."
Microphone Cop: "You need to immediately stop throwing objects and disperse immediately."
Tim Pool: "They're now giving the order to disperse. This is usually where things go bad..."


Thanks for the synopsis!

Cyclometh: Ah, here we go with the "and/or other actions" guy.


Cyclometh: Oh fark.


Gosling: Live rounds. Fark.


Sounds like just another night in Ferguson at this point...
 
2014-08-20 01:07:32 AM  
https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson
 
2014-08-20 01:07:46 AM  
Talk about a cliffhanger... they sure can pick a time to need to change batteries on vice feed, can't they?
 
2014-08-20 01:08:15 AM  
Group of protestors trying to join hands in a line between the cops and the other protestors. So far it appears to be working.
 
2014-08-20 01:08:38 AM  

Elegy: Sounds like just another night in Ferguson at this point...


Actually, in some ways it's much better than previous nights. I really had thought the cops would be following their standard playbook:

1) And/or other actions guy for a few minutes.
2) LRAD
3) Put another line of police behind the crowd.
4) Launch tear gas and smoke, then advance.
 
2014-08-20 01:09:08 AM  
A guy just attacked another guy. I think the attacker was a local and the man who he attacked was the New Black Panther leader, Malik Zulu Shabazz. I've read that locals are getting sick and tired of him. According to them, Shabazz on the surface appears trying to maintain order and peace between the cops and the protesters but in reality is trying to incite riots. Here's one article talking about that.

The locals are starting to get real tired of how the media and these outsiders are exploiting the town for their own gain.
 
2014-08-20 01:09:34 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x346]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x352]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x320]

And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


Can't argue much with this.

HOWEVER

Using this to make the point that US police should be trained differently is a GREAT point

Using this to argue that the particular officers in THIS INCIDENT responded inappropriately is absolute horseshiat
 
2014-08-20 01:10:53 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson


I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.
 
2014-08-20 01:11:07 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: Cyclometh: Now they're trying to corral the media back into their pen.

I hate media being corraled away, but it looks like agitators are targeting the media now as well. And after gunshots, they want media safe. The worst thing that can happen is dead media, the second worst is corralling them away.


They dont want their acts of agitation and escalation on camera.

That way they can blame the police.

Cause whos gonna believe the cops didnt escalate.....
 
2014-08-20 01:11:50 AM  

Negligible: Talk about a cliffhanger... they sure can pick a time to need to change batteries on vice feed, can't they?


Mike Brown Live and Anon are down too
 
2014-08-20 01:11:51 AM  

nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson


Farking morons,  at least agree one where the damn area is before barking out orders.


Hands up!
Get on the ground!
I said hands up!
Get on the ground now!
With your hands up!
 
2014-08-20 01:12:50 AM  
So Vice is down as well as I Am Mike Brown.  So to speak.

Right when it looked horrifying.
 
2014-08-20 01:13:03 AM  
 
2014-08-20 01:13:05 AM  

nyseattitude: Negligible: Talk about a cliffhanger... they sure can pick a time to need to change batteries on vice feed, can't they?

Mike Brown Live and Anon are down too


Didn't realize that at first. Really hating how Livestream seems to restart from the start of recording when livestream ends. At least Youtube auto stops and starts it.
 
2014-08-20 01:16:01 AM  
tim is back!
 
2014-08-20 01:16:15 AM  
Police now opting to encircle the media pen (where the remaining protestors look to have mixed themselves in with).

This is the worst optics yet.
 
2014-08-20 01:16:56 AM  
Tim's feed is back up.
 
2014-08-20 01:17:35 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: nyseattitude: https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly

Ryan J. Reilly @ryanjreilly  · now
"Get that camera out of my farking face." -- officer who pointed gun at protestors#Ferguson

https://twitter.com/AmyKNelson
Amy K. Nelson @AmyKNelson  · 35s
Media being ordered back to media area, cops fighting w each other over which space is media area. #Ferguson

I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.


Agreed.
 
2014-08-20 01:18:23 AM  

wademh:
Everybody seems to love Tim Pool but as I listen to him, I think he's an idiot.
Every time he gives his little recap of events he presents it as this simplistically dichotomous snippet of "reached for the gun" versus "hands up, don't shoot".

I'm thinking adrenalin junky, controversy junky, AW. Drama for the sake of drama with more interest in spectacle than objective reporting! It's a "reality TV" variant of reality. I guess I need another drink.


dvdmedia.ign.com

I think he's taking unreasonable risks to get the story, but that's what reporting used to be all about.

Yes, if he were working with a conventional news network, 99% of what he shoots (and the same goes for IaMB and the MSNBC livefeed) would end up on the cutting room floor in order to get the 90 seconds that actually makes the evening news, but that's the point: it's only in the past 5 years that the average citizen has had access to mulitple raw feeds from current events. It's 20 minutes into the future, every network is Network 23, and everyone is a potential Edison Carter.
Vice is now back up. "Very very strange situation, the police have just put all media into ? press zone. Usually when they do it means they're about to make a move against the protestors. [confused by small number of protestors] [describes water bottle incidents] [protestor runs, gets arrested, crowd surrounds police, "all I heard was run" "everyone breaks" "heard pop" "police circled media area" "ordering us into parking lot" "which seems not a good idea"]

Civilian/Clergyman in T-shirt: "If it was up to me, [everyone could stay] [but things sound like they're kicking off]"
 
2014-08-20 01:18:35 AM  
Oh shiat, here we go.
 
2014-08-20 01:18:39 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Cops should ...or should be trained to grapple, fence, tase, attempt to disarm, or otherwise let a knife wielding asshole within 10 feet of them, have a cat scan, i think you have lost connection with natural realty.

Seems to work fine in the rest of the world:


And those countries have lower crime rates to boot, so the cops apparently are doing their jobs despite not shooting everyone who seems mildly threatening. So are cops in the US incompetent, or are they just a bunch of scared little pussies wearing big-boy uniforms?


Ah but their police are not reduced to pants-wetting children with military fantasies.
 
2014-08-20 01:18:59 AM  

WhyteRaven74: So, what happens if it turns out the guy with the knife was seriously mentally ill and couldn't even grasp what he was doing? Or are we juts declaring open season on mentally ill people cause it's easier that way?


Then we call Obama and ask to use his magic time machine to go back and tell the officers that "it's OK, we are from the future and know that this guy doesn't know what he's doing so there's no way he might actually sever an artery and kill you."  Except of course for the tragic fact that he was certainly mentally-ill but that does not really change anything respective to how he still managed to force the cops hands.'
Matt Dillion, Paladin, Wyatt Earp, Chuck Conners, Brett Maverick and many other Hollywood heroes would have shot the knife out of his hand. Chuck Norris  would have disarmed him, and then killed him.

Nobody thinks that shooting this guy is good but it was apparently forced by the deceased. Sucks for everybody.
 
2014-08-20 01:21:23 AM  

doglover: Boon23834: parasol: Boon23834: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

I haven't read the whole thread, but shouldn't that gun/taser ratio be reversed?

tasers are much more expensive and, in order to carry one,officers have be tased - some of them decline

Um. Then, some officers should go unarmed. With a tool like a taser specifically designed for situations like this as a less lethal option, officers should be required to justify carrying a firearm. You know, something situation ally dependent. Who cares about the cost? Of all the stuff our governments waste money on, an electrically charged device vs. Keeping a service weapon in use, well the costs of range time, ammunition, weapons specialists such as armourers, gunsmiths, trainers, it's gotta be pricey. Something along a British model of having armed officers show up on call, without going full SWAT has to be better all around, cheaper and fewer dead.

Guns are not the X factor in violence.

EVERY cop in Japan has a loaded gun. How many police shootings are there?

The problem with American cops is their toxic culture.


Fair point. Then remove the chief toxic culture enabling tool. The gun.

Let cops figure out how to engage the populace. Work with them. See them as people.

Being a cop has to be extremely difficult, but they're generally from the same cities (yeah... I know that's an assumption) they work. It's obviously in their best interests to have a safe place to live and work. Having them work with a population and use the principles of a minimum amount of force, civil and police cooperation, and flexibility will start at solving some of the systemic issues of their toxic culture and the toxic culture of the criminal elements they deal with on a daily basis.
 
2014-08-20 01:22:25 AM  

jst3p: Jobber8742: Ctrl-Alt-Del: Cyclometh: In regard to the situation in TFA, I don't see how the cops could have easily gotten out of it without using deadly force. The guy was clearly bent on it and once things get past a certain point, it's game on. This was pretty clearly a justifiable, if regrettable, use of force- based on what information we have right now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm just about the libbiest lib around, but I find it mind boggling that people are actually criticizing the cops in this situation. An unpredictable, probably delusional guy wielding a deadly weapon? Yeah, no

This exactly. The police have a right to go home without a stab wound because some psycho pulled knife on them. In a situation like that, you shoot to protect yourself.

I am usually with the "fark the police" crowd but I don't see what they should have done differently here.


Same here, and we'd get labeled boot lickers for saying that.  I find myself agreeing with people who I was arguing with in the other threads, but this was self defense.  I'm guessing most of those people getting pissed at the cops in this circumstance have never seen a person get cut or stabbed with a knife.
 
2014-08-20 01:24:16 AM  

Boon23834: but they're generally from the same cities (yeah... I know that's an assumption)


 Not in this area where every tiny suburb has its own force.  You could have a 5 minute commute to work and be in a different PD's territory.
 
2014-08-20 01:24:22 AM  
Dogs can't be a good idea at all
 
2014-08-20 01:24:28 AM  
K-9 units out? Christ, guys, let's just get out the firehoses and go full Birmingham. Why stop halfway?
 
2014-08-20 01:25:10 AM  
Seriously? K-9's?
 
2014-08-20 01:25:46 AM  
Oh man, someone screaming "Stand your ground" through a bullhorn.
 
2014-08-20 01:26:29 AM  

Lordserb: Threads like these reinforce the fact that America is raising an entire generation of children that view movies and TV as "science" and "reality".

Why didn't the cops just use ninja skills and disarm the person???

lol...for srs guyz...lol


I've often said that Fark is full of basement dwellers who have no idea of how the real world actually works, threads like this prove it.
 
2014-08-20 01:28:03 AM  
"get yeer aaass on dat sidewalk"

lol
 
2014-08-20 01:28:04 AM  
Water bottle thrown. All members with the following item on their person please arrest yourself. cdn5.triplepundit.com

www.rawstory.com
wanted for questioning
 
2014-08-20 01:28:13 AM  
Twilight Farkle:
Yes, if he were working with a conventional news network, 99% of what he shoots (and the same goes for IaMB and the MSNBC livefeed) would end up on the cutting room floor in order to get the 90 seconds that actually makes the evening news

Few people enjoy being edited but, there's a point to editing.  I recognize the attraction of live reporting to feed my "need" to know. But   Veruca Salt and I can actually survive the wait. In the meantime, there's still no legitimate excuse for misleading recaps.
 
2014-08-20 01:28:20 AM  
Hah, I wonder if that hick knows he just went out to more people than live in the greater Saint Louis metro area.

"geet back urp on dat dere saidwahlk rayt enow. Nut gunna tell yew agin."
 
2014-08-20 01:28:20 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.


The last couple of livestream events I've tuned in for were this and Boston, and the phrase "fog of war" ccomes to mind. Look at how long it takes us to figure out what's going on. I'm confused and I have a full-size monitor with three windows open, plus a second monitor with two livestreams open.
Now imagine yourself in the shoes of someone with a badge, a gun, and an audio-only radio that only communicates with the 10-20 people he hangs out with at the office.
 
2014-08-20 01:29:46 AM  
The Russians sure spare no expense for their propaganda department's equipment. That's a fine feed.
 
2014-08-20 01:29:57 AM  
I hope tomorrow Tim brings the equipment with the non-farked up mics.
 
2014-08-20 01:30:33 AM  

nyseattitude: [img.fark.net image 627x680]


"White people think the Michael Brown investigation is going fine"

You know, I am 1) an extremely libby lib and yet nonetheless 2) extremely opposed to (most of) the bullshiat of the current crop of left wing Social Justice Warriors. But holy motherfarking fark! I can understand how my beer swilling Ni**er hating brother in law could think this, but REALLY??!!!
 
2014-08-20 01:32:27 AM  
Why is it that all of the action occurs at night?  Is there any protesting during the day?
I wonder what the police presence is on the main drag during the daylight hours.
 
2014-08-20 01:33:14 AM  

Twilight Farkle: Caffienatedjedi: I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.

The last couple of livestream events I've tuned in for were this and Boston, and the phrase "fog of war" ccomes to mind. Look at how long it takes us to figure out what's going on. I'm confused and I have a full-size monitor with three windows open, plus a second monitor with two livestreams open.
Now imagine yourself in the shoes of someone with a badge, a gun, and an audio-only radio that only communicates with the 10-20 people he hangs out with at the office.


Part of it comes down to the fog of war, but when they shout "I don't care" when they are told "But State troopers told me x" I have an issue. Radio in for confirmation real quick, if possible. Or at least be more respectful about it. I think police conduct has been below standards, and the lack of respect and use of profanity has really undermined their authority. Respect cannot be demanded, it can only be earned. So I respect a lot of the state troopers, and that one guy ordering dispersal that was fun about it. I don't respect the guys using profanity and threats of violence to enforce their authority.
 
2014-08-20 01:33:18 AM  
God, watching the higher-ups sit there and survey the scene- for all the world, they look like a god damn colonel with his majors and captains sucking up while he talks about doctrine.
 
2014-08-20 01:33:45 AM  

12349876: Boon23834: but they're generally from the same cities (yeah... I know that's an assumption)

 Not in this area where every tiny suburb has its own force.  You could have a 5 minute commute to work and be in a different PD's territory.


That sucks. Truly, it removes the investment a police officer should have in their community. I'm running out of ideas, but what about a living incentiveto live and work in the same area? Things have to change. This is brutal. We cannot have a completely us versus them mentality. That's wartime thinking enabled by too many militaristic police chiefs and shaved ape cops trying to subjugate communities and demographics who sometimes do not even have the education to articulate why they feel wronged or explain their sense of injustice.
 
2014-08-20 01:36:07 AM  

JimmySlicings: Why is it that all of the action occurs at night?  Is there any protesting during the day?
I wonder what the police presence is on the main drag during the daylight hours.


The biggest protests are in the daylight, and are peaceful. It's obvious why shiat goes down at night, it's dark.
 
2014-08-20 01:36:25 AM  
Half the media's surrounded a guy who got pepper-sprayed and is being tended to by the field medics.
 
2014-08-20 01:38:13 AM  

wademh: Few people enjoy being edited but, there's a point to editing. I recognize the attraction of live reporting to feed my "need" to know. But Veruca Salt and I can actually survive the wait. In the meantime, there's still no legitimate excuse for misleading recaps.


imokwiththis.jpg

For those who actually value their time (most of us don't because hey, we're punching the F5 button here on Fark!), the media does a reasonably good job of condensing the night's events into a 3-minute segment.

I think Pool's recaps are fine; his audience is composed both of media junkies who watch the livestreams out of the corners of their eyes all night just waiting for shiat to get realthe excuse to punch the Popcorn button on the microwave, but he also has to summarize things for n00bs who just got the URL via some retweet. His recaps are pretty balanced: it started with a shooting, the police say this, the protestors say that.

/totally Veruca Salting my pocorn tonight, guilty as charged.
 
2014-08-20 01:38:42 AM  

Caffienatedjedi: Twilight Farkle: Caffienatedjedi: I find the police disagreeing to be one of the worst things in this all. They are supposed to be an organized force of professionals, but it sounds like they are playing petty power games. the IAMB guy was getting harrassed by local pd one night for following the directions of a state trooper. A lot of contradictory orders are being handed out.

When it comes down to it, the protestors are plagued with out of towners trying to stir up shiat, the Police are stuck with local PD trying to stir up shiat. At least, thats how it looks to me, and only makes it a miracle it isn't worse than it is.

The last couple of livestream events I've tuned in for were this and Boston, and the phrase "fog of war" ccomes to mind. Look at how long it takes us to figure out what's going on. I'm confused and I have a full-size monitor with three windows open, plus a second monitor with two livestreams open.
Now imagine yourself in the shoes of someone with a badge, a gun, and an audio-only radio that only communicates with the 10-20 people he hangs out with at the office.

Part of it comes down to the fog of war, but when they shout "I don't care" when they are told "But State troopers told me x" I have an issue. Radio in for confirmation real quick, if possible. Or at least be more respectful about it. I think police conduct has been below standards, and the lack of respect and use of profanity has really undermined their authority. Respect cannot be demanded, it can only be earned. So I respect a lot of the state troopers, and that one guy ordering dispersal that was fun about it. I don't respect the guys using profanity and threats of violence to enforce their authority.


That is what started this entire situation.