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(NBC News)   St. Louis City Police Chief Sam Dotson sadly gives a lesson in how to handle an officer involved shooting with a direct detailed account of another shooting   (nbcnews.com) divider line 582
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12343 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2014 at 9:16 PM (4 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-19 06:09:25 PM
Yep, that's how you do it


//Boobies
 
2014-08-19 06:16:31 PM
Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.
 
2014-08-19 06:19:55 PM
Let me see what you'll do when you're sent to kill a man
But I'll be damned if I don't take a stand
We ain't goin' out like that
We ain't goin' out like that
"We ain't goin' out!"
We ain't goin' out like that
We ain't goin' out like that
"We ain't goin' out!"
 
2014-08-19 06:21:08 PM
Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?
 
2014-08-19 06:29:16 PM
Recently released dispatcher tapes has police officer asking for a non white officer to respond.
 
2014-08-19 06:30:14 PM

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?


I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms
 
2014-08-19 06:36:46 PM
Suspect: Shoot me now. Just shoot me.
Officer1: Sir, put down the knife. Please put down the knife.
Suspect: Shoot me now. Just shoot me.
Officer2: Please sir, we're warning you. Put down the knife.
Suspect: Just shoot me. Just shoot.
Officer1 & 2: Crappola. Can we shoot ourselves instead?

 
2014-08-19 06:48:01 PM

cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms


Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.
 
2014-08-19 07:03:52 PM
I don't think St. Louis City cops generally carry tasers.
 
2014-08-19 08:02:32 PM
Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.
 
2014-08-19 08:04:47 PM

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


I got shot at for cutting in line in front of a cop at McDonalds this morning, then when I complained the departments military handyman down TANK raped my cat.  This shiat is just getting ridiculous.

Lets do this thing buddy. Do you have a catchy chant we can use?  We will both go scream it out the window for 5 minutes and then we will see real change.
 
2014-08-19 08:13:05 PM

Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.


He looked like he was on something. Toxicology tests will show he had monster energy and could not be subdued by mere flashlights.
 
2014-08-19 08:29:38 PM

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?

 
2014-08-19 08:33:04 PM

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


If you are close enough to "break the arm holding the knife," the guy holding the knife is close enough to kill you  with the knife.
 
2014-08-19 08:52:23 PM
This sounds justified, at least from the facts already out.

Horrible timing, however.
 
2014-08-19 09:03:09 PM

Litterbox: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?


Tasers are supposed to be a substitute for deadly force. Though I've been hearing not all cops have tasers, so its possible they didn't have that option.
 
2014-08-19 09:19:24 PM
Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.
 
2014-08-19 09:21:03 PM
I mean, shiat, you had to have gone through some sort of training to even make it onto the force, right? Surely they taught you better ways of handling yourselves. Christ.
 
2014-08-19 09:22:01 PM
No silliness here

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-08-19 09:22:39 PM

cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms


Same here if i could remember(Chicago), the white shirts have tasers
 
2014-08-19 09:22:57 PM
Sure, they could have tried to subdue a man with a knife using less than lethal force like a taser or OC spray. Sure that might have been prudent considering the on-going demonstrations. But what if the man was secretly a ninja who was about to flip out on them? Better just to shoot.
 
2014-08-19 09:24:14 PM
Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound
 
2014-08-19 09:24:21 PM
Well the guy got what he wanted I guess.  If what the officers say is true.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:07 PM
What happened to tasers? Do they only use those on handcuffed autistic children? A wacko with a knife is the reason tasers were invented.
Or so we were told.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:23 PM
Can we just take the local cops' guns away and give them tasers till this shiat is over? Even if the guy had a knife and was being threatening, shooting people at this point is only making it worse.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:36 PM
Suicide by cop in the worst possible area, at the worst possible time.
 
2014-08-19 09:25:55 PM

Litterbox: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy.

Wielding a knife is deadly force.  Tasers are not used when the officer is facing deadly force.  Thats when the gun comes out.  Didn't they cover that on "CSI" or whatever cop show you were watching?


On Cops I saw them take down a guy with a samurai sword with an aluminum ladder.  They used it to pin him against the wall and then walk up and take his shiat.

Not saying that would work here, but sometimes you don't need to shoot people, even when they're armed.
 
2014-08-19 09:26:28 PM

Uncle Eazy: I don't think St. Louis City cops generally carry tasers.


They do.  I had to do a ride along with one a few years ago.
 
2014-08-19 09:26:47 PM

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


Rush Limbaugh already cracked the case, it's because Obama is distracting us from Benghazi.

So, yes, conspiracy.

http://m.fark.com/comments/8380584
 
2014-08-19 09:26:59 PM

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


Tasers are an alternative to talking, shooting is an alternative to tasers.
 
2014-08-19 09:27:15 PM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Sure, they could have tried to subdue a man with a knife using less than lethal force like a taser or OC spray. Sure that might have been prudent considering the on-going demonstrations. But what if the man was secretly a ninja who was about to flip out on them? Better just to shoot.



They tried the least lethal force of all: verbal commands.
 
2014-08-19 09:27:59 PM

Bazzlex001: Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound


Shooting to wound is never standard procedure, and is frankly a foolish one.

Limbs are harder to hit, so you are way more likely to miss and possibly hit someone in the background

and even if you do hit a limb, they have arteries that can cause you to bleed out within minutes if pierced.

Standard procedure in every organisation that uses guns is shoot to stop/kill. Once you fire that gun, you keep shooting until they are no longer able to pose a threat.

So once they committed to lethal force, they had to stick to it. It is unfortunate they did not, or could not, have pursued a less lethal or non-lethal approach.
 
2014-08-19 09:28:04 PM
Also, this is as good a place as any to drop this:  http://nikaharper.tumblr.com/post/95062141305/proud

"My grandfather is a retired LAPD officer. His badge is heavy, I've held it in my child hands.
He lives in Downey CA, which if you don't know, stopped being such a nice place as the 70's era houses suggest. About 15 years ago, he heard someone stealing his car from the driveway.
It was an Oldsmobile Toronado, old thing, boat-like car that we laughed at. Ash trays in the arm rests, remember those? This car was all of it. It was a joyride waiting to happen.
My grandpa gets his gun and goes outside, to see the car backing up into the road. Unfortunately, the driver went the wrong way towards a cul-de-sac, and had to double back. My grandpa, pistol in hand, walks into the street and points the gun at the car as it comes back down the street.
The car was not going to stop. He jumped out of the way.
We asked him, "You caught someone stealing your car, why didn't you shoot?"
He replied, "I didn't keep my badge for 30 years by shooting people." "
 
2014-08-19 09:29:06 PM

Captain Darling: They tried the least lethal force of all: verbal commands


So the escalation of force goes straight from verbal commands to bullets? Seems legit.
 
2014-08-19 09:30:46 PM
Beanbag guns?  Net Guns? Rubber bullets?  High-Velocity Earplugs?
 
2014-08-19 09:32:08 PM

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.


The My Little Pony Killer: Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.


I'd like to know what size the knife is.

But 4 feet isn't much space for the officers,  and if they didn't have tasers well then bullets it is then because that's pretty close for someone to a cop with a knife.
 
2014-08-19 09:33:49 PM

Boo_Guy: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.

We use drones to kill 'suspects' in other countries. 'Lethal response' seems to be OK here, since nobody biatched when we did it there.

The next red light you run could be a death sentence.

The My Little Pony Killer: Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.

I'd like to know what size the knife is.

But 4 feet isn't much space for the officers,  and if they didn't have tasers well then bullets it is then because that's pretty close for someone to a cop with a knife.


A gun is not the only choice they had in this situation, it was simply the most convenient for them.

If they didn't have tasers then that's a HUGE oversight on their part and needs to be corrected.

They are doing this so very wrong, and only digging the hole deeper with every action they take.
 
2014-08-19 09:34:00 PM
Transparency goes a long way to helping calm things down.

I would love it if they treated police like pilots. Oh, you had a lethal use of force incident? First things first, lets run a full toxicology on you to make sure you weren't policing while impaired. Then, let's have an outside, impartial body investigate the incident (having your force investigate you is like American Air investigating an American Air crash). And finally, issue an open report that explains what went wrong, and if any improvements can be made (FAA/NTSB style).

Transparency and accountability. Not much to ask from people who are entrusted with lethal weapons by the state.

/All indications are this was justified, but an open report could help confirm it.
 
2014-08-19 09:34:10 PM

Bazzlex001: Whatever happened to just shooting a guy in the leg? At least TRY for a non-lethal wound


If you are going to shoot you never aim for anything but center mass and never for anything other than to stop, which typically means kill.. Aiming for the leg of a moving person is difficult and chances are you will miss and then he will be on you with the knife. Not saying they should have tried non lethal force. But shooting anything other than center mass is never a good idea.
 
2014-08-19 09:34:12 PM

Pocket Ninja: Yes. The intelligent response here is to wonder why police officers didn't team up and use their flashlights or billy clubs to disarm a knife-wielding suspect.


Police are trained how to disarm a suspect. In this situation there were 2 cops and 1 apparently delusional suspect.

If I were the cops I would set up a containment perimeter, call for immediate reinforcement, sit in the car and begin writing my report. So what if the delusional suspect steps away? How far can a delusional person go in 5 minutes that killing him is the best police response?
 
2014-08-19 09:35:04 PM
Sadly there is no money left in their budget for tasers. Those tanks, cool camo, body armor, and endless supply of tear gas/smoke grenades are not cheap. Besides who signs up to use non lethal force when you got this cool gun?
 
2014-08-19 09:35:24 PM

ginandbacon: Jaysus.

It has to be every good cop's nightmare to have an encounter like this. Poor everybody involved.


Yeah people act like cops enjoy it, the two that I know that shot people still have nightmares about it and wonder if they did the right thing.

Also was the whole cop had a broken eye socket bullshiat or are people ignoring that point?
 
2014-08-19 09:35:29 PM

dionysusaur: Beanbag guns?  Net Guns? Rubber bullets?  High-Velocity Earplugs?


150: I will provide funding and research to develop tactical and strategic weapons covering a full range of needs so my choices are not limited to "hand to hand combat with swords" and "blow up the planet".

The Ferguson police did not read the Evil Overlord list.
 
2014-08-19 09:35:46 PM

firefly212: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?

Tasers are an alternative to talking, shooting is an alternative to tasers.


So you are saying instead of talking just shoot?
 
2014-08-19 09:36:32 PM

jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

What the f*ck is wrong with these cops? Is there an interest on the part of some cops to CREATE a riot? Are they completely stupid, or should we be investigating a conspiracy?


Tasers are a courtesy.
 
2014-08-19 09:38:11 PM

jasonvatch: I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.


dude fark right off
 
2014-08-19 09:38:38 PM

dstrick44: What happened to tasers? Do they only use those on handcuffed autistic children? A wacko with a knife is the reason tasers were invented.
Or so we were told.


When all you have is a hammer...
 
2014-08-19 09:39:08 PM

jasonvatch: cretinbob: jasonvatch: Don't they have tasers?

I don't know about there, but here, generally no. You'll have one officer/deputy who carries one and the rest just have regular sidearms

Nightsticks? Flashlights?

I admit that I wouldn't want to take on a knife-wielding idiot with a nightstick. But two cops? I suspect they received some training in the past - and the baton has enough reach and mass to break the arm holding the knife.


No.  You attack a gun, the gun is going to be what responds. Sorry. Do not pass go, do not collect your food stamps.
 
2014-08-19 09:40:31 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: Just because somebody is telling you to shoot them doesn't make that the correct choice. You could have taken him, alive, and with minimal injuries to your own force had you not been so damn lazy.


It's easy to armchair but I do think it's a cop's job to get home alive to his family. It's all well and good to say you can take a knife wound, and most of the time you can, but then there's those dang arteries. Or, they could have not waited until he got so close and shot him in the leg, unless that didn't stop him and then they would have incited him to attack them by shooting, etc.

But the contrast in how to handle a shooting is interesting. Quickly bring in supervisors who take charge. Get clear statements from shooters and witnesses. Communicate quickly and transparently to all parties. Here's a second interview after speaking to the press. He's speaking to local residents.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-chants-heard-st-louis-cops-shoot-s us pect/story?id=25041218

As sad as this "suicide by cop" of a likely mentally-ill man is, I hope lessons can be learned in how to communicate when undesirable situations arise. I saw an additional video but can't recover the link. It showed Dotson walking into a hostile crowd and repeating his story. There were people interrupting and shouting Ferguson but most people were shushing the shouters to hear what he had to say. You could read their faces. They were very upset, angry, but listening and reluctantly understanding that the cops probably had no real choice. And Dotson was not covering up anything. It is an incredible lesson in contrast.
 
2014-08-19 09:40:42 PM

SilentStrider: This sounds justified, at least from the facts already out.

Horrible timing, however.


From the report I heard, they waited until he was within 3 or 4 feet before opening fire. That's actually too cautious, I think.
 
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