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(CNN)   Moron from Australia captured while fighting for the Taliban.   (cnn.com ) divider line
    More: Followup  
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6536 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Dec 2001 at 10:38 AM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



167 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2001-12-12 10:42:06 AM  
Well, at least it's not an exclusive club. boobies.
 
2001-12-12 10:45:16 AM  
he should be tar'd and feathered on national tv
 
2001-12-12 10:45:23 AM  
A terrorist is a terrorist. Dont care if they're from Austrailia or Yemen or Kansas City.
 
2001-12-12 10:46:13 AM  
Who knew the Taliban was so inclusive?
 
2001-12-12 10:48:38 AM  
They certainly seem to have been an equal opportunity employer (well apart from the hating all women thing)
 
2001-12-12 10:48:56 AM  
good news for harmonia.
 
2001-12-12 10:55:20 AM  
Put a hook thru 'em and use as Great White Shark bait.
Film it and let's see it on Wide World of Sports.
 
2001-12-12 10:56:04 AM  
And put it on slayers site

http://www.igetoffonwatchingtorture.com
 
2001-12-12 10:56:17 AM  
He's South Australian...it figures.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 10:56:23 AM  
Harmonia,

This is your chance to sign up and do something with your life!!! You can turn all that US hate into something tangible. Go, the Taliban will accept you. Go I say! For the good of the world!
 
2001-12-12 10:56:25 AM  
Well now that guy from the US can have a buddy to play with in jail. Checkers or something. Of course, that's when guys like Bubba and Big Steve are done playing with them for the day.
 
2001-12-12 10:59:04 AM  
So would Australia consider this treasonous?
 
2001-12-12 10:59:12 AM  
This Aussie and home-grown Walker should be left to the tender mercies of the Afghan government.
Interim prime minister Hamid Karzai has stated that "the foreigners who are here are terrorists, and their hands are soiled with the blood of the people of Afghanistan."
These two are foreigners that were voluntarily and actively engaged in a theocratic dictatorship that oppressed and murdered Afghanis. Let the Afghanis have them.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:02:22 AM  
Overpaid Slacker,

No. Let the Afghanis have the Australian. Save the American for the New Yorkers. Throw him to the mob.
 
2001-12-12 11:06:08 AM  
Poor Fb bot v2.1 he is repeating himself again.

perhaps he needs to be rebooted.

Its easy to spot when it becopmes unstable, multiple exclamation marks.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:09:34 AM  
Harmonia,

Why are you afraid to go? Are your ideals not important enough to stand up for, or are you just a coward?

The resistance movement needs your help and you leave them to be slaughtered by the Americans. That is sad to turn your back on your terrorist friends.
 
2001-12-12 11:13:41 AM  
I hope they ask this guy about the supposed Phase II attack due in the U.S. after Sunday. It'd be interesting to hear what he says.
 
2001-12-12 11:14:36 AM  
FB- get it right...they're 'freedom fighters.' Sheesh...some people...
 
2001-12-12 11:22:04 AM  
Next they'll be finding some Scottish Taliban who were fighting against....oh, wait, the Scots dont fight. They just sit around and spark off on there pc's. Eh, Harmonia?
 
2001-12-12 11:22:09 AM  
Fb-: OK, but not the liberal Manhattanites, who would smother him with therapy and praise -- let's drop this MF in the South Bronx.
 
jph
2001-12-12 11:24:12 AM  
Well, I know one thing...John Walker will never be able to safely walk the streets in the USA. They can execute him or imprison him, but if he survives either of those possibilities, he's as good as dead. This Australian guy might not be in as much danger, but it's probably not far off.
 
2001-12-12 11:24:30 AM  
"Why are you afraid to go? Are your ideals not important enough to stand up for, or are you just a coward? "

Well I did my bit in Genoa, I only fight for causes I believe in Im afriad fb bot v2.1, not got that sticky exclamation mark key sorted yet?
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:24:45 AM  
Skwidd,

Yeah, Harmonia and his army anti-globalization terrorists are doing a fine job of overthrowing all capitalist countries.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Not.
 
2001-12-12 11:28:06 AM  
Sh*t now you have a sticky B, W and H key

what have you been doing to that poor keyboard?
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:28:26 AM  
Harmonia,

Did your bit in Genoa?!?! Pfft, you guys were nothing but terrorists, cowards and hypocrites. You went over there for a "peacful" protest and ended up attacking civilians and destroying homes and businesses so you could try to terrorize people into condeming capitalism.

Weak.
 
2001-12-12 11:28:36 AM  
For the life of me, I can't figure out the appeal to foreigners, (to non-Arabs, specifically, not Lou Graham) of joining the Taliban/al-Qaeda. Can someone please explain?
 
2001-12-12 11:29:07 AM  
England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the U.S., Canada, Australia, NZlnd...

c'mon...show us your Taliban
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:29:39 AM  
Icepick,

I think I can. You take Harmonia's ideals and beliefs, add a backbone, and you get foreign taliban/al qaeda fighters.
 
2001-12-12 11:30:41 AM  
So lets summerise Mr Sticky keys.

Dont do anything=coward
Fight for what you believe in=coward
propose unpopular opinions=coward
Disagree with me=terrorist

Sad sad sad little man.
 
2001-12-12 11:32:26 AM  
Notice how these guys (american and aussie) are said to "provide useful information"

This is propaganda for the "next" time when some terrorist group considers allowing outsiders in their ranks.

... "you are an american? you want to join us? Okay, sit down right there".....POP POP POP goes the AK
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:33:08 AM  
Harmonia,

Spout off about your ideals and condem others while doing nothing to further those ideals = coward

Attack civilians, try to murder police and destroy homes and businesses to try to scare people away from capitalism = coward and terrorist

Unsubstantiated, wildly biased opinions = idiot

Disagree with me = get crushed like a flea

Hope I cleared that up.
 
2001-12-12 11:33:23 AM  
I have figured it out! Chicks in Burqas are HOT! and nothing turns them on like a zealot with and accent and an AK
 
2001-12-12 11:34:22 AM  
Im not a muslim Fb, not likely to support the Taleban now am I.

Crushed like a flea? pray tell how exactly mr sticky keys
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:35:34 AM  
Skwidd,

You should get Harmonia to autograph his portrait.
 
2001-12-12 11:37:02 AM  
Harmonia --
Before the self-righteousness gets too deep, check Kendra Okonski's piece in WSJ of 8/14 entitled "Riots Inc." that detail the enormous international finances behind these "grassroots" protests in Genoa and elsewhere.
There is no umbrella ideology; the antiglobalization business is a coalition of convenience between socialist foundation-, union- and eurogovernment-funded entities to further their agendas. Agendas, incidentally that fear a borderless world b/c the dynamics of such a world hasten Darwinian irrelevance of unions and eurocracies.
 
2001-12-12 11:42:32 AM  
Overpaid Slacker & FB-

Either one sounds good to me, where do I place my vote?
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:43:39 AM  
DRat,

Wait until I finish hollowing out Harmonia's skull, we will put the votes in there. Oh wait, already empty!
 
2001-12-12 11:43:44 AM  
Yeah, what he said!
 
2001-12-12 11:46:25 AM  
Hey troll...I mean, Fb,
Where did you obtain the authority to agrue Harmonia's courswe of action? Can you substantiate anything, you've said, with any type of quote from harmonia? Or are you just doing this to belittle some one because they have different views than you (and all views which you don't espouse must be the views that lead to terrorism)?

This is like hanging out a grade school... "you...you.. you have cooties... and you're a Taliban supporter...so take that"
 
2001-12-12 11:48:09 AM  
I am with Overpaid Slacker. Umbrella ideology, eurogovernment-funded, Darwinian irrelevance, eurocracies, God Damb all that stuff sounds snappy.
 
2001-12-12 11:48:53 AM  
Its cool that the taliban are secular enough to accept any nationality and race. Too bad about hating women and other human right abuses.

Besides there is a difference between ex-US sponsored taliban and al-queda. Taliban is just pustun people in a civil war, while the al-queda is international terrorist org.
 
2001-12-12 11:48:54 AM  
only missing one idiot now
 
2001-12-12 11:51:29 AM  
oooh the Wall St journal, cant argue with that. I mean its well known for its sympathetic coverage of radical movements.

Well funded? er dont think so m8.

As for the Socialists being involved, Guilty as I am a socialist. However the anti-capitalist movement is far bigger than just us.
 
2001-12-12 11:52:36 AM  
Although execution of Bin Laden team members
seems to be a natural and popular sentiment, wouldn't permanent imprisonment be a more offensive punishment for individuals with their type of mindset?


They're actively seeking death and whatever glorious crap they're expecting on the other side. Give em their remaining ~50-60 year lifespan in the usual 23 hour/day solitary confinment.


The death penalty is often considered the ultimate sentence when it is really a less than adequate punishment than is often deserved. Its removes the ability of the convicted to realize/experience a lifetime of not living just existing.


This guy will probably get neither.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:53:36 AM  
Harmonia,

oooh the Wall St journal, cant argue with that. I mean its well known for its sympathetic coverage of radical movements.

Why would you want 'sympathetic' coverage!?!?! I want unbiased reporting, not leftist 'sympathetic' propaganda when I evaluate a situation!?!?!

No wonder you are brain washed.
 
2001-12-12 11:55:02 AM  
Er, sticky keys problem getting worse now affecting !, and ?

Why should I worry what the WSJ has to say, I was there guys I saw what happened with my own two eyes.

But of course you know better as you have the WSJ and CNN.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 11:58:05 AM  
OHHH OHHH!!! HE SIGNED IT!! I can't believe it!! I got Harmonia's picture autographed! I'm going to cherish this forever!! Jihad!!

[image from mediaservice.photoisland.com too old to be available]
 
2001-12-12 11:58:47 AM  
Well thats work over for another day

Byeeeeee all

cu tomorrow!
 
2001-12-12 12:03:04 PM  
Hey, I heard that the Dead Kennedys are going to reunite and re-record "I Kill Children" only with a little twist, they are changing the title and chorus to "I Kill Afghanastan Children" with all proceeds going to the "Skin Alive the FARK Vermin" foundation or you can donate to
www.HarmoniaStickADickInYourMouthAndShutUp.com

Thank You
 
2001-12-12 12:05:31 PM  
Hehe.. i first read that as "Mormon joins taliban". Now that would be cool.
 
2001-12-12 12:05:48 PM  
Thank god they haven't found any female Taliban recruits from other nations. Oh, wait, they won't! Funny how all the guys get into huge flames over which-side-is-right-because-I-read-this-or-that, while the female population of the world has little problem deciding that any group that ashames and oppresses women in the name of a higher power is just fruitloops. You menfolk keep on keepin' on with your pro- and con- arguements - I'm anti-Taliban - and also pro-choice and pro-equal rights.
 
2001-12-12 12:06:33 PM  
disHarmonia,

Since you are a socialist, tell us about it. Why are you a socialist? Why is it better than other forms of government like Captialism? I'm not farking around. I really want to hear from you on this?
 
2001-12-12 12:09:29 PM  
Fb- ,
I'm sorry to hear that you think the Wall street journal is an unbiased news source.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 12:12:26 PM  
Punkr10426,

Never said that. I said, it's sad that Harmonia only considers news sources credible if and only if they are "sympathetic" to his cause. Read it again.
 
2001-12-12 12:13:07 PM  
Harmonia --
I'm not saying you should "worry," but maybe you should be looking at sources that aren't necessarily sympathetic to yours. This is something conservatives have to do every day, so we're used to it.
If you participate in these events and support these causes for ideological reasons, why not read a two-page article that takes a dispassionate view? What happened there is only a small piece of information. What funded and allowed what happened there to happen is more relevant. Is information such a threat?
If you won't evaluate your causes and motivations critically, then you're keeping Fb- in business.
 
2001-12-12 12:17:36 PM  
Fb-..never argue with idiots...you know the rest....
 
2001-12-12 12:22:37 PM  
Capigula,
Since Harmonia is not around, I'll feild this one. The ideals socialism as an economic system lie mostly in a few key ideas.
1. Socialism will level the playing field, so to speak. By removing the different social classes and putting every one at an equal level, people will no longer have their lives set before they are even born (no one will be born gauranteed riches and no one will be born gauranteed poverty).
2. Socialism will provide for the people greater than the capitalist system (through higher wages, etc) because there will be corporations skimming the profits off the top and leaving little for the workers.
3. Socialism needs to go hand and hand with democracy (we've all seen the failure of attempts to institute socialism against the will of the people). This will provide the people some control over what goods they want produced.
4. Prices under socialism will no longer be determined by "how much can I gouge without losing all of my customers." Instead, the prices will be set by the actual costs to manufacture the product and pay the workers well.

I'm sure that there's more stuff that i left out, but that's klinda m take on it.
 
2001-12-12 12:25:40 PM  
Fb-, my apologies. From the wording, it seemed that you were saying the WSJ was an unbiased source.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 12:26:14 PM  
Punkr10426,

Hypotheticals of socialism are very far removed from the realism of practiced(read forced) socialism. Just ask communism.
 
2001-12-12 12:27:59 PM  
Punkr10426: You have done a better job mocking Socialism than I've seen in a while. Kudos.
Add: Socialism's goal is to normalize -- to pull everybody to the middle. What is left out of the explanation is that, while you pull the poor/dumb/disadvantaged up for no reason or merit, you mash the rich/smart/titled down for no reason or merit.
So, monkey-shaving retards make (not "earn") as much money and have the same lifestyle as [fill in name of your favorite genius]. Guess which group will find this most appealing.
 
2001-12-12 12:30:40 PM  
"...maybe you should be looking at sources that aren't necessarily sympathetic to yours. This is something conservatives have to do every day, so we're used to it."

Oh, yes. Rush Limbaugh, G. Gordon Liddy, et al.

http://www.fair.org/reports/journalist-survey.html#conclusion
 
2001-12-12 12:30:40 PM  
Can't wait till a Canadian is found among the Taliban forces. We'll give him a "distinct society" recognition, provide him a cache of government lawyers prepared to spend untold millions of our tax dollars to defend his rights to express his participation as "cultural diversity" and prevent his extradition to any country to face a court of law because it would violate his rights and freedoms.

Eh, I can see it all happening now.... and Barbara Streisand's in that premonition somewhere too....
 
2001-12-12 12:31:38 PM  
I agree that hypotheticals and realities are quite different. That is the case with every system. Capitalism and socialism both look better as hypothetical models. The instituation of either system must be supported by the people. That is why the soviet system was really bad with human rights. If a socialist system is to be successful, it must have democracy strongly established first.
 
2001-12-12 12:33:56 PM  
Punkr10426: Where is the motivation for success? Why would i, as a member of a socialist regime, want to bust my a$$ so that others could benefit. I would be more prone to do just enough to keep others off of my back. See you in the trenches, comrade.
 
2001-12-12 12:33:56 PM  
Punkr10426: Where is the motivation for success? Why would i, as a member of a socialist regime, want to bust my a$$ so that others could benefit. I would be more prone to do just enough to keep others off of my back. See you in the trenches, comrade.
 
43%
2001-12-12 12:34:41 PM  
The attorney-general declined to say if the man was a Muslim, although radio reports in Australia say the man is a convert to Islam.

Nope, he's farking jewish.

Ya know, i wonder if it is ok to assume certain obvious things anymore, or does making the assumption that a person fighting for the taliban is muslim make you a racist. I mean, come on, the taliban want kill non-muslims. I think it is safe to assume someone fighting with them is a muslim.
 
2001-12-12 12:34:42 PM  
Punkr10426 - Do you feel that Socialism will work the way you described it if implemented in the real world or for it to work the way you say does it require ideal conditions?
 
2001-12-12 12:35:36 PM  
Punkr10426: I don't see that communism works even theoretically, the smart and the strong will always strive to be better, to create new things blah blah blah, to be happy and not just work for 'society'(whatever the hell that means)

whereas i believe that capitalism is consistent with our basic human instincts of survival, curiosity etc.
 
2001-12-12 12:35:47 PM  
Sorry for the secondary post. But, also, who would head up these corporations that are not allowed to "skim". Again no motivation for accepting the increased responsiblity.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 12:37:59 PM  
Henchman,

Ohhh a ultra-leftist organization writes an online paper to descredit ultra-right reporters.

Am I the only one that laughs at the hypocrisy?
 
2001-12-12 12:40:08 PM  
Overpaid Slacker: So i see you're working on assumptions. Tell me where did you hear that everyone in a socialist system is paid the same ammount? Where did you get the idea that under our current system the startes or hardest working people are paid the most? Last I recall, my mother (who has a masters in thermo-mechanical engineering and is quardralingual) gets paid less than most garbagemen because the pay gap for female engineers is one of the largest. Is that a good example of how the capitalist system benefits the smartest or hardest working? Your short-sightedness has done more to show the baseless arguments for capitallism than anything I could say.
 
2001-12-12 12:42:15 PM  
Punkr10426: I bet you the garbageman is in a union...doesn't really qualify as an argument against capitalism...
 
fb-
2001-12-12 12:43:04 PM  
Punkr10426,

Sounds like she was free to make a decision in a capitalist system and she farked up big time. You can't do what you like or what you think you are good at and demand that people give you money in a capitalist system.
 
2001-12-12 12:43:33 PM  
I think the best comparison of Socialism vs. Capitalism is post WWII Germany. Capitalism was implemented in West Germany and Socialism in East Germany. Karl Marx himself felt the industrious Germans would be the best population to attempt Socialism as a politico-economic system. I think the resulting economic conditions speak for themselves. The common man in the East, the very person Socialism was supposed to help, sank into grinding poverty for the most part while his counter part in the West did much better on average.
 
2001-12-12 12:44:17 PM  
Henchman -- There are conservative alternatives, but just that, alternatives, and by no means mainstream. Rush (or O'Reilly, etc.) is rarely mentioned by mainstream sources without the "conservative" or "ultra-conservative" label. No labels for Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, NYT, WP, USAToday, Boston Globe, etc. etc. etc. For mainstream news (as opposed to commentary), the sources are not necessarily sympathetic to conservative viewpoints. Which is fine with me. All I meant was that when a source is cited or forwared which is outside the mainstream liberal canon, it's immediately dismissed on the basis of its agenda or its "sympathies." Which conveniently avoids the discussion of the point at issue on its own merits.
 
2001-12-12 12:46:43 PM  
I'm going to say this once more- pay is not necessarily equivalent in a socialist system (there's the motivation Icepick). For an example of how the capitalist system is benefitting the smartest and most intelligent see my above post. As for busting your ass. Why would you do that now. Do you see anything in terms of how much the company benefits from overworking you? I have yet to meet anyone with any such luck.
 
2001-12-12 12:49:03 PM  
Fb-, se the part about the pay gap. So she farked up by being female? The garbage man was just an example - I could've used a bunch of other jobs - that's just the one that popped into my head.
 
2001-12-12 12:49:46 PM  
You've just made my argument, Punkr10246. Your mother's situation is unfair, and would be the norm under socialism. Which would disincentivize bright people to become educated and to create/develop/improve. If you want to disagree about the means to the normalizing ("pay"), that's frosting. USSR provides us the great socialism example, and, while some pigs were more equal than others, the "pay" (and lifestyle, which I mentioned) were the foci of equalization -- b/c it's so easily quantifyable.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 12:50:56 PM  
Punkr10426,

You are telling me that my company doesn't benefit from me working harder, nor do I?!?!


Puuuhhhhh-farking-leeeezeee
 
2001-12-12 12:53:58 PM  
At risk of getting on your wrong side, your argument is sound, but you don't need to be patronizing towards Punkr10426, it's not like he/shes's that harmonia idiot.
 
Eli
2001-12-12 01:05:06 PM  
Punkr10426 So why are you going to medical school then? What's the benefit?
 
2001-12-12 01:05:56 PM  
Punkr10426 - This is a repost;

"I think the best comparison of Socialism vs. Capitalism is post WWII Germany. Capitalism was implemented in West Germany and Socialism in East Germany. Karl Marx himself felt the industrious Germans would be the best population to attempt Socialism as a politico-economic system. I think the resulting economic conditions speak for themselves. The common man in the East, the very person Socialism was supposed to help, sank into grinding poverty for the most part while his counter part in the West did much better on average."

What is your response to this?
 
2001-12-12 01:10:34 PM  
OverpaidSlacker: please tell me more about Soviet economics and how my mother would've been horribly screwed under that system. Don't bother trying to tie this into the Soviet analogy - when she worked for the Soviet Union, she was paid better and given better work opportunities. The only reason why she immigrated was because of my dad - before anyone chimes in with "well, wh did she move here then?"

Fb - your company benfits, they get more money. How much of that goes back to you?
 
2001-12-12 01:10:47 PM  
Australia must pay for this.

Send us your women.
 
2001-12-12 01:14:10 PM  
Punkr10426: i may be in the same position as Fb-, when i work hard, my company does well, i don't get that much back.....but if i don't like it i can quit and go do something else. It's my choice.
 
Eli
2001-12-12 01:17:22 PM  
Something sounds fishy in Punkr10426's story. Real fishy in fact. I have a feeling his mother is an ill-tempered babushka or something. We've got a Russian guy here who's making 20k a month and his wife makes much much more than that, so Punkr's little anecdote is incidental.

How about the fact that Jews are not allowed to have citizenship in Russia, now or when it was the Soviet Union?
 
2001-12-12 01:17:41 PM  
My response is that the Germans did not ask for socialism but had it thrust upon them. Additionally, the Russians were very vindictive conquerors. They dissassembled factories in Germany and had the machines shipped to the USSR. Their whole bit was to use Germany as a buffer and not let them advance for fear of a strengthened Germany. The Soviet system wasn't very big on human rights.

Eli - I sure as hell don't want to go for the money. Would you trust you're life to some one who is only in it for the cash? I just am very interested in the biological sciences, especially pertaining to the systems in the human body. I'd like to work with the poor anyways, so It's not like I'll be seeing much money.
 
2001-12-12 01:18:42 PM  
Sounds like another episode of croc-o-crap hunter is being established. . .

you are all tree-hugging terrorists
not me! I'm too nice to kill people
if you don't kill people you are a tree-hugging terrorist, and a coward
bwah, the capitalists are being mean to me


Interesting, so many troll posts to read, so little time.
 
2001-12-12 01:22:04 PM  
Punkr10426 - OK then let's move beyond the German borders. The extraordinary prosperity achieved by capitalist systems over the course of the 1800 and 1900s is a matter of historical record. Can you say the same of Socialism or come up with even a few examples of socialist countries with a high standard of living?
 
2001-12-12 01:25:57 PM  
The soviet system had all sorts of problems - I am in no way defending their widespread rascism, abuse of authority, lack of human rights, or exploitment of agriculture laborers(they weren't always looking out for the worker). Overall, the soviets had too many farked up problems. However, I just wanted to point out that the system that we so often vilinize as pure evil had some (key word - some) good things that are absent in our own system. They provided a free college education, got rid of gender-biases that control employment, and had free health care to everyone.
 
2001-12-12 01:27:49 PM  
It is my understanding of socialism that under a socialist government, the citizens become the property of the government. That the government tells them how much education they can have, what job they can get, how much they get paid, how many children they can have, and so forth. It doesn't seem to be a system where you have any say about anything in your life. It seems to be a system in which you are a commodity to be used up and then cast off.

I can't think of any socialist or communist country that has ever existed for very long with out descending into poverty and slavery.

But hey, I suppose the entire nation descending into poverty and slavery is better than capitalists making a few bucks off of the investments that they took a risk on.
 
2001-12-12 01:29:44 PM  
Punkr10426 -- You may feel beseiged at the moment, but you don't need to radically mischaracterize others' statements. All I said was that such unfair situations would be the norm -- as in the most common occurrence. They occur under capitalism as well, but in fewer instances and the aggrieved have more opportunities to change their circumstances. The entirety of your last post to me was an attempt to puncture political-economic debates by using your mom? Strange tactic.
Whatever your mother's particular situation (or your characterization of it) socialism seeks to elevate the "meek" at the expense of others, it is zero sum.

Take my earlier post:
"Add: Socialism's goal is to normalize -- to pull everybody to the middle. What is left out of the explanation is that, while you pull the poor/dumb/disadvantaged up for no reason or merit, you mash the rich/smart/titled down for no reason or merit. So, monkey-shaving retards make (not "earn") as much money and have the same lifestyle as [fill in name of your favorite genius]. Guess which group will find this most appealing."

And delete "make (not "earn") as much money and" -- once we've removed the actual money, where is the error?
 
fb-
2001-12-12 01:30:15 PM  
US B-1 bomber was just shot down over the Indian Ocean.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 01:31:49 PM  
Punkr10426,

A lot of it. I make good money.
 
2001-12-12 01:34:19 PM  
Suicideboy: Socialism is an economic system. Pretty much, everything you used to define socialism is... well, I don't know what it is - but it really has nothing to do with socialism. As for the systems we've seen attempt a socialist economy - their humanitarian situation was a result of totalitarianism. Like i said, nothing to do with socialism.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 01:37:36 PM  
I love listening to the lunacy of the %0.1 of the country that makes up the fanatical socialist party.
 
2001-12-12 01:41:54 PM  
According to dictionary.com:
socialism:
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans
and controls the economy.

You control the economy, you control the society. Socialism naturally gravitates towards totalitarianism as the ambitious take power and begin to destroy all those who oppose them. Communism in Russia began with the best of socialist intentions, yet became a totalitarian hellhole because a socialist system gives more power to the central government.

It is my opinion that in practice, socialism is just fascism with better slogans.
 
2001-12-12 01:46:33 PM  
OverpaidSlacker: Sorry if i seemed defensive. The whole point of the mom example was just an example. It's not a tactic - just an example that I'm familiar with. As for your argument, you are operating on the premise that the poor are always poor due to circumstances under their control and that the rich all work for their wealth. People are born into the classes that they hold for most of their lives. If you're born poor - you'll die poor. If you're born rich - you're lucky and haven't earned anything.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 01:49:14 PM  
Punkr10426,

My dad was born dirt poor and died a wealthy man. Because he was smart and worked hard.
 
2001-12-12 01:49:38 PM  
Fb- That's good for you.
 
2001-12-12 01:51:06 PM  
Punkr10426 - But the richest man in America is a shining example of how your premise "If you're born rich - you're lucky and haven't earned anything." is not always true.
 
2001-12-12 01:52:21 PM  
Oh no, that was wrong. I misread your premise. OK forget that.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 01:52:35 PM  
If you're born poor - you'll die poor. If you're born rich - you're lucky and haven't earned anything.

Point being, hardly.
 
2001-12-12 01:54:36 PM  
Punkr10426:
Some common ground! I am operating under some presumptions, but they are not as you describe them; I do not blame the poor for their condition, nor laud the rich for theirs. Where I think we differ is in your statement: "People are born into the classes that they hold for most of their lives. If you're born poor - you'll die poor."
I believe that a capitalist system (properly implemented, etc.) means that you're not doomed to poverty, in fact it specifically means you have plenty of chances to better your situation. You might not die in a mansion, but you can make your life better.
In socialism, there is only one class, and in that case, there is no escape (up or down). You're born neither rich nor poor and that's where you'll die.
 
2001-12-12 01:54:58 PM  
I'm not saying that there aren't rags to riches cases - they do exist. But they're not as common as we like to think.
 
2001-12-12 01:55:46 PM  
People are born into the classes that they hold for most of their lives.

OK, now this is the premise I was talking about. There are plenty of examples of people born dirt poor who have amassed considerable wealth.
 
2001-12-12 01:56:38 PM  
I was born poor, but I won't die a wealthy man unless my shares of monkeychow.com start rebounding post haste!
 
fb-
2001-12-12 01:58:25 PM  
Punkr10426,

A man is what he makes of himself. I am a firm believer in that. You can surrender to your image of a caste system and wallow in poverty and despair.

Opportunities are there for everybody. You have to be smart enough see them, quick enough to grab them and man enough to see them through.

It's the poor, unmotivated, and weak that sit in their shiat begging for socialism rather than get up and make something of their life.
 
2001-12-12 02:03:33 PM  
OverpaidSlacker: I've never been a fan of classes. It wouldn't bother me to have everone of the same class. In socialism, there still is some elbow room for lifestyle (in regards of a lifestyle as a reward). A train worker woulnd't live the same as a lawyer.
 
2001-12-12 02:06:49 PM  
I want to thank Harmonia and all the other idiots of the world for entertaining me with their mindless banter.

Here's a quotation from Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary that may be helpful to describe it:

Idiot, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been
dominant and controlling. The Idiot?s activity is not confined to any special field of thought or action, but ?pervades and regulates the whole.? He has the last word in everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the fashions of opinion and taste, dictates the limitations of speech and circumscribes conduct with a dead-line.
 
2001-12-12 02:08:58 PM  
FB -

I have a new game. Too bad he's gone, but you should try it.

Don't look at Fark for a few hours, wait for comment threads to get going on new links, then try to guess which ones Harmonia's on.

It's pretty amusing.
 
2001-12-12 02:09:24 PM  
Trouble is, if everyone being in one class was not both voluntary and unanimous, well... you know where I'm going with this. If you're going to allow lawyers in your ideal world, it won't stay socialist for long. heh
 
2001-12-12 02:09:25 PM  
"It's the poor, unmotivated, and weak that sit in their shiat begging for socialism rather than get up and make something of their life."

I don't know if I would put it quite like that but I will say that teaching the lower rung of American society to think in socialistic way when they clearly live in a Capitalistic system leaves them ill-equipped to elevate themselves and does them a terrible disservice, something the Democrats just don't understand.
 
2001-12-12 02:13:26 PM  
Fb- Don't presume to tell me what I'm doing with my life. I am going to school on a scholarship i earned for working hard, and paying for housing by working as an RA. I am not doing it for material goods, however. There is much more to life than working to obtain "wealth."
 
fb-
2001-12-12 02:17:59 PM  
Punkr10426,

I will tell you what I want, when I want. You are my little socialist biatch. Time for you to get to work improving my life or you are out of the system.
 
2001-12-12 02:19:52 PM  
Anyways, I'd like to sya that this was a good discussion. I just finished work, so now i can finally get to sleep for a couple of hours. Later.
 
2001-12-12 02:25:01 PM  
Capitalism = "I am entitled to what I earn by virtue of my hard work, innovation, intelligence, and merit."

Socialism = "I am entitled to what you have and I will use the government to get it from you."
 
2001-12-12 02:28:13 PM  
Lordargent:

"Australia must pay for this.

Send us your women."


On my way....
 
2001-12-12 02:28:59 PM  
The Aussies should do to him what we should do to Walker:

Try the bastard for treason and shoot the f'er on national television.
 
2001-12-12 02:33:00 PM  
MajorAtheist:
Treason will only get you a life sentence only over here..

If he can be linked to the Sept 11 attacks, then you guys have him and do what you will...
 
2001-12-12 02:35:34 PM  
Hmmm, coffee hasn't appeared to have kicked in yet.. pick an "only", and remove...
 
zkm
2001-12-12 02:36:25 PM  
I apoligize in advance, but I have to post this in here. It's to good with this thread.

> > Since the world situation is now making us all think about
> > how different governments, religions, customs and business are
> > effecting us, this may help simplified the situation and might
>t help us understand each other better.
> >
> > THE "TWO-COW EXPLANATION" -- THE ATTITUDE OF
> >
> > A CHRISTIAN:
> >
> > You have two cows, your neighbor has none, so you keep one and give
> > one to your neighbor.
> >
> > A SOCIALIST:
> >
> > Since all must be equal, and since you have two cows, the government
> > takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
> >
> > A REPUBLICAN:
> >
> > You have two cows. Well this is a free enterprise country; let my
>neighbor through hard work, get his own cow, just like I got mine.
> >
> > A DEMOCRAT:
> >
> > You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being
>successful. So being a Democrat, you vote people into office who proceed to
>tax your cows, forcing you to sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The
>people you voted for now take your tax money, take their cut,
> > and then buy a cow and give it to your neighbor along with a supply of
> > food stamps. Now you are supposed to feel righteous.
> >
> > A COMMUNIST:
> >
> > You have two cows. The government seizes both, and after standing in
> > line for 6 hours, the government provides you with a cup of milk.
> >
> > A FASCIST:
> >
> > You have two cows. The government seizes both and
> > sells you the milk. You join the underground and start a
> > campaign of sabotage.
> >
> > DEMOCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE:
> >
> > You have two cows. The government taxes you to the
> > point you have to sell both cows to support the guy on food
> > stamps and a man in a foreign country who has only one cow, which by
>the way was a gift from your government.
> >
> > CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE:
> >
> > You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build
> > a herd of cows.
> >
> > BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE:
> >
> > You have two cows. The government takes custody of
> > them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for not
> > milking, then pours the milk down the drain.
> >
> > AN AMERICAN CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other one
> > to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when the
> > cow drops dead.
> >
> > A FRENCH CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows. You go on strike because you want
> > the government to supply you with three cows.
> >
> > A JAPANESE CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the
> > size of an ordinary cow but they produce twenty times the milk.
> >
> > A GERMAN CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows. You reengineer them so they live
> > for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves. Great
> > engineers.
> >
> > AN ITALIAN CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows but you don't know where they are.
> > You break for lunch and then take a nap.
> >
> > A RUSSIAN CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows. You count them and learn you have
> > five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count
>them again and learn you have 12 cows. What the heck, you stop counting cows
>and open another bottle of vodka.
> >
> > A MEXICAN CORPORATION:
> >
> > You theenk you have two cows, but you don't know what the
> > cow she looksa like, so you take a siesta.
> >
> > A SWISS CORPORATION:
> > You have 5000 cows, none of which belongs to you. So you
> > charge for storing them for others.

> > A BRAZILIAN CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows. You enter into a partnership with
> > an American corporation. Soon you have 1000 cows and
> > then the American corporation declares bankruptcy.
> >
> > AN INDIAN CORPORATION:
> >
> > You have two cows. You worship them.


Sorry again, but I had to. HAHAHAHA!!!
 
2001-12-12 02:38:17 PM  
[image from heraldsun.news.com.au too old to be available]
 
zkm
2001-12-12 02:40:24 PM  
I'm an equal opportunity flamer. I even make fun of myself.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 02:41:28 PM  
Zkm,

Quality read.
 
2001-12-12 02:51:46 PM  
punkr10426: Not in a capitalist society their ain't! Bow before the might dollar!
 
2001-12-12 02:58:36 PM  
their=there
might=mighty

mh=not feeling well today

this thread=dead (i hope)
 
2001-12-12 03:10:35 PM  
Quote:"Capitalism = "I am entitled to what I earn by virtue of my hard work, innovation, intelligence, and merit." "

That's a near criminal lack of realism there. The actual definition is "I will take what I can get."

Not like I'm anti-capitalism.. but c'mon. Hard work, innovation, intelligence and merit? Plenty of people who have all those things never make it in America, and plenty of people who have none are extremely wealthy.
 
2001-12-12 03:17:25 PM  
Hard work, innovation, intelligence and merit? Plenty of people who have all those things never make it in America, and plenty of people who have none are extremely wealthy.

Ever seen the kinds of hurdles our government has placed in front of those who want to start their own businesses? I'm in the process of doing so right now, and you would not believe how incredibly vast the list of incentives NOT to compete and innovate are. All placed there by the liberal government of my state to "level the playing field" (i.e., socialize).

Ever seen what kind of incredible amounts of favoritism our government shows some over others? Remove the destabilizing element of government, and capitalism is still the best and most fair form of economic systems out there.

Get rid of government's incredibly inept influence in micromanaging every aspect of the economy, and you would find that the common man would have a better environment to compete in, and the extremely wealthy would find it a bit harder to hang onto their wealth when not placed on a pedestal by the very government they are funding.
 
2001-12-12 03:22:34 PM  
"Conservatives & Liberals: Conservatives say the government can't end poverty by force, but they believe it can use force to make people moral. Liberals say government can't make people be moral, but they believe it can end poverty. Neither group attempts to explain why government is so clumsy and destructive in one area but a paragon of efficiency and benevolence in the other." -- Harry Browne
 
2001-12-12 03:28:10 PM  
Hard work, innovation, intelligence and merit? Plenty of people who have all those things never make it in America, and plenty of people who have none are extremely wealthy.

The other thing I would like to point out about that statement of yours is that you seem to be approaching the concept with the idea that EVERYBODY is "entitled" to wealth and success. Just because you work hard doesn't guarantee automatic success. Just because you are intelligent and innovative doesn't mean you automatically succeed.

But they sure up your odds. And that's more fair than expecting a share of wealth based on your very existence, rather than by merit.

As Benjamin Franklin said, the Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.
 
2001-12-12 03:30:41 PM  
Read this: http://www.smh.com.au/news/0112/10/world/world4.html

You'll laugh
 
2001-12-12 03:34:00 PM  
ROFL!

You were right about the "You'll laugh" bit....
 
2001-12-12 03:47:35 PM  
Dem--

I don't at all think people are entitled to a thing. Capitalism has made a lot of people very very rich, and more importantly, has caused our society to open up to a lot of possibilities that we would have been resistant to otherwise. Why can we see boobies whenever we want? Capitalism. Why will weed be legal one day? Capitalism.

All I'm saying is that you can't say anyone 'deserves' what they get. They got what they got, lots of times working hard to get it, other times coasting on nepotism and financial inertia.

BTW: There are many people who believe that stopping the gov't from micromanaging the economy will just leave the corporations free reign to do the same. Absolute capitalism (i.e. not what we have right now) wouldn't do a damn thing for the common man, and would mean every labor law would go down the toilet.. most of which came about after the industrial revolution because, surprise surprise, the common man was dying at work. Constantly.

If there's a spectrum between total capitalism and total socialism, most westernized countries are spread out in the middle 10 percent.. strict capitalism was never a magic bullet.
 
2001-12-12 03:50:40 PM  
My response to that is another Harry quote. He put it well when he said:

"If government were reduced, what would prevent big business from becoming too powerful?" Competition. So long as there is a General Motors, there will be a Ford, a Chrysler, a Toyota -- offering to treat customers, stockholders, and employees better than General Motors.
 
2001-12-12 03:52:22 PM  
I thank thee Demosthenes for fighting the good fight.
 
2001-12-12 04:01:48 PM  
"In socialism, there is only one class, and in that case, there is no escape (up or down). You're born neither rich nor poor and that's where you'll die."

Do you actually believe that? I suggest you visit Sweden, democratic socialism at it's finest ;) heh
 
2001-12-12 04:04:51 PM  
Demo--

But corporations don't _have_ to compete. They can conspire.. and anyone who's taken basic econ knows that, depending on how high the bar is for getting into an industry (i.e. it's easier to be a mom and pop cookie store than to be a mom and pop auto manufacturer).. it's entirely possible for a small group of people to set prices.

i.e. Government intervention ensures that anti-competitive practices are punished.. true capitalism doesn't happen naturally.. it needs a strong referee to make sure that all are playing by the rules. So if by government interference you mean pointless rules that get in the way of making money, then yeah, get rid of it. But if you mean rules that keep everyone honest, competitive and safe, then yes, they are absolutely necessary.
 
2001-12-12 04:04:58 PM  
Thanks, Perrin.

BTW, Gumbo... don't misconstrue my quoting of Harry Browne et al as an inability on my part to form coherent points on my own... It's just that Harry puts things so well that I prefer not to mangle the points that he makes so much better than I could.
 
2001-12-12 04:08:59 PM  
and if you get bored listening to Harry Browne quotes, we can go to the true source. Ayn Rand. Her writing and logic is critized only by those who haven't read her, or by those who have read her and not understood.
 
2001-12-12 04:11:05 PM  
But if you mean rules that keep everyone honest, competitive and safe, then yes, they are absolutely necessary.

Not if they violate the Constitution of the United States.
 
2001-12-12 04:19:31 PM  
Even if I thought any labor laws violated the constitution, if they were there in the service of true competition, wouldn't it be wise to say 'screw the constitution?'
 
2001-12-12 04:21:43 PM  
Nope. Saying "screw the constitution" would be throwing out the baby with the bath water, friend.
 
2001-12-12 04:23:28 PM  
the kind of logic that brought us the income tax, social security, FDRs attempted midnight packing of the supreme court, Nixon's attempt to subvert the electoral process, and a steady stream of politicians dedicated to the proposition that telling lies in court is ok so long as you have a good reason.

organized labor and its support from the u.s. governement is soley responsible for the death of the american steel industry. 3 month vacation, sleeping on the job, getting paid 5 times that of any other skilled worker. Oh no! for some reason we can't compete with foreign steel.
 
2001-12-12 04:33:12 PM  
*sigh* my point is, you can't have capitalism without government regulation, because you can't have competition without a ref. Otherwise, you just have a black market, which is decidedly not capitalist, and not the 'invisible hand'.

So why the anti-govt rant mixed up with the pro-capitalism rant?

As for labor-- if they can twist someone's arm into paying them excellent wages and lots of vacations, why should I be mad? In the end, if they put the US Steel industry out of business, they'll all be out of jobs too.

And if you think the u.s. govt unilaterally supports labor (over management), you guys are naive as hell. Yes, there are votes to be had. But CEOs have more money, which is even better than labor votes.
 
2001-12-12 04:37:20 PM  
speeking of being naive: the point is the steel workers did put themselves out of jobs.

as for black market, it stems from two sources: selling stolen goods and selling goods that the government outlawed.

As any libertarian or objectivist will tell you, its the government's job to prosecute theft, but its not the government's job to outlaw goods. So, i'm not entirely sure where you are going w/ this black market bullshiat.

pro capitalism will always be mixed up w/ anti government, b/c where the governemnt does too much governing, capitalists can't capitalize. thats all now, i leave computer.
 
2001-12-12 04:37:40 PM  
So why the anti-govt rant mixed up with the pro-capitalism rant?

I'm not anti-government. All I want is a government small enough to fit inside the Constitution. That's all.
 
2001-12-12 04:38:18 PM  
Suse.. whatever:
I'd like to visit Sweden for several reasons, but lessons in economics is not one of them.
75% of my pay would be taken for unemployment insurance and public spending is almost 70% of GDP, in order to take care of Swedes "from erection to resurrection."
Sweden, wonderful though it is, is also not pure socialism, although through the 80s and 90s as it became more socialist, investment dropped, unemployment increased and development (net/net) flatlined.
 
2001-12-12 05:29:15 PM  
Obvious (i.e. Moron) hehe
 
2001-12-12 05:30:06 PM  
Well y'all have been busy.

You all have a very distorded idea of what socialism is. No wonder I suppose in a nation that sees it as a dirty word.

Start from democracy, the idea that all of us should have a say in how our various nations are governed. But while we all have a say (however imperfect) in governence.but we have no say in the economy.

Think about work, you dont elect the boss, or your supervisor, and lets be honest they may more of a difference to your everyday life than a politician does. You get to vote for the President, but no-one ballots the town when its factories are getting closed.

Socialism is anout extending democracy to what is produced, how it is produced and by whom. Not "Big government" but the people, those who make the wealth through their work, will democratically decide how the fruits of their labour should be used.

Sound like a bad idea anyone?
 
2001-12-12 05:35:11 PM  
That sounds positively AWFUL.
 
2001-12-12 05:36:24 PM  
Socialism is anout extending democracy to what is produced, how it is produced and by whom. Not "Big government" but the people, those who make the wealth through their work, will democratically decide how the fruits of their labour should be used.

All of which is completely impossible without an extremely powerful, centralized government that managed every aspect of the economy and every business, and distribution of wealth and property.
 
2001-12-12 05:42:31 PM  
Harmonia is a guy?All this time I seriously thought Harmonia was a woman.Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........!!!!!!!!!!
 
2001-12-12 05:43:11 PM  
I guess gender never came to mind... when I read Harmonia's posts, I just automatically think "ignoramus"...
 
2001-12-12 06:24:34 PM  
this doesnt surprise me im sure there are more waiting in some parts of sydney
 
zkm
2001-12-12 06:29:32 PM  
Harmonica-

You find alot of people misguided and idiotic here on FARK, so you want all of us to rule the world? Look at the majority of the people in the world, could they really know what is best for the planet?

See that is the dirty little secret of socialism, the people who advocate it most think that 'the people' will run a perfect utopia. Whe someone yells 'power to the People' they really mean 'power to me and my few friends that know how to really run this joint'.
 
2001-12-12 06:46:50 PM  
Ummmmmm...

just cause this guy fought for the Taliban doesn't make him guilty of Treason against Australia (and therefore US).

Okay he did something stoopid fighting for the Taliban, but hey - put yer hand up if you never did something stoopid ;-) (Okay his act probably beats even the dumbest thing you did, but hey...)

He should be treated as any other Taliban prisoner of war... if he is singled out for the crime of treason (which BTW is the only offence Australia has left with a death-penalty - though never used) the charge will not stick and he could be free to practice random acts of stupidity... again...
 
2001-12-12 07:05:49 PM  
Zkm,

hit the nail on the head.
 
2001-12-12 07:42:04 PM  
"See that is the dirty little secret of socialism, the people who advocate it most think that 'the people' will run a perfect utopia."

You could almost replace "socialism" with "libertarianism" and get the same result. :)
 
2001-12-12 08:07:25 PM  
Commie bastards! Especially you, Harmoanalot!
 
2001-12-12 10:08:34 PM  
Troll Alert!

[image from petebevin.com too old to be available]
 
2001-12-12 10:53:02 PM  
Hey, was that the Candian navy in Australia?
 
2001-12-13 01:20:32 AM  
If any of you guys are interested. The Press over here in Aus has been making a big point of saying that this Aussie guy was higher in rank than the American guy.

Like we should be proud that an Aussie can be higher in rank than any American in an terrorist organisation.
 
2001-12-13 09:13:35 AM  
two parts:

1-> LOL @ the Aussie press over here, so happy to have *some* connection to the War on Terrorism that they start talking about the death penalty and treason. There's a reason I don't watch A Current Affair/Sixty Minutes/Today-Tonight, and this is it.

2-> Socialism v. Captilism. I have had this same argument with my brother for about six months now, on and off. We haven't gotten anywhere in that time, and other have argued about it for far longer, so it's unlikey I'll come up with anything new here and now, but there is one point I have continually made with my brother:

It seems that those who look for dramatic change in our current system of capitalism/democracy to socialism (or anarchy in my brothers case) often assume one thing: the system we have at presebt is the best example of democracy, and as it isn't perfect, lets change it completely.

I hate that idea. I am completely ready to acknowledge the flaws and faults in the current system, but hold that *it*can*get*better*. It doesn't need to be completely changed. I know that what we (Australia and America) *do*not* have a true democracy (both government styles are more correctly Republics). Complete democracy would see that my local member of parliment consulted me and my fellow locals on _every_ decision she (or he) made.

I could say more on this, but as I have argued for six months or more, I leave it here at a few paragraphs :-)
 
2001-12-13 09:42:32 AM  
"Amedican have vedy beeg penishe,
Australian, vedy small, vedy small"

What is it with South Australian? I mean, they produce almost all of our countries serial killers, there is a higher rate of child assualt... BLAH... I went there once. Never going back again. SA is to Aus what Bega is to NSW. Wierd!

:P

-- snuf
 
2001-12-13 09:45:58 AM  
again. note the :P
 
2001-12-13 10:03:09 AM  
And in related news, "The Croc Hunter" will be featuring a new species of "snike." Undoubtably this will be fair-dinkum entertainment as we watch Steve swing this one around by his "tail."
 
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