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(Think Progress)   Students who graduate with degrees from for-profit colleges find they are equally as qualified to flip burgers as those who never attended college   ( thinkprogress.org) divider line
    More: Obvious, for-profit school, response rate, Virginia Foxx, TV Ad  
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5762 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2014 at 4:14 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-19 02:13:46 PM  
For-profit "college" was a scam even when I was considering college.
 
2014-08-19 02:29:10 PM  
Those researchers wasted a lot of other people's time.
 
2014-08-19 02:40:24 PM  
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.php?ind=H5300&cycle=All & recipdetail=H&mem=Y

It seems as though both parties have their hand in the proverbial cookie jar.  For-profit colleges own the Committee on Education and the Workforce.  Which means that nothing meaningful will happen.

/Education subsidies and interest rates should be tied directly to economic forecasts of industries and occupations facing shortages of qualified workers
//Everybody should get two years at a community college or state school subsidized for free
 
wee
2014-08-19 02:47:46 PM  
We don't look at resumes with for-profit colleges on them anymore. There's no point.
 
2014-08-19 02:52:52 PM  

wee: We don't look at resumes with for-profit colleges on them anymore. There's no point.


Have you had bad experience with graduates from those schools?  Has it been universal across all of them?

I'd think that there would be some that would actually have decent curriculums and teach valuable skills while there would be others that would be happy to cash the checks and pass everyone along to keep the money flowing.
 
2014-08-19 03:20:23 PM  
One of the industry's best friends in Washington is Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC), who not only decries proposed regulation of for-profits but compares the DOE effort to the Holocaust.

I'm not sure if it's really in her defense, but she compares many things to the Holocaust.  She's always a good one for over-the-top fear mongering.  I'm still waiting for the Apocalypse because we're nicer to gay people now.

Another one of her greatest hits:

And I believe the greatest fear that we all should have to our freedom comes from this room -- this very room -- and what may happen later this week in terms of a tax increase bill masquerading as a health care bill. I believe we have more to fear from the potential of that [ACA] bill passing than we do from any terrorist right now in any country.

You'd think a woman of her advanced years would be familiar with The Boy Who Cried Wolf.
 
2014-08-19 04:12:30 PM  

wee: We don't look at resumes with for-profit colleges on them anymore. There's no point.


Because experience counts for nothing.
 
2014-08-19 04:18:23 PM  
Sure, lets send thousands of fake resumes and block real applicants, just to say we are testing the system.
 
2014-08-19 04:18:25 PM  
After being charged two hundred dollars for a textbook, I am not sure that I believe in a non-profit college.
 
2014-08-19 04:20:56 PM  

Best Princess Celestia: Sure, lets send thousands of fake resumes and block real applicants, just to say we are testing the system.


THIS.
 
2014-08-19 04:21:35 PM  
This message brought to you from the fine folks at Big Education. Keep borrowing truck loads of cash to give to the "non-profit" universities.
 
2014-08-19 04:22:14 PM  
College, like healthcare, has been perverted into a heartless for-profit industry. We should seriously think about universal education. If you aren't getting a college education, it shouldn't be because you can't afford it.

Before/during college: You're too good to be flipping burgers!
After college: What, do you think you're too good to be flipping burgers?
 
2014-08-19 04:23:01 PM  
$35,000 for two years?

In state tuition for some state schools costs less.

I rarely say this, but there outta be a law, maybe one bars for profit schools from receiving federal student aid if they do fark all but absorb money.
 
2014-08-19 04:24:02 PM  
If your college is being advertised during the commercials for Maury or Judge Judy then yeah your degree is worth less than the cheap plastic sleeve that it's in when they mail it to you.
 
2014-08-19 04:24:48 PM  

Best Princess Celestia: Sure, lets send thousands of fake resumes and block real applicants, just to say we are testing the system.


I'm not understanding the problem here. Fewer people wasting their time and money on worthless degrees is a good thing. And I don't mean 'worthless' in the "majoring in communications" or "Greek literature" sense - I mean actually, literally, provably worthless.
 
2014-08-19 04:24:48 PM  

make me some tea: For-profit "college" was a scam even when I was considering college.


I have a degree from such a school and yet here I am working in my field of study. Half of the firm I work for have degrees from there and we're not participating in the shiatty economy.  For us things are good.  But then again, we don't suck at life.
 
2014-08-19 04:25:14 PM  

wee: We don't look at resumes with for-profit colleges on them anymore. There's no point.


Bingo.

cmunic8r99: Because experience counts for nothing


Granted.  I'll happily consider someone from a for-profit college if they have, say 5 years of experience behind them as well.  After dozens of interviews with University of Phoenix, et.al. "graduates" who were woefully unprepared, I don't even waste my time anymore.

I once interviewed someone with a Bachelors in IT and a Masters in Information Security for a Security Architect role who had no idea what a firewall was.  How is that even possible?
 
2014-08-19 04:26:10 PM  
Yeah.  For profit college degrees are looked at with disdain by nearly every HR person I have talked too.   There seems to be no logical reason to pick one over a Community College either.

Community Colleges are cheaper, look better on a resume, and most community college credits are one that will transfer to a University.  Heck, I went to a Community College for one year and 31 out of my 32 credits transferred to my school.  I ended up saving about $5,000 (and I pay in state tuition for my University).

I guess the only downside about a Community College is that most have some sort of academic expectations.
 
2014-08-19 04:26:54 PM  
How about we judge people on their skills, not which school they attended?

I've had the pleasure of working in a school call center before, and you haven't facepalmed at my level until you get to troubleshoot computer issues with a student chasing a post-graduate computer degree.

Traditional schools are just as bad as for-profit schools.
 
2014-08-19 04:27:15 PM  

fireclown: After being charged two hundred dollars for a textbook, I am not sure that I believe in a non-profit college.


My professors have written at least 1/2 of the books I've been forced to buy for their classes.
 
2014-08-19 04:27:25 PM  
Anyone notice Progressives sure do defend the ancient, ossified, fatally expensive institutions?
 
2014-08-19 04:27:42 PM  
Graduated with my bachelor's in Culinary Management from the Art Institute of Colorado (for-profit school) in December and am now making over 100k a year running my own personal chef service...not ALL of the for-profit degrees are toilet paper...
 
2014-08-19 04:28:11 PM  

fireclown: After being charged two hundred dollars for a textbook, I am not sure that I believe in a non-profit college.


www.aei-ideas.orgi.huffpost.com
 
2014-08-19 04:28:27 PM  
Diogenes: "You'd think a woman of her advanced years would be familiar with The Boy Who Cried Wolf."

Do you want to see how silly that sounds?
"You'd think Chris Farley would use his inside voice and be more mindful of his footing".

Doesn't make much sense, does it?
That dude took "yelling and falling down" *to the bank*!
... And then snorted the bank and died of a massive coronary.

So it's not a perfect analogy, but I think you get the point.
 
2014-08-19 04:29:51 PM  
Once you get a job, nobody gives a fark where you went to college.
 
2014-08-19 04:30:35 PM  

Fark It: /Education subsidies and interest rates should be tied directly to economic forecasts of industries and occupations facing shortages of qualified workers



You mean how many companies claim that there's a shortage of STEM graduates---even thought it's not true---which forces them to bring in H1B visa holders from outside the country (and at 1/3 to 1/2 the salary of an equally qualified American)?

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the -s cience-and-engineering-shortage/284359/

Those in the industries making those forecasts have an incentive to say that they need more workers than they do: The more people seeking those jobs, the lower the wages they have to pay.
 
2014-08-19 04:31:56 PM  

ringersol: Diogenes: "You'd think a woman of her advanced years would be familiar with The Boy Who Cried Wolf."

Do you want to see how silly that sounds?
"You'd think Chris Farley would use his inside voice and be more mindful of his footing".

Doesn't make much sense, does it?
That dude took "yelling and falling down" *to the bank*!
... And then snorted the bank and died of a massive coronary.

So it's not a perfect analogy, but I think you get the point.

This

 is the thing that got your attention?

OK.
 
2014-08-19 04:32:49 PM  

badhatharry: Once you get a job, nobody gives a fark where you went to college.


Just that you went and can prove it.


My work only wants a 4 year degree for promotions.  It doesn't matter the field.  Music, Criminal Justice, Communication, Biology.  As long as it's a 4 year degree, they don't care.  Now if you have a two year degree, no promotion for you.

Tis silly.
 
2014-08-19 04:32:51 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: make me some tea: For-profit "college" was a scam even when I was considering college.

I have a degree from such a school and yet here I am working in my field of study. Half of the firm I work for have degrees from there and we're not participating in the shiatty economy.  For us things are good.  But then again, we don't suck at life.


I worked for an employer who only hired college graduates.  Their policy was that someone with a degree from a for-profit school doesn't count as a college graduate.
 
2014-08-19 04:33:54 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: Anyone notice Progressives sure do defend the ancient, ossified, fatally expensive institutions?


I know, let's cut education budgets around the country some more, and see what happens.

budgetandpolicy.org
 
2014-08-19 04:34:23 PM  

FizixJunkee: You mean how many companies claim that there's a shortage of STEM graduates---even thought it's not true---which forces them to bring in H1B visa holders from outside the country (and at 1/3 to 1/2 the salary of an equally qualified American)?


I also think that H1Bs should not be allowed in unless they're going to be paid what an American would be.  If there's truly a shortage then allow the H1Bs.  If the "shortage" is "we're too cheap" then make these companies raise their starting offers first.
 
2014-08-19 04:35:03 PM  
DeathByGeekSquad: "How about we judge people on their skills, not which school they attended?"

Unless you went to a seriously highly regarded school, no-one much cares.
Anyone who claims to care about comparative value of non-Ivy League sorts of schools, is just flailing around for any excuse to thin a pile of applicants.
If they couldn't/didn't filter by college, they'd use some other baseless qualifications. Like your extra-curriculars.

/ why the hell do people still put those on their resumes?
 
2014-08-19 04:35:06 PM  

sign_of_Zeta: Yeah.  For profit college degrees are looked at with disdain by nearly every HR person I have talked too.   There seems to be no logical reason to pick one over a Community College either.

Community Colleges are cheaper, look better on a resume, and most community college credits are one that will transfer to a University.  Heck, I went to a Community College for one year and 31 out of my 32 credits transferred to my school.  I ended up saving about $5,000 (and I pay in state tuition for my University).

I guess the only downside about a Community College is that most have some sort of academic expectations.


Community college used to be a dirty word around here but a lot of spending by the provincial government and some big changes have changed that.  I wouldn't hesitate to consider a CC grad for a position related to their field of study.  They have good results for students and for employers and a huge range of courses.  My wife has a double major BA from Dalhousie University (consistently well respected university)and was struggling in the job market. Less than a year after getting a diploma from the community College she's working in her field and loving her job.  University and higher learning is all well and good but you gotta be able pay the bills afterward too.
 
2014-08-19 04:37:16 PM  

meat0918: Clemkadidlefark: Anyone notice Progressives sure do defend the ancient, ossified, fatally expensive institutions?

I know, let's cut education budgets around the country some more, and see what happens.

[budgetandpolicy.org image 850x552]


Toss a trend of 'Non-teaching payroll costs (administrators)' and 'construction' costs on that graph, will ya?
 
2014-08-19 04:37:59 PM  
i went to a for-profit school and am doing just fine.  i actually enjoyed it a lot more than when i went to a public school.  i went to school full time while working.  most of my courses were made up with working people who were concerned about getting the work done rather than debating the format of the test or the other nonsense people at public schools love to debate because they have nothing better to do.

the curriculum was more rigorous than people assume.  i was also taught by an actual teacher who worked in my field and not in a lecture hall with some TA.  i also get that i could never be an astronaut or whatever with my degree, but i don't want to be.  my degree gave me the chance to learn more about my field and has served me well.

also, public schools receive state subsidies, in addition to accepting federal financial aid, and still raise tuition.  i saw a news article that showed that the coaches at public universities are the highest paid government employees in each state.  a lot of for-profit schools don't have to worry about the sports team.  obviously something should be done about the for-profit sector spending so much on advertising and administration costs.

bottom line though, intelligence and hard work are not always something learned through university.  it's silly to dismiss a resume based on where they went to school unless they are applying to be an engineer and went to massage school or something.

maybe we should stop requiring people to go into debt to get a job.  college is not for everyone and not necessary for many jobs.  that's the real problem.
 
2014-08-19 04:38:24 PM  

youmightberight: fireclown: After being charged two hundred dollars for a textbook, I am not sure that I believe in a non-profit college.

My professors have written at least 1/2 of the books I've been forced to buy for their classes.


That's how they eat.  I worked for an Assistant Professor (PhD) at the University of Texas (I was one of her two TA's in Grad school) and she was making $35,000 a year in 1993.  My salary was $21,000, and I hadn't earned my MA yet.  She was in a publish (more than papers) or perish model.

It has since become much worse.
 
wee
2014-08-19 04:38:24 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Have you had bad experience with graduates from those schools? Has it been universal across all of them?


Pretty much universally terrible, yeah.  At least in the IT world anyway.

I guess if someone has a whole bunch of experience, and for some odd reason also has a for-profit degree, that isn't going to disqualify them or anything.  Though even back at a place I worked at in 2001, they'd put those resumes in to the discard pile with a flushing noise...
 
2014-08-19 04:39:10 PM  
I was a regional manager and from my experiences all of the applicants with for profit degrees were ill prepared. Every one of them I had to replace. Once I stopped hiring applicants with these degrees my turnovers stopped. From struggling with math for reports to unable to write/execute business plans.
 
2014-08-19 04:39:18 PM  
Diogenes: "This is the thing that got your attention?"

... has Virginia Foxx compared your sense of humor to the Holocaust?
 
2014-08-19 04:39:22 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: badhatharry: Once you get a job, nobody gives a fark where you went to college.

Just that you went and can prove it.


My work only wants a 4 year degree for promotions.  It doesn't matter the field.  Music, Criminal Justice, Communication, Biology.  As long as it's a 4 year degree, they don't care.  Now if you have a two year degree, no promotion for you.

Tis silly.


Very silly. Promotions, or jobs for that matter, should go to the people that can do the job the best. It's just one of the obstacles the gatekeepers have put up to keep the riff raff out. Same with MBA's for top executive positions.
 
2014-08-19 04:41:32 PM  

youmightberight: fireclown: After being charged two hundred dollars for a textbook, I am not sure that I believe in a non-profit college.

My professors have written at least 1/2 of the books I've been forced to buy for their classes.


CSB: For my degree I needed to buy zero books, although a math textbook was recommended as a useful reference. All lecturers provided notes and handouts for all the classroom subject matter and the library was amply stocked with various reference books needed for papers. One lecturer wrote his own textbook on earthquake engineering as he felt all current ones were inadequate and outdated, he gave everyone in the class a free binder with the book printed out on 8.5x11 paper. If you lost it you had to cough up about $20 in photocopier costs. Tuition was also about $1500/year. As you might have guessed, this wasn't in the US.
 
2014-08-19 04:42:04 PM  

Fark It: I also think that H1Bs should not be allowed in unless they're going to be paid what an American would be.


The H1bs don't necessarily cost less, but it does give the employer much more control over the employee, They can't just up and quit when a better oppurtunity comes along, because their visa is tied to the employer.
 
2014-08-19 04:42:25 PM  

ringersol: Diogenes: "This is the thing that got your attention?"

... has Virginia Foxx compared your sense of humor to the Holocaust?


I'm gay.  I'm pretty sure I can figure out what Virginia Foxx thinks about me in general.
 
2014-08-19 04:43:08 PM  
The prison industy and the for-profit college industry in this country are complete and utter rackets, designed to flush tons of taxpayer dollars into the hands of those immoral enough to run them, while either utterly ruining the lives of those who fall prey to them, or making their lives incomparably more difficult.

But good luck dislodging these demons from the body politic -- they have their Virginia Foxxes of the world well-fed.
 
2014-08-19 04:44:16 PM  
Congratulations!
You are now qualified for...

High School
TV/VCR Repair
Computer Programming
Electrician
Animal Care Specialist
Auto Mechanics
PC Repair
Bookkeeping
 
2014-08-19 04:44:27 PM  
You can't learn what some of us know in any school.
 
2014-08-19 04:44:27 PM  
JusticeandIndependence: "My work only wants a 4 year degree for promotions"

Yeah... That's one of those "policy" lines they throw at people during negotiations, to get them to accept lower offers.
If they want you, they'll pay.
If they refuse to pay -- it's possible you're not worth it -- but odds are they just don't care to have anyone who is worth it.
 
2014-08-19 04:45:09 PM  

wee: TuteTibiImperes: Have you had bad experience with graduates from those schools? Has it been universal across all of them?

Pretty much universally terrible, yeah.  At least in the IT world anyway.

I guess if someone has a whole bunch of experience, and for some odd reason also has a for-profit degree, that isn't going to disqualify them or anything.  Though even back at a place I worked at in 2001, they'd put those resumes in to the discard pile with a flushing noise...


In healthcare a lot of these for-profit schools aren't even accredited by the Joint Commission or CCNE.  Which makes the degree even more useless, because virtually no clinical site is going to allow students from non-accredited institutions to interact with patients.  And they pull the old bait-and-switch when it comes to how they advertise, making lofty and vague claims about the growth of healthcare-related fields, while touting their "Medical Assistant" programs which make you a glorified secretary and cost $40k.
 
2014-08-19 04:46:11 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: Anyone notice Progressives sure do defend the ancient, ossified, fatally expensive institutions?


Weird....I'm as libby as the libs get and the cost of my State College degree after 4 years was less than the sticker price on my used 1996 Saturn (purchased in 2000).  After spending four years getting involved in a slew of projects I found my resume was eeking out candidates that were in colleges waaaaay above what I had gone to.

I would say that the narrative with libs isn't about being slavishly devoted to an ancient and expensive institution but instead understanding the resources one may have over the other in regards to real world preparation and experience prior to graduation because odds are they won't be going to work for "Daddy" in the home office once they matriculate.
 
2014-08-19 04:47:04 PM  
I used to recruit IT staff for a consulting firm, and the original set of DeVry graduates were great.  I am talking about 25 years ago, and don't know what they are like now.

I am sure there is a regional bias, but I don't automatically dismiss all FP College degrees.  My friend earned his through the GI Bill from UofP, and he is great.  That is the thing, he is great.  I don't think the degree is what makes him who he is.
 
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