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(Boston Globe)   American Taliban fighter says bio-attacks could begin after Sunday   (boston.com ) divider line
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8009 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Dec 2001 at 8:45 AM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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nez
2001-12-12 02:13:32 PM  
Forgot to close that damn tag... sorry.
 
2001-12-12 02:17:48 PM  
"though it's a rather big IF to say that the US will suddenly lose the support of her allies in the world theatre."

Well, since almost every ally has been saying thru back channels that if we take this war to Iraq without presenting solid evidence that they were directly involved with 9/11 we will lose there support, I suppose it's not that unforeseeable.
Goatman is right in that the US can not perpetually throw around its weight and expect the rest of the world not to grow resentful. Right now, no one can stand up to us and we have the playing field virtually to ourselves. This will not last forever, so it is in the long term best interests of the United States to work very closely with our allies and not project a unilateralist "might-makes-right" foreign policy.
However, we are still by far the world's only superpower. I like the term the French came up with for us--a Hyperpower.
 
Rei
2001-12-12 02:19:25 PM  
Now, as far as the "collateral damage" it IS unfortunate, but tell me this if the Taliban
parks a tank next to a hospital, don't you think they bear responsibility for turning the
"civilians" into "collateral damage"?


*sigh* how many times do I have to go over this one?
Once again, I challenge *anyone* to show an on the scenes reporter who said they saw the Taliban doing *anything* like this. Every time I saw an article where an On-The-Scenes reporter asked about this, they always said something along the lines of "We haven't seen much military equiptment in the cities at all. On the other hand, on the outskirts of the city, we can see all sorts of equiptment under trees, under rocks..."

I've seen photos - from *RAWA* (a group that has been working to get rid of the Taliban for years) - that the Taliban evacuated because it was too close to military targets that might be hit.

BTW - there's a big misconception there. The Taliban is mostly reliant on ground troops, not tanks. Our pilots have referred to it as "jeep plinking", mainly because there aren't many tanks to hit (it was "tank plinking" in Iraq). Of course, many jeeps in Afghanistan are used to transport refugees...

Of course, even ignoring all of *that*, well... (next post)
 
2001-12-12 02:19:53 PM  
exactly worldcitizen
 
2001-12-12 02:21:10 PM  
You would have a valid point about the US not recognizing the Taliban IF we were the only ones who didnt... 3 Country's did...Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and U.A.E. Iran didnt even recognize them....Russia, UK, The Swiss! The Swiss are neutral to everything... Sorry Rei that argument that because we didn't observe them as legitimate was American bias kind of loses any water when you factor in that The ENTIRE WORLD said they weren't legit.
 
fb-
2001-12-12 02:21:37 PM  
WorldCitizen,

I do agree with some of that. We can't go into Iraq without very clear provocation. This threatening them, when they have done nothing overtly offensive is stupid.

However, it is in out best interest to take advantage of the situation else where while the playing field is virtually ours, as you say.

Phillipines have a friendly government, under siege by al qaeda and they are asking for help. How bout them for nexties?
 
2001-12-12 02:21:53 PM  
Rosalea: Sorry. I honestly was just joking. I only meant to post one demeaning comment (seriously...as a joke (troll)). Somehow they both went up.

Anyho...Portland is embarassed to have me here

***scurries away***
 
fb-
2001-12-12 02:25:11 PM  
Nothing gives a liberal a bigger boner than the words 'collateral damage'
 
2001-12-12 02:25:50 PM  
Glenlivid: lol...well its okay. I'm sure portland isn't too embarassed to have you here. Even if you obviously aren't one of the liberals who live here *grins*
 
2001-12-12 02:26:37 PM  
"Phillipines have a friendly government, under siege by al qaeda and they are asking for help. How bout them for nexties?'

If the Phillipines are asking for our help, and there is a terrorist cell there threatening a democratic government and/or the US, I have no problems going in and taking them out.
 
2001-12-12 02:26:39 PM  
WC--

Not going to argue that at all.

But it is important to keep in mind that governments do not "think" like people. NATO members, for example, are far better off standing WITH the United States than against; resentment such as "You're too powerful!" isn't part of the equation.
 
2001-12-12 02:27:43 PM  
hey Fb- can't that words collateral damage give me a boner and I'm a liberal. Maybe its the being female thing. Although really those words just don't do anythign for me...hmm..
 
2001-12-12 02:27:43 PM  
Did ya'll here they opend libral season yestidy, seems tha limit is as many as you kin karry....
 
2001-12-12 02:28:46 PM  
You know what the supreme irony is? I Don't like W, or Ashcroft.. and I am completely opposed to this whole "trade freedoms for security idea" but I will NOT falter in my support for the military... Those are my brothers & sisters.
 
2001-12-12 02:28:53 PM  
Rei: "..it takes our blood if we want to be just.." Is that what you're pissed about? We don't fight fair. You'd rather we just send in massive infantry and use strictly M-16's? No artillery? No airstrikes? And what was Afghanistan prior to 10-07 if not "an unstable, warlord-dominated, easily-terrorist-harboring, bandit-infested hellhole"?
 
2001-12-12 02:30:59 PM  
hey same here Rapier.
 
2001-12-12 02:32:43 PM  
fb- The US already has "advisors" on the ground in the Philippines.
 
Rei
2001-12-12 02:32:57 PM  
(continuing)

"From that high up, there's almost no visual difference between a tank and a schoolbus. But! A school bus doesn't emit a tank tactical radio, and if it does, you should probably blow it up anyways." -- Dave Adamy (giving an Electronic Warfare course for where I work)

Rapier:

You would have a valid point about the US not recognizing the Taliban IF we were the only ones who didnt... 3 Country's did...Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and U.A.E. Iran didnt even recognize them....

The Iranians are shiites. The Taliban are Sunnis.

Russia, UK, The Swiss! The Swiss are neutral to everything...

Again, it's still a technicality. And I noticed you skipped the rest of my post:

Al Qaeda, on the other hand, only had small land grants. So, you could go for the land way to disqualify them from the "allowed to kill hundreds of thousands of people to convince them to capitulate but have it not be terrorism" club, but that's pretty arbitrary.

That was in reference to:

So... do you need to own land lots of land to qualify to be able to kill hundreds of thousands of people to convince them to capitulate but have it not be terrorism?

Or... do you need more than 10,000 troops to qualify to be able to kill hundreds of thousands of people to convince them to capitulate but have it not be terrorism?

Or... is it the motive you're questioning, for the right to be able to kill hundreds of thousands of people to convince them to capitulate but have it not be terrorism?


I'd appreciate it if you'd consider the rest :)

Fb-:

It's Somalia. It's been pretty clear for a while.
 
2001-12-12 02:33:54 PM  
I'm Libertarian/Independant...I'd be curious to see what each of your "leanings" are ...although most are fairly apparent.

I think this 2 party system is a dinosaur... we need to re-address the party system here... Just throwing in a side note...lol
 
fb-
2001-12-12 02:34:34 PM  
Cheeseburger,

That's exactly what she wants. She knows that US soldiers being killed would be even greater fodder for her pointless arguments.

That is why she is opposed to bombing.
 
2001-12-12 02:34:40 PM  
"But it is important to keep in mind that governments do not 'think' like people. NATO members, for example, are far better off standing WITH the United States than against; resentment such as 'You're too powerful!' isn't part of the equation."

For now. I commented on the EU not being able to get their act together to form a coherent foreign policy. They could eventually get themselves together. Not that I think Europe and the US are in our lifetimes ever going to come to blows over anything...we have too much invested in each other culturally and economically. And the resentment is not just over "you're too powerful". The resentment is over the US totally ignoring the wishes of its allies just because it can. Take the ABM treaty. The only real ally we have there is John Howard (Aussie PM). Every other nation is against us just flat out dropping it. Are we listening to any of them? No. Are we even trying to look like we're taking their interests into consideration? No. Things like that build up over time.
We need to use our strength, but we need to make sure we are playing a long term strategic game using our brains and not just our braun.
 
2001-12-12 02:34:45 PM  
Come one come all!
TREE HUGGING PARTY!

There will be a tree hugging party this weekend at Fb-'s place. The word on the street is to BYOT ...bring your own tree. If you can't bring a tree a cactus will be provided instead.

Special Guest: W ... W will be present to explain the history of the word 'evil' and to show you all the ways you can use 'evil' in a sentence. He will also discuss the origin for his extreme love of dropping bombs. (Sources say it stems from the Warcraft 2 unit that would utter "Bomb's are GRRREAT!" is a cooky Scotish accent.)

Come one come all!
TREE HUGGING PARTY!
 
2001-12-12 02:35:33 PM  
Rosalea: So are you saying that the wife should just get a divorce, become a lesbian, never have male kids and stop procreating, thus ending humanity's future? ;P
 
2001-12-12 02:36:31 PM  
is the tree sex guy from teen health fx invited to this party? is it that kind of party?

sounds like fb-'s thing :P
 
fb-
2001-12-12 02:36:58 PM  
Rei,

Good, Somalia is fine. If we go in there with a job to do rather than hand out food while we stand around and get shot, I think we will do fine.

Somalia is just Afghanistan with darker skin.
 
2001-12-12 02:38:34 PM  
Dachande: lol :P well I'm sure having a girlfriend would be a lot better then an abusive husband. Better then a non abusive husband too, I mean they could trade clothes, less likely to forget anniversaries..no dealing with the toilet seat being left up *grins*

anyway I'm not saying violence is bad...i'm saying blindly attacking back is back. Sometimes it makes more sense to not retaliate.
 
2001-12-12 02:39:27 PM  
Rapier, there should be no parties, and no campaining. However there should be on air debates once per month untill election day, and it should be open forum, open invatation thus eliminating lobbys, backroom deals, and money from the equation.
 
2001-12-12 02:40:24 PM  
And that's where we're heading next, after we destroy Afghanistan, and Rei and Nez hold their stupid little candlelight vigils.
 
2001-12-12 02:41:24 PM  
True, but then waiting for the next attack to come would be bad too, like you hit me again and I'll be angry! OW! okay, now I'm angry so if you hit me again.... and so on
 
2001-12-12 02:41:51 PM  
good grief...I must remember to spell check before hitting add comment
 
2001-12-12 02:42:00 PM  
Sheesh Baloosh...you must hate candles or something. What are you, a communist?
 
2001-12-12 02:42:26 PM  
Somalia is just Afghanistan with darker skin.

I just spat all over my screen. Classic Fb-
 
2001-12-12 02:43:19 PM  
true....maybe you should move out of range of me hitting you then :P
 
2001-12-12 02:44:51 PM  
Rosalea• See! You just proved that violence gets you what you want...Shame on you :O
 
2001-12-12 02:46:18 PM  
Mundinator: Don't hate candles... hate the people holding them, weeping for the lost Al Qaeda and Taliban. People like Nez and Rei... and other 3 letter nicknames with "e" in the middle.

What are you, Mundinator: a terrorist hugger?
 
2001-12-12 02:47:30 PM  
lol...bah...
maybe I just wanted to hit you. To hurt you. All hitting me back would have done is make me hit you harder..and so on....
 
2001-12-12 02:48:14 PM  
The US and the Taliban?
[image from a799.ms.akamai.net too old to be available]
Apples and oranges, indeed...
 
2001-12-12 02:49:39 PM  
Well, you're the violent one™, hitting me first. I'm bigger than you. You should have just asked...
 
2001-12-12 02:50:57 PM  
 
2001-12-12 02:51:18 PM  
how do you know you're bigger then me. I could be in that dance troop from the article last week :P
 
nez
2001-12-12 02:52:35 PM  
poo
 
2001-12-12 02:52:46 PM  
In that case I'd just have to wait for the stage to collapse under you, its a win-win situation for me.. b-} (thats Mullah Omar :P)
 
2001-12-12 02:53:30 PM  
zort
 
Rei
2001-12-12 02:53:38 PM  
Rei: "..it takes our blood if we want to be just.." Is that what you're pissed about? We don't fight fair. You'd rather we just send in massive infantry and use strictly M-16's? No artillery? No airstrikes?

Either you haven't paid much attention, or you're setting up a straw man; I'll guess the former.

No. That is not the situation at all. I'll repeat my earlier post:

-----------
Rosalea- I'm with you. Killing begets killing. However, if you're the gov't, how do you take the moral high road when 3500 of your people are slaughtered?

By attempting to negotiate first, by trying to limit your targets to those directly involved, by using ground forces who can tell the difference between a jeep full of soldiers and a jeep full of civilians, not bombing cities from several miles up, not taking out civilian infrastructure, not using cluster bombs, not arming human rights violators to do our bidding when it suits them...

There are *many* things we could have done, and still gotten rid of al Qaeda, without these devestating civilian casualties, killing thousands of civilians directly, causing
thousands/tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands to die indirectly while fleeing, spreading anti-US sentiment, and putting the country in charge of the murderer/rapist/terrorist/warring Northern Alliance, and being overrun by bandits.
-----------

Then, Benjamin pointed out that this would cost more US lives. I then stated that if we want our fight to be *just* (note: keyword "just"), that the cost will be more blood. If we want to be unjust, and kill civilians at a whim and put a brutal warring set of regimes in charge of the country, defeating the "making it free from terrorist-harboring", to save a handful of US lives), then by all means, do what we've been doing.

And what was Afghanistan prior to 10-07 if not "an unstable, warlord-dominated, easily-terrorist-harboring, bandit-infested hellhole"?

90-95% of the country was under 1 power. Banditry was almost nonexistant. Humanitarian aid went on, with only occasional interruptions - almost always by the Northern Alliance robbing shipments. Civil war was limited to the Northern fronts, and kept completely out of cities. While Shariat was the law, it was more humane than many of the things the NA was famous for doing to their "captives". While government-sponsored beatings were up, government-sponsored rapes were down.

Here's the situation over there:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/662674.asp

The article's a little old, the country's actually gotten worse since then. The article's prediction about the Bonn treaty was correct, with the outright rejection of it by several of the many unattending commanders, including the arguably most powerful commander in the NA, Dotsum.
 
2001-12-12 02:56:48 PM  
I remember durning the Gulf war I went out to a street corner where one side was waving US flags and the other was sitting there quitly with candles. The peace side was not even really saying anything they just wanted people to remember the war=death and that is not good. My friends and I talked to a few of the peace people. There were nice, but they warned us to becareful because the patriotic side was harassing them. As soon as they said that a red-neck truck drove by and egged all of us. Now the problem here is that people who feel patriotic by waving flags reject, sometimes violently, the possiblity that the peace side is also be patriotic by expressing their feelings on the subject. Which simply do not include bombing and death. Deal with it people have different views, just because they do not agree with a policy or a war, does not mean that they are against the US and for the "evildoers". Whoever thought of that word for Bush should be fired, only because it sounds stupid.
 
2001-12-12 02:56:59 PM  
I don't weep for the lost Taliban and the lost Al Qaeda. I do, however, feel sorrow of the loss of the lives of innocent women and children no matter what nationality they are. Sometimes it can be said that their loss is for the greater good, although, for me personally, I find that hard to judge. Terrorists also think that the deaths of civilians is for the greater good (of Palestine, Mecca, Irish liberation or whatever their cause--it does not matter because civilian deaths are justified in their mind).
I do, however, realize that the real world sucks and sometimes innocent people have to die so that other innocent people can be safe. We just have the power to make sure it's the "others".
 
2001-12-12 02:57:33 PM  
Rei,

Item 1) If we bombed everyone who said "we declare war on the US" even though their government said otherwise...we'd be at war with the world.

item 2) It is neither population nor land, nor troops, it's called being an organized state, with the backing of the people in your country.
Using your reasoning then we should what exactly? Capitulate and remove all troops from the middle east? Pull all backing from every location the US has an interest? Answer me this one, If what the United States did was terrorism...was Pearl Harbor? We don't have that listed as terrorism in the history books....just as a sneak attack.

It's truly amazing to me that you seem to be willing to condemn the US in their struggle to get Bin Laden.. but let's take a look, shall we>


1993 - Al Qaeda attempts to (unsuccessfully) blow up the WTC. action: international support sought for capture of OBL

1998 - US Embassy in Kenya attacked action taken: tomahawk strike on Al Qaeda bases (unsuccessful)

2000 - USS Cole attacked by Al Qaeda, Lobbed a few more Tomahawks at Al Qaeda

2001 - Largest terrorstic strike in US history, action:
America offers Taliban chance to turn over OBL, it is refused. THEN we begin strikes.

Should we have waited for a tactical Nuclear strike before retaliations? The pattern of escalating violence had been there for some time, Rei. at some point you must defend yourself.
 
Rei
2001-12-12 03:01:12 PM  
Dachande: lol :P well I'm sure having a girlfriend would be a lot better then an abusive husband. Better then a non abusive husband too, I mean they could trade clothes, less likely to forget anniversaries..no dealing with the toilet seat being left up *grins*

It's great.. you don't need as much of a clothes budget (well, except for pants and underwear, in our case)... noone being amused with what noises they can cause their body to make, noone trying to change the channel to sports... ;)
 
2001-12-12 03:01:38 PM  
In a nutshell, Rei would trade American lives for Afghani lives. That's all it really boils down to. She'd rather see more of our military personnel lost, in exchange for her "correct" solution to the problem -- fewer Afghanistan civilians dead.

phark dat biiiatch.
 
2001-12-12 03:02:10 PM  
Rei:
"I could care less about american military casualties - those are people who signed up to have themselves put on the front lines."

What more can be said about that? Glad to know folks like you are working in our defence industry.
 
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