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(PennLive)   Yes there are "elite" public schools out there, and liberals are trying to destroy them   (pennlive.com) divider line 56
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1650 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Aug 2014 at 2:01 PM (19 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-14 11:50:57 AM  
Nice how he tries to tie charter schools with the top public schools. There isn't a single union member who is against Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech.
 
2014-08-14 12:02:58 PM  
I thought liberals were educated elitists.   Why would they destroy elite schools?


Thomas Sowell?   Ugh!
 
2014-08-14 12:18:57 PM  
Ah yes, the "social degeneracy" of gangsta rap is the cause of black underachievement. Because nobody decried the "social degeneracy" of jazz or rock and roll.
 
2014-08-14 01:25:37 PM  
troll article is troll
 
2014-08-14 02:04:34 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: I thought liberals were educated elitists.   Why would they destroy elite schools?


Thomas Sowell?   Ugh!


Stopped reading there...
 
2014-08-14 02:09:34 PM  
Sad that he has to reach back to the 19th century and 1938 to find completely unrelated examples to try to make his point.  I don't know how I didn't realize it was sowell until the end.

Please excuse me, I need to go drench myself in hand sanitizer now.
 
2014-08-14 02:12:04 PM  
Yea, there are "elite" schools in 'murica.  as long as you can afford them...................
 
2014-08-14 02:12:35 PM  

nmrsnr: Ah yes, the "social degeneracy" of gangsta rap is the cause of black underachievement. Because nobody decried the "social degeneracy" of jazz or rock and roll.


"It is not the young people that degenerate: they are not spoilt 'til those of maturer age are already sunk into corruption."  --Montesquieu

// physician economist, heal thyself
 
2014-08-14 02:14:34 PM  

nmrsnr: Ah yes, the "social degeneracy" of gangsta rap is the cause of black underachievement. Because nobody decried the "social degeneracy" of jazz or rock and roll.


Igor Stravinsky approves of this post.
 
2014-08-14 02:14:42 PM  
Yes there are "elite" public schools out there, and liberals are trying to  destroy them get their kids into them.

/FTFY
 
2014-08-14 02:14:59 PM  

Linux_Yes: Yea, there are "elite" schools in 'murica.  as long as you can afford them...................


But libruls want to fire all the good teachers and replace them with incompetent union members who will vote Democrat, this is what the right believes or is trying to sell to get the public school system replaced with for-profit charter schools.
 
2014-08-14 02:20:09 PM  

monoski: Linux_Yes: Yea, there are "elite" schools in 'murica.  as long as you can afford them...................

But libruls want to fire all the good teachers and replace them with incompetent union members who will vote Democrat, this is what the right believes or is trying to sell to get the public school system replaced with for-profit charter schools.


No shiat, finally our schools can be as good as our telecom companies!
 
2014-08-14 02:21:10 PM  
Typical conservative article.  Biatches about everything but offers no solutions.
 
2014-08-14 02:25:27 PM  
I always thought that what school you went to was dictated by the geographic location of your residence.
 
2014-08-14 02:29:08 PM  
You know, this may be a legitimate gripe on the part of conservatives against liberals, but in the final analysis, who gives a fark? They're wrong on so many other things, it's hardly worth the trouble of extracting the occasional niblet of truth from the diarrhea of conservative thinking. If the conservatives are right on this one, eventually the mistake will become apparent and we'll fix it. Or not. It's not a massive disaster in the way that, say, letting conservatives control women's reproductive rights, or disenfranchise minorities, or involve us in endless wars, or dictate morality, or control the economy are massive disasters. First let's crush and marginalize them politically, put their worst offenders in jail, recoup the money they've stolen from the poor and middle class, and tax their gold-plated toilet seats. Then we can worry about whether "elite" schools have gotten a fair shake.
 
2014-08-14 02:31:25 PM  
Just because it you think it in your feels, doesn't make it true Sowell.
 
2014-08-14 02:32:22 PM  
Are liberals fighting the teaching of evolution or sex education?  Are they trying to re-write the History texts?

No?  Then GTFO, Sowell.
 
2014-08-14 02:33:19 PM  
I dont know about destroy but the liberal state legislature keeps removing state funds to my school district in order to shift the funds to other schools.  Hell I moved here because of the school dist.  One of the top two in a 50 mile radius.
 
2014-08-14 02:35:31 PM  
Uncle Thomas
 
2014-08-14 02:38:28 PM  

Isitoveryet: I always thought that what school you went to was dictated by the geographic location of your residence.


Yes and no.  In America's big cities every child has a local school for which they are "in district" and the district can't turn those people away.  The big cities also have a number of "magnet" schools (at least that's what they call them in Chicago). Unlike charter schools, these magnet schools are operated by the school district but operate under a different set of rules than the local schools.  More often than not, you have to test into these schools (fun, for 4 year olds) and then win an admission lottery among the qualified candidates.  A disproportionate amount of resources goes to these magnet schools.  That, along with a population of students made up of kids whose parents are willing to have them prepped and tested, drive them to school every day and otherwise expend a lot of effort on their kids education, means that they are very high performing schools that are more or less free to the kids.

The complaint is that kids from more privileged backgrounds tend to do better in this sort of selection process and that, combined with the resources diverted from neighborhood schools, means that urban public school systems are setting up one school system for the rich and another for the poor.
 
2014-08-14 02:44:04 PM  

Saiga410: I dont know about destroy but the liberal state legislature keeps removing state funds to my school district in order to shift the funds to other schools.  Hell I moved here because of the school dist.  One of the top two in a 50 mile radius.


I don't know what your property tax base is, but it might be for the best.  Here's an article about extremes in Kentucky.  District A gets more than twice the state/fed money as District B but B still gets more than twice as much overall money because of a drastic difference in the property tax base.
http://www.kentucky.com/2014/01/04/3018252/tale-of-two-kentucky-scho ol s-barbourville.html

There's also this major discrepancy from school to school in the public system.  In the same district, one school brings in more than 20x the fundraising money than another school.
http://www.kentucky.com/2014/07/12/3334153/rich-schoolspoor-schools- ac tivity.html?sp=/99/322/&ihp=1
 
2014-08-14 02:47:34 PM  

12349876: Saiga410: I dont know about destroy but the liberal state legislature keeps removing state funds to my school district in order to shift the funds to other schools.  Hell I moved here because of the school dist.  One of the top two in a 50 mile radius.

I don't know what your property tax base is, but it might be for the best.  Here's an article about extremes in Kentucky.  District A gets more than twice the state/fed money as District B but B still gets more than twice as much overall money because of a drastic difference in the property tax base.
http://www.kentucky.com/2014/01/04/3018252/tale-of-two-kentucky-scho ol s-barbourville.html

There's also this major discrepancy from school to school in the public system.  In the same district, one school brings in more than 20x the fundraising money than another school.
http://www.kentucky.com/2014/07/12/3334153/rich-schoolspoor-schools- ac tivity.html?sp=/99/322/&ihp=1


Until people get over the idea that public school exists to nurture their precious snowflake this will never end.  We're supposed to spread the funding around.  That's the whole point.    It shouldn't happen that every kid in my kid's school gets an iPad and in the next zip code they don't even have history books, but that's what happens.
 
2014-08-14 02:50:33 PM  

IvyLady: Isitoveryet: I always thought that what school you went to was dictated by the geographic location of your residence.

Yes and no.  In America's big cities every child has a local school for which they are "in district" and the district can't turn those people away.  The big cities also have a number of "magnet" schools (at least that's what they call them in Chicago). Unlike charter schools, these magnet schools are operated by the school district but operate under a different set of rules than the local schools.  More often than not, you have to test into these schools (fun, for 4 year olds) and then win an admission lottery among the qualified candidates.  A disproportionate amount of resources goes to these magnet schools.  That, along with a population of students made up of kids whose parents are willing to have them prepped and tested, drive them to school every day and otherwise expend a lot of effort on their kids education, means that they are very high performing schools that are more or less free to the kids.

The complaint is that kids from more privileged backgrounds tend to do better in this sort of selection process and that, combined with the resources diverted from neighborhood schools, means that urban public school systems are setting up one school system for the rich and another for the poor.



Thank you for the explanation, i appreciate it.

I personally would like to see educational funding distributed evenly to every school, no exceptions.
 
2014-08-14 02:51:46 PM  

NateAsbestos: monoski: Linux_Yes: Yea, there are "elite" schools in 'murica.  as long as you can afford them...................

But libruls want to fire all the good teachers and replace them with incompetent union members who will vote Democrat, this is what the right believes or is trying to sell to get the public school system replaced with for-profit charter schools.

No shiat, finally our schools can be as good as our telecom companies!


Welcome to the Comcast Academy. We teach our students how to never accept no as an answer.
 
2014-08-14 03:09:23 PM  

IvyLady: The complaint is that kids from more privileged backgrounds tend to do better in this sort of selection process and that, combined with the resources diverted from neighborhood schools, means that urban public school systems are setting up one school system for the rich and another for the poor.


Except at these schools, the poor are well represented. Getting rid of the tests would help get some of those darn smart poors out the schools so their "betters" could get in. It's ultimately why Wilhelm is doing it.
 
2014-08-14 03:11:31 PM  
"Scare quote" addicted Thomas Sowell, the "intelligent" conservative.
 
2014-08-14 03:13:07 PM  

Mrbogey: IvyLady: The complaint is that kids from more privileged backgrounds tend to do better in this sort of selection process and that, combined with the resources diverted from neighborhood schools, means that urban public school systems are setting up one school system for the rich and another for the poor.

Except at these schools, the poor are well represented. Getting rid of the tests would help get some of those darn smart poors out the schools so their "betters" could get in. It's ultimately why Wilhelm is doing it.


No, the magnet schools' demographics are heavily skewed richer and whiter than the cities as a whole.

How would getting rid of the tests keep poorer kids out?  I think the suggestion is that we should go back to the neighborhood school model.
 
2014-08-14 03:18:41 PM  
Tell that to the parents in my rich, white, liberal neighborhood where all the kids go to elite public schools.
 
2014-08-14 03:26:43 PM  

IvyLady: Until people get over the idea that public school exists to nurture their precious snowflake this will never end.  We're supposed to spread the funding around.  That's the whole point.    It shouldn't happen that every kid in my kid's school gets an iPad and in the next zip code they don't even have history books, but that's what happens.


Vermont agreed with you and they passed Act 60 (and later Acts 68 and 130) in order to counteract this discrepancy, which was deemed unconstitutional.  In 1997.  Why other states haven't done so since is completely beyond me.
 
2014-08-14 03:28:50 PM  

The Dog Ate My Homework: Tell that to the parents in my rich, white, liberal neighborhood where all the kids go to elite public schools.


Mine too.  In Chicago, some of the neighborhood schools in the rich neighborhoods are also magnet schools (we have hybrids - small local district then students admitted from around the city if there's room).   But being designated as a magnet school means that we get way more funding.  So, not only do the richer residents' kids do measurably better on the enrollment tests (pretty universal fact) but even the neighborhood schools in the nice neighborhoods get more funding because of the "magnet" designation.

If, instead, Chicago just had 100 schools more or less evenly distributed and all of those schools got the same $$ per student you'd still have inequity between rich and poor neighborhoods but it wouldn't be nearly as big.
 
2014-08-14 03:35:13 PM  

monoski: NateAsbestos: monoski: Linux_Yes: Yea, there are "elite" schools in 'murica.  as long as you can afford them...................

But libruls want to fire all the good teachers and replace them with incompetent union members who will vote Democrat, this is what the right believes or is trying to sell to get the public school system replaced with for-profit charter schools.

No shiat, finally our schools can be as good as our telecom companies!

Welcome to the Comcast Academy. We teach our students how to never accept no know as an answer.


Just a minor tweak.
 
2014-08-14 03:36:59 PM  

The Dog Ate My Homework: Tell that to the parents in my rich, white, liberal neighborhood where all the kids go to elite public schools.


Me too. I'm in northwest Seattle, and all of our schools kick ass. Other parts of town, not so much.
 
2014-08-14 03:40:55 PM  

nmrsnr: Ah yes, the "social degeneracy" of gangsta rap is the cause of black underachievement. Because nobody decried the "social degeneracy" of jazz or rock and roll.


I get your point, but still, I gotta post this:

www.makemymood.com
 
2014-08-14 03:52:00 PM  
Dr. Sowell should have been our first Black President.
 
2014-08-14 04:01:49 PM  

IvyLady: No, the magnet schools' demographics are heavily skewed richer and whiter than the cities as a whole.


Read up on the 3 schools in question. Heavily Asian and very poor.
 
2014-08-14 04:24:46 PM  

IvyLady: Mrbogey: IvyLady: The complaint is that kids from more privileged backgrounds tend to do better in this sort of selection process and that, combined with the resources diverted from neighborhood schools, means that urban public school systems are setting up one school system for the rich and another for the poor.

Except at these schools, the poor are well represented. Getting rid of the tests would help get some of those darn smart poors out the schools so their "betters" could get in. It's ultimately why Wilhelm is doing it.

No, the magnet schools' demographics are heavily skewed richer and whiter than the cities as a whole.

How would getting rid of the tests keep poorer kids out?  I think the suggestion is that we should go back to the neighborhood school model.


Going back to the pure neighborhood model would prevent the smart poor kids with parents who care from having a chance to go to a good school.
 
2014-08-14 04:38:06 PM  

IvyLady: The Dog Ate My Homework: 

If, instead, Chicago just had 100 schools more or less evenly distributed and all of those schools got the same $$ per student you'd still have inequity between rich and poor neighborhoods but it wouldn't be nearly as big.


Ivan like other Russian peasants lived in the Russian wilderness, trying like his neighbors to eke out a living. But one day Gods blessings came in the form of an Angel who told Ivan he could have any wish he wanted. Ivan knew that a goat offered much benefit and so he wished for a goat. And thus it was that Ivan was the only peasant there that had a goat.

Each morning his neighbors would see him milking his goat, getting cheese from the milk, and using the goat for other purposes.

Many of Ivan's neighbors became jealous and as time went on their resentment grew worse.

But as luck would have it his neighbor Igor was visited by the same angel and she told Igor that he too could have any wish he wanted.

Igor thus wished that Ivan's goat would die.
 
2014-08-14 04:45:07 PM  
Are they going to change the schools too? If I remember right (Bronx Sci graduate), there is no coddling at these schools. No remedial classes, no special-ed. and not much room for makeup classes if you fail one. Nobody gets left back. If you fail that bad, you're out. I always felt that if you can't handle the pressure of the entrance exam, you're not ready for the actual classwork.
 
2014-08-14 04:59:03 PM  
I wonder what it's like, to walk around TERRIFIED at all times. Must suck to be an old stupid incompetent racist white dude.
 
2014-08-14 05:15:40 PM  

flondrix: nmrsnr: Ah yes, the "social degeneracy" of gangsta rap is the cause of black underachievement. Because nobody decried the "social degeneracy" of jazz or rock and roll.

I get your point, but still, I gotta post this:

[www.makemymood.com image 540x450]


You have to admit that Lil' Wayne's lyrics are infinitely more interesting than John Coltrane's.
 
2014-08-14 05:16:29 PM  

Fart_Machine: I_Am_Weasel: I thought liberals were educated elitists.   Why would they destroy elite schools?


Thomas Sowell?   Ugh!

Stopped reading there...


He once argued that working in soup kitchens encourages vagrancy.

/Thomass Hole
 
2014-08-14 05:46:06 PM  

IvyLady: The complaint is that kids from more privileged backgrounds tend to do better in this sort of selection process and that, combined with the resources diverted from neighborhood schools, means that urban public school systems are setting up one school system for the rich and another for the poor.


Depending where you live, the question of whether the districts/state are draining resources from the 'normal' schools for the public charters (that being what a mag-net school is) was kinda rendered moot by local gifted/talented programs getting quashed anyhow.  I don't know if NY still has in-house G/T classes at normal schools, but if they don't then there's really no room to complain there.

It's a subset of students that legitimately needs a different curriculum/schedule and it's possible that putting all the students that fit the profile on a different bus is more cost-effective than finding a teacher with the relevant training at each location (the trade-off being that kids most frequently prefer not to change locations though they'll accept taking different classes locally easily).
 
2014-08-14 05:52:45 PM  

happydude45: Dr. Sowell should have been our first Black President.


Someone has a man crush
 
2014-08-14 05:54:02 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: troll article is troll


Never heard of this guy before. Now know to ignore all future articles from him.

Saiga410: I dont know about destroy but the liberal state legislature keeps removing state funds to my school district in order to shift the funds to other schools.  Hell I moved here because of the school dist.  One of the top two in a 50 mile radius.


I know the liberal utopia of my home state of Mississippi has decided that the Adequate Education bill they passed years ago gives way too much money to all schools.
Apparently, they decided we can settle for Less-Than-Adequate.

As to TFA:

These admissions tests have been used for generations, and the students in these schools have had spectacular achievements for generations.

So,....they work? For magnet schools for kids who want to be there? Sounds good.

The biggest political problem is that the teachers' unions don't like them

List of problems the teachers' union has is where? Bueller? Bueller?

The next biggest political problem is that people who don't pass the tests for the elite public high schools don't want to have to pass tests to get in.

And? If you no think good, go make reading wiht boooks.

Thomas Sowell is a nationally syndicated columnist.

That makes me sad. But not as sad as those in this thread supporting him.

So.....total amount of evidence in the article supporting the hypothesis "Liberals are trying to destroy these awesome schools" is........?
Bueller?

PS: I am not the WittyRetort in the comments.
/just an FYI in case someone scrolls down that far.
 
2014-08-14 06:03:37 PM  

Witty_Retort: PS: I am not the WittyRetort in the comments.
/just an FYI in case someone scrolls down that far.


I thought it was you.
 
2014-08-14 06:20:05 PM  

Isitoveryet: Witty_Retort: PS: I am not the WittyRetort in the comments.
/just an FYI in case someone scrolls down that far.

I thought it was you.


I just saw his name. But I clicked the profile and, wow, he actually sounds like me.

Example from him that I will use in the future: I wish I could make you understand what "cognitive dissonance" means, but I cannot do it in monosyllabic terms.

Weird/funny/creepy on about equal levels.
 
2014-08-14 06:23:51 PM  

Jim_Callahan: IvyLady: The complaint is that kids from more privileged backgrounds tend to do better in this sort of selection process and that, combined with the resources diverted from neighborhood schools, means that urban public school systems are setting up one school system for the rich and another for the poor.

Depending where you live, the question of whether the districts/state are draining resources from the 'normal' schools for the public charters (that being what a mag-net school is) was kinda rendered moot by local gifted/talented programs getting quashed anyhow.  I don't know if NY still has in-house G/T classes at normal schools, but if they don't then there's really no room to complain there.

It's a subset of students that legitimately needs a different curriculum/schedule and it's possible that putting all the students that fit the profile on a different bus is more cost-effective than finding a teacher with the relevant training at each location (the trade-off being that kids most frequently prefer not to change locations though they'll accept taking different classes locally easily).


I grew up in east LA in the 80s - almost all minorities though a large variety of them, as we had a major eastern Europe population.  I was in the GATE program.  I also had speech therapy for three years and two learning disabilities.  If there had been a magnate school, I probably wouldn't have made it in - I doubt anyone would have even suggested I apply.  They only found out I was "gifted" through an accident a teacher made, and even then I'm told there were plenty of, "No, it can't be..." attitudes until I was officially tested.

I totally get that having advanced classes available is a good thing.  But not everyone is advanced in the same way or about everything they touch.
 
2014-08-14 06:29:05 PM  

IvyLady: The Dog Ate My Homework: Tell that to the parents in my rich, white, liberal neighborhood where all the kids go to elite public schools.

Mine too.  In Chicago, some of the neighborhood schools in the rich neighborhoods are also magnet schools (we have hybrids - small local district then students admitted from around the city if there's room).   But being designated as a magnet school means that we get way more funding.  So, not only do the richer residents' kids do measurably better on the enrollment tests (pretty universal fact) but even the neighborhood schools in the nice neighborhoods get more funding because of the "magnet" designation.

If, instead, Chicago just had 100 schools more or less evenly distributed and all of those schools got the same $$ per student you'd still have inequity between rich and poor neighborhoods but it wouldn't be nearly as big.


Illinois is pretty bad in terms of per-pupil funding disparity, both because of the ignorant and self-harming "we don't want to fund Chicago" mentality of downstaters and because of the tit-for-tat nature of Illinois politics. But, California in the 70s came to the conclusion that funding schools based on local property values was inherently discriminatory, and mandated that the vast majority of school funding come from the state, on a per-pupil basis. Curiously, this hasn't eliminated disparity in the least. The restrictions placed on districts' ability to raise funds through property taxes makes it difficult for districts to make necessary infrastructure improvements, something that hits poorer districts harder because they don't have parents able to donate to the PTA's buy-a-new-library drive, or drop $200 on crappy fundraiser garbage so their snowflakes can ride a limo to Chuck E. Cheese (true story, wrote the check this morning.)
 
2014-08-14 06:32:07 PM  

Jclark666: IvyLady: The Dog Ate My Homework: Tell that to the parents in my rich, white, liberal neighborhood where all the kids go to elite public schools.

Mine too.  In Chicago, some of the neighborhood schools in the rich neighborhoods are also magnet schools (we have hybrids - small local district then students admitted from around the city if there's room).   But being designated as a magnet school means that we get way more funding.  So, not only do the richer residents' kids do measurably better on the enrollment tests (pretty universal fact) but even the neighborhood schools in the nice neighborhoods get more funding because of the "magnet" designation.

If, instead, Chicago just had 100 schools more or less evenly distributed and all of those schools got the same $$ per student you'd still have inequity between rich and poor neighborhoods but it wouldn't be nearly as big.

Illinois is pretty bad in terms of per-pupil funding disparity, both because of the ignorant and self-harming "we don't want to fund Chicago" mentality of downstaters and because of the tit-for-tat nature of Illinois politics. But, California in the 70s came to the conclusion that funding schools based on local property values was inherently discriminatory, and mandated that the vast majority of school funding come from the state, on a per-pupil basis. Curiously, this hasn't eliminated disparity in the least. The restrictions placed on districts' ability to raise funds through property taxes makes it difficult for districts to make necessary infrastructure improvements, something that hits poorer districts harder because they don't have parents able to donate to the PTA's buy-a-new-library drive, or drop $200 on crappy fundraiser garbage so their snowflakes can ride a limo to Chuck E. Cheese (true story, wrote the check this morning.)


That's true.  As a Chicago resident I help fund schools all over the state but if I go beyond the collar counties and suggest that all Illinois schools should be funded equally from the available pool of revenue I get called a communist and told that they don't go to work to pay for "those people".  

/I wonder who "those people are"?
//not really. I know.
 
2014-08-14 07:50:01 PM  
Jclark666: ...California in the 70s came to the conclusion that funding schools based on local property values was inherently discriminatory, and mandated that the vast majority of school funding come from the state, on a per-pupil basis...

one effect of this is that school funding is based on pupil attendance. so my kids' schools hassle the living shiat out of us if the kids are out sick. the last time my daughter got sick, i called the office to let them know; still got three calls during the day about my daughter being absent.
 
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