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(Alaska Dispatch News)   Don't you hate it when Air Traffic Control tells you to fly at 2,000 feet towards a 4,000ft mountain?   (adn.com ) divider line
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11325 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Aug 2014 at 10:54 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-11 08:27:56 PM  
www.pirate4x4.com
 
2014-08-11 09:47:21 PM  

doglover: [www.pirate4x4.com image 314x400]


Move along.  Nothing to see here...now.
 
2014-08-11 11:02:21 PM  
A hacker group could have taken over the airplane's instrument computers... somehow.

resources3.news.com.au
 
2014-08-11 11:03:45 PM  
"Sir, this is a lighthouse..."
 
2014-08-11 11:05:10 PM  
PIC is ultimately responsible for safe operation. Know the procedure or have a plate available. No excuse for anything else.
 
2014-08-11 11:10:03 PM  
A 20-year search of the NTSB accident database found only one previous instance where air traffic control was cited as a factor in an Alaska accident.

The crash happened last year.  How could they have been searching for a similar case for the last 20 years?
 
2014-08-11 11:10:06 PM  
I only hate it for a short time.
 
2014-08-11 11:10:34 PM  

Next week's Tom Sawyer: PIC is ultimately responsible for safe operation. Know the procedure or have a plate available. No excuse for anything else.


Center ATC'er for 29 years and yes the pilot is ultimately responsible but we have to be very careful with less experienced ones who think we are infallible.  That clearance left a lot to be desired.
 
2014-08-11 11:20:52 PM  

Next week's Tom Sawyer: PIC is ultimately responsible for safe operation. Know the procedure or have a plate available. No excuse for anything else.


I think that should be know the procedure and have a plate available.
 
2014-08-11 11:26:54 PM  

sdd2000: Next week's Tom Sawyer: PIC is ultimately responsible for safe operation. Know the procedure or have a plate available. No excuse for anything else.

I think that should be know the procedure and have a plate available.


What a plate may look like:
img.fark.net
 
2014-08-11 11:28:49 PM  

BeerLion: That clearance left a lot to be desired.


That.

The article didn't really explain it so I looked at the plate.. Can't find anything to explain where 2000 feet came from. Doesn't make any sense.
 
2014-08-11 11:34:20 PM  
RIP Paul Wellstone.  Sometimes I wonder how much better the world would have been had your plane not crashed.
 
2014-08-11 11:38:54 PM  

WelldeadLink: sdd2000: Next week's Tom Sawyer: PIC is ultimately responsible for safe operation. Know the procedure or have a plate available. No excuse for anything else.

I think that should be know the procedure and have a plate available.

What a plate may look like:
[img.fark.net image 500x260]


I think this is more in line with what the FAA would like for part 135 or 91.503 purposes.

img.fark.net
 
2014-08-11 11:40:02 PM  
Damn. I'd be halfway expecting a clearance like that in Mexico/Central/South America. Trust, but verify.
 
2014-08-11 11:42:10 PM  
"Minimum en route altitude here is forty-four hun . . .". --Last words of copilot of Texas Air 655.
 
2014-08-11 11:52:34 PM  
You're coming in too low!

www.impdb.org

/ Still not over Mucho Grande
 
2014-08-11 11:56:31 PM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: RIP Paul Wellstone.  Sometimes I wonder how much better the world would have been had your plane not crashed.


Not relevant to this thread, but... much, much better.
 
2014-08-11 11:59:54 PM  
Good luck, we're all counting you.
 
2014-08-12 12:04:00 AM  
They'll get out of the way
 
2014-08-12 12:05:48 AM  
Do you really feel safe with these guys in charge of your aircraft?

linsonco.com
 
2014-08-12 12:06:05 AM  
get ready for more of this as trainees with little to no aviation background are coming out of the faa another academy and headed to the big show.

but hey, they got diversity now.

/not just an old wooden ship
//seriously...look up faa hiring and the biographical questionnaire scandal
 
2014-08-12 12:23:23 AM  
img1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-08-12 12:40:35 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-08-12 12:58:20 AM  
Haha, it reminds me of the way some people post comments online.  The air controller used "as published" to supply the altitude, rather than just state the altitude straight out.  Why say what you mean when you can reference something else and expect others to look it up to get the information?
 
2014-08-12 01:06:50 AM  
The Air Traffic Controller should have known this approach COLD. No excuses.
 Though the PIC should have looked at the plate and seen the minimum, flying in instrument conditions does occupy a large portion of your time. He depended on ATC to know their job.

/ex-controller and private pilot
 
2014-08-12 01:19:20 AM  
There are too many controlled flight into terrain crashes and there shouldn't be anymore.

Design a GPS receiver.  It's got a map of the world in it giving the minimum safe altitude everywhere.  (This is well within the capability of modern flash drives.  You don't need great precision for the most part as in most places you can define pixels of say 1/2 mile on a side and in many cases even bigger.)  The box goes in the cockpit, an antenna goes up on top.  It projects the path of the airplane, when it intersects terrain it starts letting you know, when it's getting close to the point you can't climb over the terrain it starts screaming it's head off.

Eventually you integrate this into the autopilot so that it will take action on it's own if the pilots don't take action
 
2014-08-12 01:30:41 AM  

Loren: There are too many controlled flight into terrain crashes and there shouldn't be anymore.

Design a GPS receiver.  It's got a map of the world in it giving the minimum safe altitude everywhere.  (This is well within the capability of modern flash drives.  You don't need great precision for the most part as in most places you can define pixels of say 1/2 mile on a side and in many cases even bigger.)  The box goes in the cockpit, an antenna goes up on top.  It projects the path of the airplane, when it intersects terrain it starts letting you know, when it's getting close to the point you can't climb over the terrain it starts screaming it's head off.

Eventually you integrate this into the autopilot so that it will take action on it's own if the pilots don't take action


Its called GPWS (Ground Proximity Warning System).

Been around awhile. Expensive.
 
2014-08-12 01:48:29 AM  

Yaw String: Its called GPWS (Ground Proximity Warning System).

Been around awhile. Expensive.


GPWS has been getting cheaper for a while now, very possible the class of aircraft this was would have a type onboard. Of course, pilots don't always listen to GPWS when they should... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlPL_nof2lA
 
2014-08-12 01:55:48 AM  

Yaw String: Loren: There are too many controlled flight into terrain crashes and there shouldn't be anymore.

Design a GPS receiver.  It's got a map of the world...


They do/did....
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capstone_Program
 
2014-08-12 02:03:12 AM  

costermonger: BeerLion: That clearance left a lot to be desired.

That.

The article didn't really explain it so I looked at the plate.. Can't find anything to explain where 2000 feet came from. Doesn't make any sense.


Notice the 1900 ft between ZEDAG  and  FIXUV? Depending on what direction he was coming from (guessing east or southeast), 2000 ft. would have been adequate had he passed ZEDAG and then proceeded directly to FIXUV.

Its easier to see the surrounding terrain using this:

http://skyvector.com/

type PADL in search
 
2014-08-12 02:06:25 AM  
moviemorlocks.com
 
2014-08-12 02:22:46 AM  

The_Mad_Dutchman: Yaw String: Its called GPWS (Ground Proximity Warning System).

Been around awhile. Expensive.

GPWS has been getting cheaper for a while now, very possible the class of aircraft this was would have a type onboard. Of course, pilots don't always listen to GPWS when they should... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlPL_nof2lA


Our EGWPS system on the jet I fly is one of the pricier ones. It's a bit late to call a sales rep at Honeywell,  but with a quick check of the internet I'm seeing some systems as low as 10K.
So you are absolutely right, they have come way down in price.

/old dog can still learn
 
2014-08-12 02:31:26 AM  

Loren: There are too many controlled flight into terrain crashes and there shouldn't be anymore.

Design a GPS receiver.  It's got a map of the world in it giving the minimum safe altitude everywhere.  (This is well within the capability of modern flash drives.  You don't need great precision for the most part as in most places you can define pixels of say 1/2 mile on a side and in many cases even bigger.)  The box goes in the cockpit, an antenna goes up on top.  It projects the path of the airplane, when it intersects terrain it starts letting you know, when it's getting close to the point you can't climb over the terrain it starts screaming it's head off.

Eventually you integrate this into the autopilot so that it will take action on it's own if the pilots don't take action


You need input of your altimeter into that box because GPS is notoriously bad at determining height but other than that, you're good.
 
2014-08-12 02:40:19 AM  
discussions.texasbowhunter.com
 
2014-08-12 03:29:43 AM  
I had RNAV on the input of an auto pilot and when it was witched on, it would point you in the direction of a nearby VORTAC which was on top of a mountain if you were below it even if you had tuned different VORs.  If you were above it, it worked fine.

Why don't the fly in the clouds in Nepal?  Because sometimes they are rocks in them.
 
2014-08-12 03:39:51 AM  

TheOther: A 20-year search of the NTSB accident database found only one previous instance where air traffic control was cited as a factor in an Alaska accident.

The crash happened last year.  How could they have been searching for a similar case for the last 20 years?


They stopped searching when they found this one.
 
2014-08-12 04:23:45 AM  
True story:
I am on the local Search and Rescue unit. We were called out on a crashed private plane in the hills near the coast. Two people were killed. A mechanic at the local airport walked out and told them if they flew near the coast that there was cloud cover down to 2,000 feet so stay above that. He logged doing so. Six minutes later they flew into the coast range at about 1,700 feet. We got alerted when the emergency beacon locator was picked up by satellite.
We found them at about 1,800 feet because they bounced that much on impact.
 
2014-08-12 06:11:36 AM  
Keep 'em at 24,000

/No, feet
 
2014-08-12 07:25:56 AM  
Well the good news is that the pilot tied the world record for lowest flight.
 
2014-08-12 07:26:52 AM  
As an ATC, if you're a pilot you damned well better follow my instructions and go where I CFIT to send you.
 
2014-08-12 07:31:23 AM  

Outlaw2097: get ready for more of this as trainees with little to no aviation background are coming out of the faa another academy and headed to the big show.

but hey, they got diversity now.

/not just an old wooden ship
//seriously...look up faa hiring and the biographical questionnaire scandal


The diversity hires don't go to Alaska, it's too cold, and they don't speak jive.
 
2014-08-12 07:38:20 AM  

dittybopper: As an ATC, if you're a pilot you damned well better follow my instructions and go where I CFIT to send you.


That's fine, as long as it's ok to charge you with criminally negligent homicide if you issue bad instructions.
 
2014-08-12 07:39:14 AM  

Carousel Beast: dittybopper: As an ATC, if you're a pilot you damned well better follow my instructions and go where I CFIT to send you.

That's fine, as long as it's ok to charge you with criminally negligent homicide if you issue bad instructions.


I guess you didn't see what I did there, did you?
 
2014-08-12 07:41:51 AM  
www.avsim.com

"Pull Up. Pull Up. Pull Up. Pull Up. Pull- Fark it, do what you want. They can reload me."
 
2014-08-12 07:44:20 AM  
MythDragon:

That was stupid.  What the hell is wrong with you?
 
2014-08-12 07:48:35 AM  

dittybopper: Carousel Beast: dittybopper: As an ATC, if you're a pilot you damned well better follow my instructions and go where I CFIT to send you.

That's fine, as long as it's ok to charge you with criminally negligent homicide if you issue bad instructions.

I guess you didn't see what I did there, did you?


Immediately after I posted.

In my defense, I just got up from not sleeping all night.

/Sheepish
 
2014-08-12 08:04:52 AM  

Carousel Beast: dittybopper: Carousel Beast: dittybopper: As an ATC, if you're a pilot you damned well better follow my instructions and go where I CFIT to send you.

That's fine, as long as it's ok to charge you with criminally negligent homicide if you issue bad instructions.

I guess you didn't see what I did there, did you?

Immediately after I posted.

In my defense, I just got up from not sleeping all night.

/Sheepish


Another revelation:  I'm not actually an ATC, I just play one for joke purposes.
 
2014-08-12 08:54:34 AM  
At *or above* subby.  At or above 2,000.  Pilot was a dumbfark for not opting for the 'above' part of the instructions.
 
2014-08-12 09:20:44 AM  

Yaw String: Notice the 1900 ft between ZEDAG  and  FIXUV? Depending on what direction he was coming from (guessing east or southeast), 2000 ft. would have been adequate had he passed ZEDAG and then proceeded directly to FIXUV.


Yeah, I saw that, but it still makes no sense in the context of that clearance. It doesn't absolve the pilots (they weren't being vectored, so it was their responsibility - and their failure to remember that got them killed) but that clearance sure implies that it's safe to descend to 2000 *now*, on the way to ZEDAG.
 
2014-08-12 09:48:21 AM  

costermonger: Yaw String: Notice the 1900 ft between ZEDAG  and  FIXUV? Depending on what direction he was coming from (guessing east or southeast), 2000 ft. would have been adequate had he passed ZEDAG and then proceeded directly to FIXUV.

Yeah, I saw that, but it still makes no sense in the context of that clearance. It doesn't absolve the pilots (they weren't being vectored, so it was their responsibility - and their failure to remember that got them killed) but that clearance sure implies that it's safe to descend to 2000 *now*, on the way to ZEDAG.


It means it IS safe to descend to 2000 now. Then once on the published sections you maintain the charted altitudes when they drop below that. The problem is that after they got that clearance they asked for the hold. The clearance was only valid if they went straight into the approach. When ATC said to hold "as published" I guarantee that they just looked at the course. The reason is that ATC can oftentimes descend you lower than what your chart indicates because the altitudes aren't always purely for terrian or are directional in nature. Our charts aren't always clear on which it is. In this case the controller neglected to cancel the decent clearance.

/airline pilot
//previously flew in Alaska
///flew into that airport before
////slashies
 
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