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(Ars Technica)   Father of PGP encryption states the obvious: The corporations giving you "free" services are gleefully in bed with every government on Earth   ( arstechnica.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Silent Circle, PGP, Phil Zimmermann, PGP encryption, Dutch, NIST, phone company, RSA  
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2933 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Aug 2014 at 9:00 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-09 05:35:04 PM  
If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.
 
2014-08-09 09:05:06 PM  
Nothing is free.
Bandwidth, servers, staff all costs money.
If you are not being charged, they are doing something somewhere to make money.

Whining about services like google or Facebook selling all your data is stupid. You signed up for it and willingly give it to them.
 
2014-08-09 09:10:55 PM  
^ to the posters above.

This is about spying, where does money even come into play?

It's one thing if they use the data to push ads or collect data to build traffic maps.

It's another thing if they're giving the government data that can be used to lock up dissenting folks.
 
2014-08-09 09:15:11 PM  

lordargent: ^ to the posters above.

This is about spying, where does money even come into play?

It's one thing if they use the data to push ads or collect data to build traffic maps.

It's another thing if they're giving the government data that can be used to lock up dissenting folks.


If you operate in a country, you are covered by their laws.
Meaning if the come to you for data, you have no choice but to give it.

If ding dongs weren't putting everything up on the internet, using google, Facebook, etc. they would have nothing to give.
 
2014-08-09 09:21:19 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: lordargent: ^ to the posters above.

This is about spying, where does money even come into play?

It's one thing if they use the data to push ads or collect data to build traffic maps.

It's another thing if they're giving the government data that can be used to lock up dissenting folks.

If you operate in a country, you are covered by their laws.
Meaning if the come to you for data, you have no choice but to give it.

If ding dongs weren't putting everything up on the internet, using google, Facebook, etc. they would have nothing to give.


Or you know, those dumb companies transferring data on their own internal network links. They should expect that to be snarfed up too, right?
 
2014-08-09 09:29:23 PM  

WayToBlue: Herr Flick's Revenge: lordargent: ^ to the posters above.

This is about spying, where does money even come into play?

It's one thing if they use the data to push ads or collect data to build traffic maps.

It's another thing if they're giving the government data that can be used to lock up dissenting folks.

If you operate in a country, you are covered by their laws.
Meaning if the come to you for data, you have no choice but to give it.

If ding dongs weren't putting everything up on the internet, using google, Facebook, etc. they would have nothing to give.

Or you know, those dumb companies transferring data on their own internal network links. They should expect that to be snarfed up too, right?


Yes.
 
2014-08-09 09:40:40 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: If you operate in a country, you are covered by their laws.
Meaning if the come to you for data, you have no choice but to give it.


Hence, I don't get where the 'you are the product' argument applies here.

This isn't about getting services for free, this is about governments spying on their people (and not paying shiat for it I assume).

ANALOGY TIME

Imagine a provider is a store, and they've got all of this stuff for sale.

An advertiser comes in, and the provider says "you can buy anything you want on the shelves, but the locked cabinets are not for you".

Now this provider owns another store, and one of the clerks from that store comes over and says "hey, we're out of suchandsuch, can I grab a few from the locked cabinets", and the provider says "sure go ahead, it's on the house".

Now a government agent comes into the store, and the provider goes "take anything you want ... including the stuff that we have locked in the back room that nobody else even knows about".
 
2014-08-09 09:42:39 PM  

lordargent: ^ to the posters above.

This is about spying, where does money even come into play?

It's one thing if they use the data to push ads or collect data to build traffic maps.

It's another thing if they're giving the government data that can be used to lock up dissenting folks.


I'm not disagreeing with you, necessarily, but understand that if those companies can sell your information, the government can demand it.  I don't think it's right, and if you've seen even a handful of my posts in the NSA related threads, you know I don't like it nor do I think it should be legal, but you're a fool if you think it doesn't happen.

Just best not to let them have that data in the first place.  Don't carry a cellphone or a tablet/whatever with you.
 
2014-08-09 09:49:59 PM  
can't stop the signal...

this goes both ways
 
2014-08-09 09:50:31 PM  

dittybopper: you're a fool if you think it doesn't happen


Of course it happens.

I'm just pointing out that the data they sell to advertisers is different from the data they allow the government to have for free.

The first two posters mentioned 'you are the product', which I think applies to the former case (selling data to advertisers), but not the latter (giving data to the government for free).

IE

The argument isn't what they sell to advertisers or use for their own internal use, in exchange for providing you with a free service.

The argument here is what they're giving away to the government for free (and aren't giving you jack shiat for).

// don't let them have it indeed, easier said than done, unfortunately.
 
2014-08-09 09:58:00 PM  

lordargent: dittybopper: you're a fool if you think it doesn't happen

Of course it happens.

I'm just pointing out that the data they sell to advertisers is different from the data they allow the government to have for free.

The first two posters mentioned 'you are the product', which I think applies to the former case (selling data to advertisers), but not the latter (giving data to the government for free).

IE

The argument isn't what they sell to advertisers or use for their own internal use, in exchange for providing you with a free service.

The argument here is what they're giving away to the government for free (and aren't giving you jack shiat for).

// don't let them have it indeed, easier said than done, unfortunately.


If you put anything out on the phone lines or internet, it can be intercepted.
If you store anything on a computer, someone else can access it.
If carry a cell phone, it is tracking your location-it's how they work.

The only way to hide is be like the Unabomber-live in a shack in the middle of nowhere.
 
2014-08-09 10:00:42 PM  
should have stood his ground
 
2014-08-09 10:01:05 PM  

dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.


Wait!  I got pgp 2.6.2 for free.

/from MIT
//Where RSA was created in 1977
///as source that I compiled myself
 
2014-08-09 10:10:00 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.

Wait!  I got pgp 2.6.2 for free.

/from MIT
//Where RSA was created in 1977
///as source that I compiled myself


And they sold you to the NSA, Scientologist and pbs.
 
2014-08-09 10:12:03 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.

Wait!  I got pgp 2.6.2 for free.

/from MIT
//Where RSA was created in 1977
///as source that I compiled myself


How do you know the source didn't have any back doors?
 
2014-08-09 10:13:34 PM  

Tobin_Lam: How do you know the source didn't have any back doors?


Because they don't need it ... they already built the backdoors into his hardware.
 
2014-08-09 10:14:21 PM  
Also, I should probably mention that I process data for a living, and came to some scary realizations as to what you could do with algorithms.

So I'm really getting a kick, and a tingle up my spine.
 
2014-08-09 10:23:15 PM  

lordargent: Also, I should probably mention that I process data for a living, and came to some scary realizations as to what you could do with algorithms.

So I'm really getting a kick, and a tingle up my spine.


I signed up for UPS' service that automatically alerts you when a package is headed your way. The verification questions were about my family, cars, and where I've previously lived, all multiple choice. They weren't asking for this information that had nothing to do with shipping packages, they already knew it.
 
2014-08-09 10:34:12 PM  

Tobin_Lam: Vlad_the_Inaner: dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.

Wait!  I got pgp 2.6.2 for free.

/from MIT
//Where RSA was created in 1977
///as source that I compiled myself

How do you know the source didn't have any back doors?


I don't know.  But I did review it, and didn't see anything obvious, and the fact I could meant that people better then me could review it too.
 
2014-08-09 10:35:17 PM  

dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.


And if you are paying, you're both.
 
2014-08-09 10:40:14 PM  

lordargent: Tobin_Lam: How do you know the source didn't have any back doors?

Because they don't need it ... they already built the backdoors into his hardware.


And $5 wrenches were only a dollar then.

/386's of back then are probably less likely to have hardware backdoors than then nascent secure computing platforms they keep edging towards these days
 
2014-08-09 10:51:26 PM  

Tobin_Lam: lordargent: Also, I should probably mention that I process data for a living, and came to some scary realizations as to what you could do with algorithms.

So I'm really getting a kick, and a tingle up my spine.

I signed up for UPS' service that automatically alerts you when a package is headed your way. The verification questions were about my family, cars, and where I've previously lived, all multiple choice. They weren't asking for this information that had nothing to do with shipping packages, they already knew it.


I did the sign-up for Hurricane Sandy relief for my parents.  Verification questions included known associates.  It was pretty scary.
 
2014-08-09 11:00:45 PM  
I think the government's interfering with my DNS settings... I thought I had clicked on a Fark comments thread, but based on how much ignorance and paranoia there is here I think I ended up at Slashdot instead.
 
2014-08-09 11:04:34 PM  

poot_rootbeer: I think the government's interfering with my DNS settings... I thought I had clicked on a Fark comments thread, but based on how much ignorance and paranoia there is here I think I ended up at Slashdot instead.


Close, it's Prison Planet. You're through the looking glass now.
 
2014-08-09 11:05:54 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: Tobin_Lam: Vlad_the_Inaner: dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.

Wait!  I got pgp 2.6.2 for free.

/from MIT
//Where RSA was created in 1977
///as source that I compiled myself

How do you know the source didn't have any back doors?

I don't know.  But I did review it, and didn't see anything obvious, and the fact I could meant that people better then me could review it too.


We see how well that philosophy worked out for OpenSSL.
 
2014-08-09 11:08:49 PM  

dittybopper:  Don't carry a cellphone or a tablet/whatever with you.


And this is where most of the world checks out. The advantages offered by a cell phone are too numerous for a nebulous charge of 'spying' to hold much validity compared to them.  I happen to agree with you insofar as I believe that you'd have to be a fool to think the Fed isn't spying on its own citizens.

It's a probability and statistics and funding game.

The NSA/CIA/FBI/HS have limited budgets and manpower. If they can't even manage to find a pair of brothers planning on blowing up Boston, what makes you think they A) give two shiats about you, B) would be able to track you if they did?

Hell, if the spy network works well enough to preclude using cell phones and tablets and computers, why do we have illegal drug facilities in the US? Occam's razor applied here says that the simplest answer is 'unless you're an actual target of interest you will be completely ignored' which will mean high ranking official in a government or similar organization (like, say, Hell's Angels or the Bloods/Crips/Latin Kings/etc.) or a terrorist/known spy/etc.
 
2014-08-09 11:09:43 PM  

dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.


What about free speech?
Am I a product of democracy then?

Seriously, there are lots of things that are free where you are not in a customer/product relationship.

Free software
Free love
Free tibet
 
2014-08-09 11:12:30 PM  

Metastatic Capricorn: I did the sign-up for Hurricane Sandy relief for my parents. Verification questions included known associates. It was pretty scary.


Wait til you join Linked-in, and see what they dredge up.
 
2014-08-09 11:17:43 PM  
So is he saying this is why we should buy a $700 Blackphone rather than use Text Secure & Redphone & Signal?  Moxie's gonna sell us out to the feds?

Does he mean Tor has backdoors for Putin?  OpenBSD is a front for the NSA?

Many security and privacy people do this for the "love of the game" and their ethics.
 
2014-08-09 11:20:09 PM  

Tobin_Lam: We see how well that philosophy worked out for OpenSSL.


Just for scale, compare that to Internet Explorer being open all versions between 6 and 11
 
2014-08-09 11:54:31 PM  
Next thing you'll tell me is that visa knows what I've been buying with my visa card!
 
2014-08-10 12:34:50 AM  

Shakin_Haitian: Next thing you'll tell me is that visa knows what I've been buying with my visa card!


You think it itemizes instead of just taking the merchant's total?
 
2014-08-10 01:29:36 AM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: You think [credit card companies] itemize instead of just taking the merchant's total?


It probably depends on both the bank and the merchant, but there are definitely cases where the credit card company does receive the itemized receipt.

I used a corporate card to buy some supplies for a recruiting function; when it reached the internal accounting / expenses system, it did have the individual items on it.  (If it makes a difference, bank was Citibank, merchant was Staples.)
 
2014-08-10 02:19:57 AM  

kroonermanblack: dittybopper:  Don't carry a cellphone or a tablet/whatever with you.

And this is where most of the world checks out. The advantages offered by a cell phone are too numerous for a nebulous charge of 'spying' to hold much validity compared to them.  I happen to agree with you insofar as I believe that you'd have to be a fool to think the Fed isn't spying on its own citizens.

It's a probability and statistics and funding game.

The NSA/CIA/FBI/HS have limited budgets and manpower. If they can't even manage to find a pair of brothers planning on blowing up Boston, what makes you think they A) give two shiats about you, B) would be able to track you if they did?

Hell, if the spy network works well enough to preclude using cell phones and tablets and computers, why do we have illegal drug facilities in the US? Occam's razor applied here says that the simplest answer is 'unless you're an actual target of interest you will be completely ignored' which will mean high ranking official in a government or similar organization (like, say, Hell's Angels or the Bloods/Crips/Latin Kings/etc.) or a terrorist/known spy/etc.


Or, depending on the party in power, Tea Party member, illegal alien, abortion clinician, animal rights activist, 2nd amendment supporter, big donor to the opposition party ...
 
2014-08-10 02:22:43 AM  
I built my computer, network, and inter connects out of blackjack and hookers, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies. In fact, forget the internet!

I think all of us who work in the industry can agree on one thing: we are sooo boned. Hardware, software, communication, even snail mail, it's all bugged. Doing anything knowledgeable on or with a computer is almost a crime, or at least viewed as 'hacking'. The battle for privacy has been lost. The best you can do is not get noticed, and obfuscate it anyway.

The safest communication is probably trusted host to trusted host chemical. If you know what I mean, and I think you do.

My dna is the encrypted message, and the recipient is the future.
 
2014-08-10 02:27:42 AM  
It's disgusting how people are ok with the government spying on free people.
 
2014-08-10 02:34:59 AM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: If you put anything out on the phone lines or internet, it can be intercepted.
If you store anything on a computer, someone else can access it.


That isn't actually true.  I mean not even a little bit true.

My good friend "mathematics" would like to have a word with you on the subject.
 
2014-08-10 02:53:33 AM  

bk3k: Herr Flick's Revenge: If you put anything out on the phone lines or internet, it can be intercepted.
If you store anything on a computer, someone else can access it.

That isn't actually true.  I mean not even a little bit true.

My good friend "mathematics" would like to have a word with you on the subject.


Are you disagreeing with intercepted or accessed? Sure, they can and do intercept traffic from if not all then at least the traffic over all the major telcos in the United States. By law, CALEA. It's been in effect for at least a decade and there are specific capabilites you must have in place. Again, at least in the US.

Whether they can read the intercepted data is a different matter altogether. I'm interested to know if your mathematics friend is encryption. He's a good guy but he always tells me the same xkcd joke about a $5 wrench.
 
2014-08-10 03:12:30 AM  

DubtodaIll: It's disgusting how people are ok with the government spying on free people.


Free people? The more IT grows the less free we get. Even the concept of being free is largely illusory, ideology mouthed by the powers that be to get us to accept conditions without looking too deeply into them.

If you think we are "free" then ask yourself if you can opt out of taxes. Or registering with Selective Services if a guy. Why do we have blue laws? Why do we have laws making the human body obscene? Get randomly searched at airports and on the streets of NYC? Hell, why can't you start a taxi service in any major city or go cruising around certain towns? Why is it that you often can't buy a new home in a development without accepting a covenant established by the developer?

There are many more examples of how not-free we are, some longstanding and some much more recent. It's a bunch of BS and has been since the beginning.
 
2014-08-10 03:20:57 AM  

BolloxReader: DubtodaIll: It's disgusting how people are ok with the government spying on free people.

Free people? The more IT grows the less free we get. Even the concept of being free is largely illusory, ideology mouthed by the powers that be to get us to accept conditions without looking too deeply into them.

If you think we are "free" then ask yourself if you can opt out of taxes. Or registering with Selective Services if a guy. Why do we have blue laws? Why do we have laws making the human body obscene? Get randomly searched at airports and on the streets of NYC? Hell, why can't you start a taxi service in any major city or go cruising around certain towns? Why is it that you often can't buy a new home in a development without accepting a covenant established by the developer?

There are many more examples of how not-free we are, some longstanding and some much more recent. It's a bunch of BS and has been since the beginning.


There's a big difference between laws and ordinances necessary for an orderly society and the government being able to and taking full advantage of knowing all the tractable habits of the population.
 
2014-08-10 06:01:33 AM  

DubtodaIll: BolloxReader: DubtodaIll: It's disgusting how people are ok with the government spying on free people.

Free people? The more IT grows the less free we get. Even the concept of being free is largely illusory, ideology mouthed by the powers that be to get us to accept conditions without looking too deeply into them.

If you think we are "free" then ask yourself if you can opt out of taxes. Or registering with Selective Services if a guy. Why do we have blue laws? Why do we have laws making the human body obscene? Get randomly searched at airports and on the streets of NYC? Hell, why can't you start a taxi service in any major city or go cruising around certain towns? Why is it that you often can't buy a new home in a development without accepting a covenant established by the developer?

There are many more examples of how not-free we are, some longstanding and some much more recent. It's a bunch of BS and has been since the beginning.

There's a big difference between laws and ordinances necessary for an orderly society and the government being able to and taking full advantage of knowing all the tractable habits of the population.


It doesn't matter what the law is - the people pushing for it deem it necessary for an orderly society.  The US existed for how many years before a federal income tax....but now....it is necessary.  I used to be able to fly without someone touching my balls or digging through my bag....but now it is necessary.  Advocates of these laws *always* say they are necessary, but we know, they aren't.  Remember prohibition?  Outlawing alcohol was necessary enough we passed the laws, but then we changed our minds.  Same with weed.  How many lives were ruined by cops enforcing laws against marijuana because it was necessary...but now it isn't?  It was necessary to outlaw gays getting married - it would destroy our families, except, now it isn't.

No knock warrants that allow trained para-military to break into your house at 2am and shoot anyone who doesn't immediately comply - we say these are necessary.  And yet, lots of places don't allow it.
 
2014-08-10 07:31:42 AM  

dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.


joinnra.nra.org
 
2014-08-10 08:49:57 AM  

jjorsett: kroonermanblack: dittybopper:  Don't carry a cellphone or a tablet/whatever with you.

And this is where most of the world checks out. The advantages offered by a cell phone are too numerous for a nebulous charge of 'spying' to hold much validity compared to them.  I happen to agree with you insofar as I believe that you'd have to be a fool to think the Fed isn't spying on its own citizens.

It's a probability and statistics and funding game.

The NSA/CIA/FBI/HS have limited budgets and manpower. If they can't even manage to find a pair of brothers planning on blowing up Boston, what makes you think they A) give two shiats about you, B) would be able to track you if they did?

Hell, if the spy network works well enough to preclude using cell phones and tablets and computers, why do we have illegal drug facilities in the US? Occam's razor applied here says that the simplest answer is 'unless you're an actual target of interest you will be completely ignored' which will mean high ranking official in a government or similar organization (like, say, Hell's Angels or the Bloods/Crips/Latin Kings/etc.) or a terrorist/known spy/etc.

Or, depending on the party in power, Tea Party member, illegal alien, abortion clinician, animal rights activist, 2nd amendment supporter, big donor to the opposition party ...


Yes.

Because we've seen that happen.  Given all the leaks etc. there's been abundant evidence they're wasting time spying on political affiliation (because Mcarthurism is back..?).  See statement about actual harmful native resident terrorists.

Also, I'm taking that as an honest to god Godwin, even though you didn't cry Nazi, the fascist sentiment was clear.
 
2014-08-10 10:06:04 AM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: lordargent: dittybopper: you're a fool if you think it doesn't happen

Of course it happens.

I'm just pointing out that the data they sell to advertisers is different from the data they allow the government to have for free.

The first two posters mentioned 'you are the product', which I think applies to the former case (selling data to advertisers), but not the latter (giving data to the government for free).

IE

The argument isn't what they sell to advertisers or use for their own internal use, in exchange for providing you with a free service.

The argument here is what they're giving away to the government for free (and aren't giving you jack shiat for).

// don't let them have it indeed, easier said than done, unfortunately.

If you put anything out on the phone lines or internet, it can be intercepted.
If you store anything on a computer, someone else can access it.
If carry a cell phone, it is tracking your location-it's how they work.

The only way to hide is be like the Unabomber-live in a shack in the middle of nowhere.


Not my phone, at least not with gps precision because my gps chip is buggy and will never lock on (also has other sensor related problems....holding out for the upcoming Motorola Nexus).
 
2014-08-10 12:16:53 PM  

Tobin_Lam: Vlad_the_Inaner: Tobin_Lam: Vlad_the_Inaner: dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.

Wait!  I got pgp 2.6.2 for free.

/from MIT
//Where RSA was created in 1977
///as source that I compiled myself

How do you know the source didn't have any back doors?

I don't know.  But I did review it, and didn't see anything obvious, and the fact I could meant that people better then me could review it too.

We see how well that philosophy worked out for OpenSSL.


As in "a serious vulnerability was caught and fixed"?

Compare this to closed source, where the company in question has all the incentive in the world to suppress information about vulnerabilities in their software.
 
2014-08-10 05:00:04 PM  

tkil: Vlad_the_Inaner: You think [credit card companies] itemize instead of just taking the merchant's total?

It probably depends on both the bank and the merchant, but there are definitely cases where the credit card company does receive the itemized receipt.

I used a corporate card to buy some supplies for a recruiting function; when it reached the internal accounting / expenses system, it did have the individual items on it.  (If it makes a difference, bank was Citibank, merchant was Staples.)


Level 1 data: basic transaction info (dollar amount, card number, expiration, zip code & CVV (for manual sales)
Level 2 data: Level 1 plus Sales Tax and customer invoice number
Level 3 data: Level 2 plus shipping info and itemization.

Most merchants only collect level 1 data. Level 2 is generally for B2B transactions. Level 3 is for more specific  specific industries like pharmacies & govenrnment purchasing.
 
2014-08-10 06:47:26 PM  

qorkfiend: As in "a serious vulnerability was caught and fixed"?


Funny, the bug was introduced 2 years ago. Why didn't anybody catch it? After all, anybody could review the code and fix it. Instead, anybody could review and modify the code and now there's a massive bug that didn't get caught for years. Why didn't all these people reviewing the code catch it?

Then, shortly after that, a new bug in OpenSSL is found, one that has been hiding for 16 years! How?!

"The biggest reason why the bug hasn't been found for over 16 years is that code reviews were insufficient, especially from experts who had experiences with TLS/SSL implementation. If the reviewers had enough experiences, they should have been verified OpenSSL code in the same way they do their own code. They could have detected the problem." - Masahi Kikuchi

Sure, people can review the code. That doesn't mean they know what they're looking at.
 
2014-08-10 07:30:16 PM  

lordargent: Also, I should probably mention that I process data for a living, and came to some scary realizations as to what you could do with algorithms.

So I'm really getting a kick, and a tingle up my spine.


Hmph.  I used to intercept communications for a living, then I became a programmer/analyst.  You have no freakin' idea.
 
2014-08-10 07:34:47 PM  

mr0x: dittybopper: If you are getting something for free, you're not the customer.  You're the product.

What about free speech?
Am I a product of democracy then?

Seriously, there are lots of things that are free where you are not in a customer/product relationship.

Free software


You don't necessarily know what it costs.

Free love

That only exists in romantic fiction.  May not have a cost in terms of dollars, but that doesn't mean it's free.

Free tibet

Read the fine print:  With the purchase of a Tibet of equal or lesser value.
 
2014-08-10 07:44:25 PM  

Tobin_Lam: "If the reviewers had enough experiences, they should have been verified OpenSSL code in the same way they do their own code. They could have detected the problem." - Masahi Kikuchi


As demonstrated by Microsoft's Internet Explorer exploit that was in versions 6 through 11, ever since XP came out?  Oh wait, its not like they had anyone experienced in coding browsers to do the review in all those years, right?  All is forgiven.

img.fark.net
This just in: Code Reviews possibly miss bugs, imperfect code
 
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