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(Hardball Talk)   Honus Wagner now tied for sixth on the all-time hits list with a guy named Derek   (hardballtalk.nbcsports.com) divider line 38
    More: Spiffy, Derek Jeter, Yankees, Trevor Bauer, Carlos Beltran, Indians, stolen base, infielder  
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406 clicks; posted to Sports » on 09 Aug 2014 at 10:24 AM (10 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



38 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-08-09 09:30:21 AM  
Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....

Anywho, Jeter will pass A-Fraud for runs, will make top 10 for plate appearances, and fall about twenty games short of top 25 for games played and will be short of top 30 in doubles since he'll never catch #30 (Ortiz).  Most of the rest of the milestones are out of reach (unless, for example, some people Strahan him into top 100 stolen bases).  But I'm sure that since his WAR isn't in the top 50 someone will come in here trying to say he's not a first ballot HOFer.

\Anyone who doesn't vote so is obviously one of those precedence assholes who needs their votes stripped immediately
\\and no, I'll never care about WAR. Or OPS+. Or any stat that attempts to scale based on random BS.
 
2014-08-09 09:47:14 AM  

FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....

Anywho, Jeter will pass A-Fraud for runs, will make top 10 for plate appearances, and fall about twenty games short of top 25 for games played and will be short of top 30 in doubles since he'll never catch #30 (Ortiz).  Most of the rest of the milestones are out of reach (unless, for example, some people Strahan him into top 100 stolen bases).  But I'm sure that since his WAR isn't in the top 50 someone will come in here trying to say he's not a first ballot HOFer.

\Anyone who doesn't vote so is obviously one of those precedence assholes who needs their votes stripped immediately
\\and no, I'll never care about WAR. Or OPS+. Or any stat that attempts to scale based on random BS.


Wait, Imma gonna let you finish but, nobody out-Strahans Strahan.  Strahan was the greatest Strahanizer of ALL TIMES!  ALL TIMES!!!
 
2014-08-09 09:51:21 AM  
Makes you wonder how many hits Honus would have tallied had not played in the dead ball era.
 
2014-08-09 10:01:32 AM  
I wish I could hate that Derek guy, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
 
2014-08-09 10:13:47 AM  

Nabb1: Makes you wonder how many hits Honus would have tallied had not played in the dead ball era.


It's interesting to look at all that stuff, because there's no way it can possibly be equalized.  I mean, you can say that Jeter averaged 205 hits per 162 games and Wagner averaged 198, but that kinda throws things off.  First off, Honus played one year more, but that's one more year of less games, AND Jeter still has over 600 more plate appearances despite playing 90 less games thus far.  How different of a player would Honus have been if he had been playing 162 game seasons every year instead of 140/154 game seasons?  Conversely, and taking race out of the equation, would a guy like Jeter even be playing 20 years back in the turn of the 20th century?  The games are completely different.  But that's one of the reasons stat geeks like it.
 
2014-08-09 10:19:20 AM  

Nabb1: Makes you wonder how many hits Honus would have tallied had not played in the dead ball era.


You never know, he might have swung for the fences more, which might have resulted in more total bases but fewer hits. Not that that would have made him any less great of a baseball player.
 
2014-08-09 10:24:53 AM  

Arkanaut: Nabb1: Makes you wonder how many hits Honus would have tallied had not played in the dead ball era.

You never know, he might have swung for the fences more, which might have resulted in more total bases but fewer hits. Not that that would have made him any less great of a baseball player.


True. I like Jeter a lot, but Honus Wagner is one of the top ten baseball players ever. I'm not even sure Jeter is one of the ten best Yankees of all time.

Still a first ballot HOFer, no question.
 
2014-08-09 10:29:34 AM  
Jeter is the face of modern baseball.  He is the Babe Ruth of our generation.  suck it haters.
 
2014-08-09 10:51:33 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: Jeter is the face of modern baseball.  He is the Babe Ruth of our generation.  suck it haters.


lol. No he is not.  He's the bridge between Bonds and Trout.
 
2014-08-09 10:53:38 AM  
Gotta admit, that was a pretty cheap hit.  Though, when you have 3,400 or so, there's bound to be a few.
 
2014-08-09 11:09:15 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: Jeter is the face of modern baseball.  He is the Babe Ruth of our generation.  suck it haters.


No, he's not. He's a great player, but he's not in the same strata of greatness as Ruth. That's not "hating."
 
2014-08-09 11:10:43 AM  
That was an error.
 
2014-08-09 11:21:03 AM  

Nabb1: I'm not even sure Jeter is one of the ten best Yankees of all time.


Well let's see. Here are my totally unscientific top-10 list of all-time greatest non-Jeter Yankees:

Ruth
Gehrig
Mantle
Berra
DiMaggio
Whitey Ford
Guidry
Bill Dickey
Dave Winfield
Mariano Rivera

I didn't put Reggie Jackson there because he only spent like five or six years with the Yankees, and Mattingly's peak was too short to be considered. But I think if I were to place Jeter in this group, and what factors you consider, he should beat out Mariano in terms of his importance to the team, and Winfield in terms of tenure with the team.
 
2014-08-09 11:24:16 AM  

Arkanaut: Nabb1: I'm not even sure Jeter is one of the ten best Yankees of all time.

Well let's see. Here are my totally unscientific top-10 list of all-time greatest non-Jeter Yankees:

Ruth
Gehrig
Mantle
Berra
DiMaggio
Whitey Ford
Guidry
Bill Dickey
Dave Winfield
Mariano Rivera

I didn't put Reggie Jackson there because he only spent like five or six years with the Yankees, and Mattingly's peak was too short to be considered. But I think if I were to place Jeter in this group, and what factors you consider, he should beat out Mariano in terms of his importance to the team, and Winfield in terms of tenure with the team.


I don't know about him beating out Mariano.  When you have a guy that basically shortens the game by an inning in your favor, that's pretty big.
 
2014-08-09 11:24:42 AM  

FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from thi..... (lots of pro DJ stuff)


Maybe so, maybe so & I'm certainly not going to argue with you but Wagner's bb card is worth a lot more than Jeter's...
 
2014-08-09 11:28:59 AM  
He's still Honus Wagner and Jeter is just Jeter.
 
2014-08-09 11:29:06 AM  

Nabb1: No, he's not. He's a great player, but he's not in the same strata of greatness as Ruth. That's not "hating."


to be fair though, maybe five or six players ever to play the game were in the same strata as Ruth.
 
2014-08-09 11:39:14 AM  
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140710180212/degrassi/images/9/92 /Tumblr_lx5wcoxWB41qat4nno1_500.gif
 
2014-08-09 11:39:54 AM  
Lousy mobile. Nevermind. Derekfromstepbrothers.gif
 
2014-08-09 11:40:00 AM  

SilentStrider: Nabb1: No, he's not. He's a great player, but he's not in the same strata of greatness as Ruth. That's not "hating."

to be fair though, maybe five or six players ever to play the game were in the same strata as Ruth.


And then consider that he was a good pitcher as well and he's even more impressive.  Let's see Jeter throw nine shutout games and have the best ERA at the end of a season.
 
2014-08-09 12:48:28 PM  
Meh.  The NY Mets are still my favorite squadron

simlb.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-08-09 01:00:54 PM  
It's not a Jeter thread without my favorite baseball farker complaining that Jeter is not HOF worthy because hits are vastly overrated.
 
2014-08-09 01:09:08 PM  
I say we threadjack this biatch and talk about Guidry's amazefarkballs '78 campaign.  That shiat was craycray fun to watch.
 
2014-08-09 01:11:04 PM  

gameshowhost: I say we threadjack this biatch and talk about Guidry's amazefarkballs '78 campaign.  That shiat was craycray fun to watch.


Or how about how George demanded that they retire his number for some crazy f*cking reason.
 
2014-08-09 02:00:15 PM  
Is this the Derek who had a hit song titled "Cinnamon" in the late 1960s?  Or is it the Derek who
teamed up with the Dominoes for "Layla" in 1970?  (Probably neither; more likely the first since the
other was Eric Clapton - why not "Eric and the Dominoes"?)
 
2014-08-09 03:01:08 PM  
Jeter just passed him (with another cheapie).

GREATEST SHORTSTOP IN HISTORY!
 
2014-08-09 03:50:53 PM  

The Bestest: Jeter just passed him (with another cheapie).

GREATEST SHORTSTOP IN HISTORY!


No. For the better part of the last decade, he wasn't even the best shortstop on his own team.
 
2014-08-09 03:54:16 PM  

Prey4reign: Strahans Strahan


didn't he shoot kennedy that mtv vj?
 
2014-08-09 04:01:54 PM  

FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....

Anywho, Jeter will pass A-Fraud for runs, will make top 10 for plate appearances, and fall about twenty games short of top 25 for games played and will be short of top 30 in doubles since he'll never catch #30 (Ortiz).  Most of the rest of the milestones are out of reach (unless, for example, some people Strahan him into top 100 stolen bases).  But I'm sure that since his WAR isn't in the top 50 someone will come in here trying to say he's not a first ballot HOFer.

\Anyone who doesn't vote so is obviously one of those precedence assholes who needs their votes stripped immediately
\\and no, I'll never care about WAR. Or OPS+. Or any stat that attempts to scale based on random BS.


I believe Jeter belongs in the Hall, but I do wonder what effect being on the Yankees has on one's career vs. the Padres or Astros. Jeter's production shows solo talent, but what about Mariano Rivera?

Closers are only able to close if they have save opportunities, and you only have save opportunities if your team is in the lead before you enter the game. Postseason success is also predicated on your team winning. What would Rivera's career have looked like if he had played for the Astros and never reached postseason play? Trevor Hoffman was amazing for the Padres, but he was nowhere near as respected as Rivera, despite being a great closer on a team who didn't provide him with many save opportunities.
 
2014-08-09 04:32:32 PM  

dave2198: FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....

Anywho, Jeter will pass A-Fraud for runs, will make top 10 for plate appearances, and fall about twenty games short of top 25 for games played and will be short of top 30 in doubles since he'll never catch #30 (Ortiz).  Most of the rest of the milestones are out of reach (unless, for example, some people Strahan him into top 100 stolen bases).  But I'm sure that since his WAR isn't in the top 50 someone will come in here trying to say he's not a first ballot HOFer.

\Anyone who doesn't vote so is obviously one of those precedence assholes who needs their votes stripped immediately
\\and no, I'll never care about WAR. Or OPS+. Or any stat that attempts to scale based on random BS.

I believe Jeter belongs in the Hall, but I do wonder what effect being on the Yankees has on one's career vs. the Padres or Astros. Jeter's production shows solo talent, but what about Mariano Rivera?

Closers are only able to close if they have save opportunities, and you only have save opportunities if your team is in the lead before you enter the game. Postseason success is also predicated on your team winning. What would Rivera's career have looked like if he had played for the Astros and never reached postseason play? Trevor Hoffman was amazing for the Padres, but he was nowhere near as respected as Rivera, despite being a great closer on a team who didn't provide him with many save opportunities.


Mariano had 652 in 732 opportunities for an 89.1 save percentage.  Trevor had 601 in 677 for an 88.8.  They really aren't that far apart.  And for comparison, Sutter and Fingers both were around 75%.  I wholly endorse both of them getting in the HoF, but I guess my point is that Mo and Trevor both had completely different teams to deal with and both did almost exactly the same thing, the only difference being Mo played one year longer.  The good find a way to be good.
 
2014-08-09 04:59:47 PM  

dave2198: FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....

Anywho, Jeter will pass A-Fraud for runs, will make top 10 for plate appearances, and fall about twenty games short of top 25 for games played and will be short of top 30 in doubles since he'll never catch #30 (Ortiz).  Most of the rest of the milestones are out of reach (unless, for example, some people Strahan him into top 100 stolen bases).  But I'm sure that since his WAR isn't in the top 50 someone will come in here trying to say he's not a first ballot HOFer.

\Anyone who doesn't vote so is obviously one of those precedence assholes who needs their votes stripped immediately
\\and no, I'll never care about WAR. Or OPS+. Or any stat that attempts to scale based on random BS.

I believe Jeter belongs in the Hall, but I do wonder what effect being on the Yankees has on one's career vs. the Padres or Astros. Jeter's production shows solo talent, but what about Mariano Rivera?

Closers are only able to close if they have save opportunities, and you only have save opportunities if your team is in the lead before you enter the game. Postseason success is also predicated on your team winning. What would Rivera's career have looked like if he had played for the Astros and never reached postseason play? Trevor Hoffman was amazing for the Padres, but he was nowhere near as respected as Rivera, despite being a great closer on a team who didn't provide him with many save opportunities.


Mo's career ERA was 48% of the league average for his career. Hoffman's was 71%. Pedro Martinez is second to Mo all time with 67 (among guys who pitched at least 1000 innings). Hoffman was great, but Rivera dominated in a way no other pitcher has approached. Being a Yankee helped a lot, but Mo Rivera is unrivalled. I think that'd be recognized anywhere.
 
2014-08-09 06:16:18 PM  

FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....


I don't think MLB officially recognizes NA stats. If they did, I'd say you'd have to count Ichiro's NPB stats (which would put him -3rd- on the all-time hits list).
 
2014-08-09 06:31:33 PM  

The Bestest: I don't think MLB officially recognizes NA stats. If they did, I'd say you'd have to count Ichiro's NPB stats (which would put him -3rd- on the all-time hits list).


Yeah, those are totally similar situations. I remember that year when half the NPB folded and the other half formed the "official" majors like it was yesterday....
 
2014-08-09 09:44:36 PM  
"Yeah Wags! Yeah Wags!"
 
2014-08-10 12:15:17 AM  

neon_god: dave2198: FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....

Anywho, Jeter will pass A-Fraud for runs, will make top 10 for plate appearances, and fall about twenty games short of top 25 for games played and will be short of top 30 in doubles since he'll never catch #30 (Ortiz).  Most of the rest of the milestones are out of reach (unless, for example, some people Strahan him into top 100 stolen bases).  But I'm sure that since his WAR isn't in the top 50 someone will come in here trying to say he's not a first ballot HOFer.

\Anyone who doesn't vote so is obviously one of those precedence assholes who needs their votes stripped immediately
\\and no, I'll never care about WAR. Or OPS+. Or any stat that attempts to scale based on random BS.

I believe Jeter belongs in the Hall, but I do wonder what effect being on the Yankees has on one's career vs. the Padres or Astros. Jeter's production shows solo talent, but what about Mariano Rivera?

Closers are only able to close if they have save opportunities, and you only have save opportunities if your team is in the lead before you enter the game. Postseason success is also predicated on your team winning. What would Rivera's career have looked like if he had played for the Astros and never reached postseason play? Trevor Hoffman was amazing for the Padres, but he was nowhere near as respected as Rivera, despite being a great closer on a team who didn't provide him with many save opportunities.

Mo's career ERA was 48% of the league average for his career. Hoffman's was 71%. Pedro Martinez is second to Mo all time with 67 (among guys who pitched at least 1000 innings). Hoffman was great, but Rivera dominated in a way no other pitcher has approached. Being a Yankee helped a lot, but Mo Rivera is unrivalled. I th ...


Mo had a Fastball and Cutter, Trevor Hoffman had a Fastball, Curve, Slider and Change up.

Mo got people out with just one pitch; being a Yankee didn't help him, fact he sucked as a starter - hell the Yankees were ready to deal him because he simply sucked as a starter; however after getting injured - some how he managed to hit 95+ on the radar gun and the yankees decided to back down; he ended up in the bullpen after a few crappy starts.

Anyone who watched the 1996 season could see; him and John wetteland made every game a 6 inning game.
 
2014-08-10 12:27:53 AM  

Misconduc: neon_god: dave2198: FriarReb98: Hm.  Just found out from this that Baseball-Reference.com includes National Association stats in their numbers.  (Mostly because Cap Anson is actually way higher on most of his stats if you include his five years in the NA.) That skews things a bit....

Anywho, Jeter will pass A-Fraud for runs, will make top 10 for plate appearances, and fall about twenty games short of top 25 for games played and will be short of top 30 in doubles since he'll never catch #30 (Ortiz).  Most of the rest of the milestones are out of reach (unless, for example, some people Strahan him into top 100 stolen bases).  But I'm sure that since his WAR isn't in the top 50 someone will come in here trying to say he's not a first ballot HOFer.

\Anyone who doesn't vote so is obviously one of those precedence assholes who needs their votes stripped immediately
\\and no, I'll never care about WAR. Or OPS+. Or any stat that attempts to scale based on random BS.

I believe Jeter belongs in the Hall, but I do wonder what effect being on the Yankees has on one's career vs. the Padres or Astros. Jeter's production shows solo talent, but what about Mariano Rivera?

Closers are only able to close if they have save opportunities, and you only have save opportunities if your team is in the lead before you enter the game. Postseason success is also predicated on your team winning. What would Rivera's career have looked like if he had played for the Astros and never reached postseason play? Trevor Hoffman was amazing for the Padres, but he was nowhere near as respected as Rivera, despite being a great closer on a team who didn't provide him with many save opportunities.

Mo's career ERA was 48% of the league average for his career. Hoffman's was 71%. Pedro Martinez is second to Mo all time with 67 (among guys who pitched at least 1000 innings). Hoffman was great, but Rivera dominated in a way no other pitcher has approached. Being a Yankee helped a lot, but Mo Rivera is unrivalled. I th ...

Mo had a Fastball and Cutter, Trevor Hoffman had a Fastball, Curve, Slider and Change up.

Mo got people out with just one pitch; being a Yankee didn't help him, fact he sucked as a starter - hell the Yankees were ready to deal him because he simply sucked as a starter; however after getting injured - some how he managed to hit 95+ on the radar gun and the yankees decided to back down; he ended up in the bullpen after a few crappy starts.

Anyone who watched the 1996 season could see; him and John wetteland made every game a 6 inning game.


He was a one pitch pitcher, but that one pitch was unlike anything else. It doesn't matter that he couldn't hack it as a starter. He found a niche and was the best ever in that niche by miles. My argument was that Rivera's HoF candidacy stands up even if he got fewer saves and even if he played in a smaller market, because he was just so dominant, on a different level from anyone else
 
2014-08-10 01:24:04 AM  
Li'l Robbie:Or is it the Derek who teamed up with the Dominoes for "Layla" in 1970?  (Probably neither; more likely the first since the
other was Eric Clapton - why not "Eric and the Dominoes"?)



If I may go way off topic for a moment, there are two stories about why the name of the group was Derek and the Dominoes.  One is the name was supposed to be "Eric and the Dynamos" but somebody at the record company misheard it as "Derek and the Dominoes".  By the time they realized the mistake, it was too late to change the group's name.  The other story is "Derek" is supposed to be a melding of the first names of lead guitarists  Eric Clapton and Duane Allman.

Getting back to the thread topic, here are the comparative stats for Wagner and Jeter.
 
2014-08-10 10:45:56 AM  

The Bestest: I don't think MLB officially recognizes NA stats. If they did, I'd say you'd have to count Ichiro's NPB stats (which would put him -3rd- on the all-time hits list).


No, because the NA is the immediate predecessor to the NL.  Two teams are still in the NL that were in the NA (as well as the four AA teams).  The NPB has no ties to the league at all.  At least that's my argument for it.

Hell, there's one NL team who tries to tie themselves to a team that disbanded twelve years before they were founded (and had the majority of said previous team form the nucleus of a completely different team that still exists today).  It's not that far-fetched an idea to have.
 
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