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(Business Insider)   Huge cash-only transactions; mules and private couriers; no names; hiding from government scrutiny: Inside the world of illicit drugs. Lethal injection drugs, that is   (businessinsider.com) divider line 36
    More: Interesting, Monetary Economics, lethal injection, Missouri Department of Corrections, sodium thiopental, St. Louis Public Radio, death penalty, yellow jackets  
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1318 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Aug 2014 at 8:47 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2014-08-09 08:38:08 AM  
8 votes:

Son of Thunder: Pretty slick move there, anti-DP activists. Harass suppliers until they want to be anonymous, then claim that anonymous transactions are too shady to allow.

I'll pass that advice along to the pro-life activists.


Will you also pass along the fact that there's a clear difference between not being able to find out what the government is doing and not being able to find out your neighbors private medical information?
2014-08-09 09:02:59 AM  
7 votes:
The death penalty serves no purpose other than to allow DA's to say they are "tough of crime"
2014-08-09 11:15:00 AM  
4 votes:
It's amazing the lengths these people will go through to kill someone. Extraordinary lengths don't apply to rehabilitation, mental health treatment, physical health treatment, vocational training, or population reduction in the prisons (ha ha, DP is a form of pop reduction). But killing the convicted? Ends of the Earth, baby, ends of the Earth.
2014-08-09 09:19:29 AM  
4 votes:

way south: baka-san: The death penalty serves no purpose other than to allow DA's to say they are "tough of crime"

It serves quite a few purposes in a society when its used properly. It gives you that higher grade of punishment for your most heinous criminals, and can save you all those resources spent on their incarceration. The public has always liked a good hanging, which sates their bloodlust and let's them feel the state has a lock on things.

Problem is we don't do anything properly. We put retards on death row and give life imprisonment to known monsters. We make the checks and balances procedures for the death penalty process far more complicated than we do for other penalties. Then when its finally time to make a kill we even FARK that up.

The DA gets to say they are just as tough on crime when they put pod heads in jail for as long as rapists. They won't be hurting when the executions are gone.


It costs more to go through all the appeals for a death penalty case than it does to lock someone up for life, so it's not about saving resources.
2014-08-09 09:00:16 AM  
4 votes:

Son of Thunder: Pretty slick move there, anti-DP activists. Harass suppliers until they want to be anonymous, then claim that anonymous transactions are too shady to allow.

I'll pass that advice along to the pro-life activists.


Maybe you can support the government killing people in a way that looks like they are killing people and not performing some sort of medical procedure. Then we would not have to worry about the drugs. Any half a mechanic can build a guillotine.
2014-08-09 08:58:20 AM  
4 votes:

Son of Thunder: Pretty slick move there, anti-DP activists. Harass suppliers until they want to be anonymous, then claim that anonymous transactions are too shady to allow.

I'll pass that advice along to the pro-life activists.


lotta anti-death penalty people pipe bombing facilities at which they're done?
2014-08-09 08:39:49 AM  
4 votes:

Son of Thunder: Pretty slick move there, anti-DP activists. Harass suppliers until they want to be anonymous, then claim that anonymous transactions are too shady to allow.

I'll pass that advice along to the pro-life activists.


The difference being that the suppliers of lethal injection drugs actually have something to be ashamed of and therefore a reason to desire anonymity.

Unless your idea of "harassment" is the same arson, murder, and general terrorism used by "pro-life" activists in the past.
2014-08-09 02:02:11 PM  
3 votes:
This is why I don't consider the US a civilized country.  As a society, we go to greater lengths to kill our convicts than we do to feed our children.
2014-08-09 10:42:51 AM  
3 votes:
Conservatives implicit trust in government to kill their fellow citizens but claim government can't be trusted to feed hungry children.
2014-08-09 08:20:34 AM  
3 votes:
Pretty slick move there, anti-DP activists. Harass suppliers until they want to be anonymous, then claim that anonymous transactions are too shady to allow.

I'll pass that advice along to the pro-life activists.
2014-08-09 01:28:17 PM  
2 votes:
I support the idea of capital punishment, but there isn't enough 'justice' in the American justice system for me to trust it. When justice is based on the size of your bank account and the color of your skin, it is not a system that can be trusted to fairly administer capital punishment.  So I oppose capital punishment in America.
2014-08-09 11:54:23 AM  
2 votes:

cchris_39: Ah.  Well then, let's tear up their patent now.


Pentobarb is not a patent drug in the United States. Its been off-patent for years.

Thanks to assholes like these people who want to use it for executions, a VERY useful drug in neurocritical care is almost impossible to get now.

SixPaperJoint: Jump to 36:45 for the TLDR conclusion. Spoiler: it's hypoxia. Painless, quick and humane.


Lethal injection by one drug method kills with hypoxia - alveolar hypoxia and hypoxemia induced by respiratory arrest. I can't watch the link at work, but I'm going to assume it's nitrogen asphyxiation?

Lethal injection by a one drug method - dilaudid/ativan or dilaudid/versed, and pentobarb alone have the benefit of inducing deep sedation, to the point of anesthesia. I suppose you could use an anesthesia machine-like rig to deliver a pure nitrogen-gas mixture to the condemned after inducing general anesthesia, but that increases the complexity of the process as well as the room for human error/cruelty
2014-08-09 10:18:44 AM  
2 votes:

way south: Do it right the first time and an endless appeal system is less necessary.


I guess that applies to mistrials and procedural appeals... but you do realize that death penalty cases typically get mandatory appeals, right?  Like, most states legally require at least one do-over of the convicting trial if the sentencing hearing comes back with a death sentence?

They're not, strictly speaking, optional most of the time.  Appropriately so since it's rather difficult to exonerate a dead guy in anything more than the symbolic sense.  There haven't been a lot of actual verified false convictions that resulted in execution (as in, the state actually exonerated post-execution, not the innocence-project math estimate of 300% of death row cases being the wrong guy or whatever ridiculous bullshiat they're pulling out of their asses this month) but it has happened, and a couple cases are more than enough to merit the extra legal caution involved.
2014-08-09 10:02:18 AM  
2 votes:

way south:
A problem we've created by allowing a lot of nonsense to go down at trial.
Do it right the first time and an endless appeal system is less necessary.


So, you would rather get rid of the appeals system than executions?
2014-08-09 09:17:02 AM  
2 votes:

Son of Thunder: Pretty slick move there, anti-DP activists. Harass suppliers until they want to be anonymous, then claim that anonymous transactions are too shady to allow.

I'll pass that advice along to the pro-life activists.


I'm confused at what you mean, isn't being against the death penalty the very definition of pro-life.  How can somebody use the term pro-life if they aren't anti-death penalty?
2014-08-09 09:05:07 AM  
2 votes:
What about guns?
Can't we just use guns?

/everyone else in government is using guns.
/except the people who's ONLY job is to kill.
/seriously, how did that get so farked up...
2014-08-09 09:02:36 AM  
2 votes:
I say we should bring back public hanging. Let people see what is on the end of their newspaper spoon, as Burroughs said.
2014-08-09 08:19:43 PM  
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: dookdookdook: Unless your idea of "harassment" is the same arson, murder, and general terrorism used by "pro-life" activists in the past.

That's... pretty much exactly what was being threatened when the secrecy rules were put into play, yes.  Straight-up credible terrorist threats, and yes, I'm aware that's somewhat ironic coming from anti death penalty people but activists have no sense of irony.

... or was that your point, and I'm interpreting sarcasm as straight-faced ignorance?


Citation? Genuinely curious. The Googles are giving me lots of assertions of harassment of death penalty drug providers by anti-death penalty activists, but coming up short on documenting it.
2014-08-09 05:08:42 PM  
1 votes:

Mrbogey: Halli: You think people who are sentenced to death row will ever get out of jail? Also don't these inmates stay in the system for years? How dangerous have they been exactly?

Sometimes lifers do get out. Sometimes they escape. It happens. Sometimes death row and lifers will kill, rape, or assault guards and prisoners. It happens.


How frequently does this happen exactly?
2014-08-09 03:32:14 PM  
1 votes:

Mrbogey: baka-san: The death penalty serves no purpose other than to allow DA's to say they are "tough of crime"

Well, that and making sure scumbags can't continue to victimize other people (guards and inmates). But yea, other than that it doesn't do anything. Oh, and it makes sure a family can sleep at night knowing the hate-filled racists who killed their father will never ever ever get out of jail and come after them. But yea, other than those two things... it does nothing.


You think people who are sentenced to death row will ever get out of jail? Also don't these inmates stay in the system for years? How dangerous have they been exactly?
2014-08-09 01:02:37 PM  
1 votes:
All Drugs are Lethal if you do too much or do enough of them over enough time.


there is no such thing as a completly harmless drug.  they all have varying degrees of negative side effects.  if they did not, they wouldn't be called Drugs.
2014-08-09 12:59:08 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: So, question. Why don't we just give these people massive doses of research-quality heroin. The LD50 with complete circulatory collapse is 350mg. Just give them a gram, rapid IV push, and let nature take it's course


I don't know if anyone has answered your question yet, but you are right, there is no reason they couldn't give a heroic dose of fentanyl ww/o midazolam or any of a dozen other respiratory depressants..  Any small rural hospital has enough fentanyl in stock to kill 100's of people.  The real problem drug is the paralytic, but the article doesn't even mention that.  You need a nondepolarizing paralytic to give the appearance the convict went peacefully and painless. This is what is really getting hard to find.  If you don't have one then they get all agonal breathing, with fasciculations and death rattles, etc.  Doesn't make one bit of difference for the convict mind you, he's unconscious, but it gives the appearance of humanity.

It's easy to kill someone.  It's slightly harder to kill someone painlessly.  But it hard as hell to kill someone painless and leave everyone else feeling good about it.
2014-08-09 12:06:02 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: So, question. Why don't we just give these people massive doses of research-quality heroin. The LD50 with complete circulatory collapse is 350mg. Just give them a gram, rapid IV push, and let nature take it's course


A quick and painless way of executing condemned criminals? Are you mad? The whole point of the death penalty in the US is to make sure that death row inmates don't get that luxury. You might as well suggest that crims executed in the gas chamber be asphyxiated with helium or nitrogen and die in their sleep from hypoxia instead of choking them with cyanide gas so that their last moments are spent writhing in fear and pain.

/and even if "Lethal Injection (Heroin)" was an option for execution, there's no way that option would be afforded to black inmates
//especially blacks on death row for killing white people -- the best they could hope for is "Lethal Injection (Air Bubble)" in the hopes that it's over in about five minutes
2014-08-09 11:56:32 AM  
1 votes:

way south: baka-san: The death penalty serves no purpose other than to allow DA's to say they are "tough of crime"

It serves quite a few purposes in a society when its used properly. It gives you that higher grade of punishment for your most heinous criminals, and can save you all those resources spent on their incarceration. The public has always liked a good hanging, which sates their bloodlust and let's them feel the state has a lock on things.

Problem is we don't do anything properly. We put retards on death row and give life imprisonment to known monsters. We make the checks and balances procedures for the death penalty process far more complicated than we do for other penalties. Then when its finally time to make a kill we even FARK that up.

The DA gets to say they are just as tough on crime when they put pod heads in jail for as long as rapists. They won't be hurting when the executions are gone.


Pod heads?

MST3K-trumpy.jpg
2014-08-09 11:48:23 AM  
1 votes:

SixPaperJoint: hardinparamedic: So, question. Why don't we just give these people massive doses of research-quality heroin. The LD50 with complete circulatory collapse is 350mg. Just give them a gram, rapid IV push, and let nature take it's course

I think there might be a better way.

How to Kill a Human Being- BBC Documentary

Jump to 36:45 for the TLDR conclusion. Spoiler: it's hypoxia. Painless, quick and humane.

If we are going to end someone's life for a crime we are obligated to be the "bigger person" and not stoop to the level of the condemned. It's supposed to be a form of justice not revenge.


But you can tell by the reaction he gets when he brings up hypoxia that revenge and bloodlust is exactly what drives many people who are pro DP.
2014-08-09 11:41:14 AM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: So, question. Why don't we just give these people massive doses of research-quality heroin. The LD50 with complete circulatory collapse is 350mg. Just give them a gram, rapid IV push, and let nature take it's course


I think there might be a better way.

How to Kill a Human Being- BBC Documentary

Jump to 36:45 for the TLDR conclusion. Spoiler: it's hypoxia. Painless, quick and humane.

If we are going to end someone's life for a crime we are obligated to be the "bigger person" and not stoop to the level of the condemned. It's supposed to be a form of justice not revenge.
2014-08-09 11:39:13 AM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: cchris_39: FTA -

Because the Danish maker of pentobarbital is now refusing to supply that drug to corrections departments.....

Ok you have until the close of business tomorrow to resume shipping or your U.S. patent goes in the shredder.

The Swedish government prohibits the export of drugs specifically used to end human life in judicial execution as a violation of human rights.

It


Ah.  Well then, let's tear up their patent now.
2014-08-09 11:30:10 AM  
1 votes:

cchris_39: FTA -

Because the Danish maker of pentobarbital is now refusing to supply that drug to corrections departments.....

Ok you have until the close of business tomorrow to resume shipping or your U.S. patent goes in the shredder.


The Swedish government prohibits the export of drugs specifically used to end human life in judicial execution as a violation of human rights.

It
2014-08-09 11:28:17 AM  
1 votes:
FTA -

Because the Danish maker of pentobarbital is now refusing to supply that drug to corrections departments.....

Ok you have until the close of business tomorrow to resume shipping or your U.S. patent goes in the shredder.
2014-08-09 11:09:51 AM  
1 votes:
So, question. Why don't we just give these people massive doses of research-quality heroin. The LD50 with complete circulatory collapse is 350mg. Just give them a gram, rapid IV push, and let nature take it's course
2014-08-09 10:47:40 AM  
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: way south: Do it right the first time and an endless appeal system is less necessary.

I guess that applies to mistrials and procedural appeals... but you do realize that death penalty cases typically get mandatory appeals, right?  Like, most states legally require at least one do-over of the convicting trial if the sentencing hearing comes back with a death sentence?

They're not, strictly speaking, optional most of the time.  Appropriately so since it's rather difficult to exonerate a dead guy in anything more than the symbolic sense.  There haven't been a lot of actual verified false convictions that resulted in execution (as in, the state actually exonerated post-execution, not the innocence-project math estimate of 300% of death row cases being the wrong guy or whatever ridiculous bullshiat they're pulling out of their asses this month) but it has happened, and a couple cases are more than enough to merit the extra legal caution involved.


Quite a few more than a couple. Also, once the execution has occurred, just how much investigation do you think goes on in the case? States are not going to fund an investigation that has the potential for costing them public opinion and reparations.
2014-08-09 10:41:28 AM  
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: Like, most states legally require at least one do-over of the convicting trial if the sentencing hearing comes back with a death sentence?


I've noticed lately that you post a lot of nonsense - stuff that's just simply factually wrong. What's up with that?
2014-08-09 10:32:02 AM  
1 votes:

Son of Thunder: Pretty slick move there, anti-DP activists. Harass suppliers until they want to be anonymous, then claim that anonymous transactions are too shady to allow.

I'll pass that advice along to the pro-life activists.


Go stick your culture of life hypocrisy up your ass and spin on it.
2014-08-09 09:57:58 AM  
1 votes:

firefly212: I May Be Crazy But...: Apparently a lot of veterinarians are taught how to use a gun to put down an animal humanely. You know, one bullet that scrambles the brain. Obviously that's not going to come in handy so much for a small animal vet, but apparently it's occasionally a good thing to know when there's a cow suffering seriously. Just do that. Yeah, it's gruesome, but what's that matter to the guy being killed? Nobody is forced to watch.

Maybe the public should be forced to watch what's being done in their name. Maybe if people had to actually see the results of the system the vote for, they would vote for something better.


Absolutely. If the state is going to slaughter human beings like livestock in cold blood in our names, we should be forced to watch it. Demand all broadcasters cover the execution live as a condition of being licensed. Take children out of class at school and make them watch. Show it on the Jumbotron at the stadium. If we have such a hard-on for killing, let's at least be open about it.
2014-08-09 09:43:08 AM  
1 votes:

Tyrone Slothrop: I say we should bring back public hanging. Let people see what is on the end of their newspaper spoon, as Burroughs said.


Let's go all-in and initiate for-profit public hangings.  Snap the neck, drain the blood and harvest the organs on the spot.  Donate the blood to the local blood bank, and sell the organs to the Chinese.  I just want 2.5% of the profits for the idea.
2014-08-09 09:14:57 AM  
1 votes:

baka-san: The death penalty serves no purpose other than to allow DA's to say they are "tough of crime"


It serves quite a few purposes in a society when its used properly. It gives you that higher grade of punishment for your most heinous criminals, and can save you all those resources spent on their incarceration. The public has always liked a good hanging, which sates their bloodlust and let's them feel the state has a lock on things.

Problem is we don't do anything properly. We put retards on death row and give life imprisonment to known monsters. We make the checks and balances procedures for the death penalty process far more complicated than we do for other penalties. Then when its finally time to make a kill we even FARK that up.

The DA gets to say they are just as tough on crime when they put pod heads in jail for as long as rapists. They won't be hurting when the executions are gone.
 
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