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(The Local)   Father teaches sons lessons about reality of war by a) asking them to read books about the world wars, b) watching war documentaries together with them, c) taking them on a trip to the Israel and Palestine warzone   (thelocal.se) divider line 49
    More: Dumbass  
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2414 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Aug 2014 at 12:53 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



49 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-08-09 12:09:06 AM  
Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.
 
2014-08-09 12:47:02 AM  
weird move
 
2014-08-09 12:56:16 AM  
ImOkayWithThis.jpg
 
2014-08-09 12:57:12 AM  
First he considered Iraq or Afghanistan, but concluded that current war zones were too dangerous. So this past spring during Easter break, the family booked tickets to occupied Israel and Palestine - "the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket," Helgegren remarked.
Am I missing something?
 
2014-08-09 12:59:26 AM  
Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.
 
2014-08-09 01:00:23 AM  
Good for them, those will not be spoiled, clueless children.
 
2014-08-09 01:01:33 AM  
FTFA"But in Sweden and Europe and North Americawe are very privileged. We have all this wealth and rights and social services. And with that comes the responsibility to educate ourselves and not just become zombies playing video games and consuming hamburgers."

fixed that for him.

Sounds like a pretty farking good dad. Call of Duty sucks anyway.
 
2014-08-09 01:01:37 AM  
That's a pretty cool trip. Next time they complain about being hungry he can take them to meet the proverbial starving Africans.
 
2014-08-09 01:04:43 AM  

Guilty_plea_bargain: First he considered Iraq or Afghanistan, but concluded that current war zones were too dangerous. So this past spring during Easter break, the family booked tickets to occupied Israel and Palestine - "the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket," Helgegren remarked.
Am I missing something?


Um... I guess that depends on who you're questioning. Subby? The father in tfa?
 
spr
2014-08-09 01:05:18 AM  
HERO
 
2014-08-09 01:10:10 AM  

LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.


cdn.memegenerator.net
 
2014-08-09 01:11:02 AM  
So... what exactly is wrong with this, Subby? A guy fully aware of and experienced in war zones carefully selects and shapes an immersive educational experience to educate his naive kids about the realities of armed conflict. This isn't some bonehead taking his kids on a war tourism holiday with all the safeties off.

Good dad. His kids are already way ahead of many of us Farkers. Especially the ones who routinely call for "glassing" the Middle East.
 
2014-08-09 01:15:02 AM  
article - "I have received messages calling me the worst parent in the world, saying that I am traumatizing my children, that I am a pompous bastard, and that I should be doused in napalm," Helgeren told The Local. "I didn't really expect such a reaction."

If you didn't expect such a reaction you still don't know what war is since you don't know what human nature is.
 
2014-08-09 01:17:02 AM  

LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.


So you left them there?
 
2014-08-09 01:25:09 AM  

Ashelth: LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.

So you left them there?


I think he has a claw for a hand....
 
2014-08-09 01:29:10 AM  

brimed03: Guilty_plea_bargain: First he considered Iraq or Afghanistan, but concluded that current war zones were too dangerous. So this past spring during Easter break, the family booked tickets to occupied Israel and Palestine - "the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket," Helgegren remarked.
Am I missing something?

Um... I guess that depends on who you're questioning. Subby? The father in tfa?


I was too quick in coming to a conclusion that the father was traveling to an active war zone in the Israeli conflict after stating it would be too dangerous in Iraq or Afghanistan.

But if he purchased his tickets during Easter break it was before the shiat hit the fan over there.

So I'm still a bit confused as to why in tfa he states the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket when there was no war at the time the tickets were purchased.
 
2014-08-09 01:35:46 AM  
Totally misplayed by the kids. Should of asked for a playboy magazine and got a trip to the playboy mansion instead.
 
2014-08-09 01:38:49 AM  
Guilty_plea_bargain:

So I'm still a bit confused as to why in tfa he states the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket when there was no war at the time the tickets were purchased.

Because you're not really thinking about it?
He didn't want his kids to see people being blown apart by active shelling.  He wanted them to see that war has a cost, it has an impact, it has suffering, and it's not cool nor just a game.  The kinds of things you can get from an area that's been ravaged by such.  Their behavior quite obviously bothered him, to the point that he was willing to outlay the expense to make such a trip, and he did so as safely as possible.

Further, it sounds like the boys learned and got a great deal of life experience from going.

Tag should be changed from dumbass to hero, really.
 
2014-08-09 01:46:07 AM  

Guilty_plea_bargain: brimed03: Guilty_plea_bargain: First he considered Iraq or Afghanistan, but concluded that current war zones were too dangerous. So this past spring during Easter break, the family booked tickets to occupied Israel and Palestine - "the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket," Helgegren remarked.
Am I missing something?

Um... I guess that depends on who you're questioning. Subby? The father in tfa?

I was too quick in coming to a conclusion that the father was traveling to an active war zone in the Israeli conflict after stating it would be too dangerous in Iraq or Afghanistan.

But if he purchased his tickets during Easter break it was before the shiat hit the fan over there.

So I'm still a bit confused as to why in tfa he states the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket when there was no war at the time the tickets were purchased.


TFA says the idea was to show the kids a city impacted by real war. I'm assuming that meant one still feeling the impact of whenever the last one was. There are still tensions in between wars, as shown by the photos with the military guys. He doesn't describe too much, but there's this:

"We went to the Shuafat refugee camp in east Jerusalem. They saw the conditions there, where people burned trash in the streets, and there was an illegal drug market right next to the school. We went to a clinic where kids were being stitched up every single day because they had been hit in the head with the butt of a rifle," Helgegren recalled.
 
2014-08-09 02:02:59 AM  
That, right there, is a hell of a dad. Of course, if one of his kids had gotten popped I'm sure popular opinion would not be kind.
 
2014-08-09 02:05:52 AM  

AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.


I've never been in a war zone so maybe I don't know what it's really like, but I see the images from Gaza, Syria, Ukraine, Iraq and Afghanistan as well as other war torn countries in Africa and I get the impression that it kind of sucks even if someone "wins".

That said, I can separate fantasy from reality and there's nothing wrong with a good video game that involves killing your opponents in very bloody ways.

/never played CoD
//used to play Doom so much I got jumpy when I heard certain sounds outside of gaming
///Doom gave me PTSD?  No, not really
 
2014-08-09 02:11:47 AM  

SquiggsIN: who gives a shiat? they aren't your kids, stop trying to be their parents.


Don't bring that up in a circumcison thread, you'll get lynched.

IRT TFA, if my kids were considering playing COD I'd give them shock treatment too.
 
2014-08-09 02:45:40 AM  
Churches do similar things all time by bringing kids along on mission trips to 3rd world nations. The conditions are far worse with consistently active rebel groups and people getting all voodoo about foreigners arriving with boxes of needles.
 
2014-08-09 02:46:20 AM  
"I think people didn't read thoroughly, so they thought we were just there recently, when there is a massive war going on,"

Yup,  based on just the headline I was ready to come in and ask when he was going to be charged with child endangerment and be visited by social services.  I no longer think that after reading the article.  I commend him for taking the time to actually teach his children something about the world.

"Johanna Nylander at the Swedish Games Industry (Dataspelsbranschen) said "But I don't think it's necessary, perhaps, to take your kids to warzone. Just playing together with them and showing an interest should suffice.""

But I do wonder if Sweden has any sort of content rating system for games like there is in north america.
And if they do it then you say no you can't play these games because you're not old enough, they are not made for children.

That's right,  Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto are NOT FOR CHILDREN,  so stop buying your kids or grandkids these video games you farkwits!  The ratings on them are there for a reason! I hope the next grandmother to complain about such a game gets smacked in the head with the box it came in and then have the game rating read to them in the loudest voice possible.
 
2014-08-09 03:00:28 AM  

AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.


O_O

If Gaza isn't your idea of an all out war zone, what the F*CK IS?!??!?
 
2014-08-09 03:13:28 AM  

Gyrfalcon: AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.

O_O

If Gaza isn't your idea of an all out war zone, what the F*CK IS?!??!?


It wasn't an active war zone at the time....
 
2014-08-09 03:24:25 AM  

Gyrfalcon: AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.

O_O

If Gaza isn't your idea of an all out war zone, what the F*CK IS?!??!?


Your reading comprehension sucks.
 
2014-08-09 04:46:30 AM  
Subby didn't get to this bit, I think.

As Helgegren's article about the trip was only published recently, he suspected that much of the criticism stemmed from people's misconceptions about the situation in Israel at the time of the family's trip.
 
2014-08-09 06:24:57 AM  
Not really getting the "dumbass" part. Dad seems to have fulfilled his parental duties in spectacular fashion. Showed his sons a little truth of the world and gave them an experience they'll carry with them for their lives.
 
2014-08-09 06:37:39 AM  

gwowen: Gyrfalcon: AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.

O_O

If Gaza isn't your idea of an all out war zone, what the F*CK IS?!??!?

Your reading comprehension sucks.


and they didn't go to Gaza so your reading comprehension doubly sucks
 
2014-08-09 07:49:54 AM  

gfid: AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.

I've never been in a war zone so maybe I don't know what it's really like, but I see the images from Gaza, Syria, Ukraine, Iraq and Afghanistan as well as other war torn countries in Africa and I get the impression that it kind of sucks even if someone "wins".

That said, I can separate fantasy from reality and there's nothing wrong with a good video game that involves killing your opponents in very bloody ways.

/never played CoD
//used to play Doom so much I got jumpy when I heard certain sounds outside of gaming
///Doom gave me PTSD?  No, not really


Spec ops:the line is about as close as anything has come to giving me ptsd. I couldn't play anything really violent for months.

/Highly recommend it
// also highly recommend not reading too much about it before you play
 
2014-08-09 07:50:23 AM  

LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.


2.bp.blogspot.com

Why is the alt text for the img button "wheelchairs"?
 
2014-08-09 07:52:56 AM  

iron de havilland: Why is the alt text for the img button "wheelchairs"?


Totes swears it was when I composed that post. It now says "image".
 
2014-08-09 08:29:59 AM  
Father teaches sons lessons about reality of Religious fanatacism and hate by  c) taking them on a trip to the Israel and Palestine warzone

FTHLFY

There will always be war there.

My religion is better than your religion
 
2014-08-09 08:32:05 AM  

macross87: Ashelth: LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.

So you left them there?

I think he has a claw for a hand....


Ooo ooo!
 
2014-08-09 10:08:51 AM  

Hobbess: gfid: AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.

I've never been in a war zone so maybe I don't know what it's really like, but I see the images from Gaza, Syria, Ukraine, Iraq and Afghanistan as well as other war torn countries in Africa and I get the impression that it kind of sucks even if someone "wins".

That said, I can separate fantasy from reality and there's nothing wrong with a good video game that involves killing your opponents in very bloody ways.

/never played CoD
//used to play Doom so much I got jumpy when I heard certain sounds outside of gaming
///Doom gave me PTSD?  No, not really

Spec ops:the line is about as close as anything has come to giving me ptsd. I couldn't play anything really violent for months.

/Highly recommend it
// also highly recommend not reading too much about it before you play


The loading screens 'hints' toward the end were bad enough.

That game did a better job of portraying war as A Bad Thing since the player-character got nuked in CoD 4.
 
2014-08-09 10:13:19 AM  

Sarien: Guilty_plea_bargain:

So I'm still a bit confused as to why in tfa he states the closest you can get to war on a tourist ticket when there was no war at the time the tickets were purchased.

Because you're not really thinking about it?
He didn't want his kids to see people being blown apart by active shelling.  He wanted them to see that war has a cost, it has an impact, it has suffering, and it's not cool nor just a game.  The kinds of things you can get from an area that's been ravaged by such.  Their behavior quite obviously bothered him, to the point that he was willing to outlay the expense to make such a trip, and he did so as safely as possible.

Further, it sounds like the boys learned and got a great deal of life experience from going.

Tag should be changed from dumbass to hero, really.


Should have just bought them Spec Ops: The Line.

/Do you feel like a hero yet?
 
2014-08-09 10:16:43 AM  

Gyrfalcon: AirForceVet: Best idea to show one's kids what real war is like without going to an all-out war zone, IMHO.

O_O

If Gaza isn't your idea of an all out war zone, what the F*CK IS?!??!?


You do know that the media has been repeatedly caught using props to make the plight of the Palestinians look both worse and more noble than it actually is, right? A real war zone isn't as carefully tailored, managed, and airbrushed to evoke sympathy for the antagonists.

/it's an open-air Hollywood soundstage war zone
//which, unsurprisingly, convinces some rather dim people that it's more "real" than a real war zone
 
2014-08-09 10:37:48 AM  

Tatterdemalian: You do know that the media has been repeatedly caught using props to make the plight of the Palestinians look both worse and more noble than it actually is, right? A real war zone isn't as carefully tailored, managed, and airbrushed to evoke sympathy for the antagonists.

/it's an open-air Hollywood soundstage war zone
//which, unsurprisingly, convinces some rather dim people that it's more "real" than a real war zone


You need to go there and harangue the Palestinians, not us, brave warrior.
 
2014-08-09 11:17:35 AM  
Great idea, Dad. But did you show 'em the ditches full of ISIS executed shiite Iraqis? The grinning guy with a washtub full of severed heads (which weren't cut off after the fact)? The thousands of raped women and girls? The exploded body parts of a child bomber sent out by Hamas? The pier by the river where executions go on all day and night making the pier slick with blood? The blasted women and children forced at gunpoint by Hamas to remain in a building IDF has targeted because of rockets?

That truth is what Israel fights every day. A border the size of New Jersey against insanely evil Islam on every side.  Every side. Next time get the Mossad to give the boys an up close and personal tour what the MSM doesn't tell you ..
 
2014-08-09 11:19:47 AM  

jaytkay: Tatterdemalian: You do know that the media has been repeatedly caught using props to make the plight of the Palestinians look both worse and more noble than it actually is, right? A real war zone isn't as carefully tailored, managed, and airbrushed to evoke sympathy for the antagonists.

/it's an open-air Hollywood soundstage war zone
//which, unsurprisingly, convinces some rather dim people that it's more "real" than a real war zone

You need to go there and harangue the Palestinians, not us, brave warrior.


No, I think the cause of peace would be better served by haranguing the Palestinians' enablers. The Palestinians aren't going to stop making war as long as they have an audience that is willing to support and supply them, in exchange for Palestinians continuing to launch rockets at the Jews.

/that would be you
 
2014-08-09 11:31:10 AM  
Tatterdemalian: /an audience that is willing to support and supply them, in exchange for Palestinians continuing to launch rockets at the Jews

Yep, that's me.

I just get on the horn and say hey you Palestinians did you receive my package of support and supply today? Well get on it, start rocketing those Jews. Stat!
 
2014-08-09 12:08:11 PM  
FTFA"But in Sweden and Europe we are very privileged. We have all this wealth and rights and social services. And with that comes the responsibility to educate ourselves and not just become zombies playing video games and consuming hamburgers."


I guess the biggest issue is does it really matter if the kids have an unrealistic view of war? People throw around the word privileged as if it is necessarily a bad thing. I doubt his kids are going to go start a war themselves anytime soon.

/People who use "Privileged" in a negative matter are just as bad as people who use "Elite" the same way.
 
2014-08-09 12:12:51 PM  

LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.


Maybe you should stop trying to 'care' for children? Kids are  supposed to be unrealistic. They figure shiat out later. And those 'first world problems' the girls were complaining about were miniaturized versions of actual social problems they will have to deal with later--disappointment over not having the social status tool they feel they need to succeed (and yes, in some workforces social status tools are required), interpersonal conflict, romance...

They don't need 'a dose of reality', they need to be kids and deal with things on their level. They're not miniature adults.
 
2014-08-09 12:37:03 PM  

PsiChick: LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.

Maybe you should stop trying to 'care' for children? Kids are  supposed to be unrealistic. They figure shiat out later. And those 'first world problems' the girls were complaining about were miniaturized versions of actual social problems they will have to deal with later--disappointment over not having the social status tool they feel they need to succeed (and yes, in some workforces social status tools are required), interpersonal conflict, romance...

They don't need 'a dose of reality', they need to be kids and deal with things on their level. They're not miniature adults.


Well, I was talking about late teens girls, but as far as my own kids? I told both my boys to be kids as long as they can, because the reality of adulthood will come soon enough, with all the responsibilities, headaches, and problems that far outweigh any "cool stuff" adults get to do. I also don't shield them from learning about what those realities are, which doesn't mean I expose them to potential harm, or spend 24/7 being a debbie downer to them.

Kids sometimes need knowledge that puts things into perspective, because you know what? Kids are just as intelligent at age 5 as they are at age 50... what they lack is experience and a knowledgebase. There is no such thing as "forbidden knowledge" because as a parent, you do not have 100% control over these sort of things; that said, how you deal with such revelations determines what sort of parent you are. I applaud this guy for showing his kids a dose of reality and why... exactly... they should be kids and enjoy what they have, and take the reality of war into consideration when they idolize and even celebrate a soldier's lifestyle. Soldiers know better, but if their sole reason for becoming one is because they romanticized the job playing video games, well, they are likely to not be very happy with their choices.

The trick is to give them the knowledge without traumatizing them. I think this guy did a good job of exposing them to reality without endangering them. Those kids will digest the information just fine, and you'd be wrong to think their child brains can't digest a "dose of reality" in that situation.
 
2014-08-09 12:50:47 PM  

LesserEvil: PsiChick: LesserEvil: Why's he a dumbass? His kids had an unrealistic idea of war being "cool" and he showed them a dose of reality.

I used to take girls I knew who had "first world problems" complaining about their parents and boring lives down to the Cass Corridor in Detroit. Seeing a heroin addict shooting up on a bus bench, street walkers, and gunshot-crippled gang bangers tooling around in wheel chairs usually put things into perspective for them.

After they earned enough, I'd take them back home.

jk about that last part, of course.

Maybe you should stop trying to 'care' for children? Kids are  supposed to be unrealistic. They figure shiat out later. And those 'first world problems' the girls were complaining about were miniaturized versions of actual social problems they will have to deal with later--disappointment over not having the social status tool they feel they need to succeed (and yes, in some workforces social status tools are required), interpersonal conflict, romance...

They don't need 'a dose of reality', they need to be kids and deal with things on their level. They're not miniature adults.

Well, I was talking about late teens girls, but as far as my own kids? I told both my boys to be kids as long as they can, because the reality of adulthood will come soon enough, with all the responsibilities, headaches, and problems that far outweigh any "cool stuff" adults get to do. I also don't shield them from learning about what those realities are, which doesn't mean I expose them to potential harm, or spend 24/7 being a debbie downer to them.

Kids sometimes need knowledge that puts things into perspective, because you know what? Kids are just as intelligent at age 5 as they are at age 50... what they lack is experience and a knowledgebase. There is no such thing as "forbidden knowledge" because as a parent, you do not have 100% control over these sort of things; that said, how you deal with such revelations determines what sort of parent you are. ...


Yeah...no. Kids may have the same  IQ score, but they are not  developmentally the same. Sure, you can expose kids to that and not traumatize them, but it wasn't actually necessary in the first place; they were working on entirely different problems. A field trip to Israel didn't hurt the kids FTFA, but that doesn't mean they aren't still glorifying situations, or even that they understand that conflict. They've just found something different to glorify. The dad could have set that up by waiting a month or two for them to find a new hobby, and it would have the same net effect.
 
2014-08-09 01:04:27 PM  

jaytkay: Tatterdemalian: /an audience that is willing to support and supply them, in exchange for Palestinians continuing to launch rockets at the Jews

Yep, that's me.

I just get on the horn and say hey you Palestinians did you receive my package of support and supply today? Well get on it, start rocketing those Jews. Stat!


Yup, that's you. And when those packages of bombs and guns are intercepted by Israel, you scream "THEY ARE BESIEGING GAZA! HUMANITARIAN CRISIS!"

/see, the thing is, you really are a monster in fact, which is why you try to pretend the people arrayed against you are metaphorical monsters
//you can deny and spin all you want, but things will just keep getting more farked up and the Muslim Brotherhood will keep winning more and more until you are dead or in jail
///yes, you, personally
 
2014-08-09 01:42:19 PM  
And when one of the kids steps on an IED and blows off a leg. That'll teach him, hu dad.
 
2014-08-09 02:14:54 PM  
How is he a dumbass? If more of you pieces of shiat saw the actual realities of war, there'd be huge percentages less of you always wooping and hollering for war. In fact, anybody who thinks we should go to war should be forced to spend 3 months on the front lines of a combat zone before they are allowed to vote on going to war.
 
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