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(Marketwatch)   Hey, remember when 'Cash for Clunkers' sounded like a good thing? Yeah, well neither do I   (blogs.marketwatch.com) divider line 76
    More: Fail, automakers, relative term, revenues  
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3590 clicks; posted to Business » on 08 Aug 2014 at 4:01 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-08 02:43:36 PM  
Everyone rushed out and bout a Corolla?  Sounds like C4C worked out for Toyota.
 
2014-08-08 03:09:00 PM  
A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.
 
2014-08-08 03:30:58 PM  
5 years later and you libtards still can't admit that if not for cash for clunkers, most of those Corolla buyers would have purchased a new Viper, Corvette, Ford F-350 Dually, or more likely all three.

Thanks Obama.
 
2014-08-08 04:00:47 PM  
As the country emerged from the recession, a federal stimulus program cut auto industry revenue by about $3 billion in less than one year, according to new research.

Since TFA didn't see fit to provide a link, I think I found the one they're discussing:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w16351

While Cash for Clunkers didn't seem to have a significant (or at least definitely visible) long-term effect on auto sales or employment, it did seem to have beneficial macroeconomic effects in the areas that saw high "exposure" to the program - i.e. cities where lots of people had cars they wanted to trade in (see Figure 8 in the PDF). In other words, while it didn't get more people to buy cars, it did get money into the hands of people who did want to get cars, and that money helped the communities they were in.
 
2014-08-08 04:07:33 PM  

Arkanaut: As the country emerged from the recession, a federal stimulus program cut auto industry revenue by about $3 billion in less than one year, according to new research.

Since TFA didn't see fit to provide a link, I think I found the one they're discussing:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w16351

While Cash for Clunkers didn't seem to have a significant (or at least definitely visible) long-term effect on auto sales or employment, it did seem to have beneficial macroeconomic effects in the areas that saw high "exposure" to the program - i.e. cities where lots of people had cars they wanted to trade in (see Figure 8 in the PDF). In other words, while it didn't get more people to buy cars, it did get money into the hands of people who did want to get cars, and that money helped the communities they were in.


So it helped the one percent (new car dealerships) and their employees, but screwed over other members (used car dealers, junkyard owners) and people who can't afford to buy a new car. Used car prices went up, as did costs of parts for repairing them.
 
2014-08-08 04:10:28 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: 5 years later and you libtards still can't admit that if not for cash for clunkers, most of those Corolla buyers would have purchased a new Viper, Corvette, Ford F-350 Dually, or more likely all three.

Thanks Obama.


Yea... that's... that's the part that's confusing me. Maybe the paper clarifies it, but I find it hard to accept, just from a blog post, the notion that all those Corolla buyers were going to go out and get half tons until they saw they could get a rebate on a little four door economy car. Especially coming off rising gas prices and smack in the middle of the effect of the recession.

Sounds like somebody comparing a "what if" to a "what did" and coming up with the largest theoretically possible difference to me.
 
2014-08-08 04:12:37 PM  

James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.


Do you get paid for this kind of thread policing or is it just a real passion?

/I cashed in on that. Bought a Lexus.
 
2014-08-08 04:13:24 PM  
"By lowering the relative price of smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles, the program induced households to purchase vehicles that cost between $4,000 and $6,000 less than the vehicles they otherwise would have purchased."

I had to remind myself of the stipulations of this to understand:

To get the full $4,500 credit, consumers must buy either a new truck or sport utility vehicle that is rated at least five miles per gallon higher than the scrapped vehicle or a passenger car that is rated at least 10 miles per gallon higher than the scrapped vehicle.

I'm trying to understand how $4,000 to $6,000 was the tipping point of whatever additional mileage was needed to achieve 5 to 10 better.  There's math isn't there?  I dream of a world where math has been replaced with hookers.
 
2014-08-08 04:13:52 PM  

James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.


I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed.  Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now.  Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.

Thanks dumbass city slicker Fartbongo!
 
2014-08-08 04:14:32 PM  

ArkAngel: Used car prices went up, as did costs of parts for repairing them.


That's good if you're selling.
 
2014-08-08 04:14:59 PM  

Nabb1: James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.

Do you get paid for this kind of thread policing or is it just a real passion?

/I cashed in on that. Bought a Lexus.


Do you get paid for this kind of comment policing or is it just a real passion?
 
2014-08-08 04:15:46 PM  
If I remember correctly, the "cash for clunkers" program was not about stimulating the auto industry, it was about reducing air pollution.  As per wiki:  <b>  purchase a new, more fuel-efficient vehicle when trading in a less fuel-efficient vehicle. </b>

Yes, a bunch of anti-environmentalist Conservatives were sold on it by pointing out the potential side benefits to the auto industry, but only a total moron would think that was it's purpose.

The reason everyone bought small cars was that you could not just go and by ANY car you wanted, it had to give off less air pollution.

That means this article:

1) Proved nothing
2) Was written by an idiot
3) Was a total waste of time.

If you want to measure the success of a government program, you have to measure what it was clearly and obviously designed to do, not what a bunch of money obsessed idiots that latched onto the program wanted it to do.
 
2014-08-08 04:17:39 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.

I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed.  Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now.  Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.

Thanks dumbass city slicker Fartbongo!


Maybe in the future, there will be old cars again... maybe.
 
2014-08-08 04:21:16 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Smeggy Smurf: James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.

I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed.  Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now.  Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.

Thanks dumbass city slicker Fartbongo!

Maybe in the future, there will be old cars again... maybe.


Obama used his time machine to go back and kill Henry Ford and John DeLorean thereby ensuring that we all have to buy hand-assembled Pierce-Arrows.
 
2014-08-08 04:21:20 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Maybe in the future, there will be old cars again... maybe.


Hey now. If I cain't drive around in a 1987 Plymouth Reliant with busted air bags, wonky brakes and a cracked windshield then this ain't no 'murica I know.
 
2014-08-08 04:22:34 PM  

James!: Nabb1: James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.

Do you get paid for this kind of thread policing or is it just a real passion?

/I cashed in on that. Bought a Lexus.

Do you get paid for this kind of comment policing or is it just a real passion?


Hey, just funnin' you, man. You seem to be real committed to the Democrats, though. I admire that kind of passion and loyalty to a cause.
 
2014-08-08 04:23:00 PM  

skozlaw: Rapmaster2000: Maybe in the future, there will be old cars again... maybe.

Hey now. If I cain't drive around in a 1987 Plymouth Reliant with busted air bags, wonky brakes and a cracked windshield then this ain't no 'murica I know.


My friend had one of those.  I think it was an '85.  It had no power steering.

The first car I drove without power steering was a CRX.  I was very confused at first.
 
2014-08-08 04:25:33 PM  
So let me get this straight... This article is claiming the people who traded in their worthless junkers to get a $4,500 credit towards a $10,000, more fuel and environmentally friendly, vehicle, would have instead spent $14-16,000 on a vehicle with no stimulus?
 
2014-08-08 04:35:42 PM  

Nabb1: James!: Nabb1: James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.

Do you get paid for this kind of thread policing or is it just a real passion?

/I cashed in on that. Bought a Lexus.

Do you get paid for this kind of comment policing or is it just a real passion?

Hey, just funnin' you, man. You seem to be real committed to the Democrats, though. I admire that kind of passion and loyalty to a cause.


Yes, it's only through party loyalty that I commented about the article being stupid.
 
2014-08-08 04:38:02 PM  
Aren't we also supposed to get a MarketWatch article explaining how Cash for Clunkers was a success?
 
2014-08-08 04:43:39 PM  

skozlaw: Eddie Adams from Torrance: 5 years later and you libtards still can't admit that if not for cash for clunkers, most of those Corolla buyers would have purchased a new Viper, Corvette, Ford F-350 Dually, or more likely all three.

Thanks Obama.

Yea... that's... that's the part that's confusing me. Maybe the paper clarifies it, but I find it hard to accept, just from a blog post, the notion that all those Corolla buyers were going to go out and get half tons until they saw they could get a rebate on a little four door economy car. Especially coming off rising gas prices and smack in the middle of the effect of the recession.

Sounds like somebody comparing a "what if" to a "what did" and coming up with the largest theoretically possible difference to me.


I understood it as the incentive was disapropiately skewed towards fuelefficient cars.

Why this is a bad thing, I don't grasp though.
 
2014-08-08 04:43:40 PM  

Arkanaut: While Cash for Clunkers didn't seem to have a significant (or at least definitely visible) long-term effect on auto sales or employment, it did seem to have beneficial macroeconomic effects in the areas that saw high "exposure" to the program


I do know one that had an undeniably positive effect on U.S. employment. Not electing someone who would have allowed (possibly even danced with glee at) the demise of GM.
 
2014-08-08 04:44:18 PM  

Farkn Yaj Yenrac: So let me get this straight... This article is claiming the people who traded in their worthless junkers to get a $4,500 credit towards a $10,000, more fuel and environmentally friendly, vehicle, would have instead spent $14-16,000 on a vehicle with no stimulus?


No.  They're saying that people who have clunkers tend to migrate up from true beater to better used car to new cars. The C4C program encouraged them instead to have their car destroyed and take on a new car payment for an entry level new car.  The clunkers that were road worthy could have been bought by other people in weaker economic positions, the ones that were beyond road worthy would have been sold to scrap yards where the second hand parts would have helped keep other cars on the road longer.  The clunkers program basically gutted the used car market for more than half a decade and caused some serious economic pressure as low income individuals had a much depleted used car market to shop in.

I never heard of the C4C program being described as some big environmental program.  I remember that as a justification, but secondary (and largely seen as a token throw to the environmental wing since this was a bail out to Detroit) to pumping money into Detroit automakers.  At the time I remember discussions of it being ineffective on the economic grounds because it would primarily pull new car demand forward a few months (causing leaner out months until market slack returned to normal) and destroyed the used car market.
 
2014-08-08 04:44:41 PM  
It definitely screwed over the used car market.  The price of beater cars that didn't make the gas mileage cut about tripled.
 
2014-08-08 04:45:52 PM  

Rapmaster2000: I'm trying to understand how $4,000 to $6,000 was the tipping point of whatever additional mileage was needed to achieve 5 to 10 better.  There's math isn't there?  I dream of a world where math has been replaced with hookers.


If you had a beater that was rated at 17MPG, it's not hard to find a decent car for 27.  If you didn't, then it was worth acquiring one for the credit.

tarkin1: If I remember correctly, the "cash for clunkers" program was not about stimulating the auto industry, it was about reducing air pollution.


By that logic, voter ID laws are about preventing fraud.

(And if that actually was the purpose, it was even more of a colossal failure than just as corporate welfare.)

Yes, a bunch of anti-environmentalist Conservatives were sold on it by pointing out the potential side benefits to the auto industry, but only a total moron would think that was it's purpose.

That's adorable.

The reason everyone bought small cars was that you could not just go and by ANY car you wanted, it had to give off less air pollution.

It's hard to find a new car that pollutes more than anything with trading in under that program.  I mean other than all the people who traded in old F150 for a new F150, the most common trades of the program.  Note that I think of it, I wonder how many coal rollers for their trucks with this program.

If you want to measure the success of a government program, you have to measure what it was clearly and obviously designed to do, not what a bunch of money obsessed idiots that latched onto the program wanted it to do.

Here's one measurement which in my opinion is to to generous, as it presumes a car traded in would be driven indefinitely otherwise.

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/05/08/08greenwire-clunkers-deal-fo r- autos-stirs-questions-about-12208.html
 
2014-08-08 05:06:26 PM  
The argument here seems to be "People bought too many cheap compacts and not enough expensive (and profitable) huge SUVs due to the Cash for Clunkers program".

I, frankly don't see a problem here.
 
2014-08-08 05:12:17 PM  
C4C was the closest thing to robbing a bank for me.  I had an old beater Dodge Ram pickup that I had parked about 4 years prior when gasoline got to $4 a gallon because the 50 gallon tank was $200 to fill up and it got about 10 miles per gallon in city driving.  It had sprung a major transmission leak and I just didn't feel like fixing it.  Then C4C came around so I picked out a 2009 Hyundai Accent that was on the sale floor at the dealer because no one wanted the car with the manual transmission.  I aired up the tires on the pickup, jump started the engine with a can of ether spraying down the carb, poured a gallon of transmission fluid into the transformer, and then drove it very carefully across town because the rear brake lines had rotted out.  It pissed a stream of transmission fluid all the way there and the salesman saw me drive it onto the lot to prove that it wasn't a wreck that had to be towed in.

$9,970 base price on the Accent so the $4,500 credit was like a 45% discount from MSRP (though I paid $1,000 extra for air conditioning).
 
2014-08-08 05:22:51 PM  
I bought a new car spring of 2008 and got rid of my junker for scrap value. If I had waited 6 months not only would that car have been much cheaper but I could have gotten the credit for the clunker.

That still pisses me off, basically several thousand dollars lost.
 
2014-08-08 05:32:21 PM  
It wiped out an entire generation of cheap starter cars.
 
2014-08-08 05:54:15 PM  

StrikitRich: Everyone rushed out and bout a Corolla?  Sounds like C4C worked out for Toyota.


If I could have waited a few more months, I would have been able to buy my Corolla with cash.  Unfortunately, my old car was literally falling apart.

Anyway, so it didn't work.  They tried different strategies to see what would work, which is more than the Republicans were willing to do.
 
2014-08-08 06:01:56 PM  

Nemo's Brother: It wiped out an entire generation of cheap starter cars.


That was the point.  The program worked perfectly
 
2014-08-08 06:18:10 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed.  Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now.  Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.


I don't know about your area, but for me Craigslist is full of old cars like this:
img.fark.net
 
2014-08-08 06:21:54 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed. Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now. Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.

Thanks dumbass city slicker Fartbongo!


Five years later, how many of those vehicles with a trade-in value of $4,500 or less would still be running? I was just at a junkyard a couple of weeks ago. Even most of their cars are 15 years old or newer. In short, get over it. The market has recovered by now.
 
TKM
2014-08-08 06:36:21 PM  
Who else was dumb enough to fall for this crap?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrappage_program
 
2014-08-08 06:37:54 PM  

James!: Nabb1: James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.

Do you get paid for this kind of thread policing or is it just a real passion?

/I cashed in on that. Bought a Lexus.

Do you get paid for this kind of comment policing or is it just a real passion?


he bought an overpriced corolla
 
2014-08-08 06:43:26 PM  

bgilmore5: Smeggy Smurf: I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed. Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now. Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.

Thanks dumbass city slicker Fartbongo!

Five years later, how many of those vehicles with a trade-in value of $4,500 or less would still be running? I was just at a junkyard a couple of weeks ago. Even most of their cars are 15 years old or newer. In short, get over it. The market has recovered by now.


You must not be in the market for old beater pickups.  I'd give your left nut to get my hands on a mid 60's Chevy
 
2014-08-08 06:57:35 PM  
Well, we traded in an old GMC Safari that was on it's last legs for a new Hyundai Accent.

Would have rather gotten a somewhat larger car  (Sonota or even a Santa Fee or Tucson) but the milage difference was not enough to qualify for the whole $4500 discount.
 
2014-08-08 07:10:22 PM  

James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.


If only there were some article, possibly even linked to the Fark headline, about the extensive research that economists had done to demonstrate that the program acted as a negative stimulus, not a positive one.
 
2014-08-08 07:14:13 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: bgilmore5: Smeggy Smurf: I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed. Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now. Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.

Thanks dumbass city slicker Fartbongo!

Five years later, how many of those vehicles with a trade-in value of $4,500 or less would still be running? I was just at a junkyard a couple of weeks ago. Even most of their cars are 15 years old or newer. In short, get over it. The market has recovered by now.

You must not be in the market for old beater pickups.  I'd give your left nut to get my hands on a mid 60's Chevy


Dafuq? You realize the mid-'60s is 50 years ago now? How many of those things did you think were left on the road before C4C? I highly doubt the total death count for those things due to C4C reached triple digits. If you were talking '80s models, you might have a case.

C4C was a holocaust for mid-'90s Explorers and Blazers. They weren't worth anything before C4C and they still aren't worth anything now. However, there is a strong market for '09 and '10 small cars.....
 
2014-08-08 07:15:05 PM  
Was anyone forced to participate in this program? Threatened with arrest? made to sell at gunpoint? Even one person?

No?

Then shut the f*ck up. "Wahh I'm pissed because I couldn't buy someone's piece of junk!"
Well tough sh*t, pissbaby. The owner didn't have to sell it to you and you had no claim or entitlement to it.
IT WASN'T YOURS TO HAVE. So suck it up and deal with the fact that the program worked, and that you can't always get what you want.  Welcome to adulthood. And yes there are still plenty of old cars for sale, as the Craigslist ad above shows. Time makes cars older (imagine that!) and less valuable.

Fewer broken down gas guzzling air polluting pieces of sh*t on the roads is always a good thing.
 
2014-08-08 07:21:53 PM  
Well, if it wasn't profitable enough for industry, let's us overpaid white people who write for some punk assed money rag proclaim it a failure.
Because other than money, there is no POSSIBLE benefit to society in trading out a bunch of old cars for new ones. None at all.
Nope.
F**king assholes.
 
2014-08-08 07:38:25 PM  

rewind2846: Was anyone forced to participate in this program?


Yes.  We're called taxpayers.
 
2014-08-08 07:51:15 PM  

James!: A short stimulus for the auto industry that increased car buying at the weakest point for manufacturers and republicans are still pissed 5 years later.


Try reading the article.
 
2014-08-08 07:54:15 PM  

Mentat: StrikitRich: Everyone rushed out and bout a Corolla?  Sounds like C4C worked out for Toyota.

If I could have waited a few more months, I would have been able to buy my Corolla with cash.  Unfortunately, my old car was literally falling apart.

Anyway, so it didn't work.  They tried different strategies to see what would work, which is more than the Republicans were willing to do.


You liberals refuse to admit when a program fails.
CFC failed.
 
2014-08-08 07:58:46 PM  

Farkn Yaj Yenrac: So let me get this straight... This article is claiming the people who traded in their worthless junkers to get a $4,500 credit towards a $10,000, more fuel and environmentally friendly, vehicle, would have instead spent $14-16,000 on a vehicle with no stimulus?


Yup. During the Great Recession, even.

I'd like to see what the study would look like if they had assumed that people would have held on to their clunkers until the economy improved.
 
2014-08-08 08:03:08 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Smeggy Smurf: I'm pissed that every clunker that was part of this was crushed.  Cheap beater vehicles are a thing of the past now.  Teenagers are going to be stuck making payments on cars that they should have been able to pay cash for.

I don't know about your area, but for me Craigslist is full of old cars like this:
[img.fark.net image 850x592]


Don't pay him any mind. This is the talking point that the right wing decided to run with to show that cash for clinkers hurt the middle class. They still run with it even though anybody with half a brain and a news paper or internet connection can quickly find a car for under $2000 dollars in any city in America.
 
2014-08-08 08:08:11 PM  

douchebag/hater: Mentat: StrikitRich: Everyone rushed out and bout a Corolla?  Sounds like C4C worked out for Toyota.

If I could have waited a few more months, I would have been able to buy my Corolla with cash.  Unfortunately, my old car was literally falling apart.

Anyway, so it didn't work.  They tried different strategies to see what would work, which is more than the Republicans were willing to do.

You liberals refuse to admit when a program fails.
CFC failed.


How exactly did it fail? It was meant for one to keep auto manufacturers from going under by helping them get rid of inventory they couldn't move. And by keeping the manufacturers from going under, it kept their suppliers from going under, which both saved thousands of jobs. Those were the main goals for cash for clunkers. And before you say again it was a failure, tell me exactly how many American auto manufacturers failed and how many of the manufacturers suppliers went out of business?
 
2014-08-08 08:23:07 PM  
Yep. Couldn't even get a dime for dear old mom.
 
2014-08-08 08:54:50 PM  
CSB time I guess....

I used to work for a company that does computer systems: servers, work stations, handheld scanners, printers, etc for automobile dealerships. Cash for Clunkers saved a lot of jobs in a number of departments. Everyone saw a major upswing in call volume, ordering and customers signing back on. They had been hemorrhaging clients up until that point (from about 10000 systems to about 3500) and were already cutting back staff to the bare minimums. Some of that was mismanagement and some of that was just from the economy tanking. After the program wound down, dealers who had been on the brink decided they could extend their contracts for another year, so I guess it helped some people.
 
2014-08-08 09:00:50 PM  

Uewebawo: CSB time I guess....

I used to work for a company that does computer systems: servers, work stations, handheld scanners, printers, etc for automobile dealerships. Cash for Clunkers saved a lot of jobs in a number of departments. Everyone saw a major upswing in call volume, ordering and customers signing back on. They had been hemorrhaging clients up until that point (from about 10000 systems to about 3500) and were already cutting back staff to the bare minimums. Some of that was mismanagement and some of that was just from the economy tanking. After the program wound down, dealers who had been on the brink decided they could extend their contracts for another year, so I guess it helped some people.


But, but Cash for Clunkers was a failure!
 
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