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(The New York Times)   Mission Accomplished.... wait. No? Averted? Yes? Ok. Mission Averted   (nytimes.com) divider line 67
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3839 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Aug 2014 at 2:12 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-06 12:41:01 PM  
Many Muslims don't get along.

Who knew?
 
2014-08-06 01:04:55 PM  
These ISIS guys are getting in the Kurdish way. They're going to get knocked right off their tuffet.
 
2014-08-06 01:41:47 PM  
So a shiite just ordered the Iraqi military to support the Kurds.

Maybe they are finally coming together.

I think that was Saddam Hussein's key to maintaining power - he was brutal, so they all hated him more than they disagreed with one another. He wasn't just their leader, he was their common enemy in the hatred of whom they could identify with one another.

Maybe this whole ISIS thing could lead to more unity after they are defeated, since most Iraqis are used to a secular government and aren't as interested in a theocracy as what most people are led to believe. A three-state solution with division of oil revenues for public infrastructure and schools might be workable. However, at the moment, I think most Iraqis would settle for just about any functioning government.
 
2014-08-06 01:47:19 PM  

ox45tallboy: Maybe they are finally coming together.


I wish I had that optimism.  Unfortunately, short-lived but expedient partnerships and alliances are extremely common in the Middle East and we are guilty of engaging in them there ourselves.  They rarely result in progress toward peace.  At best, just progress past whatever the day's conflict is.  There are tribal and ethnic rivalries at play that are older than Islam itself.  This desperation move by al-Maliki is not going to surmount those in the long run.
 
2014-08-06 02:14:58 PM  
I think we've turned the corner, if you will.
 
2014-08-06 02:16:07 PM  
I think when we look back from 10 years hence, we'll see that the year '14 was in fact a watershed year here in Iraq.
 
2014-08-06 02:19:33 PM  
While I may come off as uncouth since people are suffering due instability we caused, it is Iraq's problem.  They wanted us out, we left.
 
2014-08-06 02:20:16 PM  
I think the U.S. could really do some good in this situation. We should help out, send a few troops. See what happens.

/not serious
 
2014-08-06 02:23:17 PM  
Vietnam II electric boogaloo
 
2014-08-06 02:26:25 PM  

Car_Ramrod: I think the U.S. could really do some good in this situation. We should help out, send a few troops. See what happens.

/not serious


I'd actually be ok with airstrikes/drones to help the Kurds.  Those guys seem to have a stable, mostly non-theocratic, and non-terrorist-haven government going on up there.  They've also been oppressed for so long that I don't mind seeing them get some independence.
 
2014-08-06 02:26:30 PM  
Well, the Kurds will view us a liberators.  1 out of 3 ain't bad for baseball hitting averages.
 
2014-08-06 02:27:13 PM  

Diogenes: ox45tallboy: Maybe they are finally coming together.

I wish I had that optimism.  Unfortunately, short-lived but expedient partnerships and alliances are extremely common in the Middle East and we are guilty of engaging in them there ourselves.  They rarely result in progress toward peace.  At best, just progress past whatever the day's conflict is.  There are tribal and ethnic rivalries at play that are older than Islam itself.  This desperation move by al-Maliki is not going to surmount those in the long run.


While true, hopefully the recognition by the current government that they are essentially helpless without the Kurdish people will influence the future.  The alliance may be temporary at best but if your citizenry begins to see the necessary cooperation there might be a future, granted a potentially long way off.  You don't just discard those rivalries overnight.  Perhaps with a Prime Minister less focused on sectarian superiority, we could see that change.
 
2014-08-06 02:27:18 PM  
 the selection of a new prime minister who can unify Iraq and credibly confront the extremists.


cdn.filmschoolrejects.com
 
2014-08-06 02:27:38 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: Car_Ramrod: I think the U.S. could really do some good in this situation. We should help out, send a few troops. See what happens.

/not serious

I'd actually be ok with airstrikes/drones to help the Kurds.  Those guys seem to have a stable, mostly non-theocratic, and non-terrorist-haven government going on up there.  They've also been oppressed for so long that I don't mind seeing them get some independence.


Difficulty: Turkey.
 
2014-08-06 02:28:11 PM  

Blues_X: Many Muslims don't get along.

Who knew?


Not Bush
 
2014-08-06 02:28:39 PM  
Bar when Bush was president: Things are great because they are killing Americans over there not here!!

Bar now: OMG Iraqis are killing Iraqis what a failure!!

Look we can't force people to get their shiat together. They have to want to and help. Maliki is horrible.
 
2014-08-06 02:29:46 PM  

qorkfiend: HMS_Blinkin: Car_Ramrod: I think the U.S. could really do some good in this situation. We should help out, send a few troops. See what happens.

/not serious

I'd actually be ok with airstrikes/drones to help the Kurds.  Those guys seem to have a stable, mostly non-theocratic, and non-terrorist-haven government going on up there.  They've also been oppressed for so long that I don't mind seeing them get some independence.

Difficulty: Turkey.


Yeah, I know.  Reality and all that.  It's too bad about the Kurds though.  There's a people that haven't really ever gotten great treatment, you know?
 
2014-08-06 02:33:50 PM  
Wait. The Kurds, having been trained and funded by Israel and the US for decades, failed to fight to a win?

You mean criminals and thugs will suck your money teat while mumbling something about shared goals and team victory and dying for a cause then bravely run away with your cash?

Huh. Never could have seen that happening to the agency and our military.
 
2014-08-06 02:36:58 PM  

Summoner101: While I may come off as uncouth since people are suffering due instability we caused, it is Iraq's problem.  They wanted us out, we left.


I agree.

We can't change the past now, it's time to stop meddling. Maybe Iraq will hold together, maybe it will splinter. It really makes no difference to me anyway. It's too bad all the death and suffering has been for nothing though. But, there's nothing we can do about it now though, except learn from the mistakes and not repeat them.
 
2014-08-06 02:37:04 PM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Wait. The Kurds, having been trained and funded by Israel and the US for decades, failed to fight to a win?

You mean criminals and thugs will suck your money teat while mumbling something about shared goals and team victory and dying for a cause then bravely run away with your cash?

Huh. Never could have seen that happening to the agency and our military.


I doubt they were ever told they'd be an invincible fighting force.
 
2014-08-06 02:38:42 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: qorkfiend: HMS_Blinkin: Car_Ramrod: I think the U.S. could really do some good in this situation. We should help out, send a few troops. See what happens.

/not serious

I'd actually be ok with airstrikes/drones to help the Kurds.  Those guys seem to have a stable, mostly non-theocratic, and non-terrorist-haven government going on up there.  They've also been oppressed for so long that I don't mind seeing them get some independence.

Difficulty: Turkey.

Yeah, I know.  Reality and all that.  It's too bad about the Kurds though.  There's a people that haven't really ever gotten great treatment, you know?


No, no they haven't. I suspect that eventually they'll just go ahead and declare Kurdistan, and dare Turkey and Iraq to do something about it.
 
2014-08-06 02:40:58 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Wait. The Kurds, having been trained and funded by Israel and the US for decades, failed to fight to a win?

You mean criminals and thugs will suck your money teat while mumbling something about shared goals and team victory and dying for a cause then bravely run away with your cash?

Huh. Never could have seen that happening to the agency and our military.

I doubt they were ever told they'd be an invincible fighting force.


B..b..b..but the Kurds--along with other groups Israel and the US were training--were going to overthrow the Iranian government.
They were our anointed freedom fighters, our mujahideen.
 
2014-08-06 02:42:17 PM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Wait. The Kurds, having been trained and funded by Israel and the US for decades, failed to fight to a win?

You mean criminals and thugs will suck your money teat while mumbling something about shared goals and team victory and dying for a cause then bravely run away with your cash?

Huh. Never could have seen that happening to the agency and our military.


No, watch some videos of the Kurds pulling out, it was a well organized maneuver most likely to kick Washington in the pants to get them military support. That seems to be the consensus.
 
2014-08-06 02:45:48 PM  

qorkfiend: HMS_Blinkin: Car_Ramrod: I think the U.S. could really do some good in this situation. We should help out, send a few troops. See what happens.

/not serious

I'd actually be ok with airstrikes/drones to help the Kurds.  Those guys seem to have a stable, mostly non-theocratic, and non-terrorist-haven government going on up there.  They've also been oppressed for so long that I don't mind seeing them get some independence.

Difficulty: Turkey.


Well, colonial imperialism contributed to the mess, let's do it again.  I say, no more Syria.  The Kurds will get northern Iraq and part of eastern Turkey, while Syria becomes Turkish territory.  NATO helps Turkey deal with the rebels in former-Syria.  If the Turks are up for it, they can have Lebanon too, but they're responsible for cleaning it up and getting along with the Israelis.

While we're at it, we may want to consider ceding eastern Iraq to Iran and southern Iraq to Saudi Arabia.
 
2014-08-06 02:46:06 PM  

but whole: We can't change the past now, it's time to stop meddling. Maybe Iraq will hold together, maybe it will splinter. It really makes no difference to me anyway. It's too bad all the death and suffering has been for nothing though. But, there's nothing we can do about it now though, except learn from the mistakes and not repeat them.


Some people don't get that even if they current option sucks, doing something else could suck even more.
 
2014-08-06 02:50:18 PM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Wait. The Kurds, having been trained and funded by Israel and the US for decades, failed to fight to a win?

You mean criminals and thugs will suck your money teat while mumbling something about shared goals and team victory and dying for a cause then bravely run away with your cash?

Huh. Never could have seen that happening to the agency and our military.


Yeah, right? After holding their own through Iraq I, the interim (dealing with Saddam), Iraq II, the Syrian Civil War, getting farked with by the Turks every few weeks, the Kurds are just pussies.

// there's a reason Kurdistan is "autonomous", and it ain't "the kindness of strangers"
 
2014-08-06 02:52:59 PM  

Corvus: Bar when Bush was president: Things are great because they are killing Americans over there not here!!

Bar now: OMG Iraqis are killing Iraqis what a failure!!

Look we can't force people to get their shiat together. They have to want to and help. Maliki is horrible.


Then:  They hate us for our freedumz.

Now:  It's a complicated situation dating back hundreds if not thousands of years and how could Obongo fail to understand that?
 
2014-08-06 02:53:42 PM  

Lord_Baull: I think we've turned the corner, if you will.




If you mean we've been around the this block a few times, then yes.

ox45tallboy: So a shiite just ordered the Iraqi military to support the Kurds.

Maybe they are finally coming together.

I think that was Saddam Hussein's key to maintaining power - he was brutal, so they all hated him more than they disagreed with one another. He wasn't just their leader, he was their common enemy in the hatred of whom they could identify with one another.

Maybe this whole ISIS thing could lead to more unity after they are defeated, since most Iraqis are used to a secular government and aren't as interested in a theocracy as what most people are led to believe. A three-state solution with division of oil revenues for public infrastructure and schools might be workable. However, at the moment, I think most Iraqis would settle for just about any functioning government.


Saddam ruled because he did not care about religion. He saw the need for consolidating power and keeping it. Then he used that collective power to crush any opposition.

Iraq has, from its creation, a european construct, not a natural growth of the population.
 
2014-08-06 02:55:32 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: Diogenes: ox45tallboy: Maybe they are finally coming together.

I wish I had that optimism.  Unfortunately, short-lived but expedient partnerships and alliances are extremely common in the Middle East and we are guilty of engaging in them there ourselves.  They rarely result in progress toward peace.  At best, just progress past whatever the day's conflict is.  There are tribal and ethnic rivalries at play that are older than Islam itself.  This desperation move by al-Maliki is not going to surmount those in the long run.

While true, hopefully the recognition by the current government that they are essentially helpless without the Kurdish people will influence the future.  The alliance may be temporary at best but if your citizenry begins to see the necessary cooperation there might be a future, granted a potentially long way off.  You don't just discard those rivalries overnight.  Perhaps with a Prime Minister less focused on sectarian superiority, we could see that change.


Oh, I think it's a great step and very necessary.  I hope it's just not too little, too late.
 
2014-08-06 02:55:41 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Wait. The Kurds, having been trained and funded by Israel and the US for decades, failed to fight to a win?

You mean criminals and thugs will suck your money teat while mumbling something about shared goals and team victory and dying for a cause then bravely run away with your cash?

Huh. Never could have seen that happening to the agency and our military.

Yeah, right? After holding their own through Iraq I, the interim (dealing with Saddam), Iraq II, the Syrian Civil War, getting farked with by the Turks every few weeks, the Kurds are just pussies.

// there's a reason Kurdistan is "autonomous", and it ain't "the kindness of strangers"


They "captured" northern oil fields and are now have given them to ISIS. Along with the most important and most "dangerous" dam in Iraq. They may be good at what they have traditionally done but playing organized army for the US and Israel isn't something they do too well.

I'm not sure that the oil fields wouldn't have fallen to ISIS if the Kurds hadn't liberated them from their fellow Iraqi countrymen but I'm pretty sure it didn't help much.
 
2014-08-06 02:59:56 PM  
Should we weigh helping the Kurds?
 
2014-08-06 03:00:12 PM  
Remember when we had Saddam boxed in and the only controversy was over how man children died due to sanctions? Me neither. Good times, good times
 
2014-08-06 03:01:28 PM  

zerkalo: Remember when we had Saddam boxed in and the only controversy was over how man children died due to sanctions? Me neither. Good times, good times


Where is that guy anyhow? Can he come out of retirement and help?
 
2014-08-06 03:02:20 PM  

zerkalo: Remember when we had Saddam boxed in and the only controversy was over how man children died due to sanctions? Me neither. Good times, good times


I like to remember a simpler time than that...when friends were friends and a handshake could seal a deal worth millions of dollars in chemical weapons contracts.

www2.gwu.edu
 
2014-08-06 03:06:29 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Saddam ruled because he did not care about religion. He saw the need for consolidating power and keeping it. Then he used that collective power to crush any opposition.

Iraq has, from its creation, a european construct, not a natural growth of the population.


I disagree. Saddam was a deeply religious man, he just wanted to be sure he was the boss and didn't want any religious leaders able to hold any sway in government, or make an argument that some part of governmental policy was not in agreement with what God wanted.

It's like he learned from the mistakes of the European monarchies of the Middle Ages that were all beholden to the whims of the Catholic Church. Having your ruling undermined by a Pope a couple of thousand miles away was silly, but it wasn't until Henry VIII that anyone really had the balls to tell the Pope where he could stick it. Saddam never got involved with that, although he was very much outwardly religious and professed his faith in Islam in his public persona.
 
2014-08-06 03:14:13 PM  
I wonder if al-Maliki will become synonymous with Batista?
 
2014-08-06 03:20:31 PM  
This is Iran's problem.  We should be resolved to buy oil from whoever has it, and resort to interference only when they're unwilling to sell.   That's about it.
 
2014-08-06 03:22:01 PM  

AMonkey'sUncle: Should we weigh helping the Kurds?


Strange "editorial" ain't it?   "Things aren't going well for Iraq" would be much shorter.
 
2014-08-06 03:23:47 PM  
The only reason we are in any of this is because of oil. However, this doesn't mean we are totally dependent on them. The reason we are in this is probably because of oil profits. Actually, it is because of oil profits.

Top sources of net crude oil and petroleum product imports:
Canada (28%)
Saudi Arabia (13%)
Mexico (10%)
Venezuela (9%)
Russia (5%)

(The above is from 2012)

A pretty pie:

keithhennessey.files.wordpress.com

We farked up in Iraq and Iran. It may be time to let Iraq do what it was trying to do after World War One.
 
2014-08-06 03:23:51 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: zerkalo: Remember when we had Saddam boxed in and the only controversy was over how man children died due to sanctions? Me neither. Good times, good times

Where is that guy anyhow? Can he come out of retirement and help?


Saddam would have waited for ISIS to take a city, and then gassed the city.

When you only care about your own grip on power, and have no regard for the value of human life, it's amazing how effective you can be at holding a nation together.
 
2014-08-06 03:30:55 PM  

Gonz: HotWingConspiracy: zerkalo: Remember when we had Saddam boxed in and the only controversy was over how man children died due to sanctions? Me neither. Good times, good times

Where is that guy anyhow? Can he come out of retirement and help?

Saddam would have waited for ISIS to take a city, and then gassed the city.

When you only care about your own grip on power, and have no regard for the value of human life, it's amazing how effective you can be at holding a nation together.


There might not be many people left in it when you're done, but you'll certainly own the land.
 
2014-08-06 03:33:21 PM  
I didn't vote for that piece of shiat George W Bush. You assholes did. And now you should send your kids over there to die in order to fix the situation.
 
2014-08-06 03:35:52 PM  

TheNewJesus: I didn't vote for that piece of shiat George W Bush. You assholes did. And now you should send your kids over there to die in order to fix the situation.


I have FARK, DIGG and Reddit to thank for changing my world view from the hellhole of ultraconservative, Christian derp I grew up in from that. I never told many of my family members I didn't vote for Bush in the 2004 election, and it wasn't until a few years later when I could get a word in edgewise with my grandmother, who went off the deep end after her Goldwater conservative husband died in 2002.

I shudder at the fact I used to defend that asshole.
 
2014-08-06 03:37:29 PM  

hardinparamedic: TheNewJesus: I didn't vote for that piece of shiat George W Bush. You assholes did. And now you should send your kids over there to die in order to fix the situation.

I have FARK, DIGG and Reddit to thank for changing my world view from the hellhole of ultraconservative, Christian derp I grew up in from that. I never told many of my family members I didn't vote for Bush in the 2004 election, and it wasn't until a few years later when I could get a word in edgewise with my grandmother, who went off the deep end after her Goldwater conservative husband died in 2002.

I shudder at the fact I used to defend that asshole.


Bush, Goldwater or your grandfather?
 
2014-08-06 03:37:57 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Wait. The Kurds, having been trained and funded by Israel and the US for decades, failed to fight to a win?

You mean criminals and thugs will suck your money teat while mumbling something about shared goals and team victory and dying for a cause then bravely run away with your cash?

Huh. Never could have seen that happening to the agency and our military.

I doubt they were ever told they'd be an invincible fighting force.


I think the exact words were on the order of "a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude"
 
2014-08-06 03:38:46 PM  

ox45tallboy: So a shiite just ordered the Iraqi military to support the Kurds.

Maybe they are finally coming together.

I think that was Saddam Hussein's key to maintaining power - he was brutal, so they all hated him more than they disagreed with one another. He wasn't just their leader, he was their common enemy in the hatred of whom they could identify with one another.

Maybe this whole ISIS thing could lead to more unity after they are defeated, since most Iraqis are used to a secular government and aren't as interested in a theocracy as what most people are led to believe. A three-state solution with division of oil revenues for public infrastructure and schools might be workable. However, at the moment, I think most Iraqis would settle for just about any functioning government.


I am having a hard time understand Why ISIS is not about to get knocked on its ass,   By my count it is currently trying to fight a 4-front war against Syria, Iraq, the Kurds AND Lebanon,  has pissed off Iran enough that they are sending Al-quds fighters into Iraq and Hezbollah militias into Syria, has been disavowed by all the other Syrian rebels and Al-qaeda, and is apparently pissing off several large Sunni tribes in Iraq in the areas it controls


Seems like that's a recipe to get squashed like a bug


also FTA:
ISIS's goal is to create a caliphate straddling Iraq and Syria, governed by a harsh interpretation of Shariah, and, in pursuit of that objective, it has been cracking down brutally on Christians, Yazidis and other minorities.

You really have to feel for the farking Yazidis.   They worship a god, Melek Taus, or Shaytan that every other major world religion in the area  identifies as the devil , so they get persecuted no matter WHO is in power
 
2014-08-06 03:40:25 PM  
In the next six months the light at the end of the tunnel will have turned a corner.
 
2014-08-06 03:43:17 PM  

Smoking GNU: hardinparamedic: TheNewJesus: I didn't vote for that piece of shiat George W Bush. You assholes did. And now you should send your kids over there to die in order to fix the situation.

I have FARK, DIGG and Reddit to thank for changing my world view from the hellhole of ultraconservative, Christian derp I grew up in from that. I never told many of my family members I didn't vote for Bush in the 2004 election, and it wasn't until a few years later when I could get a word in edgewise with my grandmother, who went off the deep end after her Goldwater conservative husband died in 2002.

I shudder at the fact I used to defend that asshole.

Bush, Goldwater or your grandfather?


Bush.

My grandfather spent close to 30 years in the Navy, and had presidential service with Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson administrations. I can't really blame him for being set in his ways as a conservative.
 
2014-08-06 03:44:41 PM  

Magorn: You really have to feel for the farking Yazidis.   They worship a god, Melek Taus, or Shaytan that every other major world religion in the area  identifies as the devil , so they get persecuted no matter WHO is in power


You have to give them credit, they've got staying power for being the target of genocide since their founding in the 12th century.
 
2014-08-06 03:45:13 PM  

TheNewJesus: I didn't vote for that piece of shiat George W Bush. You assholes did. And now you should send your kids over there to die in order to fix the situation.


But what if There is no "fixing it." No amount of bombs, lives or money will produce the desired outcome for the U.S. It's time to cut our losses and walk away. Anything else is just delaying the inevitable (i.e. civil war to decide which group will control which areas)
 
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