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(Politico)   58% of Americans are unpatriotic assholes. Damn hippies   (politico.com) divider line 166
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3967 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Aug 2014 at 4:11 PM (30 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-05 11:27:31 AM  
Justified?

That seems such an odd word to use here for some reason.

Playing the tit for tat justification game backwards for these two groups, Hamas and the IDF, can take a long, long time.

Palestinians need to elect some group that recognizes Israel's right to exist and defend itself and Hamas is not now and never will be that group.

Israel needs to find a new plan beyond "mow the grass" every couple of years.

Until those two things happen the possibility of a real peace with a two state solution will never occur.

Desperate people commit desperate acts. Less desperation equal more chance for peace.

Start there.
 
2014-08-05 11:53:35 AM  
quatchi:
Desperate people commit desperate acts. Less desperation equal more chance for peace.

Start there.


A lot of that desperation is the result of blockades and restrictions put in place by Israel... which is necessary because those jackwagons wont' stop lobbing rockets at them... It's a big circle of suck and fail that feeds itself.  How to break it?  If I had the answer I'd be a very wealthy man.
 
2014-08-05 12:00:56 PM  
They're worse than Hitler, almost worse than Mel Gibson.
 
2014-08-05 12:07:20 PM  

nekom: How to break it?


Aye, there's the rub.
 
2014-08-05 12:11:03 PM  
Both Sides Are Bad

/so support Israel
 
2014-08-05 12:22:09 PM  
Their great grandchildren will still be killing each other, long after I'm gone.
 
2014-08-05 12:41:27 PM  
At least Hamas doesn't hit us up for $8.5 million dollars per day.
 
2014-08-05 12:46:04 PM  
And neither care what we think.
 
2014-08-05 12:55:33 PM  
Israel has faced increasing criticism for its actions in Gaza and the conflict's disproportionate death toll.

Israelis are being criticized because not enough of them are dying in a war started by Hamas?  I've never heard of a country at war being criticized for that.
 
2014-08-05 01:26:48 PM  

quatchi: Palestinians need to elect some group that recognizes Israel's right to exist and defend itself and Hamas is not now and never will be that group.


Haven't you heard? Hamas has sold out and become agents of the Israelis. Salafis will rule Gaza soon enough.
 
2014-08-05 01:29:50 PM  

SkinnyHead: Israel has faced increasing criticism for its actions in Gaza and the conflict's disproportionate death toll.

Israelis are being criticized because not enough of them are dying in a war started by Hamas?  I've never heard of a country at war being criticized for that.


Leave to you to deliberately misinterpret in favor of Israel. That's not predictable at all.
 
2014-08-05 01:48:43 PM  

Somacandra: quatchi: Palestinians need to elect some group that recognizes Israel's right to exist and defend itself and Hamas is not now and never will be that group.

Haven't you heard? Hamas has sold out and become agents of the Israelis. Salafis will rule Gaza soon enough.


*click*

Holy crap! ...or unholy crap, if you'd prefer.

They sound like a Muslim Tea Party waiting in the wings to take over if the Republicans fail.

Wonder when they'll start calling Hamas "Jihadists In Name Onlys" or JINOs for short.
 
2014-08-05 02:03:31 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: SkinnyHead: Israel has faced increasing criticism for its actions in Gaza and the conflict's disproportionate death toll.

Israelis are being criticized because not enough of them are dying in a war started by Hamas?  I've never heard of a country at war being criticized for that.

Leave to you to deliberately misinterpret in favor of Israel. That's not predictable at all.


How else would you interpret it, Cameron?  What's your pro-Hamas interpretation?
 
2014-08-05 02:06:15 PM  
42% of Americans still have no clue why the Arab world doesn't like us.
 
2014-08-05 02:08:42 PM  
Sad that both sides considers the lives on the other side as cheap.
 
2014-08-05 02:08:50 PM  

edmo: 42% of Americans still have no clue why the Arab world doesn't like us.


They hate us for our freedom.
 
2014-08-05 02:10:02 PM  

skinink: Sad that both sides considers the lives on the other side as cheap.


It's easy when you don't think of your enemy as human.
 
2014-08-05 02:29:55 PM  

skinink: Sad that both sides considers the lives on the other side as cheap.


Hamas considers their own lives cheap as well.  If they didn't, they'd knock it off with the rockets.  Whether you think it's right or wrong, they know damned well that it's going to provoke a major Israeli response and there's going to be dead Palestinians at the end of the day.
 
2014-08-05 03:25:33 PM  

Mugato: At least Hamas doesn't hit us up for $8.5 million dollars per day.


true, we only give about a million a day to the PA ...
thanks for playing
 
2014-08-05 03:28:24 PM  

edmo: 42% of Americans still have no clue why the Arab world doesn't like us.


muslims hate all christians?
muslims hate everyone that doesnt side with muslims?

Have you NOTICED that the same people vilifying israel are dead quite about ISIS?
OH right ... it is ok for muslims to kill muslims.

Seriously.
 
2014-08-05 03:41:51 PM  
Have we reached the point where Israel is our government?
 
2014-08-05 04:14:01 PM  

nekom: It's a big circle of suck and fail


is it epic suck and fail?
 
2014-08-05 04:16:11 PM  

sprawl15: nekom: It's a big circle of suck and fail

is it epic suck and fail?


lol for the win
 
2014-08-05 04:16:58 PM  
Wait, Americans are unpatriotic if we don't support Israel?
 
2014-08-05 04:17:01 PM  

SkinnyHead: Israel has faced increasing criticism for its actions in Gaza and the conflict's disproportionate death toll.

Israelis are being criticized because not enough of them are dying in a war started by Hamas?  I've never heard of a country at war being criticized for that.


Maybe, just maybe, some people think that killing children in the name of self-defense is morally objectionable. Perhaps if they were fetuses you'd feel some semblance of compassion. Oh hell, who are we kidding with that one? They're just as brown in the womb as they are laying dead in a destroyed building, after all.
 
2014-08-05 04:17:25 PM  

quatchi: Somacandra: quatchi: Palestinians need to elect some group that recognizes Israel's right to exist and defend itself and Hamas is not now and never will be that group.

Haven't you heard? Hamas has sold out and become agents of the Israelis. Salafis will rule Gaza soon enough.

*click*

Holy crap! ...or unholy crap, if you'd prefer.

They sound like a Muslim Tea Party waiting in the wings to take over if the Republicans fail.

Wonder when they'll start calling Hamas "Jihadists In Name Onlys" or JINOs for short.


Hopefully they don't become Very Angry JINO's...
 
2014-08-05 04:18:41 PM  
38% of those polled think Israel is not justified in their actions.

That's surprising and terrible news for the Israel lobby.  That means Americans are actually paying attention, and there's a break in the lockstep pro-Israel thinking in this country, something their radical right-wing government has banked on for years.
 
2014-08-05 04:21:28 PM  
Blabla, don't really give a shiat about the region in general. But kind of irritated we piss away so much money on what is essentially a colonial apartheid nation that only exists because of British and U.S. guilt over not winning ww2 fast enough.

Is it any wonder that the natives you shoved into tiny squalid slums are restless?
 
2014-08-05 04:23:50 PM  

thanksagainandagain: Maybe, just maybe, some people think that killing children in the name of self-defense is morally objectionable. Perhaps if they were fetuses you'd feel some semblance of compassion. Oh hell, who are we kidding with that one? They're just as brown in the womb as they are laying dead in a destroyed building, after all.


It would be awesome if Hamas wouldn't randomly fire their rockets from positions next to civilians. But what could end this thing instantly is if they didn't fire them at all.

But they really do like shooting those things off. Which is fine, I suppose. Just carefully read the instructions: light fuse and aim away from face Israel.
 
2014-08-05 04:25:53 PM  
They're all anti-Semites.
 
2014-08-05 04:29:08 PM  
Somewhere, an eagle is crying.
 
2014-08-05 04:29:08 PM  

quatchi: Palestinians need to elect some group that recognizes Israel's right to exist and defend itself and Hamas is not now and never will be that group.


This goes on much longer, Palestine's not really going to be in much of a position to elect anyone to anything.
 
2014-08-05 04:29:46 PM  
Could we lock Likud, Hamas and ISIS in a stadium, all armed with machetes, and let them sort each other out?
 
2014-08-05 04:29:58 PM  

Destructor: thanksagainandagain: Maybe, just maybe, some people think that killing children in the name of self-defense is morally objectionable. Perhaps if they were fetuses you'd feel some semblance of compassion. Oh hell, who are we kidding with that one? They're just as brown in the womb as they are laying dead in a destroyed building, after all.

It would be awesome if Hamas wouldn't randomly fire their rockets from positions next to civilians. But what could end this thing instantly is if they didn't fire them at all.

But they really do like shooting those things off. Which is fine, I suppose. Just carefully read the instructions: light fuse and aim away from face Israel.


I'm sure they'd welcome you to show where in one of the most densely packed areas of the world you could fire a rocket without civilians around.

And I'm sure you could explain how not firing rockets would have any impact on the privation Israel is forcing upon them, much less the razing of buildings and other collective terror enacted after three Israelis were kidnapped, sub anything having to do with Gaza as a whole.
 
2014-08-05 04:30:20 PM  
The secret to Zionism's success has been conflating any and all criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism (even though the Palestinians are also Semitic people), thereby making their critics too apprehensive to speak out.

thedailyblog.co.nz
 
2014-08-05 04:30:25 PM  
If you truly want peace in the Middle East, you have to unite Muslim and Jew. Slaughtering Christians is something both groups can get behind. Together.
 
2014-08-05 04:31:22 PM  
Is Israel justified in responding to rocket attacks? Of course.

Is Israel justified in killing hundreds in response? No.

Is Israel justified in taking down the only electrical source for a city of tens of thousands of people? No.

Is Israel justified in aggressive language its used? No.

Is Hamas justified in hiding behind schools? Absolutely not.


Both sides are wrong. Israel is wrong the way that a hammer is wrong for thinking everything is a nail. Hamas is wrong because it's wrong to shoot rockets into neighboring countries.
 
2014-08-05 04:31:29 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: 38% of those polled think Israel is not justified in their actions.

That's surprising and terrible news for the Israel lobby.  That means Americans are actually paying attention, and there's a break in the lockstep pro-Israel thinking in this country, something their radical right-wing government has banked on for years.


It's a pretty vague poll, really.  I mean, I think Israel goes over the top but on the other hand no nation would sit idly by while they were bombarded with rockets.  I'd certainly expect my own government to do something about it if that were the situation here.  Do does that mean *I* think Israel is justified?   Kinda sorta maybe, but on the other hand not so much.  This is SO not a black and white issue.
 
2014-08-05 04:31:47 PM  

nekom: quatchi:
Desperate people commit desperate acts. Less desperation equal more chance for peace.

Start there.

A lot of that desperation is the result of blockades and restrictions put in place by Israel... which is necessary because those jackwagons wont' stop lobbing rockets at them... It's a big circle of suck and fail that feeds itself.  How to break it?  If I had the answer I'd be a very wealthy man.


The only way to break the cycle is for one side to wipe the other out, or for one side to give up. Neither side wants to be wiped out or give up.
 
2014-08-05 04:32:34 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: 38% of those polled think Israel is not justified in their actions.

That's surprising and terrible news for the Israel lobby.  That means Americans are actually paying attention, and there's a break in the lockstep pro-Israel thinking in this country, something their radical right-wing government has banked on for years.


Yeah. It's a very anti-Hamas response, so they're still the more popular of the two, but the sentiment from the numbers appears to be basically: 'Now look, we're not saying that Hamas is a good bunch of people, they're not, we agree on that, but for fark's sake, you're not blameless in this mess, so stop acting like you are and stop holding up BUT THEY KILL CHILDREN as an excuse to do whatever the hell you want because we're really getting sick of it'.
 
2014-08-05 04:33:42 PM  

nekom: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: 38% of those polled think Israel is not justified in their actions.

That's surprising and terrible news for the Israel lobby.  That means Americans are actually paying attention, and there's a break in the lockstep pro-Israel thinking in this country, something their radical right-wing government has banked on for years.

It's a pretty vague poll, really.  I mean, I think Israel goes over the top but on the other hand no nation would sit idly by while they were bombarded with rockets.  I'd certainly expect my own government to do something about it if that were the situation here.  Do does that mean *I* think Israel is justified?   Kinda sorta maybe, but on the other hand not so much.  This is SO not a black and white issue.


My point is that a really large portion of Americans are seeing nuance in the situation and aren't automatically viewing Israel's side as automatically peerless.

Counterpoint to the rest, I know of no people who would stand by getting rammed into a virtual prison without attacking back in some way.
 
2014-08-05 04:35:10 PM  

BorgiaGinz: Could we lock Likud, Hamas and ISIS in a stadium, all armed with machetes, and let them sort each other out?


They don't care about the stadium.  They care about their historic land.
 
2014-08-05 04:37:04 PM  

thanksagainandagain: SkinnyHead: Israel has faced increasing criticism for its actions in Gaza and the conflict's disproportionate death toll.

Israelis are being criticized because not enough of them are dying in a war started by Hamas?  I've never heard of a country at war being criticized for that.

Maybe, just maybe, some people think that killing children in the name of self-defense is morally objectionable. Perhaps if they were fetuses you'd feel some semblance of compassion. Oh hell, who are we kidding with that one? They're just as brown in the womb as they are laying dead in a destroyed building, after all.


Once Hamas starts launching rockets from civilian areas at civilian targets, Israel has lost the ability to prevent civilian casualties, including children. They can either do nothing as rockets kill civilians*, or they can try to destroy the launchers, resulting in civilian deaths.

*If the launchers are allowed to operate with impunity, the rockets missed by the defense systems (even assuming the Iron Dome never ran short of counter-missles) will start killing more and more civilians.
 
2014-08-05 04:37:16 PM  
Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste:
My point is that a really large portion of Americans are seeing nuance in the situation and aren't automatically viewing Israel's side as automatically peerless.

Counterpoint to the rest, I know of no people who would stand by getting rammed into a virtual prison without attacking back in some way.


I don't disagree on either point.  The first point is probably thanks to the internet.  It's not just "Oh x amount of people on the other side of the world got killed by other people, so sad", there are graphic photos.  When you put faces to those numbers, I think empathy intensifies.

The second point, yeah it's NOT hard to see why the Palestinians are pissed.  It's also not hard to see why Israel feels the need to stop the rocket attacks even if some civilians have to die.  In short, the whole thing just utterly farking sucks.
 
2014-08-05 04:37:21 PM  
Too bad no one gives a shiat what the average American thinks anymore. Now if the Koch brothers decided they no longer wanted to support Israel, then our ambassador would probably march into the UN the next day draped in a Palestinian flag, while Congress went into emergency session to demand a refund for all the funding we've given Israel.
 
2014-08-05 04:40:00 PM  

draypresct: thanksagainandagain: SkinnyHead: Israel has faced increasing criticism for its actions in Gaza and the conflict's disproportionate death toll.

Israelis are being criticized because not enough of them are dying in a war started by Hamas?  I've never heard of a country at war being criticized for that.

Maybe, just maybe, some people think that killing children in the name of self-defense is morally objectionable. Perhaps if they were fetuses you'd feel some semblance of compassion. Oh hell, who are we kidding with that one? They're just as brown in the womb as they are laying dead in a destroyed building, after all.

Once Hamas starts launching rockets from civilian areas at civilian targets, Israel has lost the ability to prevent civilian casualties, including children. They can either do nothing as rockets kill civilians*, or they can try to destroy the launchers, resulting in civilian deaths.

*If the launchers are allowed to operate with impunity, the rockets missed by the defense systems (even assuming the Iron Dome never ran short of counter-missles) will start killing more and more civilians.


If only there was a way to take out rocket launchers without destroying whole neighborhoods.
 
2014-08-05 04:42:59 PM  

namatad: edmo: 42% of Americans still have no clue why the Arab world doesn't like us.

muslims hate all christians?
muslims hate everyone that doesnt side with muslims?

Have you NOTICED that the same people vilifying israel are dead quite about ISIS?
OH right ... it is ok for muslims to kill muslims.

Seriously.


Did we have some threads on ISIS that got no posts, or where everyone was all "Well, ISIS is actually a bunch of great guys...you just don't know them!" or something? I seem to have missed those...
 
2014-08-05 04:43:13 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: 38% of those polled think Israel is not justified in their actions.

That's surprising and terrible news for the Israel lobby.  That means Americans are actually paying attention, and there's a break in the lockstep pro-Israel thinking in this country, something their radical right-wing government has banked on for years.


Bulk of support is driven by the old, white crowd. The younger generations identify less with the notion of acceptable ethnic cleansing.
 
2014-08-05 04:43:21 PM  
I've served this country honorably.
But it can kiss my ass.
 
2014-08-05 04:44:27 PM  

quatchi: Justified?

That seems such an odd word to use here for some reason.

Playing the tit for tat justification game backwards for these two groups, Hamas and the IDF, can take a long, long time.

Palestinians need to elect some group that recognizes Israel's right to exist and defend itself and Hamas is not now and never will be that group.

Israel needs to find a new plan beyond "mow the grass" every couple of years.

Until those two things happen the possibility of a real peace with a two state solution will never occur.

Desperate people commit desperate acts. Less desperation equal more chance for peace.

Start there.


The only reason Hamas has power is because Palestinians in Gaza feel like they need someone to stand up to Israel. Heavy-handed responses like this, and allowing Israel to do whatever it damn well pleases (up to and including war crimes), only strengthens that mindset.

This conflict will never end without outside influence, because neither Hamas nor the Israeli government has any interest in stopping it. A permanent enemy is, after all, a damn good way for power-hungry assholes to keep that power.
 
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