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(LBC 97.3)   British officials plan to slap diesel vehicles with £20 spot fines if vehicles are left idling for as little as one minute to reduce pollution. Good thing heavy diesels are designed to be turned off and on dozens of times a day   (lbc.co.uk) divider line 47
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897 clicks; posted to Business » on 04 Aug 2014 at 12:21 PM (8 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-04 11:27:17 AM
Islington council advises drivers to switch off idling vehicles at traffic lights, school drop off zones, and while loading and unloading their vehicles.


All of these suggestions are idiotic, but the part I bolded is IMHO the worst.
 
2014-08-04 12:27:46 PM
just a tad bit ridiculous. turning it off at lights is usually going to use more fuel anyways when you turn the engine over again.
 
2014-08-04 12:34:13 PM
"The introduction of the new diesel charge follows Mayor Boris Johnson's proposed plans to charge drivers an additional £10 when driving into London."

What!? That's on top of the Congestion Charge? It'll be 19 quid (that's $32, for the Yanks reading) to drive into Central London?
 
2014-08-04 12:39:10 PM
Any bet they're going to redo all the lights so you go from red light to red light.  For $afety rea$on$ of cour$e
 
2014-08-04 12:40:31 PM
Time for the Brits to embrace rolling coal
/that'll show them
 
2014-08-04 12:44:24 PM
I always shut my diesel pickup off at the drive-thru, but only because I can't hear the order-taker otherwise.
 
2014-08-04 12:46:27 PM
Does Edmonton still have the 'shut your car off at red lights' rule?

I just love the morons that idle their cars when dropping their kids off for daycare.  Lets leave a $50,000 SUV idling while I spend 5 minutes dropping off my crotch fruit.
 
2014-08-04 01:15:56 PM
If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.
 
2014-08-04 01:24:25 PM

TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.


Willing to bet all hybrids can (and do) shut down the combustion engine assuming there is sufficient battery charge.  I know first hand that the Toyota Prius does.
 
2014-08-04 01:30:06 PM

Im_Gumby: TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.

Willing to bet all hybrids can (and do) shut down the combustion engine assuming there is sufficient battery charge.  I know first hand that the Toyota Prius does.


My CRZ shuts off at a stop. Wasn't sure how well it was gonna work wth a manual transformer, but no worries. Now cars that don't auto-stop seem weird to me.

/love it when stealth mode engages... coasting thru parking lots with the engine off.
 
2014-08-04 01:36:01 PM
Well I see the price of starters, injection pumps, pickup pumps and fuel filters is about to skyrocket over there. Diesels are designed to idle or run at any RPM below red-line for long periods of time. I wonder how that will effect the heavy trucks (or lorries as they call them) concerning air pressure. Constantly starting and stopping a diesel over 11 litres in displacement is a good way to chew up an air compressor.
 
2014-08-04 01:48:57 PM
The law says that is an offence to idle your engine unnecessarily when stationary. If you fail to turn your engine off after being asked to do so by an authorised officer you can be issued with a fixed penalty notice.. This is enforced under the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) (England) Regulations 2002.

The law covers all vehicles on public roads including buses, taxis and private cars. However it does NOT apply to vehicles moving slowly due to road works or congestion; vehicles stopped at traffic lights; vehicles under test or repair; or defrosting a windscreen. The fixed penalty notice is issued to the driver of the vehicle.


Ummm... outrage?
 
2014-08-04 01:53:01 PM
Aren't UPS trucks diesel?  Don't they shut off constantly as well?  I drove a golf cart in Catalina that was diesel and did the on/off thing.
 
2014-08-04 01:54:13 PM

skozlaw: If you fail to turn your engine off after being asked to do so by an authorised officer you can be issued with a fixed penalty notice


Therefore when leaving your vehicle parked make sure to get out of sight of it quickly, so you can't be ordered to turn it off.
 
2014-08-04 02:07:23 PM

TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money..


Until you have to take it to the garage for a new starter motor, because NEWS FLASH: those cars that do auto start stop, specifically have heavy duty starter motors for this very reason (or in the case of the CRZ, it uses the IMA as a starter motor)
 
2014-08-04 02:19:53 PM
LOL! NYC passed a law that any vehicle idling for more than 3 minutes was subject to a fine. When some editorial laughed at the law and the inevitable inability to enforce it, some poor dumb bureaucrat wrote a letter to the Times saying the law had teeth.

To which the general response was, "Oh, wait, you're serious. Let me laugh harder!"
 
2014-08-04 02:27:36 PM

WelldeadLink: skozlaw: If you fail to turn your engine off after being asked to do so by an authorised officer you can be issued with a fixed penalty notice

Therefore when leaving your vehicle parked make sure to get out of sight of it quickly, so you can't be ordered to turn it off.


This is the UK, if they have your plate number they know your cell number, your shoe size, and the pub you hang out at.
 
2014-08-04 02:28:06 PM

AMonkey'sUncle: NYC passed a law that any vehicle idling for more than 3 minutes was subject to a fine.


Did they explicitly exempt "official" vehicles, or do they do that through selective enforcement?
 
2014-08-04 02:29:13 PM

Psylence: Im_Gumby: TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.

Willing to bet all hybrids can (and do) shut down the combustion engine assuming there is sufficient battery charge.  I know first hand that the Toyota Prius does.

My CRZ shuts off at a stop. Wasn't sure how well it was gonna work wth a manual transformer, but no worries. Now cars that don't auto-stop seem weird to me.

/love it when stealth mode engages... coasting thru parking lots with the engine off.



Ya perfect for drive-by's.
 
2014-08-04 02:31:11 PM

Cyclonic Cooking Action: Aren't UPS trucks diesel?  Don't they shut off constantly as well?  I drove a golf cart in Catalina that was diesel and did the on/off thing.


They are and do here.
 
2014-08-04 02:44:44 PM

Psylence: Im_Gumby: TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.

Willing to bet all hybrids can (and do) shut down the combustion engine assuming there is sufficient battery charge.  I know first hand that the Toyota Prius does.

My CRZ shuts off at a stop. Wasn't sure how well it was gonna work wth a manual transformer, but no worries. Now cars that don't auto-stop seem weird to me.

/love it when stealth mode engages... coasting thru parking lots with the engine off.


http://youtu.be/R8mjIcTqLTk
 
2014-08-04 03:17:10 PM

TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.


There was a (Honda I think) V-6 that could become a four cylinder when the extra power wasn't needed.  Some sort of fancy fuel management system.  It would be a really useful thing in some large trucks and performace cars because you don't need 300hp going down the block to get milk, but you might just want that when towing or trying to get onto a freeway.
 
2014-08-04 03:24:39 PM

Gary-L: Psylence: Im_Gumby: TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.

Willing to bet all hybrids can (and do) shut down the combustion engine assuming there is sufficient battery charge.  I know first hand that the Toyota Prius does.

My CRZ shuts off at a stop. Wasn't sure how well it was gonna work wth a manual transformer, but no worries. Now cars that don't auto-stop seem weird to me.

/love it when stealth mode engages... coasting thru parking lots with the engine off.

http://youtu.be/R8mjIcTqLTk


HAha! farkin' sweet!
 
2014-08-04 03:26:49 PM

untaken_name: AMonkey'sUncle: NYC passed a law that any vehicle idling for more than 3 minutes was subject to a fine.

Did they explicitly exempt "official" vehicles, or do they do that through selective enforcement?


You know, they never said in the newspaper, but i'm sure official vehicles were exempted. Funny thing was you could idle longer than that at some streetlights.
 
2014-08-04 03:49:12 PM

DrunkWithImpotence: TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.

There was a (Honda I think) V-6 that could become a four cylinder when the extra power wasn't needed.  Some sort of fancy fuel management system.  It would be a really useful thing in some large trucks and performace cars because you don't need 300hp going down the block to get milk, but you might just want that when towing or trying to get onto a freeway.


That would be the Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) engine.  I have one in my 2010 Accord.
 
2014-08-04 04:30:26 PM
There's a whole lot of diesel hate going on at the moment. People were encouraged to buy diesels, as they're more efficient, and emit less CO2 and fewer VOCs than petrol engines.

And now, the pendulum's swung the other way. The government, having encouraged diesel use, now realises that NOx is bad, too.

Diesel trucks have been using Adblue/DEF for a while, I'm pretty sure that new diesel cars have Adblue reservoirs too. I'm not sure how useful that is in terms of emissions, as, according to wiki, Adblue turns some of the emissions into CO2.

fark, I don't know who to listen to regarding environmental benefits. I'm pretty sure that running my motor on 50:50 veg oil:petrodiesel is pretty environmentally sound, though.

And might have something to do with the governmental diesel hate?
 
2014-08-04 05:16:38 PM

suburbanguy: DrunkWithImpotence: TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.

There was a (Honda I think) V-6 that could become a four cylinder when the extra power wasn't needed.  Some sort of fancy fuel management system.  It would be a really useful thing in some large trucks and performace cars because you don't need 300hp going down the block to get milk, but you might just want that when towing or trying to get onto a freeway.

That would be the Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) engine.  I have one in my 2010 Accord.


Dayum that looks like a cool piece of engineering.
 
2014-08-04 05:30:40 PM
There's also the ECO Assist system.   It's basically a Pavlovian attempt to train people to drive more economically.  This light comes on the dash when you're achieving maximum mileage.  It used to drive me bonkers.  Now I've just learned to ignore it.  (The ECO light has a slightly larger effect on me, than on Jeremy Clarkson.)   There's also a newer system that has some more features I think, but I'm sure exactly how they work.

img.fark.net
 
2014-08-04 05:30:44 PM

TheGreatGazoo: Does Edmonton still have the 'shut your car off at red lights' rule?

I just love the morons that idle their cars when dropping their kids off for daycare.  Lets leave a $50,000 SUV idling while I spend 5 minutes dropping off my crotch fruit.


If I ever need to steal a car, I am heading to a daycare at 7:30am.
 
2014-08-04 06:20:15 PM

quellic: Well I see the price of starters, injection pumps, pickup pumps and fuel filters is about to skyrocket over there. Diesels are designed to idle or run at any RPM below red-line for long periods of time. I wonder how that will effect the heavy trucks (or lorries as they call them) concerning air pressure. Constantly starting and stopping a diesel over 11 litres in displacement is a good way to chew up an air compressor.


Perhaps for the very largest trucks, but many engines in Class 2-6 vehicles don't deal with long idle periods well. I have a Class 2 with a diesel engine (very common for delivery vans) and the manual warns against idling for more than a few minutes at a time.
 
2014-08-04 06:29:46 PM
Diesel exhaust is toxic.

It's also about time stop-start tech gets more widely used in things like commercial vehicles. It makes sense that we would attempt to transition to zero-emissions or extremely low emission vehicles over time, and commercial applications are one of the last holdouts. It's been proven that exposure to these fumes has a negative effect on health, with people in the lower income brackets and children being most affected (think about who uses buses, which tend to gas the people at the bus stops).

I realize that we aren't going to get perfect, but we should try for better than what we have now. Exhaust is toxic, and should be treated as such and minimized.

Seriously, shiat's toxic. We're supposed to consider it a-ok when it's being pumped into the air? I don't think so.
 
2014-08-04 07:03:19 PM
Yay! Liberals are saving us all from Global Warming!
 
2014-08-04 07:17:36 PM

DrunkWithImpotence: Dayum that looks like a cool piece of engineering.


imgc.allpostersimages.com
 
2014-08-04 08:05:45 PM

DrunkWithImpotence: suburbanguy: DrunkWithImpotence: TNel: If you have a car then turning it off will save you money since you are not going to waste any "extra" fuel by turning on and off.  I think there is a model car that does it automatically or turns off cylinders can't remember which.

Diesel big rig?  Not so much.

There was a (Honda I think) V-6 that could become a four cylinder when the extra power wasn't needed.  Some sort of fancy fuel management system.  It would be a really useful thing in some large trucks and performace cars because you don't need 300hp going down the block to get milk, but you might just want that when towing or trying to get onto a freeway.

That would be the Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) engine.  I have one in my 2010 Accord.

Dayum that looks like a cool piece of engineering.


Cadillac tried that in 1981.  P.O.S.
 
2014-08-04 08:15:01 PM

kaduh: Cadillac tried that in 1981. P.O.S.


My dad bought one of those. There aren't many cars you can say were the absolute worst of their decades, with no redeeming features whatsover, but that monstrosity was one of them. "Hey, let's slap a (bad) diesel engine into an existing car, equip it with cylinder management tech that nobody understands and nobody can work on and thank Christ we're not one of the customers who buys this pile of hot garbage."
 
2014-08-04 08:27:16 PM

Snowrise: kaduh: Cadillac tried that in 1981. P.O.S.

My dad bought one of those. There aren't many cars you can say were the absolute worst of their decades, with no redeeming features whatsover, but that monstrosity was one of them. "Hey, let's slap a (bad) diesel engine into an existing car, equip it with cylinder management tech that nobody understands and nobody can work on and thank Christ we're not one of the customers who buys this pile of hot garbage."


Could be worse, I know some poor bastard who bought one of these.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/vintage-speed/top-automoti ve -engineering-failures-oldsmobile-diesels
 
2014-08-04 09:10:36 PM

TheGreatGazoo: Does Edmonton still have the 'shut your car off at red lights' rule?

I just love the morons that idle their cars when dropping their kids off for daycare.  Lets leave a $50,000 SUV idling while I spend 5 minutes dropping off my crotch fruit.


You do that in Atlanta, there will be an empty space waiting for you when you return.
 
2014-08-04 10:03:22 PM

untaken_name: AMonkey'sUncle: NYC passed a law that any vehicle idling for more than 3 minutes was subject to a fine.

Did they explicitly exempt "official" vehicles, or do they do that through selective enforcement?


I think that by raising that question you are also clever enough to work out the answer.
 
2014-08-04 10:04:19 PM

adamatari: Diesel exhaust is toxic.

It's also about time stop-start tech gets more widely used in things like commercial vehicles. It makes sense that we would attempt to transition to zero-emissions or extremely low emission vehicles over time, and commercial applications are one of the last holdouts. It's been proven that exposure to these fumes has a negative effect on health, with people in the lower income brackets and children being most affected (think about who uses buses, which tend to gas the people at the bus stops).

I realize that we aren't going to get perfect, but we should try for better than what we have now. Exhaust is toxic, and should be treated as such and minimized.

Seriously, shiat's toxic. We're supposed to consider it a-ok when it's being pumped into the air? I don't think so.


But it's made from recycled restaurant waste!
 
2014-08-04 11:35:28 PM

Snowrise: kaduh: Cadillac tried that in 1981. P.O.S.

My dad bought one of those. There aren't many cars you can say were the absolute worst of their decades, with no redeeming features whatsover, but that monstrosity was one of them. "Hey, let's slap a (bad) diesel engine into an existing car, equip it with cylinder management tech that nobody understands and nobody can work on and thank Christ we're not one of the customers who buys this pile of hot garbage."

Jeebus. I rember that POS. I was a AAA tow driver at the time , was on first name baisis with the owners. not really much you could do out in the field..lotsa tows. And dont get me started on the dual batt. set up..Now this was in san diego, wtf? the glow pluogs had to work in 50/40 deg weather??????
 
2014-08-05 01:14:38 AM

Psylence: /love it when stealth mode engages... coasting thru parking lots with the engine off.


Don't the sleigh bells that they make you put on it for the blind get annoying, though?
 
2014-08-05 02:23:24 AM
This seems more as a money grab disguised as environmental protection than actual protection. Just another way to get a few bucks (or quid in this case) from trucking/delivery companies and tour buses.
 
2014-08-05 05:25:15 AM

mt.madman: Snowrise: kaduh: Cadillac tried that in 1981. P.O.S.

My dad bought one of those. There aren't many cars you can say were the absolute worst of their decades, with no redeeming features whatsover, but that monstrosity was one of them. "Hey, let's slap a (bad) diesel engine into an existing car, equip it with cylinder management tech that nobody understands and nobody can work on and thank Christ we're not one of the customers who buys this pile of hot garbage."
Jeebus. I rember that POS. I was a AAA tow driver at the time , was on first name baisis with the owners. not really much you could do out in the field..lotsa tows. And dont get me started on the dual batt. set up..Now this was in san diego, wtf? the glow pluogs had to work in 50/40 deg weather??????


Glow plugs needing to run in that temperature range is not surprising, especially in older lower compression diesels.
 
2014-08-05 06:13:23 AM

DrunkWithImpotence: Snowrise: kaduh: Cadillac tried that in 1981. P.O.S.

My dad bought one of those. There aren't many cars you can say were the absolute worst of their decades, with no redeeming features whatsover, but that monstrosity was one of them. "Hey, let's slap a (bad) diesel engine into an existing car, equip it with cylinder management tech that nobody understands and nobody can work on and thank Christ we're not one of the customers who buys this pile of hot garbage."

Could be worse, I know some poor bastard who bought one of these.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/vintage-speed/top-automoti ve -engineering-failures-oldsmobile-diesels


Yea, good old GM. Bastards. The 80's Caddies with their early fuel injection system that would routinely go up in flames is right up there as well.

/still pissed the gov't bailed them out
//and their kid rock truck commercial that gets played every 5 minutes is making me stabby
///slashies!
 
2014-08-05 09:05:03 AM

iron de havilland: There's a whole lot of diesel hate going on at the moment. People were encouraged to buy diesels, as they're more efficient, and emit less CO2 and fewer VOCs than petrol engines.

And now, the pendulum's swung the other way. The government, having encouraged diesel use, now realises that NOx is bad, too.

Diesel trucks have been using Adblue/DEF for a while, I'm pretty sure that new diesel cars have Adblue reservoirs too. I'm not sure how useful that is in terms of emissions, as, according to wiki, Adblue turns some of the emissions into CO2.

fark, I don't know who to listen to regarding environmental benefits. I'm pretty sure that running my motor on 50:50 veg oil:petrodiesel is pretty environmentally sound, though.

And might have something to do with the governmental diesel hate?


Modern auto diesels don't use Adblue, they've all pretty much switched to a DPF (diesel particulate filter) built into the exhaust system which traps exhaust soot.  That's coupled with a regeneration cycle to burn off the soot after a number of engine runs, in my TDI the regen cycle comes on every dozen runs or so.  The bad thing is that when the DPF eventually clogs up replacing it is pretty expensive, or you can just remove it and get a power bump after reflashing the engine.  FWIW VW does not recommend extended idling in the TDIs, they recommend turning it off.
 
2014-08-05 12:07:05 PM

suburbanguy: There's also the ECO Assist system.   It's basically a Pavlovian attempt to train people to drive more economically.  This light comes on the dash when you're achieving maximum mileage.  It used to drive me bonkers.  Now I've just learned to ignore it.  (The ECO light has a slightly larger effect on me, than on Jeremy Clarkson.)   There's also a newer system that has some more features I think, but I'm sure exactly how they work.


img.fark.net

Looks to me like you just have to spin her up to 8,500 RPM to hit ECO.
 
2014-08-05 09:40:03 PM
We should just start fitting undersized radiators again like we did in the 80s for cost saving reasons.

Then you won't be able to idle the car without it overheating.
 
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