If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Pocket Lint)   New "EmDrive" propulsion device results have been independently verified. Earth to Mars in a matter of weeks instead of months. No word yet on Hyper-drives, Warp-drives, FTL Drives or Infinite Improbability Drives   (pocket-lint.com) divider line 113
    More: Cool  
•       •       •

4792 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Aug 2014 at 6:17 PM (6 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



113 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-08-01 02:34:41 PM
Smells fishy to me.

If it were true, then the effect would have been noticeable with pretty much every interplanetary spacecraft that uses microwaves to communicate with Earth (ie., *ALL* of them).
 
2014-08-01 02:40:02 PM
call me when NASA invents a ship that travels at the speed of plot.
 
2014-08-01 02:54:58 PM

serial_crusher: call me when NASA invents a ship that travels at the speed of plot.


How about at the speed of putz:

www.tombsofkobol.com
 
2014-08-01 03:00:17 PM

dittybopper: Smells fishy to me.

If it were true, then the effect would have been noticeable with pretty much every interplanetary spacecraft that uses microwaves to communicate with Earth (ie., *ALL* of them).


... if each one surrounded its microwave transmitter with a resonant cavity, which they don't. It's not just "I'm blasting out EM" but "I'm resonating".

But that said, from the Wired article:
The Nasa team... spent six days setting up test equipment followed by two days of experiments with various configurations. These tests included using a "null drive" similar to the live version but modified so it would not work, and using a device which would produce the same load on the apparatus to establish whether the effect might be produced by some effect unrelated to the actual drive. They also turned the drive around the other way to check whether that had any effect.

But, you go to the paper, and:
Thrust was observed on both test articles, even though one of the test articles was designed with the expectation that it would not produce thrust. Specifically, one test article contained internal physical modifications that were designed to produce thrust, while the other did not (with the latter being referred to as the "null" test article).

That seems to imply something fishy going on.
 
2014-08-01 03:00:41 PM
So since this company is an expert at using microwaves.......

img.fark.net
 
2014-08-01 03:20:29 PM
Wow, sweet.
 
2014-08-01 03:26:10 PM

Theaetetus: dittybopper: Smells fishy to me.


That seems to imply something fishy going on.


It implies that the modification didn't matter. The lack of a null-model means their measurement could be wrong, which at these amounts and given an unknown force seems the most logical assumption.

There is nothing to get exciting about until more research is done.
 
2014-08-01 03:39:12 PM
I would love for this to be true, but I am filing it away with that same experiment a couple years ago where it looked like faster-than-light communication might be possible right up until it was determined that a loose cable had given a false positive.
 
2014-08-01 03:45:46 PM
Earth to Mars in a matter of weeks instead of months.

With 720mN of thrust?

Earth to Mars in a matter of Years instead of Months.
 
2014-08-01 03:46:16 PM

Theaetetus: ... if each one surrounded its microwave transmitter with a resonant cavity, which they don't. It's not just "I'm blasting out EM" but "I'm resonating".


Well, generally the higher-powered microwaves *ARE* generated by a resonant cavity.

I just find it implausible that we've been dicking around with microwave devices that use resonant cavities like cavity magnetrons and traveling wave tubes for over 70 years now, and we're just noticing some effect.
 
2014-08-01 03:49:07 PM

haemaker: Earth to Mars in a matter of weeks instead of months.

With 720mN of thrust?

Earth to Mars in a matter of Years instead of Months.


We could get there in a matter of weeks if we wanted to.  Just build a spacecraft with a big-ass plate and throw nuclear bombs out the back.

No, really.
 
2014-08-01 03:55:57 PM

dittybopper: haemaker: Earth to Mars in a matter of weeks instead of months.

With 720mN of thrust?

Earth to Mars in a matter of Years instead of Months.

We could get there in a matter of weeks if we wanted to.  Just build a spacecraft with a big-ass plate and throw nuclear bombs out the back.

No, really.


Orion rocks


and photo drive is real.
what this article is describing is bullshiat and will never, ever be used.
 
2014-08-01 04:00:22 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive

The device uses a magnetron producing microwaves directed inside a specially shaped, fully enclosed tapering high Q resonant cavity whose area is greater at one end, upon which radiation pressure would act differently due to a relativistic effect caused by the action of group velocity in different frames of reference. The inventor claims that the device generates a thrust even though no detectable energy leaves the device.

so thrust without any energy leaving the device
a reactionless drive

YAWN

/Next they will argue that they can run it without power, forever!! Perpetual Motion!!!
 
2014-08-01 04:06:39 PM

dittybopper: Theaetetus: ... if each one surrounded its microwave transmitter with a resonant cavity, which they don't. It's not just "I'm blasting out EM" but "I'm resonating".

Well, generally the higher-powered microwaves *ARE* generated by a resonant cavity.


Yeah, but this would be a resonant cavity on the output after the wave guide, not just the tank circuit.
 
2014-08-01 04:22:37 PM

dittybopper: We could get there in a matter of weeks if we wanted to.  Just build a spacecraft with a big-ass plate and throw nuclear bombs out the back.


Isn't that the space equivalent of rolling coal? What about those poor Prius starships in your wake?
 
2014-08-01 04:31:53 PM

dittybopper: and we're just noticing some effect


They didn't say HOW MUCH power they were resonating.  I imagine if it's clawing at a virtual particle, the effect has to be minute.
 
2014-08-01 04:37:15 PM
media.desura.com
Could be worse.
 
2014-08-01 04:40:43 PM
Did we learn nothing from Event Horizon?
 
2014-08-01 04:41:09 PM
Why did my microwave oven just go flying out the window?
 
2014-08-01 04:49:10 PM
i1182.photobucket.com
 
2014-08-01 04:54:30 PM
Well, this is what they're saying they've got: A quantum vacuum plasma thruster, which is about as awesomely sci-fi sounding as you could hope for.
 
2014-08-01 05:11:47 PM
Impulse drive in Star Trek is actually I. M. Pulse drive. For Internally metered pulse drive. of course everyone called it impulse cause that's what humans do. I wonder if this EMdrive pulses in any way... because empulse and impulse sound the same.
 
2014-08-01 05:20:00 PM

Theaetetus: dittybopper: Theaetetus: ... if each one surrounded its microwave transmitter with a resonant cavity, which they don't. It's not just "I'm blasting out EM" but "I'm resonating".

Well, generally the higher-powered microwaves *ARE* generated by a resonant cavity.

Yeah, but this would be a resonant cavity on the output after the wave guide, not just the tank circuit.


Oh, got ya.  Seems to me that would cause other problems, but I'm not a microwave guy, so I can't really tell.

Still, in reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that he's been fooling around with this for at least 15 years (formed his company in 2000, so you figure he started in 1999 at the latest).

That's an awful long time for something so potentially useful to be trapped in development by a single person, even if it's only for low-powered maneuvering thrusters that don't emit anything, which would be extremely useful in close proximity to delicate objects, say, like the ISS.
 
2014-08-01 06:23:29 PM
what about a shaw-fujikawa translight engine?
 
2014-08-01 06:30:42 PM
Jubal invented "the squeezer"?
 
2014-08-01 06:35:12 PM

dittybopper: serial_crusher: call me when NASA invents a ship that travels at the speed of plot.

How about at the speed of putz:

[www.tombsofkobol.com image 299x133]


I prefer Ludicrous Speed myself.
 
2014-08-01 06:36:49 PM

dittybopper: Theaetetus: dittybopper: Theaetetus: ... if each one surrounded its microwave transmitter with a resonant cavity, which they don't. It's not just "I'm blasting out EM" but "I'm resonating".

Well, generally the higher-powered microwaves *ARE* generated by a resonant cavity.

Yeah, but this would be a resonant cavity on the output after the wave guide, not just the tank circuit.

Oh, got ya.  Seems to me that would cause other problems, but I'm not a microwave guy, so I can't really tell.

Still, in reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that he's been fooling around with this for at least 15 years (formed his company in 2000, so you figure he started in 1999 at the latest).

That's an awful long time for something so potentially useful to be trapped in development by a single person, even if it's only for low-powered maneuvering thrusters that don't emit anything, which would be extremely useful in close proximity to delicate objects, say, like the ISS.


Thorium has been suffering from that for 50 years, and we're just now finally getting some movement on it. It'll suck because it will mean the Chinese will become energy independent and wholly insufferable, but so will everybody else once the genie is out of the bottle.

This technology is similar. It's not that it's being "held up," it's that there's only so much work one team can do. That they've made this much progress is, frankly, impressive. Do keep in mind that there are apparently two different examples of this drive providing thrust, the Chinese have one too.
 
2014-08-01 06:37:03 PM
www.reddwarf.co.uk
 
2014-08-01 06:38:39 PM
I don't understand. China has built a drive, and so has some British dudes, and NASA has said it works, but some guys on Fark say it's fishy, and unlikely. I don't know who to believe.
 
2014-08-01 06:40:21 PM

Slaxl: I don't understand. China has built a drive, and so has some British dudes, and NASA has said it works, but some guys on Fark say it's fishy, and unlikely. I don't know who to believe.


The concept was developed by a British Scientist. The UK hasn't actually built a drive.
 
2014-08-01 06:48:40 PM
So if I stick a battery in my microwave I can travel to Mars? That's what I'm getting out of this.
 
2014-08-01 06:51:51 PM
Until we can come up with a proper gravitic drive I will not be excited.
 
2014-08-01 06:53:14 PM

Jaden Smith First of His Name: So if I stick a battery in my microwave I can travel to Mars? That's what I'm getting out of this.


No, no no... A battery in a Tilt-a-Whirl car.
 
2014-08-01 06:55:13 PM

Slaxl: I don't understand. China has built a drive, and so has some British dudes, and NASA has said it works, but some guys on Fark say it's fishy, and unlikely. I don't know who to believe.


The problem is that it seems to violate Newton's laws of motion.  I'm not saying this is impossible, there may very well be a quantum effect occurring which allows the engine to function, but the notion that an engineer came up with a functional engine without science having a robust theoretical model which predicts/explains the engine function in advance is very unlikely.  It would need a lot of validation and a solid theoretical explanation before we start putting ships in space.
 
2014-08-01 07:03:14 PM

Jaden Smith First of His Name: So if I stick a battery in my microwave I can travel to Mars? That's what I'm getting out of this.


I think you should try it out and get back to us!
 
2014-08-01 07:34:32 PM

iq_in_binary: dittybopper: Theaetetus: dittybopper: Theaetetus: ... if each one surrounded its microwave transmitter with a resonant cavity, which they don't. It's not just "I'm blasting out EM" but "I'm resonating".

Well, generally the higher-powered microwaves *ARE* generated by a resonant cavity.

Yeah, but this would be a resonant cavity on the output after the wave guide, not just the tank circuit.

Oh, got ya.  Seems to me that would cause other problems, but I'm not a microwave guy, so I can't really tell.

Still, in reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that he's been fooling around with this for at least 15 years (formed his company in 2000, so you figure he started in 1999 at the latest).

That's an awful long time for something so potentially useful to be trapped in development by a single person, even if it's only for low-powered maneuvering thrusters that don't emit anything, which would be extremely useful in close proximity to delicate objects, say, like the ISS.

Thorium has been suffering from that for 50 years, and we're just now finally getting some movement on it. It'll suck because it will mean the Chinese will become energy independent and wholly insufferable, but so will everybody else once the genie is out of the bottle.

This technology is similar. It's not that it's being "held up," it's that there's only so much work one team can do. That they've made this much progress is, frankly, impressive. Do keep in mind that there are apparently two different examples of this drive providing thrust, the Chinese have one too.


There's also the problem that on the surface the basic science sounds implausible [by contrast, the challenges with thorium reactors are primarily political and practical, the theory is fine -- although India has been dicking around with them for a couple of decades with nothing to show for it]. That makes other researchers reluctant to get involved until there is solid evidence that there is something worth going after -- and by implication, dropping all the other things you could be researching -- which is why it's been essentially a one team effort up to now.

And when it comes to evidence, the effect is very small (also the reason the effect hasn't been noticed accidentally already) so it takes a lot of care to confirm that you've eliminated all sources of noise and error [contrast cold fusion...]. So given all that, it's not so surprising that progress has been slow.

Personally? I really hope that this is true. It doesn't violate conservation of energy (when you properly account for relativity), and it probably doesn't violate conservation of momentum anymore than the Casimir effect does. But I'm not going to be investing in Emdrive stocks any time soon.
 
2014-08-01 07:39:16 PM

Stile4aly: The problem is that it seems to violate Newton's laws of motion. I'm not saying this is impossible, there may very well be a quantum effect occurring which allows the engine to function, but the notion that an engineer came up with a functional engine without science having a robust theoretical model which predicts/explains the engine function in advance is very unlikely. It would need a lot of validation and a solid theoretical explanation before we start putting ships in space.


The good news is, relativity already violates Newton's laws of motion (which turn out to be only a really good approximation when relativistic effects don't matter, and in particular in a static spacetime). And it wouldn't be the first time that the engineering was ahead of the theory (did you know? there isn't even universal agreement that a solar sail could work).

The bad news is, it's not entirely clear that this doesn't violate conservation laws even with relativity accounted for.

On the whole, though, I'm with you: I'd really like to see a more widely-accepted theoretical foundation before I get carried away.
 
2014-08-01 07:51:10 PM
dittybopper:
Still, in reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that he's been fooling around with this for at least 15 years (formed his company in 2000, so you figure he started in 1999 at the latest).

That's an awful long time for something so potentially useful to be trapped in development by a single person, even if it's only for low-powered maneuvering thrusters that don't emit anything, which would be extremely useful in close proximity to delicate objects, say, like the ISS.


I've been wikipedia-level following this for the last few years, and if there is merit to the idea, then something REALLY weird is going on.  Like tin-foil hat level weird.  Because NASA took a good long look at this in 2004, said it was "inconclusive" and then shiat-canned any further research.  So either this really is bullshiat (but why the reversal at NASA then?) or it's not bullshiat and someone in the government was trying to suppress it, or something else is going on.

I mean, there is no reason this should work, but it's relatively easy to test if it does work.

And off topic: what the hell ever happened to the anti-gravity effect of a rotating superconductor.  Just to bring up another fringe "scientific" phenomenon that just sorta died away.
 
2014-08-01 07:53:21 PM
Don't buy stock in impossible space drives just yet

This is a thorough debunking at Ars Technica.
 
2014-08-01 07:59:31 PM

dittybopper: serial_crusher: call me when NASA invents a ship that travels at the speed of plot.

How about at the speed of putz:


(Exits ship, inhales deeply): "Good. There's Oxygen on this planet."
 
2014-08-01 08:03:41 PM

gopher321: Why did my microwave oven just go flying out the window?


... it just read the first paragraph of "The Skylark of Space", by E.E. "Doc" Smith?
 
2014-08-01 08:04:24 PM
....Tell me more.

dl.dropboxusercontent.com
 
2014-08-01 08:05:47 PM

Vacation Bible School: Jaden Smith First of His Name: So if I stick a battery in my microwave I can travel to Mars? That's what I'm getting out of this.

No, no no... A battery in a Tilt-a-Whirl car.


I remember 'Explorers'...
 
2014-08-01 08:15:20 PM
Fine and all that, but will it reheat my burrito?
 
2014-08-01 08:29:35 PM
iq_in_binary:
Thorium has been suffering from that for 50 years, and we're just now finally getting some movement on it. It'll suck because it will mean the Chinese will become energy independent and wholly insufferable, but so will everybody else once the genie is out of the bottle.

This technology is similar. It's not that it's being "held up," it's that there's only so much work one team can do. That they've made this much progress is, frankly, impressive. Do keep in mind that there are apparently two different examples of this drive providing thrust, the Chinese have one too.


Man I wish they would give up on the whole fusion thing and funnel all that grant money into developing thorium.
 
2014-08-01 08:31:50 PM

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Vacation Bible School: Jaden Smith First of His Name: So if I stick a battery in my microwave I can travel to Mars? That's what I'm getting out of this.

No, no no... A battery in a Tilt-a-Whirl car.

I remember 'Explorers'...


That movie was awesome until the last 20 mins.
 
2014-08-01 08:36:14 PM

BigLuca: iq_in_binary:
Thorium has been suffering from that for 50 years, and we're just now finally getting some movement on it. It'll suck because it will mean the Chinese will become energy independent and wholly insufferable, but so will everybody else once the genie is out of the bottle.

This technology is similar. It's not that it's being "held up," it's that there's only so much work one team can do. That they've made this much progress is, frankly, impressive. Do keep in mind that there are apparently two different examples of this drive providing thrust, the Chinese have one too.

Man I wish they would give up on the whole fusion thing and funnel all that grant money into developing thorium.




The instant (and I do mean instant, congress would be shiatting itself trying to guarantee their energy sector donors not to mention the big contractors that would be building the reactors get the dough for it) either India or China has a reactor that can sustain a reaction even only temporarily, that's exactly what will happen.
 
2014-08-01 08:52:07 PM
Well how about that...

I guess we're all going to know pretty damn soon if the whole thing is working as suggested or not. I'd assume we'll get a few other groups of people trying to verify it now too, lickety-split.
 
2014-08-01 09:18:14 PM

way south: ....Tell me more.

[dl.dropboxusercontent.com image 250x251]


Space.  Spacespace.  Spaaaaaaaace
 
2014-08-01 09:24:24 PM
So if the ships end up being built by the Chinese, will components of the ship start malfunctioning approximately thirty minutes after the warranty expires?
 
Displayed 50 of 113 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report