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(NPR)   For all you Eric Snowden detractors out there, a new study shows that the Snowden leaks have helped Americans to greatly increase the security of their communications. Oh, did I say "Americans"? I meant terrorists   (npr.org ) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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664 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Aug 2014 at 10:14 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-08-01 08:03:53 AM  
Probably Americans too, but in any case, this is exactly the expected outcome when you tell people that are being spied on how the spying is happening.
 
2014-08-01 08:19:14 AM  
If only the NSA could act with complete secrecy and impunity I'd be so safe right now
 
2014-08-01 08:30:33 AM  
Say what else you will about Eric Snowden, at least he doesn't make unwise choices in facial hair the way his asshole brother Edward does.
 
2014-08-01 08:34:18 AM  

whistleridge: Say what else you will about Eric Snowden, at least he doesn't make unwise choices in facial hair the way his asshole brother Edward does.


Heh.
 
2014-08-01 08:35:05 AM  
Hey, if it helps Glenn Greenwald fame-whore, what're a few thousand global casualties?
 
2014-08-01 08:39:38 AM  

kronicfeld: Hey, if it helps Glenn Greenwald fame-whore, what're a few thousand global casualties?


Name one casualty.

One.

This is also a correlation/causation fallacy, but hey, if it fits a narrative, why not.
 
2014-08-01 08:48:14 AM  
Good.

One of the prices you pay for living in a free society is the fact that any substantial right can be abused, and that abuse can have a cost in terms of human lives.

Happens with *ALL* substantial rights.

Sometimes, it's easy to see the cost, as with the Second Amendment:  Simply tally up the number of people killed by guns, book it, done.  There's your cost.

Sometimes, it's hard to see the cost, because it's hidden or less direct.  Would Eric Robert Rudolph have been able to carry out his bombings of abortion clinics without freedom of speech (to get bomb making instructions, and for motivation) and freedom of religion (motivation)?   How many criminals go free each year because the police can't force a confession out of them, or just search their home at will without a warrant?  We'll likely never know the true answer to those questions with any real precision, but that doesn't mean that those rights (and others) don't have a real cost in human lives associated with them.

So I'm not upset that there is likely to be a human cost to the government not being able to read our communications if we want to keep them private.

Also, you have to think about the future, and how definitions and governments can change.

Neither you, not I, nor anyone else can say with any certainty that the government of the United States in 50 or 100 years is going to be respectful of the human rights of our descendants.  Maybe that doesn't matter to you, because you'll be dead.  Fine, but I've got a son who is 10 and I don't want him to be arrested for thoughtcrimes when he's 60 years old, because I didn't think that protecting the privacy of communications from the government was important.
 
2014-08-01 08:49:03 AM  

kronicfeld: Hey, if it helps Glenn Greenwald fame-whore, what're a few thousand global casualties?


Someone get me my fainting couch! That still doesn't excuse the wholesale surveillance of US citizens without probable cause.
 
2014-08-01 08:49:37 AM  

PreMortem: kronicfeld: Hey, if it helps Glenn Greenwald fame-whore, what're a few thousand global casualties?

Name one casualty.

One.

This is also a correlation/causation fallacy, but hey, if it fits a narrative, why not.


Even if there were a few thousand casualties, out of billions of people, it's a small price to pay.

All substantial freedoms have a cost in human lives.
 
2014-08-01 08:52:35 AM  

dittybopper: PreMortem: kronicfeld: Hey, if it helps Glenn Greenwald fame-whore, what're a few thousand global casualties?

Name one casualty.

One.

This is also a correlation/causation fallacy, but hey, if it fits a narrative, why not.

Even if there were a few thousand casualties, out of billions of people, it's a small price to pay.

All substantial freedoms have a cost in human lives.


Authoritarians will always lean on the "need for security" to erode civil liberties.
 
2014-08-01 08:58:07 AM  
dittybopper:
All substantial freedoms have a cost in human lives.

While I agree, that's still pretty easy to say when you're not the one who's paying the direct cost.
 
2014-08-01 08:59:18 AM  
I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.
 
2014-08-01 09:06:03 AM  
We need to actually dismantle the whole domestic surveillance program.

Even if you put in legislative "protections", forbidding them to access the data without a court order, you still leave open the ability for a future government to abuse the system secretly.

We were fortunate, and owe Ed Snowden a great debt, in that he exposed the program before it became so entrenched that it couldn't be removed.

Now, we have to have the collective will to remove it.

There is no excuse for the NSA to collect on any United States Person without a particularized FISA warrant.  None.  Zip.  Nada.   Niente.

THAT INCLUDES MASS GATHERING AND STORAGE OF METADATA FOR LATER RETRIEVAL IF YOU HAPPEN TO GET A FISA WARRANT IN THE FUTURE.

Why?  Because the only possible protections you can build into that are insufficient to guarantee it won't be abused.  It's inherently secret.  Top Secret/SCI, in fact.  We have no idea if it's being abused or not, and absent someone like Ed Snowden who is willing to stick his neck out for us, we'd never know.

And that same kind of monitoring infrastructure that the NSA has built up in the United States has been used in places like Syria to oppress their people:

http://www.npr.org/2011/12/14/143639670/the-technology-helping-repre ss ive-regimes-spy

So the best thing to do is to forbid the NSA from physically collecting or storing the communications of United States Persons without a FISA warrant.  Take the ability to mass collect within the United States away from them.
 
2014-08-01 09:06:52 AM  

Nabb1: That still doesn't excuse the wholesale surveillance of US citizens without probable cause.


What about all the other stuff he released, the parts not pertaining to surveillance of US citizens but as part of intelligence-gathering or anti-terror operations?
 
2014-08-01 09:15:11 AM  

Some Bass Playing Guy: dittybopper:
All substantial freedoms have a cost in human lives.

While I agree, that's still pretty easy to say when you're not the one who's paying the direct cost.


We can make that argument for everything.  I'm sure a rape victim would be pissed to learn that the person who raped her had been arrested prior to her rape on on suspicion of a prior rape, but because he had the right to remain silent, they had to release him.

Now, I might be sympathetic to the rape victim, but that doesn't mean I think we should repeal the Fifth Amendment, or even weaken it just a little bit.

Because the potential consequences to society as a whole from that line of thinking are far, far more scary than any individual crime, even the most horrendous ones.
 
2014-08-01 09:16:36 AM  
So this whole pile of 'evidence' mounts up to nothing more than "a few al-Qaeda associated groups upgraded their encryption software"?  I have to wonder how many sensitive communications they were even using on the old systems?

It's not like it's that hard with today's internet to generate and hand out one time use encryption pads which are theoretically unbreakable.  Just send a courier to give your buddy the name of some pornstar wallpaper site and use the 1600x900 pictures there as your keys.
 
2014-08-01 09:20:46 AM  
Eric Snow's den:
www.walltor.com
 
2014-08-01 09:21:17 AM  
Oh please.. like they were gonna use the same program forever and ever anyway.
 
2014-08-01 09:22:55 AM  
A government without rule of law is no different than a terrorist org.
 
2014-08-01 09:31:19 AM  
Well, it's pretty clear who's on Team Eric here.
 
2014-08-01 09:39:55 AM  

RexTalionis: Nabb1: That still doesn't excuse the wholesale surveillance of US citizens without probable cause.

What about all the other stuff he released, the parts not pertaining to surveillance of US citizens but as part of intelligence-gathering or anti-terror operations?


What about them?

It is literally impossible to describe the mechanisms of domestic surveillance without revealing sources and methods that are also applied to foreign intelligence.

Even if the only information released directly pertains to the surveillance of United States persons, that same information could be extrapolated by foreign agencies and terror organizations and used to modify their procedures to minimize the threat.

Not that it would matter anyway:  The lessons have already been learned by the terrorist organizations.  Osama bin Laden avoided using any electronic communications, for example.  That's why it took us 10 years to find him.  Had he used a cell/sat/wire phone, and/or a computer or other device on any consistent basis, we'd have found him very quickly.

Also, despite the faux outrage by the German government to the revelation that we were listening in on the conversations of Angela Merkel, the German version of the NSA, the Bundesnachrichtensdienst, would do the very same thing to Barack Obama if it could (and maybe it has).  Remember the whole thing about Obama's BlackBerry?
http://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-obamas-blackberry-got- se cured.html

The NSA went to extraordinary measures to secure his device.  It sounds to me like the BND didn't take those measures with Merkel's phone.
 
2014-08-01 10:07:55 AM  
I'm shocked, you mean that as time progresses these terrorist networks are improving their technical proficiency in secure communication instead of getting worse at it?  Wow, it's almost like they're living in the real world and adapting to technological changes like just about everyone else.

Clearly this could not be foreseen.
 
2014-08-01 10:21:29 AM  

Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.


LOL wut

I'm not sure what the pivot point is for supporting or hating Snowden, but it doesn't seem to be political affiliation.
 
2014-08-01 10:27:44 AM  
He's a SUPER PATRIOT!

Thank you, Mr. Snowden. I can rest easy now knowing that a hunt like the one for OBL that lasted 20 years may now last 50 years! Or more! Yay!
 
2014-08-01 10:28:57 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: He's a SUPER PATRIOT!

Thank you, Mr. Snowden. I can rest easy now knowing that a hunt like the one for OBL that lasted 20 years may now last 50 years! Or more! Yay!


We caught OBL with a massive domestic spying program?
 
2014-08-01 10:31:25 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: He's a SUPER PATRIOT!

Thank you, Mr. Snowden. I can rest easy now knowing that a hunt like the one for OBL that lasted 20 years may now last 50 years! Or more! Yay!

We caught OBL with a massive domestic spying program?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8489078/Osam a- bin-Laden-killed-phonecall-by-courier-led-US-to-their-target.html
 
2014-08-01 10:32:44 AM  

kronicfeld: Hey, if it helps Glenn Greenwald fame-whore, what're a few thousand global casualties?


To be fair, he's made a shiat ton of money off this whole thing.
 
2014-08-01 10:33:37 AM  

Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.

the RNC on orders of the IRS.

FTFY
 
2014-08-01 10:34:59 AM  
Shoot. The 2004 and 2005 entries in this article are fascinating. I didn't know we launched a raid to capture OBL in 2004. Neither did I know we had intel in 2005 but the unit meant to use that intel to capture OBL had been shut down months before.

Wheeeeee!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8488064/O sa ma-bin-Laden-dead-a-timeline-of-missed-opportunities.html
 
2014-08-01 10:35:27 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.

LOL wut

I'm not sure what the pivot point is for supporting or hating Snowden, but it doesn't seem to be political affiliation.


Yeah, it's been interesting how in this age of hyperpartisanship there have been next to no strong calls from people like Limbaugh or Hannity against Snowden. The demagogues have been surprisingly silent on this issue, even though they've hammered Obama on everything from Benghazi to.. shiat I don't even pay attention anymore. Everything.

But Snowden? For some reason both him and the issues he raised largely get a pass from the "everything Obama does is literally Hitler" crowd. There hasn't even been much along the lines of "how could Obama let this happen", really, which is the least I would have expected.

Kind interesting. Not sure what to make of it, but it's interesting.
 
2014-08-01 10:38:42 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: HotWingConspiracy: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: He's a SUPER PATRIOT!

Thank you, Mr. Snowden. I can rest easy now knowing that a hunt like the one for OBL that lasted 20 years may now last 50 years! Or more! Yay!

We caught OBL with a massive domestic spying program?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8489078/Osam a- bin-Laden-killed-phonecall-by-courier-led-US-to-their-target.html


Where in America was the courier when the call was intercepted?
 
2014-08-01 10:40:22 AM  
dittybopper:

Also, despite the faux outrage by the German government to the revelation that we were listening in on the conversations of Angela Merkel, the German version of the NSA, the Bundesnachrichtensdienst, would do the very same thing to Barack Obama if it could (and maybe it has).  Remember the whole thing about Obama's BlackBerry?
http://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-obamas-blackberry-got- se cured.html

The NSA went to extraordinary measures to secure his device.  It sounds to me like the BND didn't take those measures with Merkel's phone.


I think the Merkel incident lies pretty closely with the domestic spying issue in the USA. Germany is supposed to be an ally, and allies supposedly* don't spy on each other, certainly not the leader's phone. So the fact that the NSA/USA was spying on Merkel showed how out of control it was.
To put it another way, the NSA were doing it not because they had to, but because they could. Much like the domestic spying. Just because they can do it, doesn't mean they  should.

*take this with a pillar of salt
 
2014-08-01 10:41:39 AM  

Karac: It's not like it's that hard with today's internet to generate and hand out one time use encryption pads which are theoretically unbreakable.


Actually, you don't want to use the internet for that.

What you want to do is generate them manually, and pass them out in person or through a trusted courier, without them ever being in electronic form.

It's relatively easy, cheap, and fairly quick to generate cryptographically secure one time pads with 10-sided dice.  Get a manual typewriter, some two-part blank carbonless paper, a handful of 10-sided dice, and you can easily produce one time pads like this:

img.fark.net

If you're particularly anal about randomness, buy a whole bunch of them and randomly pick a handful out of the container every so often, but from a security standpoint I don't think the requirement for absolute statistical randomness matters unless you're sending more traffic than you could possibly generate pads for manually anyway.

The reason why you don't want to use a computer for this kind of thing is shown by the NSA leaks (though I've been saying it for years here on Fark):  You simply can't guarantee that you've adequately secured a computer that isn't completely isolated.

So the simple way to do things securely is with pen and paper, because you know that once you've destroyed the paper (for example by completely burning it), you've destroyed the information and it's not possible to get it back.  And it's much easier to secure a piece of paper than a computer.
 
2014-08-01 10:43:28 AM  

Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.


"The left" as you so wrongly phrase it, didn't like it when Bush signed it the first time, or when Obama kept it going, and we don't like it now.

But you're cute, so keep going with that.
 
2014-08-01 10:44:28 AM  

illegal.tender: HotWingConspiracy: Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.

LOL wut

I'm not sure what the pivot point is for supporting or hating Snowden, but it doesn't seem to be political affiliation.

Yeah, it's been interesting how in this age of hyperpartisanship there have been next to no strong calls from people like Limbaugh or Hannity against Snowden. The demagogues have been surprisingly silent on this issue, even though they've hammered Obama on everything from Benghazi to.. shiat I don't even pay attention anymore. Everything.

But Snowden? For some reason both him and the issues he raised largely get a pass from the "everything Obama does is literally Hitler" crowd. There hasn't even been much along the lines of "how could Obama let this happen", really, which is the least I would have expected.

Kind interesting. Not sure what to make of it, but it's interesting.


It's pretty simple, really:  There is no possible way they can make it bad for Obama without making it bad for Bush.

The programs were set up under Bush (and to a much lesser extent, under Clinton), and Obama merely continued them despite his promise to not do so.
 
2014-08-01 10:45:10 AM  

whistleridge: Say what else you will about Eric Snowden, at least he doesn't make unwise choices in facial hair the way his asshole brother Edward does.


Came for something along this line, leaving satisfied.
 
2014-08-01 10:49:05 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: HotWingConspiracy: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: He's a SUPER PATRIOT!

Thank you, Mr. Snowden. I can rest easy now knowing that a hunt like the one for OBL that lasted 20 years may now last 50 years! Or more! Yay!

We caught OBL with a massive domestic spying program?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8489078/Osam a- bin-Laden-killed-phonecall-by-courier-led-US-to-their-target.html

Where in America was the courier when the call was intercepted?

 
2014-08-01 10:50:21 AM  
www.slate.com
 
2014-08-01 10:54:16 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.

LOL wut

I'm not sure what the pivot point is for supporting or hating Snowden, but it doesn't seem to be political affiliation.


There was a time when you could count on Democrats and the left to be staunch advocates of the Fourth Amendment and civil liberties. The silence from the mainstream Democrats and even outright condemnation of Snowden shows that simply isn't the case. Republicans are no help, either. Fringes of both parties have expressed outrage, but our mainstream parties no longer have principles. They only have political interests.
 
2014-08-01 10:57:23 AM  

Nabb1: HotWingConspiracy: Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.

LOL wut

I'm not sure what the pivot point is for supporting or hating Snowden, but it doesn't seem to be political affiliation.

There was a time when you could count on Democrats and the left to be staunch advocates of the Fourth Amendment and civil liberties. The silence from the mainstream Democrats and even outright condemnation of Snowden shows that simply isn't the case. Republicans are no help, either. Fringes of both parties have expressed outrage, but our mainstream parties no longer have principles. They only have political interests.


Our mainstream parties had principles? When was this?
 
2014-08-01 10:57:24 AM  

No Catchy Nickname: I think the Merkel incident lies pretty closely with the domestic spying issue in the USA. Germany is supposed to be an ally, and allies supposedly* don't spy on each other, certainly not the leader's phone. So the fact that the NSA/USA was spying on Merkel showed how out of control it was.
To put it another way, the NSA were doing it not because they had to, but because they could. Much like the domestic spying. Just because they can do it, doesn't mean they  should.

*take this with a pillar of salt


A massive pillar of salt.  Allies have always spied on each other, and it's not necessarily nefarious.  It happens less during wartime because generally the resources need to be spent on monitoring actual enemies, but it still happens to an extent.

Basically, though, as far as US Allies are concerned, if you aren't part of the UKUSA Agreement (UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand), you're also a potential target.
 
2014-08-01 10:58:55 AM  

Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.


Huh? Assuming you're not trolling, the "Left" has been outraged since a Republican congress passed it and W signed it into law. If you didn't know that you need to get out of the farking echo chamber.
 
2014-08-01 11:00:08 AM  
Terrorists? You mean the people whose territory we encroached upon to the point of making them feel cornered and trapped?
 
2014-08-01 11:05:50 AM  

digistil: Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.

Huh? Assuming you're not trolling, the "Left" has been outraged since a Republican congress passed it and W signed it into law. If you didn't know that you need to get out of the farking echo chamber.


When did that happen?

The domestic spying thing wasn't part of the US PATRIOT Act, it was enabled by a secret determination and implemented through an executive order.  An executive order isn't a law, and certainly isn't written by Congress.
 
2014-08-01 11:06:27 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Terrorists? You mean the people whose territory we encroached upon to the point of making them feel cornered and trapped?


But enough about the Bundy kerfluffle....
 
2014-08-01 11:07:19 AM  

dittybopper: The My Little Pony Killer: Terrorists? You mean the people whose territory we encroached upon to the point of making them feel cornered and trapped?

But enough about the Bundy kerfluffle....


What? Are you one of those sovereign retards?
 
2014-08-01 11:09:15 AM  

dittybopper: digistil: Nabb1: I swear, I think the only way the American left is going to get upset about the NSA is if we can convince them the NSA has been spying on Planned Parenthood.

Huh? Assuming you're not trolling, the "Left" has been outraged since a Republican congress passed it and W signed it into law. If you didn't know that you need to get out of the farking echo chamber.

When did that happen?

The domestic spying thing wasn't part of the US PATRIOT Act, it was enabled by a secret determination and implemented through an executive order.  An executive order isn't a law, and certainly isn't written by Congress.


NSA domestic surveillance started in the 1990's under Clinton. The PATRIOT Act has given the Executive far more authority in these matters, but you are indeed correct this was long before the PATRIOT Act was passed, sweepingly, with a minimum of opposition.
 
2014-08-01 11:10:51 AM  

dittybopper: It's pretty simple, really:  There is no possible way they can make it bad for Obama without making it bad for Bush.

The programs were set up under Bush (and to a much lesser extent, under Clinton), and Obama merely continued them despite his promise to not do so.


Although true that hasn't stopped them from blaming Obama for Bush's bailout, or for instability in Iraq, or the rule Bush made that refugee kids get a court hearing. It seems like they largely don't do things like that because they don't have the ability to engage in actual policy discussions.
 
2014-08-01 11:12:06 AM  
 
2014-08-01 11:13:09 AM  

Halli: dittybopper: The My Little Pony Killer: Terrorists? You mean the people whose territory we encroached upon to the point of making them feel cornered and trapped?

But enough about the Bundy kerfluffle....

What? Are you one of those sovereign retards?


Must be, since the issue with Bundy has always been land he does not and has never owned.
 
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