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(Forbes)   Between 2009 and 2011, armed IRS agents fired their guns accidentally more often than they fired their guns on purpose   ( forbes.com) divider line
    More: Fail, IRS, tax collectors  
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3462 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jul 2014 at 1:10 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-07-31 09:56:23 AM  
I heard a similar figure for DC police.
 
2014-07-31 10:07:16 AM  
Negligent discharges are bad, but I have no idea why agents not intentionally shooting on purpose (except on the range) is a bad thing.
 
2014-07-31 10:17:18 AM  
So what, twice and once, respectively?
 
2014-07-31 10:20:11 AM  
Maybe a couple billion more rounds of practice ammo are in order.
 
2014-07-31 10:23:25 AM  
How many armed agents does the IRS need?

You'd think if they needed more than a guy serving court papers that they would coordinate with local law enforcement or some other agency.
 
2014-07-31 10:24:56 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Maybe a couple billion more rounds of practice ammo are in order.


*sigh*
 
2014-07-31 10:27:38 AM  
That makes 100% sense.
 
2014-07-31 10:32:41 AM  
IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?
 
2014-07-31 10:35:06 AM  

Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?


To take down Capone's men:
1.bp.blogspot.comView Full Size
 
2014-07-31 10:35:27 AM  

Gecko Gingrich: *sigh*


What does DHS have to do with the IRS?

But what the hell. Let me fix it for you.

Dancin_In_Anson: Maybe a 70 million more rounds of practice ammo are in order.


Howzzat?
 
2014-07-31 10:36:24 AM  

OregonVet: Negligent discharges are bad, but I have no idea why agents not intentionally shooting on purpose (except on the range) is a bad thing.


Yeah, negligent discharges are a fact of life when you have people carrying, just like traffic wrecks and porn spyware on work computers.  Stupid, burdensome, and avoidable with common sense but they seem to come part and parcel with issuing people weapons.  That IRS agents are not shooting at people very often is good news, because LEOs are only supposed to shoot to kill.  11 negligent discharges in three years and 8 intentional discharges in three years for a nationwide agency is a pretty low burden on Joe Public.
 
2014-07-31 10:37:31 AM  

Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?


Link
 
2014-07-31 10:38:30 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Howzzat?


Better, in that it's neither histrionic nor hyperbolic.
 
2014-07-31 10:38:51 AM  

Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?



Because other departments get guns! Imagine you are a tax collector, and your buddy at the Library of Congress or the U.S. Park Service gets a pistol and you don't? You would feel pretty bad.
 
2014-07-31 10:41:12 AM  

Rev.K: THEY HAVE GUNS?!


Apparently it is only the Criminal Investigative special agents that serve tax fraud/evasion warrants, not the accountants.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-07-31 11:05:19 AM  
I would imagine it's that way with any law enforcement agency.  They carry guns every day but hopefully don't shoot at people very often.
 
2014-07-31 11:05:39 AM  
Well good.
 
2014-07-31 11:10:08 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Maybe a couple billion more rounds of practice ammo are in order.


i.imgflip.comView Full Size
 
2014-07-31 01:17:04 PM  
The headline says fail, but describes a situation that is ideal. Why does subby want to the IRS to open fire on people?
 
2014-07-31 01:17:58 PM  

Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?


Some folks don't like revenuers.

cdphs.orgView Full Size
 
2014-07-31 01:19:06 PM  

Rev.K: THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?


Because they do occasionally arrest people and serve warrants, and sidearms are standard for arrests in case the arrestee gets violent.

They don't carry them around all the time, and not all agents get issued them to begin with (because much of the IRS doesn't handle arrests).  You did notice that even the accidental discharges for the entire national agency barely hit the double digits, right?  That only happens if they essentially aren't armed on average.
 
2014-07-31 01:25:09 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Because they do occasionally arrest people and serve warrants, and sidearms are standard for arrests in case the arrestee gets violent.


So, what...?

We don't have enough actual police, so now I've got to worry about Sherm from accounting drawing down on me?

/My best friend from high school is an IRS agent...
//Please...DO NOT give that man a gun!
 
2014-07-31 01:27:05 PM  

Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?


img.fark.netView Full Size


If you forget to add line 14c to 21b if you made more money in the last six months than you did in the prior fiscal year not including bonuses or one time payments then you can expect these guys to show up.
 
2014-07-31 01:27:14 PM  

Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?


Everything three letter agency these days has it's own armed officers and SWAT teams. It's disgusting, and, as you imply, cannot be justified.

If the IRS can't get the FBI or State/Local police interested in helping them execute their warrants and siezures, they can go to hell. Same for the 400 other agencies that have their own armed officers.
 
2014-07-31 01:28:23 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Rev.K: THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?

Because they do occasionally arrest people and serve warrants, and sidearms are standard for arrests in case the arrestee gets violent.

They don't carry them around all the time, and not all agents get issued them to begin with (because much of the IRS doesn't handle arrests).  You did notice that even the accidental discharges for the entire national agency barely hit the double digits, right?  That only happens if they essentially aren't armed on average.


You'd think that's what the FBI or US Marshals service is for.

Then again all federal agencies are armed, including the EPA.
 
2014-07-31 01:29:57 PM  

vernonFL: How many armed agents does the IRS need?

You'd think if they needed more than a guy serving court papers that they would coordinate with local law enforcement or some other agency.


Because people who are the most vehemently against taxes are the ones who tend to be the most pro-gun, and willing to use them.
 
2014-07-31 01:33:11 PM  

dfenstrate: Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?

Everything three letter agency these days has it's own armed officers and SWAT teams. It's disgusting, and, as you imply, cannot be justified.

If the IRS can't get the FBI or State/Local police interested in helping them execute their warrants and siezures, they can go to hell. Same for the 400 other agencies that have their own armed officers.



IRS: Hello, local law enforcement. This is the IRS. We need you to arrest a gun toting crazy in your jurisdiction for tax evasion.

LEO: Sorry, we aint' risking our men enforcing federal laws. You're on your own.
 
2014-07-31 01:37:58 PM  
Learn something new everyday.  The IRS has armed squad.
 
2014-07-31 01:38:33 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Rev.K: IRS agents have guns?

IRS...like the tax people?

THEY HAVE GUNS?!

WHAT THE F*CK FOR?

Link


Carry a badge then carry a gun
 
2014-07-31 01:44:05 PM  

vernonFL: How many armed agents does the IRS need?

You'd think if they needed more than a guy serving court papers that they would coordinate with local law enforcement or some other agency.


Local LE agencies typically don't care about penny-ante federal things that don't directly concern them.
 
2014-07-31 01:44:07 PM  
factoryconnection:

Yeah, negligent discharges are a fact of life when you have people carrying, just like traffic wrecks and porn spyware on work computers.  Stupid, burdensome, and avoidable with common sense but they seem to come part and parcel with issuing people weapons. (Agreed)


  That IRS agents are not shooting at people very often is good news, because LEOs are only supposed to shoot to kill.

Say this on the stand, and a good lawyer will turn the witness into Swiss cheese.  Theoretically, NO ONE should want to kill another human being.  Well trained armed individuals (including armed security, people working in corrections, etc)  are trained to shoot to stop the threat.  If the threat dies in the course of stopping it, that's an unfortunate circumstance.

Also, (this isn't directed at you, just stuff I read here) I laugh out loud when people talk about shooting a person in the leg, or shooting out tires on a moving vehicle.  Or the best one of all, shooting a dog in the leg.  People trained in the use of lethal force are trained to shoot "center mass", whatever that mass may be.

That being said, while I detest the fact that someone would shoot Fido or Fluffy, there are instances where people use dogs as weapons, or deterrence.  It's not the dog's fault, and IMHO it's the owner that deserves the bullet for doing something like that.  But, I seriously doubt anyone tolling FarkLand could hit a target moving 19 miles an hour (the speed of the average dog) the size of a dog leg.

Me, I prefer the Fletch approach...


img.fark.netView Full Size


And I suspect I'm going to get flamed like a SOB.  So be it....
 
2014-07-31 01:45:22 PM  
img.fark.netView Full Size


Some idiots by me keep posting these signs around. That kind of crap is probably why they need guns.

I really want to post a sign underneath it in the same color/font saying "Call 1-800-Potatoe or 1-800-I Derp" or something but I'm afraid I might get shot.
 
2014-07-31 01:46:08 PM  
So, you're saying they're NRA members.
 
2014-07-31 01:47:14 PM  
CSB:

Many years ago, I came upon an accident scene just after it had happened. A bad accident, involving a mangled semi with a trapped driver in a field off the side of the road. There were a bunch of us who had stopped and were doing what we could to help before the fire-and-rescue crew arrived--mostly moving pieces of debris out of the way and talking with the driver to keep him conscious.

One guy was in plain clothes, with a holstered gun on his belt and a badge that said, "US Treasury". Later, as we were walking back to our cars, I talked with him a bit, and it turned out he was an IRS agent, which surprised the hell out of me. It had never occurred to me that there would be IRS agents with guns.

/End CSB.
 
2014-07-31 01:52:18 PM  

Cdr.Murdock: Say this on the stand, and a good lawyer will turn the witness into Swiss cheese.  Theoretically, NO ONE should want to kill another human being.  Well trained armed individuals (including armed security, people working in corrections, etc)  are trained to shoot to stop the threat.  If the threat dies in the course of stopping it, that's an unfortunate circumstance.


Seriously?  If someone says "I used deadly force and shot to kill" they'd get eviscerated on the stand?  Eh, juries are people, so I guess playing on cognitive dissonance works.
 
2014-07-31 01:55:43 PM  

Teknowaffle: vernonFL: How many armed agents does the IRS need?

You'd think if they needed more than a guy serving court papers that they would coordinate with local law enforcement or some other agency.

Because people who are the most vehemently against taxes are the ones who tend to be the most pro-gun, and willing to use them.


Quick, name the one IRS agent who has been killed in the line of duty!

Michael Dillion

Now, described who killed him.

An ex-IRS employee.

Stop living in fear of something that doesn't happen.
 
2014-07-31 01:56:51 PM  
I love investigating facts like these because it doesn't matter what you find it is outrageous.

More accidental gunshots - OH MY GOD THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING WITH THEIR GUNS
More purposeful gunshots - WHY ARE HOMICIDAL IRS AGENTS PURPOSEFULLY SHOOTING PEOPLE ALL OVER THE PLACE?  THEY SHOULD PRACTICALLY NEVER SHOOT THEIR GUNS, UNLESS IT'S ON ACCIDENT OR SOMETHING
Equal accidental and purposeful gunshots - HAHA, THEY'RE INCOMPETENT AND HOMICIDAL
 
2014-07-31 01:58:01 PM  

exatron: So, you're saying they're NRA members.


Well that's about the weakest swipe at the NRA that I've heard in a few days.  It makes me think of that guy in high school that would desperately try to look cool or look like he knows what the hell he's talking about.  It always looked sad to me.

Maybe try looking into the subject before you open your sewer.  And Salon.com doesn't count as 'looking into it'.
 
2014-07-31 01:59:01 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Gecko Gingrich: *sigh*

What does DHS have to do with the IRS?

But what the hell. Let me fix it for you.

Dancin_In_Anson: Maybe a 70 million more rounds of practice ammo are in order.

Howzzat?


When did the IRS get the last 70 million rounds?
 
2014-07-31 02:00:04 PM  
Sure, juries are people, but court is really nothing but theater, and the jury the main audience.  If you're in a position where you've used deadly force and killed someone, and end up in the dock, it's going to be an emotional experience for everyone involved.  A good attorney can take the statement "I shot to kill" and make a lot of headway with that jury.

Intent is important in the minds of a jury.  I was fortunate to serve on a few and see the deliberation process first hand.  Sure you've been there too.  There's always a few in the bunch who totally throw the law to the wind and act on emotions in rendering a verdict.
 
2014-07-31 02:01:31 PM  

factoryconnection: OregonVet: Negligent discharges are bad, but I have no idea why agents not intentionally shooting on purpose (except on the range) is a bad thing.

Yeah, negligent discharges are a fact of life when you have people carrying, just like traffic wrecks and porn spyware on work computers.  Stupid, burdensome, and avoidable with common sense but they seem to come part and parcel with issuing people weapons.  That IRS agents are not shooting at people very often is good news, because LEOs are only supposed to shoot to kill.  11 negligent discharges in three years and 8 intentional discharges in three years for a nationwide agency is a pretty low burden on Joe Public.


Probably already said, leos shoot to stop not to kill.

You aren't one of those shoot the gun out of their hands or wing em in the leg idiots are you?
 
2014-07-31 02:02:27 PM  

uber humper: You'd think that's what the FBI or US Marshals service is for.

Then again all federal agencies are armed, including the EPA.


Warrants are served pretty often by pretty much every agency, man.  At some point I would suspect that the cost difference between having the US Marshals have to have it's own sub-agency on call at all times to handle IRS or EPA warrants and those agencies just having a few of their own people trained to do it is probably tilted in favor of the latter.

Especially in the case of the IRS, few people minimize costs better than they do, half of them can even pull something somewhat reasonable and efficient out of the tax code, they're like financial Jesus crossed with Houdini.

I think having so few field agents that even accidental discharges barely cross ten annually may make describing the agency in general as 'armed' something of an overstatement, too.
 
2014-07-31 02:04:02 PM  

Mithiwithi: When did the IRS get the last 70 million rounds?


Hell if I know. The article that was given to me was about DHS. However large or small the amount it seems to me like they could use some range time.
 
2014-07-31 02:04:54 PM  
The problem seems that your IRS is not about maximizing the return for the minimal amount of cost
It's all about exacting revenge on those who don't follow their precious rules.

I mean, doesn't it make more sense to keep a tax evader employed and garinsheeing the wages, rather than (1) fining him some figure that is impossible for him to ever obtain, then (2) sitcking him in jail where the cash flow becomes negative to the state and (3) good luck on him as an ex-congetting a job and providing more revenue for the state.

And the fact your IRS is now so "sacred" that they can carry weapons?

Really, your priorities are farked up
 
2014-07-31 02:06:18 PM  
A bit off topic but this whole post reminds me of THIS THIS story.

An official with the DHS was using the laser site on his Glock as a laser pointer during a presentation before some foreign dignitaries.  Bonus points for the fact that this agent was no long cleared for carrying a gun because he had had a stroke.
 
2014-07-31 02:13:41 PM  

jaybeezey: Teknowaffle: vernonFL: How many armed agents does the IRS need?

You'd think if they needed more than a guy serving court papers that they would coordinate with local law enforcement or some other agency.

Because people who are the most vehemently against taxes are the ones who tend to be the most pro-gun, and willing to use them.

Quick, name the one IRS agent who has been killed in the line of duty!

Michael Dillion

Now, described who killed him.

An ex-IRS employee.

Stop living in fear of something that doesn't happen.


FARK.  I had Vernon Hunter.  And "a suicidal asshole who flew an airplane into the IRS building"

Can I get partial credit at least?

The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration handled more than 1,200 threat and assault cases between 2001 and 2008, the Washington Post reported, resulting in numerous indictments and convictions.

Randy Nowak was sentenced to 30 years in federal prison for trying to hire a hit man to kill an IRS agent and torch the agency's Lakeland office

Jack Dowell, was sentenced to at least 30 years after he and a cohort were found guilty of a 1997 arson that destroyed IRS offices in Colorado Springs

A Rhode Island accountant has been convicted of threatening to kill an IRS agent, his child and rape and kill the agent's wife over a $330,000 tax bill

Threats to IRS agents have increased steadily in recent years

The federal government is investigating dozens of death threats to IRS employees that have been posted online since the House passed the health care bill
 
2014-07-31 02:13:56 PM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: The problem seems that your IRS is not about maximizing the return for the minimal amount of cost
It's all about exacting revenge on those who don't follow their precious rules.

I mean, doesn't it make more sense to keep a tax evader employed and garinsheeing the wages, rather than (1) fining him some figure that is impossible for him to ever obtain, then (2) sitcking him in jail where the cash flow becomes negative to the state and (3) good luck on him as an ex-congetting a job and providing more revenue for the state.

And the fact your IRS is now so "sacred" that they can carry weapons?

Really, your priorities are farked up


Awful lot of stupid assumptions there.
 
2014-07-31 02:14:13 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: Dancin_In_Anson: Maybe a couple billion more rounds of practice ammo are in order.

*sigh*


WOW.  How paranoid and delusional are right wingers when Breitbart is talking you down from your conspiracy theories.
 
2014-07-31 02:15:36 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Mithiwithi: When did the IRS get the last 70 million rounds?

Hell if I know. The article that was given to me was about DHS. However large or small the amount it seems to me like they could use some range time.


In that case, why did you bring up a billion rounds in the first place?
 
2014-07-31 02:18:31 PM  

mrmopar5287: vernonFL: How many armed agents does the IRS need?

You'd think if they needed more than a guy serving court papers that they would coordinate with local law enforcement or some other agency.

Local LE agencies typically don't care about penny-ante federal things that don't directly concern them.


Around here, the county sheriff's department will serve all kinds of process--civil or criminal--for a fee. I'm pretty sure that a federal agency can afford that fee. As a bonus, they already have their own guns.

I think that it doesn't happen more often because of the empire-building tendencies of government agencies, and of bureaucrats who don't want to pick up the phone and call some other agency for help when they can get more power and a bigger budget by hiring their own armed "special agents" and equipping them with surplus DOD military hardware.
 
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