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(IT World)   When Linus Torvalds curses, people listen   (itworld.com) divider line 83
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4046 clicks; posted to Geek » on 31 Jul 2014 at 4:24 PM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



83 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-07-31 03:40:46 PM  
Because his followup is snapping his blanket
 
2014-07-31 03:51:26 PM  
Great Pumpkin .... got nothing.
 
2014-07-31 04:33:37 PM  
If they can get the audio drivers to work.
 
2014-07-31 04:39:12 PM  
#include curses.h
 
2014-07-31 04:42:14 PM  
That guy knows how to deliver an ass reaming.
 
2014-07-31 04:45:27 PM  
"Lookie here, your compiler does some absolutely insane things with the spilling, including spilling a *constant*. For chrissake, that compiler shouldn't have been allowed to graduate from kindergarten. We're talking "sloth that was dropped on the head as a baby" level retardation levels here:"

That's where I lost it.

It may be because I'm having a frustrating day at work and needed a laugh, but whatever caused it, the sheer level of "How did you even manage to do that?" incredulity struck me as flat-out hilarious.
 
2014-07-31 04:46:01 PM  

barefoot in the head: If they can get the audio drivers to work.


^^^ THIS
 
2014-07-31 04:49:13 PM  

farbekrieg: #include curses.h


Done in four.
 
2014-07-31 04:52:27 PM  
And we lied, and we cheated, and we tested.
It was the easiest thing, the easiest thing to do..........
For the time, you'll be tested
forget about me, forget about me always loving you................
 
2014-07-31 04:56:40 PM  
Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?
 
2014-07-31 05:08:43 PM  

mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?


Totally.

All they need to fix is:

No real equivalent of Active Directory
No real equivalent of Group Policy
No standard ABI
No real support for real ACLs
No standard desktop environment
No decent/easy to configure file-sharing capability (Samba and NFS are NOT "decent")
No standard package format

But those problems are easy to fix! I mean, I know that they've had 20 years to fix them, but 2014 is they year! I mean, 2015! 2016 at the latest!
 
2014-07-31 05:25:02 PM  

mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?


I've got 3 Windows desktops in my house and at least 8 Linux computers (4 phones, 2 tablets, a router and my SmartTV).
 
2014-07-31 05:37:41 PM  

farkeruk: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

I've got 3 Windows desktops in my house and at least 8 Linux computers (4 phones, 2 tablets, a router and my SmartTV).


So 2014 is the year of Linux on the TV?
 
2014-07-31 05:43:33 PM  

mcreadyblue: farkeruk: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

I've got 3 Windows desktops in my house and at least 8 Linux computers (4 phones, 2 tablets, a router and my SmartTV).

So 2014 is the year of Linux on the TV?


N0, 2014 is the year of Linux everywhere people don't actually need to know they're dealing with Linux.

/I have 5 Linux computers, one of them a Pi
 
2014-07-31 05:49:11 PM  

czetie: mcreadyblue: farkeruk: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

I've got 3 Windows desktops in my house and at least 8 Linux computers (4 phones, 2 tablets, a router and my SmartTV).

So 2014 is the year of Linux on the TV?

N0, 2014 is the year of Linux everywhere people don't actually need to know they're dealing with Linux.

/I have 5 Linux computers, one of them a Pi


That sounds suspiciously like Windows.
 
2014-07-31 05:50:26 PM  

farkeruk: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

I've got 3 Windows desktops in my house and at least 8 Linux devices (4 phones, 2 tablets, a router and my SmartTV).

 
2014-07-31 06:02:31 PM  

realmolo: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

Totally.

All they need to fix is:

No real equivalent of Active Directory
No real equivalent of Group Policy
No standard ABI
No real support for real ACLs
No standard desktop environment
No decent/easy to configure file-sharing capability (Samba and NFS are NOT "decent")
No standard package format

But those problems are easy to fix! I mean, I know that they've had 20 years to fix them, but 2014 is they year! I mean, 2015! 2016 at the latest!


Or, you know, don't try to shove a square peg through a round hole and use Linux for the things it's good at.  The Linux desktop experience does suck. Inconsistent package managers, desktop environments user-land utilities and kernel version all make it inconsistent and prone to breaking.

The server distributions work well for the tings they are meant to do. Serve web applications, databases, file sharing (I disagree that the CIFS and NFS implementation is bad on Linux), DNS etc all work great. The linux kernel is also well suited for building embedded systems. Mobile devices, routers, firewalls, phone systems etc are commonly built around it, and work well.
 
2014-07-31 06:02:54 PM  

realmolo: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

Totally.

All they need to fix is:
.
.
No standard package format


But those problems are easy to fix! I mean, I know that they've had 20 years to fix them, but 2014 is they year! I mean, 2015! 2016 at the latest!


Source file tarballs including a 'make config' makefile have been a standard for decades.

/and dpkg has always worked better than windows update.   That's why InstallShield exists, (but its not a standard.)
 
wee
2014-07-31 06:09:42 PM  

barefoot in the head: If they can get the audio drivers to work.


"And you can't even plug in USB peripherals, either!"

Have any other 15 year old complaints you'd like to share?
 
2014-07-31 06:10:09 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: realmolo: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

Totally.

All they need to fix is:
.
.
No standard package format

But those problems are easy to fix! I mean, I know that they've had 20 years to fix them, but 2014 is they year! I mean, 2015! 2016 at the latest!

Source file tarballs including a 'make config' makefile have been a standard for decades.

/and dpkg has always worked better than windows update.   That's why InstallShield exists, (but its not a standard.)


.MSI is the standard Microsoft package

I would say Microsoft is getting their shiat together recently. Windows Server 2012 and associated products are pretty solid IMO. PowerShell 4+ and SCCM are legit system administration tools, SCCM handles server deployment and PowerShell hooks into all of their new serer products. C# and .net on IIS seems to be competitive stack with other web application frameworks. Microsoft now even  recommends the server core (non-GUI) as the preferred installation path for server 2012.

It's the licensing fees that are the major downside to all of this more than anything, IMHO.

// I'm pretty psyched about CentOS 7 and XenServer 6.2. The price is right with those, so that will be the future direction in the data center for me.
 
2014-07-31 06:12:28 PM  

wee: barefoot in the head: If they can get the audio drivers to work.

"And you can't even plug in USB peripherals, either!"

Have any other 15 year old complaints you'd like to share?


This new scrolling wheel mouse doesn't work, either. ARG!

/hehe
 
2014-07-31 06:15:45 PM  

realmolo: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

Totally.

All they need to fix is:

Blah blah blah...


Nope. Not biting. Please excuse me while I nuke some popcorn and wait for the resident Linux zealot to say something even more idiotic.
 
2014-07-31 06:25:37 PM  
Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.
 
2014-07-31 06:27:32 PM  

wee: barefoot in the head: If they can get the audio drivers to work.

"And you can't even plug in USB peripherals, either!"

Have any other 15 year old complaints you'd like to share?


My off-brand wireless card isn't supported!
Wait, that still happens.
 
2014-07-31 06:38:42 PM  

but whole: /and dpkg has always worked better than windows update. That's why InstallShield exists, (but its not a standard.)

.MSI is the standard Microsoft package


MSI doesn't check for cross package dependencies.  At least InstallShield can fork off another install if something is missing.

So yeah, I'm totally unimpressed with Microsoft 'standard' packages
 
2014-07-31 06:42:10 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.


I like Unity.

//I'm serious.
 
2014-07-31 06:50:11 PM  

farkeruk: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

I've got 3 Windows desktops in my house and at least 8 Linux computers (4 phones, 2 tablets, a router and my SmartTV).


So I guess not then.
 
2014-07-31 06:51:38 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.


Yep, choice is awesome. If Ubuntu proper blows, you can always go with Mint or any of the other distros that don't use Unity. It took me much too long to figure that out, so I used to be a whiner, but I'm over it now. I have a 5 year old Netbook that still rocks with Xubuntu.

Don't rag on Unity, just switch; it's better for your blood pressure.
 
2014-07-31 06:59:05 PM  
Did Linus Torvalds buy a security blanket at IKEA?
 
2014-07-31 06:59:56 PM  

SewerSquirrels: BumpInTheNight: Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.

Yep, choice is awesome. If Ubuntu proper blows, you can always go with Mint or any of the other distros that don't use Unity. It took me much too long to figure that out, so I used to be a whiner, but I'm over it now. I have a 5 year old Netbook that still rocks with Xubuntu.

Don't rag on Unity, just switch; it's better for your blood pressure.


Meh I continue to use windows 7 as my desktop.  I just always get annoyed when I walk into a VM some user built and its a Unity interface, I go confirm sshd is running then carry on my day using the best interface for linux ever made:  the command line via putty.

/my tune may change one day if I'm ever at a job that doesn't pay for my MSDN access
 
2014-07-31 07:03:53 PM  

BumpInTheNight: SewerSquirrels: BumpInTheNight: Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.

Yep, choice is awesome. If Ubuntu proper blows, you can always go with Mint or any of the other distros that don't use Unity. It took me much too long to figure that out, so I used to be a whiner, but I'm over it now. I have a 5 year old Netbook that still rocks with Xubuntu.

Don't rag on Unity, just switch; it's better for your blood pressure.

Meh I continue to use windows 7 as my desktop.  I just always get annoyed when I walk into a VM some user built and its a Unity interface, I go confirm sshd is running then carry on my day using the best interface for linux ever made:  the command line via putty.

/my tune may change one day if I'm ever at a job that doesn't pay for my MSDN access


Or you could use ctrl+alt+f2 to switch tty lines to get CLI on the console window on machines running some stupid desktop. Works on VM or physical machines. (ctrl+alt+f1 through f8 will switch between the virtual tty devices. tty1 is usually the GUI if there is one).
 
2014-07-31 07:11:10 PM  

BumpInTheNight: SewerSquirrels: BumpInTheNight: Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.

Yep, choice is awesome. If Ubuntu proper blows, you can always go with Mint or any of the other distros that don't use Unity. It took me much too long to figure that out, so I used to be a whiner, but I'm over it now. I have a 5 year old Netbook that still rocks with Xubuntu.

Don't rag on Unity, just switch; it's better for your blood pressure.

Meh I continue to use windows 7 as my desktop.  I just always get annoyed when I walk into a VM some user built and its a Unity interface, I go confirm sshd is running then carry on my day using the best interface for linux ever made:  the command line via putty.

/my tune may change one day if I'm ever at a job that doesn't pay for my MSDN access


I'm actually surprised more companies aren't migrating away from MS after the "demise"1 of XP. Sure the transition would be difficult, but you're already forced to upgrade.

1 Currently running XP on two isolated boxes in my cube due to legacy software.
 
2014-07-31 07:12:55 PM  

but whole: BumpInTheNight: SewerSquirrels: BumpInTheNight: Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.

Yep, choice is awesome. If Ubuntu proper blows, you can always go with Mint or any of the other distros that don't use Unity. It took me much too long to figure that out, so I used to be a whiner, but I'm over it now. I have a 5 year old Netbook that still rocks with Xubuntu.

Don't rag on Unity, just switch; it's better for your blood pressure.

Meh I continue to use windows 7 as my desktop.  I just always get annoyed when I walk into a VM some user built and its a Unity interface, I go confirm sshd is running then carry on my day using the best interface for linux ever made:  the command line via putty.

/my tune may change one day if I'm ever at a job that doesn't pay for my MSDN access

Or you could use ctrl+alt+f2 to switch tty lines to get CLI on the console window on machines running some stupid desktop. Works on VM or physical machines. (ctrl+alt+f1 through f8 will switch between the virtual tty devices. tty1 is usually the GUI if there is one).


What's the key combo to cut & paste once you're there?
 
2014-07-31 07:18:48 PM  

BumpInTheNight: but whole: BumpInTheNight: SewerSquirrels: BumpInTheNight: Has anyone ragged on Ubuntu's Unity interface yet?  Because no linux thread is complete without bringing up that dog shiat.

Yep, choice is awesome. If Ubuntu proper blows, you can always go with Mint or any of the other distros that don't use Unity. It took me much too long to figure that out, so I used to be a whiner, but I'm over it now. I have a 5 year old Netbook that still rocks with Xubuntu.

Don't rag on Unity, just switch; it's better for your blood pressure.

Meh I continue to use windows 7 as my desktop.  I just always get annoyed when I walk into a VM some user built and its a Unity interface, I go confirm sshd is running then carry on my day using the best interface for linux ever made:  the command line via putty.

/my tune may change one day if I'm ever at a job that doesn't pay for my MSDN access

Or you could use ctrl+alt+f2 to switch tty lines to get CLI on the console window on machines running some stupid desktop. Works on VM or physical machines. (ctrl+alt+f1 through f8 will switch between the virtual tty devices. tty1 is usually the GUI if there is one).

What's the key combo to cut & paste once you're there?


From the bash shell... nothing! It's a useful trick for a quick command or two (piping to less is your friend here). If you need to edit a config file, yy the p for a quick yank and paste in vi. Anything more than that, putty is the better choice

// Love putty... dat copy by selecting and pasting by right click ftw! this should be on everything.
// putty's version of sftp and scp are pretty sweet too. First thing I do on a windows box is to  download the OpenSSH client, putty sftp and scp and add them to my path. This makes CLI so much better on windows
 
2014-07-31 07:20:48 PM  

SewerSquirrels: I'm actually surprised more companies aren't migrating away from MS after the "demise"1 of XP. Sure the transition would be difficult, but you're already forced to upgrade.

1 Currently running XP on two isolated boxes in my cube due to legacy software.


Active Directory->Exchange->Outlook->the god damn calendar tab.  That's your battle for the linux desktop right there.
 
2014-07-31 07:23:02 PM  

but whole: yy the p for a quick yank and paste in vi


oops, I meant:

yythen  p for a quick yank and paste in vi.

This copies the current line, then pastes it on the line below the curser.

I don't know most vi commands, but copying+pasting, finding and replacing are worth learning.
 
2014-07-31 07:24:53 PM  

BumpInTheNight: SewerSquirrels: I'm actually surprised more companies aren't migrating away from MS after the "demise"1 of XP. Sure the transition would be difficult, but you're already forced to upgrade.

1 Currently running XP on two isolated boxes in my cube due to legacy software.

Active Directory->Exchange->Outlook->the god damn calendar tab.  That's your battle for the linux desktop right there.


While not quite as slick, Mozilla Thunderbird+the Lightening plugin on the client side with Postfix+CalDAV on the server side works as a decent replacement.
 
2014-07-31 07:34:21 PM  

but whole: [...]The Linux desktop experience does suck. Inconsistent package managers, desktop environments user-land utilities and kernel version all make it inconsistent and prone to breaking.


How does the fact that someone else's computer uses a different package manager, desktop environment, utilities and kernel make my computer "inconsistent and prone to breaking" exactly? Never understood exactly what argument that's even trying to be.
 
2014-07-31 07:43:06 PM  
Using Linux software is like going to a dollar store and trying to buy name brand stuff only to be told the off brand stuff is "just as good". Most desktop users are lazy, stupid, or a combination of the two. They don't want to research other things that might work as well or better, they don't want to have to read an article on how to install a program, They don't want to spend hours looking for a workaround to get that _____ that worked fine on their old Windows computer to work at all, and they certainly don't want the responsibility of managing their computer security like a big boy thrust on them.

Linux is fine for people who know about computers, and who are OK without using some open source version of software that doesn't have quite the same features, doesn't work quite as well, and looks just a few years out of date compared to the Windows version of something. Open/Libre Office are perfect examples. You can shout all day that it does all the same stuff (not really, almost doesn't count) and that it should be good enough, but there are plenty of people who don't want to use some engineering students project software when they could be using something from Adobe, MS, Apple, etc.

The "year of the Linux Desktop" has a lot of things in its way that others mentioned. But I would say that user comfort is pretty damn close to the top of the list. Until users with zero training, knowledge and desire to acquire either can just sit down and use a Linux desktop, they're not gonna use it at all. And telling them all about stability, clean code, open source ethics, and how well it can run a server is going to mean jack shiat when they can't even get their wireless mouse to work right and they can't type a paper without using a program that looks like it was last updated in 1995.
 
2014-07-31 07:44:54 PM  

BumpInTheNight: What's the key combo to cut & paste once you're there?


Shift + insert pastes.
 
2014-07-31 08:01:52 PM  

taurusowner: Using Linux software is like going to a dollar store and trying to buy name brand stuff only to be told the off brand stuff is "just as good". Most desktop users are lazy, stupid, or a combination of the two. They don't want to research other things that might work as well or better, they don't want to have to read an article on how to install a program, They don't want to spend hours looking for a workaround to get that _____ that worked fine on their old Windows computer to work at all, and they certainly don't want the responsibility of managing their computer security like a big boy thrust on them.


Windows doesn't manage your computer security for you any better than a well-chosen Linux distro. In fact it usually does worse; Linux tends to have almost every program in the package manager so auto-update can update everything, not just the OS and then relying on every program to have their own auto-update functionality work correctly.

See my final paragraph for my comments on the part before that.

Linux is fine for people who know about computers, and who are OK without using some open source version of software that doesn't have quite the same features, doesn't work quite as well, and looks just a few years out of date compared to the Windows version of something. Open/Libre Office are perfect examples. You can shout all day that it does all the same stuff (not really, almost doesn't count) and that it should be good enough, but there are plenty of people who don't want to use some engineering students project software when they could be using something from Adobe, MS, Apple, etc.

That's a pretty lame characterization of Libre Office. It works and looks fine for 99% of people who use it. The 1% power users, well they'll just have to use whatever other specific software has the features they really need. I've personally put Libre Office on every PC my family uses, I've never had any of them complain or make any notice at all. And yes, they'd complain if they didn't like it, most of them delight in complaining as much as possible.

The "year of the Linux Desktop" has a lot of things in its way that others mentioned. But I would say that user comfort is pretty damn close to the top of the list. Until users with zero training, knowledge and desire to acquire either can just sit down and use a Linux desktop, they're not gonna use it at all. And telling them all about stability, clean code, open source ethics, and how well it can run a server is going to mean jack shiat when they can't even get their wireless mouse to work right and they can't type a paper without using a program that looks like it was last updated in 1995.

The sole reason that Windows or Mac have an advantage there is that people are already familiar with them. Linux is not fundamentally harder to use or install. Wireless mouse, really? I've used at least four, none of them had even the slightest problem on Linux or required any setup at all in fact.
 
2014-07-31 08:04:12 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Or you could use ctrl+alt+f2 to switch tty lines to get CLI on the console window on machines running some stupid desktop. Works on VM or physical machines. (ctrl+alt+f1 through f8 will switch between the virtual tty devices. tty1 is usually the GUI if there is one).

What's the key combo to cut & paste once you're there?


display what you want to 'cut' on console 1

So switch to console 2 with ctrl-alt-f2

on a shell there, type "setterm -dump 1 -file /tmp/screen.dump"

Use an editor on /tmp/screen.dump.  Delete what you don't want.

Open your pasting target document, import the /tmp/screen.dump where you want it pasted

/There were mouse on text mode solutions too, but you wanted keys
//on vt100s there was an escape code to dump the screen.  you could grab stuff with that too.
///the cool thing was to send text to the sysop's console to clear screen, display a list of evil commands, then the dump screen code.  Worked like the sysop entered the evil commands
 
2014-07-31 08:08:51 PM  

taurusowner: Using Linux software is like going to a dollar store and trying to buy name brand stuff only to be told the off brand stuff is "just as good". Most desktop users are lazy, stupid, or a combination of the two. They don't want to research other things that might work as well or better, they don't want to have to read an article on how to install a program, They don't want to spend hours looking for a workaround to get that _____ that worked fine on their old Windows computer to work at all, and they certainly don't want the responsibility of managing their computer security like a big boy thrust on them.


Not wanting to fuss around with computers is why everyone's switching to tablets to do minor day-to-day crap.  And because everyone's switching to tablets, Microsoft is comfortable foisting the unwieldy Windows 8 hybrid OS on all its users as much as they can get away with.

The desktop is irrelevant.
 
2014-07-31 08:18:37 PM  

lemurs: taurusowner: Using Linux software is like going to a dollar store and trying to buy name brand stuff only to be told the off brand stuff is "just as good". Most desktop users are lazy, stupid, or a combination of the two. They don't want to research other things that might work as well or better, they don't want to have to read an article on how to install a program, They don't want to spend hours looking for a workaround to get that _____ that worked fine on their old Windows computer to work at all, and they certainly don't want the responsibility of managing their computer security like a big boy thrust on them.

Not wanting to fuss around with computers is why everyone's switching to tablets to do minor day-to-day crap.  And because everyone's switching to tablets, Microsoft is comfortable foisting the unwieldy Windows 8 hybrid OS on all its users as much as they can get away with.

The desktop is irrelevant.


Everyone hates Windows 8, and that's a big part of the reason why. Microsoft misreading reality yet again isn't proof that desktop is irrelevant. Desktops aren't going anywhere.
 
2014-07-31 08:20:19 PM  

SewerSquirrels: Yep, choice is awesome. If Ubuntu proper blows, you can always go with Mint or any of the other distros that don't use Unity. It took me much too long to figure that out, so I used to be a whiner, but I'm over it now. I have a 5 year old Netbook that still rocks with Xubuntu.


I ended up on Xubuntu as well.

Tried Mint and some other distro first.
 
2014-07-31 08:22:16 PM  
Also, this is tame on the cursing for a Linus rant.
 
2014-07-31 08:22:28 PM  

but whole: file sharing (I disagree that the CIFS and NFS implementation is bad on Linux)


I wouldn't say it's bad, but it's not ideal. And depending on your implementation you can take a real performance hit compared to file systems mounted over NFS.
 
2014-07-31 08:29:57 PM  
People listen because he's Linus Torvalds.  They miss the part where he would probably get even more people listening if he wasn't such an insufferable jerk about it.  So many not-nearly-as-good engineers out there who put the cart before the horse and think being a dick somehow makes you Linus Torvalds, when in most professional contexts it gets you sidelined and ignored.  Like all the executives suddenly trying to emulate Steve Jobs' famously dickish behavior to his subordinates without realizing it only works when you already have a successful track record, and often not even then.
 
2014-07-31 08:32:17 PM  

realmolo: mcreadyblue: Is 2014 finally the Year of Linux on the Desktop?

Totally.

All they need to fix is:

No real equivalent of Active Directory
No real equivalent of Group Policy
No standard ABI
No real support for real ACLs
No standard desktop environment
No decent/easy to configure file-sharing capability (Samba and NFS are NOT "decent")
No standard package format


To a corporate IT support monkey, these are serious deficiencies.
 
2014-07-31 08:40:29 PM  
I always thought the asterisk in *nix made it look like somebody was swearing.
 
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