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(ESPN)   Will David Ortiz be the first steroid user to be voted into the Hall of Fame?   (espn.go.com ) divider line
    More: Unlikely, White Sox, Red Sox, steroid era, Teflon, David Ortiz, Chris Archer, Carl Yastrzemski, Jose Canseco  
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863 clicks; posted to Sports » on 30 Jul 2014 at 1:58 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-30 11:55:45 AM  
No. I'm going with Nolan Ryan.
 
2014-07-30 12:42:01 PM  
Considering how long steroids have been in use, I would suppose that barrier has already been broken.
 
2014-07-30 01:11:05 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Considering how long steroids have been in use, I would suppose that barrier has already been broken.


I'd be surprised if it hasn't.
 
2014-07-30 01:51:28 PM  
Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?
 
2014-07-30 01:52:52 PM  

SilentStrider: Marcus Aurelius: Considering how long steroids have been in use, I would suppose that barrier has already been broken.

I'd be surprised if it hasn't.


I'm awaiting the inevitable handwringing by the voters when the first HOF steroid user is outed.
 
2014-07-30 02:03:09 PM  
What time did you murder the victim?
 
2014-07-30 02:07:28 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


He's a well known player on a big market team.
 
2014-07-30 02:08:55 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


This.

Also a douche.
 
2014-07-30 02:11:03 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


Because reasons, duh
 
2014-07-30 02:13:48 PM  

dascott: What time did you murder the victim?


Well, he did appear on the 2003 list of failed drug tests (same list as A-Rod, Bonds, Sosa, amongst other confirmed users), so he is incredibly likely guilty. Outside of Red Sox fans, I haven't seen or met anyone who thinks he isn't guilty.
 
2014-07-30 02:13:55 PM  
If they're going to use the DH to keep out Edgar Martinez, wouldn't they have to do it for Ortiz as well? Especially since Edgar was a better player.
 
2014-07-30 02:14:29 PM  

inclemency: Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

This.

Also a douche.


Which is also why you will not be in the HOF.  What are you six?
 
2014-07-30 02:14:29 PM  
Does anybody know if ousting somebody from the Hall of Fame is possible?  Is an induction permanent, or can a member be expelled? Like, if it was revealed that player was secretly a serial killer, or a child molester - somebody you really, really wouldn't want to honor.

I ask because if steroid use was going to be a hard line for not letting players in, then it does stand to reason that any previous inductee proven to have used should get tossed. If there is no process for getting rid of inductees, then the voters would create a huge controversy by letting one in, thus opening the doors to let in others, as well as doing a disservice to other players who might have gotten in before the opinions on steroid use softened.

That said, as long as the voters are consistent I don't care if it's all or none. Preferably none though - better not to be remembered than remembered as a cheater.
 
2014-07-30 02:16:47 PM  

idesofmarch: Does anybody know if ousting somebody from the Hall of Fame is possible?  Is an induction permanent, or can a member be expelled? Like, if it was revealed that player was secretly a serial killer, or a child molester - somebody you really, really wouldn't want to honor.

slicethelife.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-07-30 02:17:29 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


Because Boston.
 
2014-07-30 02:18:37 PM  

idesofmarch: Does anybody know if ousting somebody from the Hall of Fame is possible?  Is an induction permanent, or can a member be expelled? Like, if it was revealed that player was secretly a serial killer, or a child molester - somebody you really, really wouldn't want to honor.

I ask because if steroid use was going to be a hard line for not letting players in, then it does stand to reason that any previous inductee proven to have used should get tossed. If there is no process for getting rid of inductees, then the voters would create a huge controversy by letting one in, thus opening the doors to let in others, as well as doing a disservice to other players who might have gotten in before the opinions on steroid use softened.

That said, as long as the voters are consistent I don't care if it's all or none. Preferably none though - better not to be remembered than remembered as a cheater.


I doubt it. If one did enough investigation, I would imagine the majority of players from the 60s on were on some kind of steroid or testosterone.

There are stories of Mickey Mantle missing a game in 1961 due to an abscess formed from injecting himself with testosterone. Guys have been using PEDs for a long time; greenies were popped like candy before 1990. Ruth was coked off his ass for energy. Gaylord Perry admitted to using a spitball. Basically, players are gonna cheat. It's like professional wrestling in that regard
 
2014-07-30 02:20:00 PM  

robertus: idesofmarch: Does anybody know if ousting somebody from the Hall of Fame is possible?  Is an induction permanent, or can a member be expelled? Like, if it was revealed that player was secretly a serial killer, or a child molester - somebody you really, really wouldn't want to honor.
[slicethelife.files.wordpress.com image 470x627]


Yikes - but is it that they can't get rid of him, or won't? Frankly, when it comes to the quality of character of its players, the NFL doesn't have much in the way of standards.
 
2014-07-30 02:20:03 PM  
Poorly worded question. Mitchell report does not equal an equivalent accusation of an actual steroid user like Braun or peralta (random examples)
 
2014-07-30 02:20:37 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


Hall of Fame not Hall of Stats
 
2014-07-30 02:21:51 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Considering how long steroids have been in use, I would suppose that barrier has already been broken.


Okay, rephrased then. Will be be the first steroid user KNOWINGLY voted into the Hall of Fame?
 
2014-07-30 02:21:53 PM  
I would be shocked if Ripken never took a cortizone shot. But then again for whatever reason that does not get classified as a steroid in professional sports.
 
2014-07-30 02:21:56 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


Isn't it obvious? Ortiz is a clutch player, it's not about the quantity of hits but the quality.  Jeez guys, c'mon.  Also, he's been tested routinely since drug testing began and has yet to appear on another list, they never said what he failed for...must have been poppy seeds.  Big Poppy seeds.
 
2014-07-30 02:22:43 PM  

thecpt: Poorly worded question. Mitchell report does not equal an equivalent accusation of an actual steroid user like Braun or peralta (random examples)


Mitchell Report didn't name Ortiz (or any other Red Sox) since Senator Mitchell was on the board of directors for the Red Sox.

However, one has to wonder about the accuracy of that report considering Manny and Ortiz were both on the infamous 2003 list.

But yes, Ortiz was on a failed PED test in 2003. He sure as fark didn't test positive for cookies; he is guilty.
 
2014-07-30 02:23:00 PM  
Cal Ripken Jr's already in
 
2014-07-30 02:23:49 PM  

machoprogrammer: I doubt it. If one did enough investigation, I would imagine the majority of players from the 60s on were on some kind of steroid or testosterone.


Yeah, no question. Of course, I don't know what investigation you can do really - isn't proving a past player was on steroids basically impossible? What are you going to test? So unless one willingly confesses (and hell freezes over) we're never really gonna know. Just have to guess.
 
2014-07-30 02:24:33 PM  
machoprogrammer:

There are stories of Mickey Mantle missing a game in 1961 due to an abscess formed from injecting himself with testosterone. Guys have been using PEDs for a long time; greenies were popped like candy before 1990. Ruth was coked off his ass for energy. Gaylord Perry admitted to using a spitball. Basically, players are gonna cheat. It's like professional wrestling in that regard

I'm gonna need some corroboration on that accusation.
 
2014-07-30 02:26:32 PM  

idesofmarch: machoprogrammer: I doubt it. If one did enough investigation, I would imagine the majority of players from the 60s on were on some kind of steroid or testosterone.

Yeah, no question. Of course, I don't know what investigation you can do really - isn't proving a past player was on steroids basically impossible? What are you going to test? So unless one willingly confesses (and hell freezes over) we're never really gonna know. Just have to guess.


Yeah, I think without interviewing fellow players (assuming they would squeel), good luck getting proof.

But since steroids have been used in athletics since the 50s and there are stories of them being used in baseball in the 60s and 70s, I wouldn't be shocked at all. Few people knew what steroids were back then, so it was a lot easier to not get caught using them. Hell, they might've gotten them and told they were "vitamins" by a trainer or coach.

I remember a story that Aaron thought players using vitamins was cheating. What if said vitamins were actually steroids, but claimed to be vitamins (or vitamins spiked with steroids)?
 
2014-07-30 02:27:08 PM  

Mateorocks: machoprogrammer:

There are stories of Mickey Mantle missing a game in 1961 due to an abscess formed from injecting himself with testosterone. Guys have been using PEDs for a long time; greenies were popped like candy before 1990. Ruth was coked off his ass for energy. Gaylord Perry admitted to using a spitball. Basically, players are gonna cheat. It's like professional wrestling in that regard

I'm gonna need some corroboration on that accusation.


At work, but I will get it when I get home. Not going to google "Babe Ruth cocaine" at work :)
 
2014-07-30 02:27:37 PM  

doubled99: Cal Ripken Jr's already in


Imagine if they didn't cut the power at the stadium and cancel the game on the fateful day he chased Kevin Costner out of his house. The streak ends that day, and with no streak there's no Hall of Fame.
 
2014-07-30 02:28:02 PM  

idesofmarch: robertus: idesofmarch: Does anybody know if ousting somebody from the Hall of Fame is possible?  Is an induction permanent, or can a member be expelled? Like, if it was revealed that player was secretly a serial killer, or a child molester - somebody you really, really wouldn't want to honor.
[slicethelife.files.wordpress.com image 470x627]

Yikes - but is it that they can't get rid of him, or won't? Frankly, when it comes to the quality of character of its players, the NFL doesn't have much in the way of standards.


I don't think there's anything saying they *can't* get rid of him (I mean, they make their rules), but they tend to fall back on the "well, it's all about his playing time and on-the-field accomplishments and era" thing.
 
2014-07-30 02:28:40 PM  

machoprogrammer: Mateorocks: machoprogrammer:

There are stories of Mickey Mantle missing a game in 1961 due to an abscess formed from injecting himself with testosterone. Guys have been using PEDs for a long time; greenies were popped like candy before 1990. Ruth was coked off his ass for energy. Gaylord Perry admitted to using a spitball. Basically, players are gonna cheat. It's like professional wrestling in that regard

I'm gonna need some corroboration on that accusation.

At work, but I will get it when I get home. Not going to google "Babe Ruth cocaine" at work :)


At the time, I believe cocaine was completely uncontrolled
 
2014-07-30 02:28:48 PM  

robertus: idesofmarch: robertus: idesofmarch: Does anybody know if ousting somebody from the Hall of Fame is possible?  Is an induction permanent, or can a member be expelled? Like, if it was revealed that player was secretly a serial killer, or a child molester - somebody you really, really wouldn't want to honor.
[slicethelife.files.wordpress.com image 470x627]

Yikes - but is it that they can't get rid of him, or won't? Frankly, when it comes to the quality of character of its players, the NFL doesn't have much in the way of standards.

I don't think there's anything saying they *can't* get rid of him (I mean, they make their rules), but they tend to fall back on the "well, it's all about his playing time and on-the-field accomplishments and era" thing.


IIRC, Benoit is still in the wrestling hall of fame (not WWE, but wrestling)
 
2014-07-30 02:29:37 PM  

Lost Thought 00: machoprogrammer: Mateorocks: machoprogrammer:

There are stories of Mickey Mantle missing a game in 1961 due to an abscess formed from injecting himself with testosterone. Guys have been using PEDs for a long time; greenies were popped like candy before 1990. Ruth was coked off his ass for energy. Gaylord Perry admitted to using a spitball. Basically, players are gonna cheat. It's like professional wrestling in that regard

I'm gonna need some corroboration on that accusation.

At work, but I will get it when I get home. Not going to google "Babe Ruth cocaine" at work :)

At the time, I believe cocaine was completely uncontrolled


It was, but it would still be considered banned by now days standards. Same with steroids in the 60s, 70s and part of the 80s (IIRC, they weren't illegal til the late 80s).
 
2014-07-30 02:30:42 PM  

idesofmarch: Does anybody know if ousting somebody from the Hall of Fame is possible?  Is an induction permanent, or can a member be expelled? Like, if it was revealed that player was secretly a serial killer, or a child molester - somebody you really, really wouldn't want to honor.

I ask because if steroid use was going to be a hard line for not letting players in, then it does stand to reason that any previous inductee proven to have used should get tossed. If there is no process for getting rid of inductees, then the voters would create a huge controversy by letting one in, thus opening the doors to let in others, as well as doing a disservice to other players who might have gotten in before the opinions on steroid use softened.

That said, as long as the voters are consistent I don't care if it's all or none. Preferably none though - better not to be remembered than remembered as a cheater.


It's only happened in the Hockey Hall of Fame once, maybe twice depending on how you look at it. Gil Stein was, ahem, 'inducted' in 1993, but "turned it down" once it came out that he manipulated the selection committee to get himself inducted. Alan Eagleson was inducted in 1989, but in 1998 he pled guilty to mail fraud and embezzling from the NHLPA pension fund. And the Hall of Fame wasn't even going to get involved in the Eagleson matter until 19 other Hall of Fame members- including Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull- threatened to resign from the Hall themselves unless Eagleson was chucked. He resigned before he could be expelled.

Nobody else has ever been tossed from a Big 4 hall of fame. But that's about what it would take: something that damages the integrity not just of the game, but of the hall itself. You have to launch a direct attack on the building.
 
2014-07-30 02:32:52 PM  

machoprogrammer: dascott: What time did you murder the victim?

Well, he did appear on the 2003 list of failed drug tests (same list as A-Rod, Bonds, Sosa, amongst other confirmed users), so he is incredibly likely guilty. Outside of Red Sox fans, I haven't seen or met anyone who thinks he isn't guilty.


But look at him.  He obviously just loves muffins.
 
2014-07-30 02:34:56 PM  

mikaloyd: Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

Hall of Fame not Hall of Stats


By that logic, NASCAR should induct Junior and Danica into their HoF.
 
2014-07-30 02:39:18 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


You realize that three players, in all of baseball history, have over 2,000 RBI?  Three.

The locks are generally assumed to be 3,000 hits, 500 hr, or 1,500 RBI.  Milestones based on round-looking numbers are kind of dumb, and there are some guys over 1,500 who aren't or won't get in (Harold Baines is over 1,600), but those are the locks that are talked about.  2,000 would be silly.

PEDs aside, I'm okay with Ortiz going in (Edgar should go first, but in the hilariously dumb counting-stat world, Edgar's hurt by all his walks).  A DH may not be as valuable as a position player, but he's still a player, and if you're one of the best at your position, you go in.  Same argument holds for relief pitchers.  And punters (Ray Guy is finally getting the nod).

Ortiz is more likely than Manny, given Manny's suspension.  And some hitter from the 2000s Red Sox should be in, given the historical turnaround of the franchise.  And it's not like Ortiz's numbers are bad.
 
2014-07-30 02:39:57 PM  

Madewithrealbitsofpanther: I would be shocked if Ripken never took a cortizone shot. But then again for whatever reason that does not get classified as a steroid in professional sports.


Cortisone (Cortizone is an anti itch cream) is a corticosteroid. It's an anti- inflamatory, not a muscle builder. Anabolic steroids, which are synthetic derivatives of testostarone, are what you would take to build muscle. They're related but very different chemicals.
 
2014-07-30 02:40:26 PM  

machoprogrammer: At work, but I will get it when I get home. Not going to google "Babe Ruth cocaine" at work :)


Do you work at the Leftorium?
 
2014-07-30 02:42:10 PM  
RBI and wins, most useful HOF benchmarks.

/oh god THAT discussion!  *flies away*
 
2014-07-30 02:42:12 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: mikaloyd: Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

Hall of Fame not Hall of Stats

By that logic, NASCAR should induct Junior and Danica into their HoF.


You never know, they might. NASCAR hall of fame is so new though that there are a lot of deserving people from years and decades gone by who, eventually, will make it in. They have a logjam of deserving people outside looking in for the next ten or twenty years before they ever have to start thinking about letting in marginals
 
2014-07-30 02:42:23 PM  

Mercutio74: machoprogrammer: At work, but I will get it when I get home. Not going to google "Babe Ruth cocaine" at work :)

Do you work at the Leftorium?


I do but Flanders is making me work late so he can go skiing. Stupid sexy Flanders
 
2014-07-30 02:44:48 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


Because he's so DREEEEEEEEAMY AND CUTE!!!! Oh, wait, that's the other undeserving AL East superstar who'll be in the HOF for being famous.

inktothepeople.com
 
2014-07-30 02:46:28 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: mikaloyd: Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

Hall of Fame not Hall of Stats

By that logic, NASCAR should induct Junior and Danica into their HoF.


If Danica wins one single race ever, doesn't matter when or how she does it, she's probably getting in the same way Wendell Scott got in.
 
2014-07-30 02:54:52 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Not a position player. Not in the 3,000 hits club. Not in the 500 homer club. Career batting average under .300. Well under 2,000 career RBIs. Why does he deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?


He'll most likely get to 500 HR, given that he's still productive and only 44 away. Still, his numbers leave him a little short. He's not on par with Edgar, for example. His career WAR (if you buy into WAR) will likely finish at or around 50. 55-60 is historically where you have to get to to have better than even odds of getting in.
He will get in, though, because he's been the face of the Red Sox through three World Series. He sealed that one by throwing up a 1.200 OPS in the playoffs last year and basically carrying the team to a championship.
I think he's pretty borderline, and probably wouldn't vote for him, but I'd bet money he'll get in, and he'll be far from the worst player to do so.
 
2014-07-30 02:55:16 PM  
The Hall of Fame is stupid enough without having to first decide if everyone who played since the late 80s did steroids or not. Who cares? Look at their numbers as compared to their peers.
 
2014-07-30 02:59:05 PM  

machoprogrammer: I would imagine the majority of players from the 60s on were on some kind of steroid or testosterone


I never saw Steve Carlton pitch a game where he was not speeding his titties off.
 
2014-07-30 02:59:26 PM  

EyeballKid: Because he's so DREEEEEEEEAMY AND CUTE!!!! Oh, wait, that's the other undeserving AL East superstar who'll be in the HOF for being famous.


Career bWAR:
Derek Jeter: 72.3
David Ortiz: 46.3

Slight difference in career accomplishments.

It's easy to make a case that Derek Jeter is one of the five greatest shortstops (*) of all time, and he's definitely in any top 10.  You can't make that kind of argument for David Ortiz even if you credit him as a  1B.

(*) He was actually bad at being a shortstop, but good at every other aspect of the game, and a bad defensive shortstop still gets more credit than a bad defensive 1B.  Wagner, Vaughan, Ripken, and Banks have a leg up on Jeter, but he's a good pick for #5.
 
2014-07-30 03:00:13 PM  

Dafatone: it's not like Ortiz's numbers are bad.


No, it's not that his numbers are bad. It's just that they aren't what I would consider Hall of Fame worthy. If David Ortiz had the exact same numbers, but gone from the Twins to Kansas City, instead of Boston, nobody would be saying that he's a Hall of Famer.
 
2014-07-30 03:00:45 PM  

chimp_ninja: It's easy to make a case that Derek Jeter is one of the five greatest shortstops (*) of all time


chimp_ninja: He was actually bad at being a shortstop, but

 
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