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(News On 6 Tulsa)   Old and busted: Online diploma mills. New hotness: Online service animal certification mills, so that you can take your pet with you anywhere, and due to regulations, nobody is allowed to question the validity   (newson6.com) divider line 137
    More: Asinine  
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5032 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jul 2014 at 1:02 AM (11 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-30 02:23:47 AM  
I'm waiting for someone to suffer a severe allergic reaction to a service pet then sue under the ADA for the business not accommodating their medical condition because they had to allow service animals thanks to the ADA

/legitimate service animals for blind people should obviously be allowed.
// therapy pets are bullshiat and those people should be arrested for abusing the system
 
TWX
2014-07-30 02:27:02 AM  

Kensey: Lumber Jack Off: CasperImproved: lewismarktwo: You aren't even allowed to ask for the certification so it's pretty pointless either way.

And how do you know this?

it's SOP for most places. I've worked at a couple of large retailers and that was always one of the first things they told us n00bs on the first day of orientation.

It's not just SOP, it's the law.  Originally it was allowed to ask three questions.  Recently the law was amended to only allow two of the three -- "Does this animal help you with a disability?" and "How?" (the no-longer-permissible question is "Do you have a disability?")

The law explicitly does not require (or permit anyone else to require) the owner to show any paperwork, provide any information, or take any action other than answering the two (formerly three) permissible questions, precisely to avoid any possibility of harassment.  (E.g. making the animal perform some feat, loudly nitpicking paperwork, etc.)  I believe federal law also explicitly says an animal is not required to be indicated, marked or tagged in any way as a service animal, for the same reason.

(I have a friend whose wife has hearing problems, and has a hearing dog -- they deal with all this regularly.)


Would licensing her as the patient, with state-issue ID and everything, help? If she drives or expects to purchase alcohol then she's already used to carrying ID; would presenting a durable plastic card as her license for her service animal when challenged solve it more easily than the current situation?
 
2014-07-30 02:28:28 AM  

Warlordtrooper: I'm waiting for someone to suffer a severe allergic reaction to a service pet then sue under the ADA for the business not accommodating their medical condition because they had to allow service animals thanks to the ADA

/legitimate service animals for blind people should obviously be allowed.
// therapy pets are bullshiat and those people should be arrested for abusing the system


Hear, hear!

I love my cat, and I'd take him everywhere if could... without being a selfish, entitled douche to everyone who doesn't feel the same way.

If the animal really can detect an incipient seizure, ok.
 
2014-07-30 02:29:12 AM  
To demonstrate the validity of diploma mills, pet certificates, and that diploma hanging on your "alternative" therapist's office wall I obtained a BA in Reiki for Charlie, the smartest and most deserving of our cats.

The diploma is in the name of Charlie LeChat. It cost nothing and took very little time thanks to Thunderwood College's  online programs which can be completed in just seconds. And they are cat friendly.
 
2014-07-30 02:37:49 AM  
My name is Bob Wiley and this is Gil.
/Baby steps.
 
2014-07-30 02:42:40 AM  

Jim_Callahan: tjsands1118: 
ski9600: Speaking of people, why don't we have "service people"?  Companions/youngers?

Actually, this is a pretty funny idea.  Technically, your annoying bratty kid that won't shut up is an animal, someone should get their two-year-old classed as a service animal and troll restaurant owners that try to kick them out, bar owners that ban children, etc.

Bonus points if they go with the comfort ani ...


No, I'm thinking of older persons (like 18-50YO) that could be employed and paid to be a companion for someone in the >65 range.  Arrange cleaning, shopping, make sure the bills are paid, hang out with them and the like.  So, for an older person maybe there's a government sponsored place where his or her family can go to hire someone like this.  Maybe someone that needs a jorb and would even live with this elder in a spare bedroom or whatever.  Someone that might need work and a place to stay, but won't be breaking laws.

/It's probably too much to ask.
 
2014-07-30 02:46:45 AM  
'Yes, i need my seabass with me at all times to pleasure me orally. See, he is certified.'
 
2014-07-30 02:53:24 AM  
I'm totally getting a dog for my gluten sensitivity.

*ducks*
 
2014-07-30 02:55:03 AM  

studebaker hoch: This is my emotional needs alligator.


img.fark.net
 
2014-07-30 02:57:07 AM  

I


MY REACTORS!

 
2014-07-30 03:09:46 AM  

Wolf892: Good, it's BS that apartment complexes can outright forbid pets.


Having a pet and enjoying my condo that does allow animals, I can see how some places would not want them. Owners may not care for them properly, leading to destroyed walls, furnishing, floors, etc, as well as pets that can be noisy on top of the destructive aspects. Some places would rather not deal with complaints at 3am on a Tuesday because their owner didn't come home and Fido is howling at the top of his lungs and scratching at the walls. Even owners who do care for their pets in places that have carpeting, it takes quite a bit of recovery effort to ensure the place is 100% dander/hair/fur free after the owner leaves, and if someone moves in who is allergic, it can cause some nasty health problems depending on the person's allergic reaction if there are hairs left in carpeting, duct work, or anywhere else animal hair can gather. Just like places can outright forbid smokers and restrict the number of guests you have, it is their property and they can run it within their legal rights and restrictions as declared by the contract and laws allow.
 
2014-07-30 03:16:49 AM  

DarthBart: Screw it, we just take the dog in anyway.  Not into a grocery store or restaurant, but he goes into pretty much any other store.  Sometimes in his stroller, but most of the time just in the kiddie seat of the shopping cart.  Granted, he's a 5 pound chihuahua.  I don't think we could get away with it with a 200 pound Newfie that's liable to drop a 5 pound turd on the floor.


You take your rat-in-a-dog-suit everywhere? Must be an especially precious snowflake.
 
2014-07-30 03:26:30 AM  

DarthBart: Screw it, we just take the dog in anyway.  Not into a grocery store or restaurant, but he goes into pretty much any other store.  Sometimes in his stroller, but most of the time just in the kiddie seat of the shopping cart.  Granted, he's a 5 pound chihuahua.  I don't think we could get away with it with a 200 pound Newfie that's liable to drop a 5 pound turd on the floor.


I have zero problem with service DOGS. "Service" animals like rats and cats and stuff, however, make me all stabby

Worse than people who claim a rat is a therapy animal are people like you. It's a dog, not a child. It evolved to have four paws to traverse terrain of all kinds, not to be stuffed into a stroller designed to carry a helpless infant or to be placed in a grocery cart. You live in the real world, where people get anxious around animals like that, even who think it is completely inappropriate to take Prissy into Best Buy or Kohls or wherever. Leave the animal at home--he likes it there so much he demonstrates it by leaving gifts on the rug.

Take your pet for a walk outside. Take it to the park. All we ask is that you follow leash laws and respect that a lot of us don't want you to bring Muffy or Princess or Edna or whatever stupid name you gave the dog into stores and places where non-service dogs aren't welcome.
 
2014-07-30 03:27:00 AM  

ski9600: Jim_Callahan: tjsands1118: 
ski9600: Speaking of people, why don't we have "service people"?  Companions/youngers?

Actually, this is a pretty funny idea.  Technically, your annoying bratty kid that won't shut up is an animal, someone should get their two-year-old classed as a service animal and troll restaurant owners that try to kick them out, bar owners that ban children, etc.

Bonus points if they go with the comfort ani ...

No, I'm thinking of older persons (like 18-50YO) that could be employed and paid to be a companion for someone in the >65 range.  Arrange cleaning, shopping, make sure the bills are paid, hang out with them and the like.  So, for an older person maybe there's a government sponsored place where his or her family can go to hire someone like this.  Maybe someone that needs a jorb and would even live with this elder in a spare bedroom or whatever.  Someone that might need work and a place to stay, but won't be breaking laws.

/It's probably too much to ask.


That exists, and the current employment market for it is borderline slavery. There's a reason those domestic helper positions are filled by immigrant women working for below minimum wage. With dodgy paperwork, at best.
 
2014-07-30 03:27:26 AM  
I want to start bringing my "service" bong and my "service" weed into movie theaters, restaurants, malls, and ballparks.
 
2014-07-30 04:15:01 AM  

Kensey: Lumber Jack Off: CasperImproved: lewismarktwo: You aren't even allowed to ask for the certification so it's pretty pointless either way.

And how do you know this?

it's SOP for most places. I've worked at a couple of large retailers and that was always one of the first things they told us n00bs on the first day of orientation.

It's not just SOP, it's the law.  Originally it was allowed to ask three questions.  Recently the law was amended to only allow two of the three -- "Does this animal help you with a disability?" and "How?" (the no-longer-permissible question is "Do you have a disability?")


Surely "Does this animal help you with a disability?" implicitly asks the "no-longer-permissible" question anyway? How would an animal help you with a disability when you don't have a disability?
 
2014-07-30 04:33:21 AM  

Ex-Texan: You have your yappy "service dog" for everyone to see, I carry my "service revolver" out in the open. Not a weiner fight or anything. Simple: control your dog, or I might lose control over my revolver. It has a lot more training than your dog.
/Not the first dog I've shot.
//Been bitten, by a pit bull,  so I guess we're pretty much even.
///Called 311, reported owners, dog impounded. Not the 1st time. Owners wound up moving. Fark the dog.


watchoutwegotabadass.jpg
 
2014-07-30 05:12:32 AM  
Currently the only animals permitted as service animals by the ADA are dogs and miniature horses. So that service giraffe is a non-starter.

I have a service dog, my seizure alerter. She is a Standard Poodle who loves her job. When I was hospitalized, she was brought to see me. She sat on my bed with me and greeted all the doctors and nurses on the floor, raising everyone's spirits.

Any type or breed of dog can be a service dog. A chihuahua will function perfectly well as a hearing dog, for instance. I knew one whose job was to smell things--his owner had no sense of smell and needed the dog to warn her of dangerous scents. I have seen pitbulls who worked as stability/balance dogs for people with balance issues.

No dog should be out of control in public. If it is, it needs to be removed immediately.

 After being around dogs and people, which would you prefer to deal with--a clean, well-mannered dog behaving and sitting quietly by its owner, or a bunch of screaming, filthy kids running wild? How about a pack of randy drunks?

Oh, BTW, allergies do not trump someone's need for a service animal.
 
GBB
2014-07-30 05:31:24 AM  
I used to have a helper monkey.  But, I lost him in an IKEA.
 
2014-07-30 05:34:13 AM  

Lumber Jack Off: CasperImproved: lewismarktwo: You aren't even allowed to ask for the certification so it's pretty pointless either way.

And how do you know this?

it's SOP for most places. I've worked at a couple of large retailers and that was always one of the first things they told us n00bs on the first day of orientation.


I asked because it just sounded like a stupid policy. I know a number of animal dependent people that would love to know this is true just so they CAN without justification take their pets with them on errands, lunch, dinner, etc.
 
2014-07-30 05:39:56 AM  

Lumber Jack Off: CasperImproved: lewismarktwo: You aren't even allowed to ask for the certification so it's pretty pointless either way.

And how do you know this?

it's SOP for most places. I've worked at a couple of large retailers and that was always one of the first things they told us n00bs on the first day of orientation.


I worked security for a while -- mostly baseball spring training and concert venues. Same thing here. Told to always let them in. Never question it. Even if it's a monkey. (Seriously)
 
2014-07-30 05:55:32 AM  

Khazar-Khum: I have a service dog, my seizure alerter. She is a Standard Poodle who loves her job. When I was hospitalized, she was brought to see me. She sat on my bed with me and greeted all the doctors and nurses on the floor, raising everyone's spirits.

Everyone was saddened when I executed her for failure to prevent my hospitalization, but as I explained to the doctors and nurses, I had to make an example of her. It's the only way the other service dogs would learn.

 
2014-07-30 06:08:11 AM  

Jim_Callahan: If the dog is  actually aggressive rather than you just being full of shiat, do you know what you  can do with a service animal?  Call the actual police or animal control and get it impounded, and possibly put down.

If you push it, that outcome's pretty much inevitable since human-safety statutes will trump the ADA every time (calling animal control, notably, is not 'questioning the credentials of the dog', and whether it gets killed is a matter of the dog's behavior and not mitigated by any cert), and after three or four pets or "therapy animals" getting put down make the national news the fakers will most likely cut it out.

// I love my dogs as much as the next guy, but it's the same love I have for my car, my reactors, or hanging out on the river.  Fundamentally they're not people, they're property, and they don't have a legal or moral right to hang out wherever they want.


You had me up until there. The self absorbed assholes who take advantage of other peoples ailments to take their pets everywhere with them aren't the kind of people that are going to stop pulling that shiat.
 
2014-07-30 06:11:03 AM  

Khazar-Khum: No dog should be out of control in public. If it is, it needs to be removed immediately.


Nice post.  But this sentence stood out.  You're absolutely correct.  And the way you can tell a properly trained service animal is that it won't be out of control.  Properly trained dogs are much more consistent in their behavior than humans.

I hope you're doing well after whatever your hospitalization was for.
 
2014-07-30 06:14:25 AM  

Khazar-Khum: After being around dogs and people, which would you prefer to deal with--a clean, well-mannered dog behaving and sitting quietly by its owner, or a bunch of screaming, filthy kids running wild? How about a pack of randy drunks?


Question 2: Which would you prefer--a first-class seat next to a supermodel on a Delta flight, or a coach class seat on Qantas surrounded by disgruntled lemurs carrying ebola? How about a ride in a JAL cargo bay completely filled with lice?
 
2014-07-30 06:39:07 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Khazar-Khum: After being around dogs and people, which would you prefer to deal with--a clean, well-mannered dog behaving and sitting quietly by its owner, or a bunch of screaming, filthy kids running wild? How about a pack of randy drunks?

Question 2: Which would you prefer--a first-class seat next to a supermodel on a Delta flight, or a coach class seat on Qantas surrounded by disgruntled lemurs carrying ebola? How about a ride in a JAL cargo bay completely filled with lice?


Can I just be strapped to the wing of a United plane covered in africanized bees dying of liver failure?

Maybe just impale me like a cocktail sausage on the top of an ICBM and slather me in radioactive placentas.
 
2014-07-30 06:45:08 AM  
This must be where police dogs get their "certification" too, because they're certainly not out there telling drugs from other-than-drugs.

/watch your butt, New Mexico
 
2014-07-30 06:51:07 AM  
TSA keeps taking my service goldfish, I don't know why I need it for my fear of heights.
 
2014-07-30 07:29:04 AM  

Snarfangel: I am the first to admit that some service dogs are useful.
[www.funnyanimalsite.com image 600x509]


My corgi needs this...
 
2014-07-30 07:29:31 AM  

Wolf892: Good, it's BS that apartment complexes can outright forbid pets.


You've never been a landlord, have you?  I like pets myself, but some people are farking irresponsible, and let their dogs poop in common areas, and don't clean up after them.  That gets old REAL quick.

And that's why some apartment complexes ban pets.  It ain't the animals, it's the humans...
 
2014-07-30 07:30:09 AM  
seattletimes.com

My service snake helps calm my nerves....
 
2014-07-30 07:32:14 AM  
Considering that there are no nationally recognized "certification programs" overseen by any recognized "board of standards" in the country, and the word "certified service dog" carries as much legal weight as "certified organic good", coupled with the fact that people are not allowed to ask for proof of anything once someone declares it's a service animal:

Online Service Animal Certification Mills -- sounds like a hell of a racket, and a completely legal way to suck up money from people who dress up their ferrets and carry their dogs in their purse.

Kind of like the guy selling plots of land on the moon.  Give me $30 for a piece of paper that has absolutely no legal standing whatsoever!
 
2014-07-30 07:32:44 AM  

maram500: DarthBart: Screw it, we just take the dog in anyway.  Not into a grocery store or restaurant, but he goes into pretty much any other store.  Sometimes in his stroller, but most of the time just in the kiddie seat of the shopping cart.  Granted, he's a 5 pound chihuahua.  I don't think we could get away with it with a 200 pound Newfie that's liable to drop a 5 pound turd on the floor.

I have zero problem with service DOGS. "Service" animals like rats and cats and stuff, however, make me all stabby

Worse than people who claim a rat is a therapy animal are people like you. It's a dog, not a child. It evolved to have four paws to traverse terrain of all kinds, not to be stuffed into a stroller designed to carry a helpless infant or to be placed in a grocery cart. You live in the real world, where people get anxious around animals like that, even who think it is completely inappropriate to take Prissy into Best Buy or Kohls or wherever. Leave the animal at home--he likes it there so much he demonstrates it by leaving gifts on the rug.

Take your pet for a walk outside. Take it to the park. All we ask is that you follow leash laws and respect that a lot of us don't want you to bring Muffy or Princess or Edna or whatever stupid name you gave the dog into stores and places where non-service dogs aren't welcome.


Chompy, my service shark, has no need of a leash, thank you very much.
 
2014-07-30 07:35:53 AM  
I went into a barber shop once with my dog. The barber said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa! The health department won't allow dogs in here unless it's a service dog. Is that a service dog?"

I thought he was giving me an 'out'. (And I found out later that the bit about the health department is BS.) I said "Yes".

While I was getting my haircut, he asked me what kind of service dog it was.

I jokingly said, "He helps prevent my homicidal rages."

The barber never said another word. He finished my haircut and took my money without even making eye contact.
 
2014-07-30 07:49:06 AM  

aagrajag: Haven't read the thread, so sorry if this has already been asked, but why is one no allowed to ask for proof? For any other privilege: hunting, fishing, driving on public roads, I would have to produce a license.

Second question: if someone were to know that a certain breed of dog or other animal could not *possibly* function as a true service animal, is there anything preventing an employee from simply saying: "Your purse-chihuahua is not a service animal; stop insulting my intelligence and get the hell out!"?


Yes.  There are two permissible questions that can be asked.  They aren't asked to hear the wind come from the person's mouth but to gather information.  That information is then used to make a determination on the validity of the claim.  The law lays it all out.  I would add that the way in which the person is told about the determination would probably be best to be something other than the way you put it, but yes.  It is allowed under the law.
 
2014-07-30 07:55:59 AM  

CasperImproved: I asked because it just sounded like a stupid policy. I know a number of animal dependent people that would love to know this is true just so they CAN without justification take their pets with them on errands, lunch, dinner, etc


It is SOP, but not well known, you will likely run into peopel who think they shoudl ask and make the call if the animal shoud be allowed in themselves.

aagrajag: Haven't read the thread, so sorry if this has already been asked, but why is one no allowed to ask for proof? For any other privilege: hunting, fishing, driving on public roads, I would have to produce a license.


Under ADA it isn't a privelege.

It is seen as akin to asking if you have a license fro crutches.

/not agreeing here, just pointing out my understanding of the law

Second question: if someone were to know that a certain breed of dog or other animal could not *possibly* function as a true service animal, is there anything preventing an employee from simply saying: "Your purse-chihuahua is not a service animal; stop insulting my intelligence and get the hell out!"?


Sevice animal now reaches to calming people down, so any animal can do it.
 
2014-07-30 08:34:07 AM  
My mother in law has done this just so she can bring her stupid cocker spaniel everywhere with her. I hate her.
 
2014-07-30 08:36:56 AM  
Newson6 has become the most outragiously conservative "news" agency in my city... they always post #%@! like this without verifying, and always use inflammatory language like "passed off as a service animal"... newson6, you're making a judgment there that the animal was not a service animal.  Since you can't question, you don't know!

/They used to be the best station in town, and have the best weather coverage... now, I never go to their website,
 
2014-07-30 08:43:30 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Firstly, no, it wouldn't. It's a dog. It wouldn't give anything to you beyond trained and innate pack behavior, which would relatively easily be transferred to the next owner if your stopped feeding it for a month or two.
Secondly, I think you're mistaking clinical mental instability for attachment, a bit, there.


You're a cold person, Callahan. Suddenly I just understood a whole lot more about how your mind works.

Only dogs are officially recognized as service animals.

This publication provides guidance on the term "service animal" and the service animal provisions in the Department's new regulations.
Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA.
A service animal is a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability.
Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go.
 
2014-07-30 08:47:17 AM  
I just want my service midget
www.lisashea.com
 
2014-07-30 08:47:28 AM  

DarthBart: Granted, he's a 5 pound chihuahua. I don't think we could get away with it with a 200 pound Newfie that's liable to drop a 5 pound turd on the floor.


You have a chihuahua. You did drop a 5-lb turd on the floor.
 
2014-07-30 08:52:31 AM  
So how has the collision of anti-pit bull laws gone with service pit bulls?
 
2014-07-30 09:09:22 AM  

Ex-Texan: You have your yappy "service dog" for everyone to see, I carry my "service revolver" out in the open. Not a weiner fight or anything. Simple: control your dog, or I might lose control over my revolver. It has a lot more training than your dog.
/Not the first dog I've shot.
//Been bitten, by a pit bull,  so I guess we're pretty much even.
///Called 311, reported owners, dog impounded. Not the 1st time. Owners wound up moving. Fark the dog.


img.fark.net
 
2014-07-30 09:09:34 AM  

rbuzby:
Registration and regulation is just a first step toward confiscating all the service animals and enslaving all the people, like the Nazis did.  First they came for my rat, then the jews.


www.theglobeandmail.com
 
2014-07-30 09:54:17 AM  
ski9600:  Speaking of people, why don't we have "service people"?  Companions/youngers?

They do have them. Check out "Comfort Keepers." They sit there and talk to you, do chores, etc. There are a lot of companies/groups like them, too.
 
2014-07-30 10:01:46 AM  

Warlordtrooper: // therapy pets are bullshiat and those people should be arrested for abusing the system



Wow, kind of a jerkish thing to say. Even if you were confusing therapy dogs with service dogs (they are different) your statement is still jerkish. Therapy dogs are meant to actually help people. Not hinder you. It's not about you. It's about the elderly in old folks homes, it's about people who have suffered a severe trauma... It's a proven fact that dogs can help people cope, especially when they are trained to calmly sit, not be bothered by loud noises (trains, gunshots, etc), and interact with people who may have trouble talking to other people.

Once again, it's not about you and your dislike of animals or whatever. Sorry.

/has a dog in therapy class
//I know the distinction between therapy and service/assistant dog
///I think all dogs should have advanced obedience training if they are out in public around the elderly or children
 
2014-07-30 10:08:42 AM  
My girlfriend does this.  She had me photoshop fake tags with the dogs' pictures on them, so she could claim they're official service dogs, to take them into restaurants and hotels.  Her dogs are well-trained, but I can't convince her that that's not okay.
 
2014-07-30 10:10:22 AM  

The Banana Thug: I have a neighbor with a very aggressive German Shepherd. Attempts by the community to get the dog impounded were not successful because the owner was able to claim it's a service dog. No one believes it, but no one wants to get sued either. It's a bullshiat law, and it needs to change to prevent abuse.


Well I suppose he can keep claiming that to keep it. But if he were to take it into an establishment and it was being a nuisance or aggressive, the establishment does have the right to ask *the person* to be removed. They can't legally remove just *the dog*. If the dog pees and poos on the floor, that is also a time where the employees or whatever in that public place can tell the person to GTFO.

The cops can then be called on the *person* for creating an unsafe environment in that establishment.

At least, this was how it was explained to me in the therapy dog classes I attend. I suppose it all comes down to interpretation of the law, which is very dry when read, and apparently is hard to be implemented.

I do think that there should be more flexibility; for instance, service animals are supposed to have a card. But establishments can't legally ask to see it. Which I find interesting. I could pass my therapy dog off for a service animal, which I don't think is correct. I have no medical issue that requires my dog to assist me. I suppose if you were doing something like getting onto a plane, you may have to provide. I'm not sure on that though.

/finds this an interesting topic
 
2014-07-30 10:11:50 AM  

Shepherd: My girlfriend does this.  She had me photoshop fake tags with the dogs' pictures on them, so she could claim they're official service dogs, to take them into restaurants and hotels.  Her dogs are well-trained, but I can't convince her that that's not okay.


Yeah, when I was asking for clarification as to how far my dog could go in therapy classes--could we go into all these public places??--they said I had to have a medical condition. Then someone said "Just claim PTSD, everyone is claiming that these days."

That was an awful thing to suggest, to me. Can see how some people would do it, 'just cause I can!!1' ...but wow. No. That's not my style.
 
2014-07-30 10:20:01 AM  

Shepherd: My girlfriend does this.  She had me photoshop fake tags with the dogs' pictures on them, so she could claim they're official service dogs, to take them into restaurants and hotels.  Her dogs are well-trained, but I can't convince her that that's not okay.


Maybe you could have not done something you felt was wrong?
 
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