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(New York Magazine)   Why I Have Become Less Pro-Israel   (nymag.com ) divider line
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4583 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jul 2014 at 5:42 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-29 01:04:05 PM  
This sort of gets to my underlying logic as well - Israel no longer seems to have any plan at all. Their actions don't seem to be geared to any ultimate goal other than permanent occupation and whipping of Palestinians. It's much, much harder to see their actions in any positive light given that.
 
2014-07-29 01:08:58 PM  

DamnYankees: This sort of gets to my underlying logic as well - Israel no longer seems to have any plan at all. Their actions don't seem to be geared to any ultimate goal other than permanent occupation and whipping of Palestinians. It's much, much harder to see their actions in any positive light given that.


Pretty much sums up my feelings also.
 
2014-07-29 01:14:05 PM  

WTFDYW: DamnYankees: This sort of gets to my underlying logic as well - Israel no longer seems to have any plan at all. Their actions don't seem to be geared to any ultimate goal other than permanent occupation and whipping of Palestinians. It's much, much harder to see their actions in any positive light given that.

Pretty much sums up my feelings also.


The whole situation since 1947 strikes me as slow-motion Zionism

/keep taking their land and expanding your borders
//can't understand why anyone would object to that
 
2014-07-29 01:27:57 PM  
There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.
 
2014-07-29 01:28:28 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: WTFDYW: DamnYankees: This sort of gets to my underlying logic as well - Israel no longer seems to have any plan at all. Their actions don't seem to be geared to any ultimate goal other than permanent occupation and whipping of Palestinians. It's much, much harder to see their actions in any positive light given that.

Pretty much sums up my feelings also.

The whole situation since 1947 strikes me as slow-motion Zionism

/keep taking their land and expanding your borders
//can't understand why anyone would object to that


uhhh...wut?

Israel gave up the Sinai and the blockade of Gaza started 2 years after the pull out when Hamas took control
Israel offered Syria the Golan as long as it stayed a DMZ and Syria balked
 
2014-07-29 01:28:55 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.


I don't agree with this. I think they are existentially threatened  if they lose US support. Then they very well may lose an existential war.
 
2014-07-29 01:33:41 PM  

WTFDYW: DamnYankees: This sort of gets to my underlying logic as well - Israel no longer seems to have any plan at all. Their actions don't seem to be geared to any ultimate goal other than permanent occupation and whipping of Palestinians. It's much, much harder to see their actions in any positive light given that.

Pretty much sums up my feelings also.


Third that.
 
2014-07-29 01:36:40 PM  

DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.

I don't agree with this. I think they are existentially threatened  if they lose US support. Then they very well may lose an existential war.


I'd agree with that up to a point, that point being when an American congressman can safely disregard AIPAC.
 
2014-07-29 01:41:51 PM  
The issue, in the US media and political theatre, keeps getting reduced to defending Israel on the basis that Hamas is doing worse things. I am not sure when that became a viable defense for heinous actions.

Even if you put aside for a moment, for the sake of argument, the reality of the Gaza embargo and how it drives people to desperation. Even if you ignore the fact that the Israeli government employs a double standard, giving Israeli suspects (and confessed criminals even!) the full fruits of due-process while bulldozing the homes of Palestinian suspects. Where Palestinians who are detained are beaten while in custody, and if they publicize it their homes are ransacked and their family members detained without warrants. Even if you ignore all this. This obvious racism and apartheid being employed by the Israeli government. Put aside the gross enormities, collective punishment, and provocations inflicted against civilian populations of the wrong ethnicity or religion. In that absurd vacuum it is still not acceptable for a government that we support, with billions in aid and military equipment, to stoop to the level of a terrorist organization to justify their actions.

You cannot use Hamas, a group that everyone agrees is a terrorist organization, as your morale compass when determining what actions are appropriate, human, or civilized. Period. If you drop to their level, then you yourself are a terrorist organization. That is the indisputable fact, even in the ridiculous moral vacuum we just created to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. When you push reality back into the equation. When you add in everything listed above: The Collective Punishment, The Apartheid, The Gaza Embargo. Then it becomes a farce so unbelievable that only a devoted network of extremely wealthy lobbies could possibly skew the narrative into what it has become today. And of course, as it stands, that is the exact situation in the United States. It is not okay to defend Israel, there is no justification, there can be no justification for the gross and heinous crimes they perpetuate.
 
2014-07-29 01:53:25 PM  
For me it has been looking at the reality of the situation in Gaza and the West Bank.  Also my post-911 "FARK MUSLIMS!!!" rage dried up right about the time I realized the Iraq war was a travesty.  Just empathy.  I understand WHY Israel imposes such heavy restrictions on movement, but I still feel very sorry for them.
 
2014-07-29 02:04:33 PM  

DamnYankees: This sort of gets to my underlying logic as well - Israel no longer seems to have any plan at all. Their actions don't seem to be geared to any ultimate goal other than permanent occupation and whipping of Palestinians. It's much, much harder to see their actions in any positive light given that.


Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.


Alunan: When you add in everything listed above: The Collective Punishment, The Apartheid, The Gaza Embargo. Then it becomes a farce so unbelievable that only a devoted network of extremely wealthy lobbies could possibly skew the narrative into what it has become today.


All of these. I can't condone terrorism and attacks on civilians from any corner. Israel has essentially become Jack Palance in "Shane" throwing the gun at the feet of the sheep herder. When the treatment of Palestinians by Israel continues to be one of almost constant provocation, their argument of "See? They hit us, so we had to hit them back" falls totally flat.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-07-29 02:06:21 PM  
Sometimes I think they just plan on killing Palestinians off slowly over time until they are all gone.
 
2014-07-29 02:07:10 PM  

vpb: Sometimes I think they just plan on killing Palestinians off slowly over time until they are all gone.


I think that's a plank of the Likud party platform.
 
2014-07-29 02:16:34 PM  
The situation will be resolved when one side has completely exterminated the other, and not a moment sooner.

Stopped giving a crap about this particular hate-fest 35 years ago.
 
2014-07-29 02:59:47 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I'd agree with that up to a point, that point being when an American congressman can safely disregard AIPAC.


You can, but we call him Ron Paul, and we all know what we think of that guy.
 
2014-07-29 03:25:42 PM  
ANTI-SEMITE!!! (oblig)
 
2014-07-29 03:54:21 PM  
I don't give a shiat about the plight of Palestinians but am I curious why Jews and Arabs can't just live in a country together. No walls, no fences, just live there. Why can't they do this? These are adult human beings in 2014 and they can't live in the same country without killing each other, like almost every other country in the world?

If not there is no point in finding a solution and I genuinely hope one side kills the other so we can be done with this.
 
2014-07-29 03:54:23 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Marcus Aurelius: I'd agree with that up to a point, that point being when an American congressman can safely disregard AIPAC.

You can, but we call him Ron Paul, and we all know what we think of that guy.


Kathy Castor, Congresswoman of Tampa Bay refused to help the American high school student from her district who got beat down in custody. That should tell you all you need to know about that landscape.

Not a criticism, just a comment. I love Marcus Aurelius' work.
 
2014-07-29 03:55:29 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: I don't give a shiat about the plight of Palestinians but am I curious why Jews and Arabs can't just live in a country together. No walls, no fences, just live there. Why can't they do this? These are adult human beings in 2014 and they can't live in the same country without killing each other, like almost every other country in the world?

If not there is no point in finding a solution and I genuinely hope one side kills the other so we can be done with this.


Because Israeli's demand a Jewish state, which means they refuse to live in a state in which Jews do not control the government.

You may think this is a good idea or a bad idea, but its the basic reason.
 
2014-07-29 03:57:30 PM  

DamnYankees: Contrabulous Flabtraption: I don't give a shiat about the plight of Palestinians but am I curious why Jews and Arabs can't just live in a country together. No walls, no fences, just live there. Why can't they do this? These are adult human beings in 2014 and they can't live in the same country without killing each other, like almost every other country in the world?

If not there is no point in finding a solution and I genuinely hope one side kills the other so we can be done with this.

Because Israeli's demand a Jewish state, which means they refuse to live in a state in which Jews do not control the government.

You may think this is a good idea or a bad idea, but its the basic reason.


So are Palestinians willing to live side by side with Jews in a nation called Israel? Or are you leaving out their demands?
 
2014-07-29 04:01:26 PM  

Alunan: Kathy Castor


Holy shiat!

Reminds me of one of the questions on the U.S. Citizenship test: "Who does a U.S. Senator represent?" and one of the incorrect answers is "Only the people that voted for them."
 
2014-07-29 04:03:09 PM  
cdn.ebaumsworld.com
 
2014-07-29 04:04:11 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: So are Palestinians willing to live side by side with Jews in a nation called Israel? Or are you leaving out their demands?


Well, whether the nation is called Israel or not seemed kind of irrelevant. Are you asking me whether or not Palestinians are willing to live inside a single state with the current boundaries of Israel/West Bank/Gaza, in which all Palestinians and Jews have equal rights?

I genuinely don't know. But since I know Israeli's won't accept it, that's sufficient to explain why they can't just live in a country together, which is what you asked.
 
2014-07-29 04:21:38 PM  
You know who else liked the Jews a little bit less?
 
2014-07-29 04:52:51 PM  

zedster: uhhh...wut?

Israel gave up the Sinai and the blockade of Gaza started 2 years after the pull out when Hamas took control
Israel offered Syria the Golan as long as it stayed a DMZ and Syria balked


lh3.googleusercontent.com

Take a look at this series of maps and tell me how the Israelis aren't just wiping out Palestine bit by bit.
 
2014-07-29 05:01:59 PM  
 
2014-07-29 05:02:00 PM  

DamnYankees: Contrabulous Flabtraption: So are Palestinians willing to live side by side with Jews in a nation called Israel? Or are you leaving out their demands?

Well, whether the nation is called Israel or not seemed kind of irrelevant. Are you asking me whether or not Palestinians are willing to live inside a single state with the current boundaries of Israel/West Bank/Gaza, in which all Palestinians and Jews have equal rights?

I genuinely don't know. But since I know Israeli's won't accept it, that's sufficient to explain why they can't just live in a country together, which is what you asked.


Well let's say representatives of Israel and Palestine agreed to an end to hostilities and decided to attempt to integrate both populations as citizens of the nation of Israel. What I'm asking is would that even be something John Q. Palestine and Joe Israel would ever consider being ok with?
 
2014-07-29 05:04:33 PM  
Why I Have Become Less Pro-Israel

You grew/acquired/stole/borrowed/found/developed a brain with a functioning conscience.
 
2014-07-29 05:11:21 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Well let's say representatives of Israel and Palestine agreed to an end to hostilities and decided to attempt to integrate both populations as citizens of the nation of Israel. What I'm asking is would that even be something John Q. Palestine and Joe Israel would ever consider being ok with?


I don't know enough about Palestinians to say with any certainty. I know enough Jews and Israeli's to say with some certainty there's no chance in hell they'd ever accept that.
 
2014-07-29 05:17:23 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.


Really? I think Hammas lobbing the first missile 12 minutes after the cease fire is kind of evidence of the opposite. I am not as pro-Israel as I used to be, but it's silly to say their existence is no longer under threat.
 
2014-07-29 05:19:59 PM  

Lando Lincoln: Take a look at this series of maps and tell me how the Israelis aren't just wiping out Palestine bit by bit.


upload.wikimedia.org

Who is this with Hitler? Who lost the war and who was occupying "Palestine" after WW2?
 
2014-07-29 05:22:01 PM  

DeaH: Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.

Really? I think Hammas lobbing the first missile 12 minutes after the cease fire is kind of evidence of the opposite. I am not as pro-Israel as I used to be, but it's silly to say their existence is no longer under threat.


1) One side of a conflict launching attacks *after* the expiration of ceasefire is hardly damning evidence of anything.

2) Hamas' rocket attacks from Gaza have, as far as I'm aware, never killed a single Israeli. Hardly 'existential'.
 
2014-07-29 05:27:14 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Who is this with Hitler? Who lost the war and who was occupying "Palestine" after WW2?


That's Haj Amin al-Husseini. So...because that guy was helping the Axis, that means...what?
 
2014-07-29 05:28:09 PM  

Alunan: Not a criticism, just a comment. I love Marcus Aurelius' work.


If you keep making insightful and thought provoking posts, you're going to ruin the politics tab.

/the pleasure's all on this side of the table
 
2014-07-29 05:33:20 PM  

DamnYankees: Contrabulous Flabtraption: Well let's say representatives of Israel and Palestine agreed to an end to hostilities and decided to attempt to integrate both populations as citizens of the nation of Israel. What I'm asking is would that even be something John Q. Palestine and Joe Israel would ever consider being ok with?

I don't know enough about Palestinians to say with any certainty.

I know enough Jews and Israeli's to say with some certainty there's no chance in hell they'd ever accept that.

OK, then so it seems that's our baseline for where to start looking for a solution. If Israel will never accept integration - then what is an equitable solution? Or is anyone willing to admit there isn't one, life isn't fair, and it's just a case a of tough shiat for Palestinians?
 
2014-07-29 05:33:35 PM  

Lando Lincoln: That's Haj Amin al-Husseini. So...because that guy was helping the Axis, that means...what?


Do you think Axis puppet governments in countries like Poland weren't replaced after WW2?
 
2014-07-29 05:37:09 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: OK, then so it seems that's our baseline for where to start looking for a solution. If Israel will never accept integration - then what is an equitable solution? Or is anyone willing to admit there isn't one, life isn't fair, and it's just a case a of tough shiat for Palestinians?


This is what I ask my family. They don't have an answer. Neither do I. That's why I've mostly checked out. It's not that I'm anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian. At this point I'm just anti-giving-a-shiat and pro-let-them-fight-it-out.
 
2014-07-29 05:41:13 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: DamnYankees: Contrabulous Flabtraption: Well let's say representatives of Israel and Palestine agreed to an end to hostilities and decided to attempt to integrate both populations as citizens of the nation of Israel. What I'm asking is would that even be something John Q. Palestine and Joe Israel would ever consider being ok with?

I don't know enough about Palestinians to say with any certainty. I know enough Jews and Israeli's to say with some certainty there's no chance in hell they'd ever accept that.

OK, then so it seems that's our baseline for where to start looking for a solution. If Israel will never accept integration - then what is an equitable solution? Or is anyone willing to admit there isn't one, life isn't fair, and it's just a case a of tough shiat for Palestinians?


There's only two ways Israel / Palestine is going to play out:

1) Israel finishes killing all Palestinians / driving all Palestinians out of the region
2) Somebody nukes Israel, making the land thoroughly unfit to live on for thousands of years

I suppose there's a third / fourth one...but it's highly unlikely.

3) God sucks all of the Israelis or Palestinians up into Heaven and leaves the other side down below.
4) People stop believing in God and realize that Jerusalem isn't worth fighting over.

But yeah, it's going to be option 1. Sucks to be a Palestinian.
 
2014-07-29 05:42:12 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Lando Lincoln: That's Haj Amin al-Husseini. So...because that guy was helping the Axis, that means...what?

Do you think Axis puppet governments in countries like Poland weren't replaced after WW2?


So because of his actions, all Palestinians should be relocated? To where? Germany? Italy?
 
2014-07-29 05:43:34 PM  

Lando Lincoln: 4) People stop believing in God and realize that Jerusalem isn't worth fighting over.


img.youtube.com
 
2014-07-29 05:45:21 PM  
Maybe I'm naive, but I really believe Israel would be fine if the rest of the world would just leave them the fark alone.
 
2014-07-29 05:45:46 PM  

DamnYankees: DeaH: Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.

Really? I think Hammas lobbing the first missile 12 minutes after the cease fire is kind of evidence of the opposite. I am not as pro-Israel as I used to be, but it's silly to say their existence is no longer under threat.

1) One side of a conflict launching attacks *after* the expiration of ceasefire is hardly damning evidence of anything.

2) Hamas' rocket attacks from Gaza have, as far as I'm aware, never killed a single Israeli. Hardly 'existential'.


First, thanks for not pointing out that I misspelled Hamas - a major boo-boo.

Second, if people are firing rockets at me, I am not going to think I am a paranoiac when I feel like someone wants to kill me. The truth is that Hamas is aiming and rockets at Israel. Twenty-eight people in Israel have been killed. The truth is also that Hamas broke the cease fire.

As I said, I have problems with Israel. But there are people out there who are trying to make sure Israel no longer exists. Israel has the right to exist. But they should get the hell out of Palestinian lands. That's not going to happen while missiles are being lobbed at them from Palestine.
 
2014-07-29 05:46:41 PM  

Irving Maimway: DamnYankees: This sort of gets to my underlying logic as well - Israel no longer seems to have any plan at all. Their actions don't seem to be geared to any ultimate goal other than permanent occupation and whipping of Palestinians. It's much, much harder to see their actions in any positive light given that.

Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.

Alunan: When you add in everything listed above: The Collective Punishment, The Apartheid, The Gaza Embargo. Then it becomes a farce so unbelievable that only a devoted network of extremely wealthy lobbies could possibly skew the narrative into what it has become today.

All of these. I can't condone terrorism and attacks on civilians from any corner. Israel has essentially become Jack Palance in "Shane" throwing the gun at the feet of the sheep herder. When the treatment of Palestinians by Israel continues to be one of almost constant provocation, their argument of "See? They hit us, so we had to hit them back" falls totally flat.


It falls even flatter when you consider the difference in capabilities. It's like if a toddler kicked you in the shins, so you punched them and rationalized it with "they hit me first".
 
2014-07-29 05:48:12 PM  

Lando Lincoln: So because of his actions, all Palestinians should be relocated? To where? Germany? Italy?


Well originally Palestinians left of their own accord. Apparently they loved the old Axis regime and couldn't stand the new one. If there are any Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, then they should peacefully coexist with their neighbors -or- expect justifiable retaliation, including a complete dismantling of the Hamas terrorist government.
 
2014-07-29 05:49:25 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: There was a time when Israel was existentially threatened.

That time has long since passed.

I don't agree with this. I think they are existentially threatened  if they lose US support. Then they very well may lose an existential war.

I'd agree with that up to a point, that point being when an American congressman can safely disregard AIPAC.


Also, Israel probably should have thought about this when formulating its Palestine policy over the last 30 years.  The only possible end game that the Israelis could be playing at is the destruction of Palestine as a concept and the Palestinians as a cohesive people.
 
2014-07-29 05:49:25 PM  

vpb: Sometimes I think they just plan on killing Palestinians off slowly over time until they are all gone.


That brings me nicely to the part of TFA I thought was interesting:

Netanyahu and his coalition have no strategy of their own except endless counterinsurgency against the backdrop of a steadily deteriorating diplomatic position within the world and an inexorable demographic decline.

This is the first I've heard about that. Are the Palestinians outbreeding them or is this decline just in relation to Muslims in general? Does Israel have an equivalent of Evangelicals Quiverfull thing?
 
2014-07-29 05:49:40 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: I don't give a shiat about the plight of Palestinians but am I curious why Jews and Arabs can't just live in a country together. No walls, no fences, just live there. Why can't they do this? These are adult human beings in 2014 and they can't live in the same country without killing each other, like almost every other country in the world?

If not there is no point in finding a solution and I genuinely hope one side kills the other so we can be done with this.


Because God told both sides that each side should have all of historic Israel.  Of course neither side will compromise if they think God has told them they are absolutely in the right.

Marginally related:

lh4.ggpht.com
 
2014-07-29 05:50:30 PM  

DeaH: Second, if people are firing rockets at me, I am not going to think I am a paranoiac when I feel like someone wants to kill me. The truth is that Hamas is aiming and rockets at Israel. Twenty-eight people in Israel have been killed. The truth is also that Hamas broke the cease fire.


No one said it was paranoia. I merely said it wasn't existential. And I stand by that. Thanks for correcting me about the 28 dead, but as horrible as it is. 28 deaths in 14 years is a tiny number in the grand scheme of war.

DeaH: But there are people out there who are trying to make sure Israel no longer exists. Israel has the right to exist. But they should get the hell out of Palestinian lands. That's not going to happen while missiles are being lobbed at them from Palestine.


Why can't Israel get out of the West Bank while Hamas is firing rockets from Gaza? What's the connection?
 
2014-07-29 05:50:37 PM  

zedster: uhhh...wut?

Israel gave up the Sinai and the blockade of Gaza started 2 years after the pull out when Hamas took control
Israel offered Syria the Golan as long as it stayed a DMZ and Syria balked


The Sinai was a prize from the 1967 war.  Not really relevant when talking about "Palestine."  Same goes for the Golan.
 
2014-07-29 05:51:31 PM  

Lando Lincoln: So because of his actions,


It's also very clever of you and rather disingenuous to say that it was "his actions". It was many Palestinians that welcomed the Axis puppet government. They were notoriously anti-Jewish and that probably is why they were so keen on leaving after the British took over.
 
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