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(Politico)   What the war in Europe really looks like   (politico.com) divider line 26
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2828 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jul 2014 at 12:11 PM (12 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



26 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-07-29 09:35:39 AM  
Thanks, Russia, for reminding us why NATO exists.

/Thanks, Subby, for the post.
 
2014-07-29 09:55:14 AM  
So we are finally admitting it is a war?  How long has it been since NATO and the EU threw Ukraine under the bus when Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea?  I mean, we made all these promises to Ukraine to give up their nukes, but I guess they missed something in the fine print.  Ukraine forces will get the upper hand, then Russia will invade all they way to Poland... no one wants WW3, but it is time to start getting ready to fight it.

These are the last days of the human race, and we will not survive them because we haven't done anything that merits our right to survive.  Just another blip in the universe.
 
2014-07-29 10:05:49 AM  
I was born in 1980, just a child at the tail end of the cold war but I have since studied it extensively.  I really hope we're not heading back to that business.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-07-29 10:09:29 AM  

real_headhoncho: So we are finally admitting it is a war?  How long has it been since NATO and the EU threw Ukraine under the bus when Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea?  I mean, we made all these promises to Ukraine to give up their nukes, but I guess they missed something in the fine print.  Ukraine forces will get the upper hand, then Russia will invade all they way to Poland... no one wants WW3, but it is time to start getting ready to fight it.

These are the last days of the human race, and we will not survive them because we haven't done anything that merits our right to survive.  Just another blip in the universe.


We blew a perfectly good opportunity for another Iraq.
 
2014-07-29 12:26:00 PM  

nekom: I was born in 1980, just a child at the tail end of the cold war but I have since studied it extensively.  I really hope we're not heading back to that business.


Nah, time doesn't flow in reverse. It's more complex this time, with much of western Europe's natural gas being purchased from Russia. Also, Russia seems to be more open about its motives this time. It's not trying to bring countries into the benefits of what it calls a communistic Soviet society... This is straight up conquest.
 
2014-07-29 12:27:12 PM  

real_headhoncho: So we are finally admitting it is a war?  How long has it been since NATO and the EU threw Ukraine under the bus when Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea?  I mean, we made all these promises to Ukraine to give up their nukes, but I guess they missed something in the fine print.  Ukraine forces will get the upper hand, then Russia will invade all they way to Poland... no one wants WW3, but it is time to start getting ready to fight it.

These are the last days of the human race, and we will not survive them because we haven't done anything that merits our right to survive.  Just another blip in the universe.


Not to nitpick, but those agreements that Russia and the US signed in order to get Ukraine to give up their nukes have only been violated by the Russians.  Basically, both sides agreed not to invade their territory and in return, they gave up the nukes.  The US hasn't invaded their territory.  Russia, on the other hand....

And no.  The days when the Russian military was a threat died at about 1990.  If they invade Ukraine in earnest, NATO will tear them apart.  Of course, that would likely result in a nuclear response, but eh.  We're overdue.
 
2014-07-29 12:27:17 PM  
War doesn't look all that bad.


img.fark.net
 
2014-07-29 12:27:27 PM  

AirForceVet: Thanks, Russia, for reminding us why NATO exists.

/Thanks, Subby, for the post.


Look...we tried having other enemies.  They were all just too weird and hard for the media to boil down to a Twitter feed.  Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan...we just can't wrap our heads around how they could be our enemy yet hate each other and themselves with a passion too.  North Korea we could deal with, but other than shoot the ocean every few months, they really aren't all that exciting.  Russia, on the other hand, is very easy to demonize and we have all sorts of cold war propaganda to start a new media campaign with.
 
2014-07-29 12:34:56 PM  

real_headhoncho: So we are finally admitting it is a war?  How long has it been since NATO and the EU threw Ukraine under the bus when Russia invaded and annexed the Crimea?  I mean, we made all these promises to Ukraine to give up their nukes, but I guess they missed something in the fine print.  Ukraine forces will get the upper hand, then Russia will invade all they way to Poland... no one wants WW3, but it is time to start getting ready to fight it.

These are the last days of the human race, and we will not survive them because we haven't done anything that merits our right to survive.  Just another blip in the universe.


1-Not even Russia will blow up the world for the Ukraine. The Russians will put Putin's head on a spike if he lets this situation get to that point.

2-Bacon merits humanity's right to survive.

3-I think somebody may be lacing your weed.
 
2014-07-29 12:44:42 PM  

Infernalist: And no.  The days when the Russian military was a threat died at about 1990.  If they invade Ukraine in earnest, NATO will tear them apart.  Of course, that would likely result in a nuclear response, but eh.  We're overdue.


I dunno.  Ukraine isn't part of NATO, and hasn't really been a friend of the West for long.  (Basically, prior to the recent revolution, it was a friend of Russia.  That changing is why Russia invaded.)

We may give Ukraine arms (we already are giving them non-weapon assistance and intel), but the chances of NATO or US troops being on the ground in Ukraine is zero.
 
2014-07-29 12:52:02 PM  
Hmm, have anyone read the actual article? The author takes a deem view about future of Ukraine, even worse than I do.

Also, she is of pretty bad opinion of Ukrainian government. I'm posting the part here, because I have a feeling most people won't get to actually reading the article:

"But terror tactics and lies are not confined to one side or another in this war. The day after eight people were killed on Luhansk's central square, I was discussing with my friend,  New York Times reporter Sabrina Tavernise, whether it was a Ukrainian jet or rebels that had been shooting at the square.

Kyiv denied it was a jet, but when we arrived and saw the scene with our own eyes, the picture was more than clear: At least 21 craters were left by the rockets shot from the air. Later, the Western observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe confirmed that rockets from a plane hit the square.

If Kyiv could lie to us once, why could not they lie again?

I discussed that with a colleague from Human Rights Watch, Ole Solvang. Human Rights Watch documented at least four cases of Ukrainian forces being responsible for Grad unguided rockets falling on residential areas. "All evidence indicated that Ukrainian forces were behind Grad attacks," Solvang told me, but when I called the interior and defense ministries of Ukraine, they claimed they were serious about protecting civilians and that they never used Grad rockets in the cities.


Read more:  http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/eastern-ukraine-civil- w ar-109388_Page3.html#ixzz38sRIHHRJ  "

With behavior like this, it's pretty damn easy for Russia to run its propaganda.
 
2014-07-29 12:54:02 PM  
By "deem" I meant "dim". Sometimes my fingers just type faster than my brain.
 
2014-07-29 01:52:14 PM  

Muta: War doesn't look all that bad.


[img.fark.net image 575x431]


Oh sure, that's how they get you. At first it's all flowers and girls, then next thing you know everyone's trying to kill you!
 
2014-07-29 02:04:39 PM  

nekom: I was born in 1980, just a child at the tail end of the cold war but I have since studied it extensively.  I really hope we're not heading back to that business.


We are the last bit that remembers what nuclear wsr means. Any younger and that is something you were told you didnt have to worry about your whole life.

AIDS too. Kids aren't afraid of anything.
 
2014-07-29 02:16:24 PM  

Muta: War doesn't look all that bad.


[img.fark.net image 575x431]



Don't you get it, it's part of the war on TRADITIONAL FAMILY VALUES AND MORALS!!!!11!2@2!@3@34foursevenfive
 
2014-07-29 02:28:47 PM  
Obama really did a good job resetting relations with Russia. First he allowed Putin to invade Georgia with zero repercussions and then Crimea and now elsewhere in Ukraine.

This is just like the beginning days of WWII when Germany used the same excuse to invade neighboring countries.
 
2014-07-29 02:36:26 PM  

ferretman: Obama really did a good job resetting relations with Russia. First he allowed Putin to invade Georgia with zero repercussions and then Crimea and now elsewhere in Ukraine.

This is just like the beginning days of WWII when Germany used the same excuse to invade neighboring countries.


Uh, not to split hairs or anything, but Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, before the election that year.
 
2014-07-29 03:03:50 PM  

JonBuck: ferretman: Obama really did a good job resetting relations with Russia. First he allowed Putin to invade Georgia with zero repercussions and then Crimea and now elsewhere in Ukraine.

This is just like the beginning days of WWII when Germany used the same excuse to invade neighboring countries.

Uh, not to split hairs or anything, but Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, before the election that year.


If you're expecting ferretman to  not be a total moron, you're going to be sorely disappointed.
 
2014-07-29 03:39:09 PM  
I don't know what is worse in this thread, the Russian apologist that comes in every time this topic comes up or the rodent GOP that has no grasp at recent history.

Well it is actually the topic of the story that is worse and sad but the runner up I'm having a problem with.
 
2014-07-29 03:39:43 PM  

JonBuck: ferretman: Obama really did a good job resetting relations with Russia. First he allowed Putin to invade Georgia with zero repercussions and then Crimea and now elsewhere in Ukraine.

This is just like the beginning days of WWII when Germany used the same excuse to invade neighboring countries.

Uh, not to split hairs or anything, but Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, before the election that year.


And yet Americans still elected him!  Morans!
 
2014-07-29 03:44:14 PM  

All2morrowsparTs: I don't know what is worse in this thread, the Russian apologist that comes in every time this topic comes up or the rodent GOP that has no grasp at recent history.


Uuuh, uuuuh, let me guess: it's me! Because I've pointed out that the author of the article has her problems with Ukrainian government's behavior, that's somehow magically means that everything Russia have ever done is completely justified!

Hey, but at least my ignore list is growing. :)
 
2014-07-29 03:57:50 PM  

Grahor: All2morrowsparTs: I don't know what is worse in this thread, the Russian apologist that comes in every time this topic comes up or the rodent GOP that has no grasp at recent history.

Uuuh, uuuuh, let me guess: it's me! Because I've pointed out that the author of the article has her problems with Ukrainian government's behavior, that's somehow magically means that everything Russia have ever done is completely justified!

Hey, but at least my ignore list is growing. :)


Oh no, you misread, I did not use this post as a singular point of reference I'm talking about it in general from your posting history.

The Ukrainian state is not without blood on its hands but the clear aggressor in this conflict is Russia.

The arguments that you tend to make are at least on the surface seem to be deflecting from this fact if not outright defending their actions.

And I only ignore the obvious trolls and painful to read like the rodent boy.
 
2014-07-29 04:04:28 PM  

JonBuck: ferretman: Obama really did a good job resetting relations with Russia. First he allowed Putin to invade Georgia with zero repercussions and then Crimea and now elsewhere in Ukraine.

This is just like the beginning days of WWII when Germany used the same excuse to invade neighboring countries.

Uh, not to split hairs or anything, but Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, before the election that year.


And when Obama was sworn in he did nothing except have Hillary give Putin a misspelled 'Reset Button'.
 
2014-07-29 04:52:31 PM  

JonBuck: ferretman: Obama really did a good job resetting relations with Russia. First he allowed Putin to invade Georgia with zero repercussions and then Crimea and now elsewhere in Ukraine.

This is just like the beginning days of WWII when Germany used the same excuse to invade neighboring countries.

Uh, not to split hairs or anything, but Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, before the election that year.


ventrellaquest.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-07-29 05:59:12 PM  
Good, balanced article. Good journalism, it's nice to see. I can see why war breaking out suddenly like that can seem surreal.

On an unrelated note - fark needs an optional filter to auto-ignore the people who turn every freakin' thread into an American politics conversation.
 
2014-07-29 06:08:44 PM  
Why hasn't Timecop put a stop to Obama yet?
 
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