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(Major League Baseball)   What should you do if you try to steal second base and overslide the bag? A) Try to get back quickly, B) Resign yourself to being tagged out, C) Steal third base after escaping a rundown   ( mlb.com) divider line
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2217 clicks; posted to Sports » on 28 Jul 2014 at 2:08 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-28 12:47:03 PM  
Some see good base running, I see bad fielding.
 
2014-07-28 01:34:27 PM  
That was hilarious.
 
2014-07-28 01:55:28 PM  
Really bad fundamentals on the part of the defensive team. Doesn't anybody practice the run down play any more?
 
2014-07-28 02:12:13 PM  
The local commentators described it as taking advantage of the two "non-athletes" on the field.

/still don't know why he didn't continue to home.
 
2014-07-28 02:12:43 PM  

Delawheredad: Really bad fundamentals on the part of the defensive team. Doesn't anybody practice the run down play any more?


2 throws, MAX!

JC
 
2014-07-28 02:15:31 PM  
I have no idea what a Kahnle is, but he sucks at rundowns.

You force the runner back to the previous bag, throw behind him, and make a tag.  You don't just float the ball over there the second you get it.

In fact, blame the first thrower as well for just kinda floating it like you're appealing whether a guy left early on a sac fly.

Furthermore, just can Colorado's entire crowd of white guys who don't look terribly invested in giving a fark but look good in a uniform.
 
2014-07-28 02:17:53 PM  

rotsky: The local commentators described it as taking advantage of the two "non-athletes" on the field.

/still don't know why he didn't continue to home.


I think it's because he landed on third, and didn't know the ball was still free. By the time he got up, the defense recovered.
 
2014-07-28 02:26:02 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: Some see good base running, I see bad fielding.


Elementary in any sport, force the other team to make mistakes.
 
2014-07-28 02:26:29 PM  

Dafatone: I have no idea what a Kahnle is, but he sucks at rundowns.

You force the runner back to the previous bag, throw behind him, and make a tag.  You don't just float the ball over there the second you get it.

In fact, blame the first thrower as well for just kinda floating it like you're appealing whether a guy left early on a sac fly.

Furthermore, just can Colorado's entire crowd of white guys who don't look terribly invested in giving a fark but look good in a uniform.


First throw was okay, just getting the ball in front of the runner is key.   But yeah after that it looked like they were playing hot potato instead of trying to move him back to second and/or get an out.
 
2014-07-28 02:33:45 PM  
And that's the second time this season that he's done something similar.  The guy just plain hustles out there.
 
2014-07-28 02:34:44 PM  
At least he didn't run out of the baseline this time, and that's more due to bad fielding than good running.
 
2014-07-28 02:38:49 PM  

steamingpile: At least he didn't run out of the baseline this time, and that's more due to bad fielding than good running.


Last time was against the Mets, right?

Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.
 
2014-07-28 02:40:34 PM  
Dafatone:

Furthermore, just can Colorado's entire crowd of white guys who don't look terribly invested in giving a fark but look good in a uniform.

just can they what?

/Sorry I interrupted your racist rant.
 
2014-07-28 02:44:25 PM  

AllYourFarkAreBelongToMe: Dafatone:

Furthermore, just can Colorado's entire crowd of white guys who don't look terribly invested in giving a fark but look good in a uniform.

just can they what?

/Sorry I interrupted your racist rant.


Gasp!  I mentioned race!  Something racist must be going on!

/And I meant can as a verb, as in to fire or sack.  Granted, that was unclear.
 
2014-07-28 02:47:37 PM  

Dafatone: steamingpile: At least he didn't run out of the baseline this time, and that's more due to bad fielding than good running.

Last time was against the Mets, right?

Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.


Here it is.

Yeah, he may have been out of the baseline, but dude sure is fun to watch.
 
2014-07-28 02:50:29 PM  

jonathan_L: Dafatone: steamingpile: At least he didn't run out of the baseline this time, and that's more due to bad fielding than good running.

Last time was against the Mets, right?

Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

Here it is.

Yeah, he may have been out of the baseline, but dude sure is fun to watch.


That he is.  And yeah, he was out of the baseline.

Also, I know his helmet was slipping off so he just ditched it, but it kinda looks like he threw it in the way of the fielder.  Which would have been hilarious.
 
2014-07-28 03:18:24 PM  
Needs more Yakkity Sax.

/it might've, I have the sound down...
 
2014-07-28 03:28:40 PM  
Dafatone:
Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

which is partly true - you can run out of the baseline all you want unless it is to avoid a tag.
However, even in this case, had Rosario been in the baseline, even that much deviation from a direct route could have been interpreted as "out of the baseline".
 
2014-07-28 03:47:34 PM  

p0nk: Dafatone:
Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

which is partly true - you can run out of the baseline all you want unless it is to avoid a tag.
However, even in this case, had Rosario been in the baseline, even that much deviation from a direct route could have been interpreted as "out of the baseline".


On the play-by-play yesterday, in regards to the one against the Mets, they mentioned something about the defensive player establishing the base path by moving into the grass first, which is why Harrison was allowed to go there.

Sometimes you get the feeling baseball rules are designed to be vague enough to cover everyone's butt. Still, Harrison is awesome. He juked the hell out of Rosario. He could have gone home, but he looked pretty gassed. Stupid mile high atmosphere.
 
2014-07-28 03:52:59 PM  

p0nk: Dafatone:
Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

which is partly true - you can run out of the baseline all you want unless it is to avoid a tag.
However, even in this case, had Rosario been in the baseline, even that much deviation from a direct route could have been interpreted as "out of the baseline".


It's a judgment call no matter what, but the definition of "out of the base-path" isn't "moving out of a straight-line path between bases." It's moving substantially out of the straight-line path between  you and the base. For various reasons (e.g., slipping and sliding all over the place trying to avoid tags) you can get a little out of skew with the ideal base-path.

In the Mets example, he wasn't out because he ended up in the infield grass, he was safe because from there he lunged straight at the base. If he'd lunged to avoid a tag toward a point on the line between second and third, he'd have been out of the base-path even though he was moving closer to where he "should" have been.

The relevant rule is 7.08 (a)(1).  Any runner is out when -- He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner's baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely. So when you move 2' 11" and avoid a tag, you've got a whole new baseline. In practice an umpire will call you out on general principles before you can dodge your way into center field on successive tag attempts, but it looked like a good non-call in the Mets example.
 
2014-07-28 03:58:40 PM  

semiotix: p0nk: Dafatone:
Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

which is partly true - you can run out of the baseline all you want unless it is to avoid a tag.
However, even in this case, had Rosario been in the baseline, even that much deviation from a direct route could have been interpreted as "out of the baseline".

It's a judgment call no matter what, but the definition of "out of the base-path" isn't "moving out of a straight-line path between bases." It's moving substantially out of the straight-line path between  you and the base. For various reasons (e.g., slipping and sliding all over the place trying to avoid tags) you can get a little out of skew with the ideal base-path.

In the Mets example, he wasn't out because he ended up in the infield grass, he was safe because from there he lunged straight at the base. If he'd lunged to avoid a tag toward a point on the line between second and third, he'd have been out of the base-path even though he was moving closer to where he "should" have been.

The relevant rule is 7.08 (a)(1).  Any runner is out when -- He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner's baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely. So when you move 2' 11" and avoid a tag, you've got a whole new baseline. In practice an umpire will call you out on general principles before you can dodge your way into center field on successive tag attempts, but it looked like a good non-call in the Mets example.


Harrison is near the infield grass but not on it.  Then he dives into the grass to avoid a tag and goes directly from the grass to the base.

The question is whether or not he dove 3 feet from the initial near the grass position to the grass.  It's debatable.  Going straight to the base from there doesn't have much to do with it.  Neither does a fielder attempting to tag him in the grass.  The fielder (Tejada) chased him along his established base line, then turned inward when he dove into the grass, but didn't tag him.

The only question is how far towards the infield grass he dove.
 
2014-07-28 03:59:11 PM  
Also, looking at that Mets video again, the umpire probably also failed to call him out because Ruben Tejada, having missed the tag, immediately started whining to the ump for an out-of-baseline call  while there was still time to make another play. That was a chump move.

There is crying in baseball, but it's rarely rewarded.
 
2014-07-28 04:02:19 PM  
heh, they argued about this ALL NIGHT on MLBN the night it happened against the Mets
 
2014-07-28 04:12:06 PM  

semiotix: p0nk: Dafatone:
Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

which is partly true - you can run out of the baseline all you want unless it is to avoid a tag.
However, even in this case, had Rosario been in the baseline, even that much deviation from a direct route could have been interpreted as "out of the baseline".

It's a judgment call no matter what, but the definition of "out of the base-path" isn't "moving out of a straight-line path between bases." It's moving substantially out of the straight-line path between  you and the base. For various reasons (e.g., slipping and sliding all over the place trying to avoid tags) you can get a little out of skew with the ideal base-path.

In the Mets example, he wasn't out because he ended up in the infield grass, he was safe because from there he lunged straight at the base. If he'd lunged to avoid a tag toward a point on the line between second and third, he'd have been out of the base-path even though he was moving closer to where he "should" have been.

The relevant rule is 7.08 (a)(1).  Any runner is out when -- He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner's baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely. So when you move 2' 11" and avoid a tag, you've got a whole new baseline. In practice an umpire will call you out on general principles before you can dodge your way into center field on successive tag attempts, but it looked like a good non-call in the Mets example.


This is one of those baseball things where if the rule was just "If the runner touches the infield grass he is out" it would be much better, but everyone gets a tear in their eye and channels their inner Kevin Costner when they talk about "the human element needing to stay in the game"
 
2014-07-28 04:30:06 PM  

LemSkroob: This is one of those baseball things where if the rule was just "If the runner touches the infield grass he is out" it would be much better, but everyone gets a tear in their eye and channels their inner Kevin Costner when they talk about "the human element needing to stay in the game"


I agree with you in principle, but there are a few problems in practice. For instance, the location of the infield grass (or turf) isn't standardized, and some places don't even have dirt paths except right next to the bases. In amateur baseball, lots of fields don't have grass infields, and so forth.

In baseball, strict definitions can cause more problems than they solve. Case in point, what counts as the infield for the infield fly rule. If you make it about where precisely the ball lands, rather than letting the umpire identify what is or isn't a routine pop fly, it invites the very shenanigans the rule was meant to avoid.

I say I agree with you in principle because I'm a gigantic rules-lawyer, and I recognize that this makes me an asshole. I love baseball, but it actually provides very few opportunities for rules-lawyering in its current form. (Of course, Bud Selig is hard at work changing that with replay, but that's another argument.) If I want to be guaranteed a Talmudic debate once every game, I have to watch football.
 
2014-07-28 04:44:01 PM  

semiotix: Also, looking at that Mets video again, the umpire probably also failed to call him out because Ruben Tejada, having missed the tag, immediately started whining to the ump for an out-of-baseline call  while there was still time to make another play. That was a chump move.

There is crying in baseball, but it's rarely rewarded.An easy play at that


An easy play at that. He never has to chase in the first place - the runner from first is already at second - force play at third.
 
2014-07-28 04:55:31 PM  

Dafatone: In the Mets example, he wasn't out because he ended up in the infield grass, he was safe because from there he lunged straight at the base. If he'd lunged to avoid a tag toward a point on the line between second and third, he'd have been out of the base-path even though he was moving closer to where he "should" have been.

The relevant rule is 7.08 (a)(1). Any runner is out when -- He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner's baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely. So when you move 2' 11" and avoid a tag, you've got a whole new baseline. In practice an umpire will call you out on general principles before you can dodge your way into center field on successive tag attempts, but it looked like a good non-call in the Mets example.


Harrison is near the infield grass but not on it. Then he dives into the grass to avoid a tag and goes directly from the grass to the base.

The question is whether or not he dove 3 feet from the initial near the grass position to the grass. It's debatable. Going straight to the base from there doesn't have much to do with it. Neither does a fielder attempting to tag him in the grass. The fielder (Tejada) chased him along his established base line, then turned inward when he dove into the grass, but didn't tag him.

The only question is how far towards the infield grass he dove.


A composite of the Mets play.
I think the first dodge to avoid (on the left) he probably gets outside by three feet.
I get the rule interpretation and how this could be a correct no-call. Yet . . .
Somehow this is simultaneously a cool use of the rules and a complete mockery of them.

img.fark.net

/Runner on second is from the screen grab of the first dodge.
/No one calls the force
 
2014-07-28 05:21:30 PM  
Well I'll be.  That guy looked like an athlete playing baseball.

/I Miss Griffey.
 
2014-07-28 05:29:20 PM  

northgrave: semiotix: Also, looking at that Mets video again, the umpire probably also failed to call him out because Ruben Tejada, having missed the tag, immediately started whining to the ump for an out-of-baseline call  while there was still time to make another play. That was a chump move.

There is crying in baseball, but it's rarely rewarded.An easy play at that

An easy play at that. He never has to chase in the first place - the runner from first is already at second - force play at third.


Yeah, that's not how force plays work.
 
2014-07-28 06:36:30 PM  

vento: And that's the second time this season that he's done something similar.  The guy just plain hustles out there.


It's a 2nd time thing.

/3rd could be a charm
 
2014-07-28 06:38:31 PM  

Trainspotr: Yeah, that's not how force plays work.


I think they mean, throw the ball to third and "force" Harrison all the way back to second, putting two guys on second meaning one of them is out. Not a force play, but that'd be a thing you could do, and probably should have done, if you can't get Harrison out promptly.
 
2014-07-28 06:48:31 PM  

Trainspotr: northgrave: semiotix: Also, looking at that Mets video again, the umpire probably also failed to call him out because Ruben Tejada, having missed the tag, immediately started whining to the ump for an out-of-baseline call  while there was still time to make another play. That was a chump move.

There is crying in baseball, but it's rarely rewarded.An easy play at that

An easy play at that. He never has to chase in the first place - the runner from first is already at second - force play at third.

Yeah, that's not how force plays work.



"7.02
In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base. "

I guess - until the play is dead the runner on 2nd has the option to return to first (with first being empty).
 
2014-07-28 07:29:32 PM  

northgrave: I guess - until the play is dead the runner on 2nd has the option to return to first (with first being empty).


Yeah, but by going to second, the batter-runner is basically saying "one out and a runner on the same base is a good enough outcome for our team under the circumstances." (Which is smart, because you can't really expect the leading runner to get out of the jam.) By backtracking at that point, he'd be risking two outs and no baserunners.
 
2014-07-28 07:35:56 PM  

northgrave: Trainspotr: northgrave: semiotix: Also, looking at that Mets video again, the umpire probably also failed to call him out because Ruben Tejada, having missed the tag, immediately started whining to the ump for an out-of-baseline call  while there was still time to make another play. That was a chump move.

There is crying in baseball, but it's rarely rewarded.An easy play at that

An easy play at that. He never has to chase in the first place - the runner from first is already at second - force play at third.

Yeah, that's not how force plays work.


"7.02
In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base. "

I guess - until the play is dead the runner on 2nd has the option to return to first (with first being empty).


All I'm saying is, the runner has to be tagged out. There is no force at third just because the batter made it to second. Which is what it sounded like you were saying. Apologies if I misunderstood.
 
2014-07-28 07:40:45 PM  

semiotix: p0nk: Dafatone:
Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

which is partly true - you can run out of the baseline all you want unless it is to avoid a tag.
However, even in this case, had Rosario been in the baseline, even that much deviation from a direct route could have been interpreted as "out of the baseline".

It's a judgment call no matter what, but the definition of "out of the base-path" isn't "moving out of a straight-line path between bases." It's moving substantially out of the straight-line path between  you and the base. For various reasons (e.g., slipping and sliding all over the place trying to avoid tags) you can get a little out of skew with the ideal base-path.

In the Mets example, he wasn't out because he ended up in the infield grass, he was safe because from there he lunged straight at the base. If he'd lunged to avoid a tag toward a point on the line between second and third, he'd have been out of the base-path even though he was moving closer to where he "should" have been.

The relevant rule is 7.08 (a)(1).  Any runner is out when -- He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner's baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely. So when you move 2' 11" and avoid a tag, you've got a whole new baseline. In practice an umpire will call you out on general principles before you can dodge your way into center field on successive tag attempts, but it looked like a good non-call in the Mets example.


No, just no.

Using you definition the baseline can be anywhere and that's just wrong, he can have a slight deviation over the path that is a STRAIGHT line between the two bases but it does not move another 3' because the tag attempt was 2'11" over.

That far in the grass is way out of the basepath and he should have been called out on that play, here the players got lazy and the kid kept moving which is what your supposed to do.
 
2014-07-28 08:18:15 PM  

steamingpile: semiotix: p0nk: Dafatone:
Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

which is partly true - you can run out of the baseline all you want unless it is to avoid a tag.
However, even in this case, had Rosario been in the baseline, even that much deviation from a direct route could have been interpreted as "out of the baseline".

It's a judgment call no matter what, but the definition of "out of the base-path" isn't "moving out of a straight-line path between bases." It's moving substantially out of the straight-line path between  you and the base. For various reasons (e.g., slipping and sliding all over the place trying to avoid tags) you can get a little out of skew with the ideal base-path.

In the Mets example, he wasn't out because he ended up in the infield grass, he was safe because from there he lunged straight at the base. If he'd lunged to avoid a tag toward a point on the line between second and third, he'd have been out of the base-path even though he was moving closer to where he "should" have been.

The relevant rule is 7.08 (a)(1).  Any runner is out when -- He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner's baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely. So when you move 2' 11" and avoid a tag, you've got a whole new baseline. In practice an umpire will call you out on general principles before you can dodge your way into center field on successive tag attempts, but it looked like a good non-call in the Mets example.

No, just no.

Using you definition the baseline can be anywhere and that's just wrong, he can have a slight deviation over the path that is a STRAIGHT line between the two bases but it does not move another 3' becaus ...


If only the Official Baseball Rules (OBR) were posted online... like here... http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2014/official_baseball_rules.pdf Page 65 contains rule 7.08(a)(1). So, yes, if the batter wants to go run into the middle of the outfield, provided no play is being made on him, then yes, he can do that. Furthermore, no, the base path and the base line is not the same thing, and the base line (straight line between two bases) is only important for setting up the field of play and not determining the base path.
 
2014-07-28 08:52:08 PM  

steamingpile: No, just no.

Using you definition


My definition...? Whoa, did you just accuse me of being Bud Selig? Because if so, that may be the single most hurtful thing anyone's ever said to me on Fark. You  monster.
 
2014-07-28 09:08:16 PM  

steamingpile: Using you definition the baseline can be anywhere and that's just wrong, he can have a slight deviation over the path that is a STRAIGHT line between the two bases but it does not move another 3' because the tag attempt was 2'11" over.


1) You realize you're replying to a direct quote from the MLB rulebook, right?  That this isn't, like, his opinion, man.

2) If the rule was anything like the fever dream you had about it, umpires would be calling out batters left and right on every double and triple, as the batter typically veers well more than 3' outside the straight line between first and second on a hustle double.

3) The runner can also be called out for "obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base" under 7.08(a)(1), but that's not the case here either.
 
2014-07-28 09:22:52 PM  
The catcher threw to second late and high.

Then he fumbled the ball in the run-down and fell on his ass.

He'll be drinking late a few nights to get that one out of his head...when he's 60 years old.
 
2014-07-28 10:59:25 PM  

Trainspotr: northgrave: Trainspotr: northgrave: semiotix: Also, looking at that Mets video again, the umpire probably also failed to call him out because Ruben Tejada, having missed the tag, immediately started whining to the ump for an out-of-baseline call  while there was still time to make another play. That was a chump move.

There is crying in baseball, but it's rarely rewarded.An easy play at that

An easy play at that. He never has to chase in the first place - the runner from first is already at second - force play at third.

Yeah, that's not how force plays work.


"7.02
In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09. In such cases, the runner may go directly to his original base. "

I guess - until the play is dead the runner on 2nd has the option to return to first (with first being empty).

All I'm saying is, the runner has to be tagged out. There is no force at third just because the batter made it to second. Which is what it sounded like you were saying. Apologies if I misunderstood.


No - I had it wrong.

Thanks for the correction.
 
2014-07-29 01:48:54 AM  

jonathan_L: Dafatone: steamingpile: At least he didn't run out of the baseline this time, and that's more due to bad fielding than good running.

Last time was against the Mets, right?

Apparently the umpire told Terry Collins that Harrison wasn't out of the baseline because "nobody was attempting to tag him," even as he dove out of the way of a tag.

Here it is.

Yeah, he may have been out of the baseline, but dude sure is fun to watch.


The Mets player didn't attempt to make the tag until Harrison was already by him... the 3' running lane run doesn't go into effect until a tag attempt is being made. Therefore it is the proper call.
 
2014-07-29 01:52:21 AM  

northgrave: semiotix: Also, looking at that Mets video again, the umpire probably also failed to call him out because Ruben Tejada, having missed the tag, immediately started whining to the ump for an out-of-baseline call  while there was still time to make another play. That was a chump move.

There is crying in baseball, but it's rarely rewarded.An easy play at that

An easy play at that. He never has to chase in the first place - the runner from first is already at second - force play at third.


You have no clue what you're talking about
 
2014-07-29 01:15:11 PM  
Yakitysax.mp3
 
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