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(World Review)   China's military has been weakened by corruption, bureaucracy and political indoctrination, and their lack of experience and discipline is a serious danger to the Asia-Pacific region. However, what the PLA lacks in training, they make up in numbers   (worldreview.info) divider line 101
    More: Scary  
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1397 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Jul 2014 at 10:39 AM (20 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-28 09:48:32 AM  
Imagine those kinds of ground forces in a D-Day operation.
 
2014-07-28 10:41:47 AM  
Hey, they're all pretty decent at Kung Fu and that can be bad.  But on the officers are trained in White Lotus and compete in the Kumite (hoo-ya! *smack!*)...
 
2014-07-28 10:42:05 AM  
It's always been that way.
 
2014-07-28 10:43:46 AM  
So essentially the Soviet Army under Stalin around 1940?
 
2014-07-28 10:45:19 AM  
Taiwan and a lot of places there would be farked if China actually wanted to destabilize the region and damage economic ties with everyone.

For now they're enjoying the minimal repercussions from dick waving.
 
2014-07-28 10:46:12 AM  
Any argument about China should really conclude, "There's a billion and a half of them."
 
2014-07-28 10:47:52 AM  
 Western sources estimate the Chinese army suffered about 400,000 killed and 486,000 wounded in the Korean war.

They may have large numbers but even in a non-nuclear engagement they lost many many people.

/artillery yes but also bang bang, stabbity stab, club club, grenade grenade, conflict
 
2014-07-28 10:52:17 AM  

DeaH: Imagine those kinds of ground forces in a D-Day operation.


... you realize that D-day barely worked even with 1940s technology and the Allies having such a massive counterintelligence advantage that the Axis hadn't even invented counterintelligence yet (and just took whatever misinformation they were given at face value), right?

Increasing the manpower of a similar operation in modern context just means more dead bodies floating in the water while the completely untouched soldiers in the coastal fortifications exchange disbelieving glances and shrug kind of uncomfortably.  Maybe you'll manage to slightly damage the coastal fishing industry for a month, that's about it.

They're not really a danger to anyplace that involves crossing water to get there.  I suppose they could probably swamp southeast Asia and maybe have a go at pissing India off (because with them both having nukes  that would end hella well)... and that's about it.  Or they could send them into Russia and the Russians could shrug and ignore them, then come in and mop up the eight or ten that didn't freeze to death due to being poorly equipped in the spring.

Basically, China is threatening in a number of contexts, but 'military' is not really one of those.  Military man-power isn't really a  thing anymore, too many force multipliers with large factors coming into a straight-up fight.  It'd help them a lot if  we invaded  them, but not really the other way around.  The foot soldier is not really a modern offensive weapon, their role is to hold and defend territory gained primarily from dropping shiat on it from the goddamned sky.
 
2014-07-28 10:52:34 AM  
Keep in mind too that Communist armies have a singular problem: if the plan doesn't go according to plan, or the enemy (through treason or incompetence) doesn't cooperate, they tend to have real difficulties in coping.  Initiative is not something that Communist militaries tend to foster.

/Not saying there's no threat, just saying keep it in perspective
 
2014-07-28 10:55:44 AM  

blunttrauma: So essentially the Soviet Army under Stalin around 1940?


Or the US army, I dunno, Now. How much does the DoD waste on corrupt contracts that go nowhere to fund their friends? And how many choppers went down in Afghanistan due solely to pilot error? How many people were properly trained in firearm maintenance in a dusty environment in that first year?

AtlanticCoast63: Keep in mind too that Communist armies have a singular problem: if the plan doesn't go according to plan, or the enemy (through treason or incompetence) doesn't cooperate, they tend to have real difficulties in coping.  Initiative is not something that Communist militaries tend to foster.

/Not saying there's no threat, just saying keep it in perspective


Go back to the '60s with that "OMG THE COMMIES ARE ALL INEPT" crap.
 
2014-07-28 10:56:23 AM  
So, should I panic or no?
 
2014-07-28 10:57:01 AM  
Chinese soldiers entering into the PLA swear their allegiance to the Communist Party, not to the People's Republic of China.

Has anyone told the PLA that China isn't really communist country any more?
 
2014-07-28 10:57:02 AM  
A "human wave" attack? How quaint.
a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com
 
2014-07-28 10:57:11 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Western sources estimate the Chinese army suffered about 400,000 killed and 486,000 wounded in the Korean war.

They may have large numbers but even in a non-nuclear engagement they lost many many people.

/artillery yes but also bang bang, stabbity stab, club club, grenade grenade, conflict


The Chinese had numbers but no air support and horrible logistics.  The allies eventually figured out that you could beat them by dropping airborne units into strategic positions, resupplying them from air, and then waiting a few days for the Chinese attacks to burn themselves out.  Unfortunately, numbers and superior defense prevented the allies from translating those advantages into offensive progress.
 
2014-07-28 10:59:15 AM  

meat0918: Taiwan and a lot of places there would be farked if China actually wanted to destabilize the region and damage economic ties with everyone.

For now they're enjoying the minimal repercussions from dick waving.


China would be among the "a lot of places" that would be farked if they chose to destabilize the region.  They have as much, if not more, to lose as anyone.
 
2014-07-28 11:01:09 AM  
the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?
 
2014-07-28 11:01:50 AM  

DeaH: Imagine those kinds of ground forces in a D-Day operation.


With modern technology, the element of surprise in an operation that size would be Nil.

They would be seen coming days or weeks in advance.

They would be slaughtered before they hit the beach.

The days of large amphibious assault are over.
 
2014-07-28 11:02:13 AM  

quatchi: Chinese soldiers entering into the PLA swear their allegiance to the Communist Party, not to the People's Republic of China.

Has anyone told the PLA that China isn't really communist country any more?


Communist or not, the party apparently has a board member on every Chinese corporation. Additionally, the Communist (?) Party is cracking down hard on Christianity now. Which might be construed as Communists getting rid of the opiate of the masses.
 
2014-07-28 11:06:18 AM  

Stratohead: the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?


I asked myself where the world would prefer a first strike nuclear attack land. I've decided the entire world (excluding Canada perhaps) would prefer if the relatively isolated North America should be on the receiving end of a massive nuclear first strike. Most of the world's population would be a half a world away, much of it outside of the normal weather drift patterns.

So I figure if things go crazy most of the world would prefer us losing quickly and just keeping our fallout to ourselves.

/man this is good weed
 
2014-07-28 11:06:19 AM  
us.battle.net
 
2014-07-28 11:07:00 AM  

vharshyde: Go back to the '60s with that "OMG THE COMMIES ARE ALL INEPT" crap.


it's not "inept", and it's not "commies"

authoritarian governments put way too much politics in their military (especially among officers), and it creates natural issues with both capability and initiative. the officers are selected more for their adherence to authority rather than their capability on the battlefield.

and it's for a good reason - if you don't prune the smart ones, you risk a coup
 
2014-07-28 11:14:43 AM  

Jim_Callahan: ... you realize that D-day barely worked even with 1940s technology and the Allies having such a massive counterintelligence advantage that the Axis hadn't even invented counterintelligence yet (and just took whatever misinformation they were given at face value), right?


It also included complete control of the air and sea, which China isn't capable of.
 
2014-07-28 11:15:37 AM  

sprawl15: vharshyde: Go back to the '60s with that "OMG THE COMMIES ARE ALL INEPT" crap.

it's not "inept", and it's not "commies"

authoritarian governments put way too much politics in their military (especially among officers), and it creates natural issues with both capability and initiative. the officers are selected more for their adherence to authority rather than their capability on the battlefield.

and it's for a good reason - if you don't prune the smart ones, you risk a coup


If your command structure contains "Zampolit", your army sucks.
 
2014-07-28 11:31:47 AM  
THAT PLA? The one that had their asses handed to them so badly by the Vietnamese in 1980?
 
2014-07-28 11:33:56 AM  

Kevin72: THAT PLA? The one that had their asses handed to them so badly by the Vietnamese in 1980?


My understanding is the PLA declared victory and ran away to their own borders. That sure showed them Soviets.
 
2014-07-28 11:36:49 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: quatchi: Chinese soldiers entering into the PLA swear their allegiance to the Communist Party, not to the People's Republic of China.

Has anyone told the PLA that China isn't really communist country any more?

Communist or not, the party apparently has a board member on every Chinese corporation. Additionally, the Communist (?) Party is cracking down hard on Christianity now. Which might be construed as Communists getting rid of the opiate of the masses.


Communists, some hard socialists and statists have merely replaced God with the state for their opiate.  The faith such people put on the government truly makes it a religion.  While I may be able to swallow the idea of a burning bush or a man being swallowed by a whale and surviving, the notion that a large corrupt government can provide a civilization with all of its needs in a fair and just environment is just a little too much shiat for me to take.
 
2014-07-28 11:44:01 AM  
If they all jumped up off of the ground at once it would change the orbit of the earth.
 
2014-07-28 11:44:19 AM  
Did the scary tag replace the obvious tag?
 
2014-07-28 11:48:33 AM  

give me doughnuts: sprawl15: vharshyde: Go back to the '60s with that "OMG THE COMMIES ARE ALL INEPT" crap.

it's not "inept", and it's not "commies"

authoritarian governments put way too much politics in their military (especially among officers), and it creates natural issues with both capability and initiative. the officers are selected more for their adherence to authority rather than their capability on the battlefield.

and it's for a good reason - if you don't prune the smart ones, you risk a coup

If your command structure contains "Zampolit", your army sucks.


i.imgur.com

oh, zampolit, my mistake
 
2014-07-28 11:52:34 AM  

rzrwiresunrise: [us.battle.net image 472x254]


But even the Swarm has significant airpower through mutalisks.

/ but a PLA with Ultralisks would be scary as fark
// I gotta quit sniffing glue
 
2014-07-28 11:52:38 AM  
ahhhhhhh.........that's Communist China, according to CIA.gov


the reason our Crony Capitalist Masters have changed it to plain ole' China is because it looks bad when a Crony Capitalist Freedom loving Nation like 'murica exploits cheap communist chinese labor for its Stockholder's/owner's profit.

it just looks bad.  Image is everything.
 
2014-07-28 11:55:23 AM  

Stratohead: the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?



well, we may not. but they are a Communist State.  and Walmart (and many others) would sure be hurting if we did go to war with Red China.

and walmart's stockholders would really be pissed.
 
2014-07-28 11:56:36 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: quatchi: Chinese soldiers entering into the PLA swear their allegiance to the Communist Party, not to the People's Republic of China.

Has anyone told the PLA that China isn't really communist country any more?

Communist or not, the party apparently has a board member on every Chinese corporation. Additionally, the Communist (?) Party is cracking down hard on Christianity now. Which might be construed as Communists getting rid of the opiate of the masses.


They are definitely authoritarians. One party rule in close collaboration with corporations is more like fascism than communism in my opinion.

Yeah, been reading recently about the recent Chinese church demolition campaign in Wenzhou, aka "China's Jerusalem". Draconian stuff.

Basically I feel the same about making religion illegal as I do about making it compulsory but the Chinese state apparently is a jealous God that will allow no competition.
 
2014-07-28 11:58:57 AM  

quatchi: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: quatchi: Chinese soldiers entering into the PLA swear their allegiance to the Communist Party, not to the People's Republic of China.

Has anyone told the PLA that China isn't really communist country any more?

Communist or not, the party apparently has a board member on every Chinese corporation. Additionally, the Communist (?) Party is cracking down hard on Christianity now. Which might be construed as Communists getting rid of the opiate of the masses.

They are definitely authoritarians. One party rule in close collaboration with corporations is more like fascism than communism in my opinion.

Yeah, been reading recently about the recent Chinese church demolition campaign in Wenzhou, aka "China's Jerusalem". Draconian stuff.

Basically I feel the same about making religion illegal as I do about making it compulsory but the Chinese state apparently is a jealous God that will allow no competition.



under a [Crony] Capitalist system, man exploits man,
under a communist one, it's just the opposite.             ---american economist john kenneth galbraith.
 
2014-07-28 12:00:20 PM  

Stratohead: the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?


The answer is never. They have nothing to gain. We're already giving them money for cheap manufactured goods. They have food and gasoline and a functioning govt.

The logistics if moving that many people is not easy. And there's no way to hide it. We'd see it from space.
 
2014-07-28 12:02:09 PM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: Western sources estimate the Chinese army suffered about 400,000 killed and 486,000 wounded in the Korean war.

They may have large numbers but even in a non-nuclear engagement they lost many many people.



Didn't China invade Viet Nam shortly after we left and lost about 20,000 in 3 weeks?
 
2014-07-28 12:02:27 PM  

Stratohead: the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?


That'll always be the dream.
 
2014-07-28 12:03:20 PM  

Linux_Yes: Stratohead: the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?


well, we may not. but they are a Communist State.  and Walmart (and many others) would sure be hurting if we did go to war with Red China.

and walmart's stockholders would really be pissed.


Too many of America's and China's "1%" would have too much to lose for those two countries to ever go to war.
 
2014-07-28 12:07:29 PM  
China doesn't need aircraft carriers, next generation fighter jets or armor, and any of the other toys that are the hallmarks of the US defense industry.  China can do more damage to the United States and the West with a few carefully worded statements in a financial news tracking source than any cruise missile they could lob at us from a submarine.  And just ask US steel or other sectors what kind of influence the Chinese State has when they act through "private" firms to organize "dumping" campaigns.

We need to stop basing our foreign policy decisions on military dick measuring and start focusing on who can crash our capital markets, pull the bottom out of our commodities markets, drive unemployment into the double-digits, etc. almost overnight.  Having the best and most advanced weapons doesn't do you much good if a quarter or more of the population suddenly finds themselves out of work and not knowing how they're going to put food on the table or keep a roof over their heads.  China, acting independently, could initiate another recession that would make the Great Recession seam tame, but hey-they don't have a "blue water navy" worth speaking of, so we're still able to kick their ass anytime we want, right?
 
2014-07-28 12:12:50 PM  
There is some cause for concern.  China's got a pretty big population issue: namely, there's a lot of young men who aren't getting laid.  That tends to make folk teste and prone to aggression.
 
2014-07-28 12:18:17 PM  
All that really matters is how good their NCOs and Louies are. The average conscript just needs to get drilled to proficency with the weapons and obeying commands. If I were in charge, I'd cycle thru the officer corps and make them do three months on the Long March trail. Get some history and endurance in them, that's what they need.

/dnrfta
 
2014-07-28 12:20:26 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: Linux_Yes: Stratohead: the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?


well, we may not. but they are a Communist State.  and Walmart (and many others) would sure be hurting if we did go to war with Red China.

and walmart's stockholders would really be pissed.

Too many of America's and China's "1%" would have too much to lose for those two countries to ever go to war.


Yep, for good or bad the world's economy is pretty tied together. Witness Putin and the sanctions there.
 
2014-07-28 12:37:32 PM  
What, no "600 million screaming Chinamen" reference yet?

img.fark.net

http://youtu.be/5Qc8jJ0TjSY?t=2m25s
 
2014-07-28 12:40:48 PM  
The problem with that tactic boils down to the fact that as bad as our economic collapse would be for us it would be far worse for them. They're entire economy consists of an enormous bubble propped up by government manipulation. Its not stable enough to survive without the US economy to keep it grounded. The last thing China wants is millions of unemployed, bored and angry young men milling about in their country.
 
2014-07-28 12:59:37 PM  

Parthenogenetic: What, no "600 million screaming Chinamen" reference yet?

[img.fark.net image 262x192]

http://youtu.be/5Qc8jJ0TjSY?t=2m25s


Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen.
 
2014-07-28 01:00:32 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: Linux_Yes: Stratohead: the question is not "IF" we go to war with China...but more "WHEN"?


well, we may not. but they are a Communist State.  and Walmart (and many others) would sure be hurting if we did go to war with Red China.

and walmart's stockholders would really be pissed.

Too many of America's and China's "1%" would have too much to lose for those two countries to ever go to war.


...which is why the 1% are doing their best to accumulate as much wealth as possible at the peril of the lower classes.
 
2014-07-28 01:03:14 PM  

Publikwerks: Parthenogenetic: What, no "600 million screaming Chinamen" reference yet?

[img.fark.net image 262x192]

http://youtu.be/5Qc8jJ0TjSY?t=2m25s

Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen.


There was
 
2014-07-28 01:07:01 PM  
They don't need carriers, they have a new missile with 1,000 mile range capable of striking our aircraft carriers.  The carriers have to get in that range to operate their planes against China without refueling.

Oh and the missiles cost only 14 million dollars or so and are fired from the back of a truck.  We lose just one carrier with 5,000 sailors on it and things will get pear-shaped fast.
 
2014-07-28 01:07:43 PM  

Publikwerks: Parthenogenetic: What, no "600 million screaming Chinamen" reference yet?

[img.fark.net image 262x192]

http://youtu.be/5Qc8jJ0TjSY?t=2m25s

Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen.


With a current population of 1.36 billion, and a gender ratio of about 1.1 males per female, it would be more accurate to say "Alpproximately 700 million screaming ChinaMEN."
 
2014-07-28 01:07:53 PM  

paganj: The problem with that tactic boils down to the fact that as bad as our economic collapse would be for us it would be far worse for them. They're entire economy consists of an enormous bubble propped up by government manipulation. Its not stable enough to survive without the US economy to keep it grounded. The last thing China wants is millions of unemployed, bored and angry young men milling about in their country.


Maybe 10 years ago.  In the meantime, China has been investing in Africa, South America, and strengthening ties with both Eastern and Western Europe.  And while they've been rattling sabers with one hand they've been shaking hands with the other as to their neighbors in the Pacific Rim.  They would take a huge hit if they decided to go to war with the United States economically-no doubt.  But the key distinction is that one half of our government yells and screams when the other half tries to pivot from shoring up our military influence on the world stage to strengthening our financial influence, while at the same time the Chinese and other nations are doing the opposite.

The time isn't too far in the future when the US Dollar could be replaced as the default reserve currency, and the primary capital, commodities, and other markets could be moved from Wall Street and Chicago to London or Hong Kong.  We've enjoyed decades of global financial dominance, but that position isn't guaranteed despite the full-throated rhetoric about "American exceptionalism".  And even the business leaders in this country can't do anything meaningful to delay or prepare for that contingency, despite their lobbyists and other interests, due to the TEA GOP in the House and Senate.
 
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