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(Abc.net.au)   Muscle memory gets some fancy scientific validation. Subby even typed this without thinking   (abc.net.au) divider line 34
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1416 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Jul 2014 at 9:23 PM (8 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-26 08:12:13 PM
'He's an idiot but can kick a ball really good.'

??
 
2014-07-26 08:16:43 PM
I've been a programmer most of my life and still hunt and peck when I type. I don't think I have the muscle memory thing.
 
2014-07-26 09:32:00 PM

SecretAgentWoman: 'He's an idiot but can kick a ball really good.'

??


He sure plays a mean pig ball?
 
2014-07-26 09:40:11 PM
I type all my submissions without thinking, just like everybody else here Carriage Return Line Feed. Slashy comment Carriage Return Line Feed Add comment
 
2014-07-26 09:56:15 PM

Mugato: I've been a programmer most of my life and still hunt and peck when I type. I don't think I have the muscle memory thing.


Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

/I can also type on my iPhone's touch screen keyboard without looking at the screen and requiring only minimal use of auto correct
 
2014-07-26 10:08:31 PM

Delta1212: Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.


Yeah I guess I can too but it bugs me that I never learned the correct hand positioning thing.
 
2014-07-26 10:10:05 PM

Delta1212: Mugato: I've been a programmer most of my life and still hunt and peck when I type. I don't think I have the muscle memory thing.

Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

/I can also type on my iPhone's touch screen keyboard without looking at the screen and requiring only minimal use of auto correct


The same thing used to go with phone numbers back before cell phones. You learn the patter of the number you're dialing.


/when was the last time you accually "dialed" a phone?
//the telco I worked for did not support pulse dialing be default. Of the 10k + lines, no one had requested it to be turned on
 
2014-07-26 10:21:41 PM

Mugato: Delta1212: Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

Yeah I guess I can too but it bugs me that I never learned the correct hand positioning thing.


Most people never need to learn it.  How often do you really need to type faster than 30 wpm?
 
2014-07-26 10:30:09 PM

Smeggy Smurf: Mugato: Delta1212: Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

Yeah I guess I can too but it bugs me that I never learned the correct hand positioning thing.

Most people never need to learn it.  How often do you really need to type faster than 30 wpm?


All the time?

People that never learned to type like to pretend that it's not a useful skill, when in fact, it's an INCREDIBLY useful skill. One that is easy to learn, too.

Learn how to farking type.
 
2014-07-26 10:35:18 PM
My muscle memory needs constant reassurance. It has an issue with self confidence. This is why I can type 90 WPM with the "random fingers all over the place" method, while looking away causes my computer to catch fire.

Dictation I can do great, but transcription? Hell no. I'm busy looking back and forth between the text and the keys.
 
2014-07-26 10:43:28 PM

Mugato: Delta1212: Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

Yeah I guess I can too but it bugs me that I never learned the correct hand positioning thing.


You can get free touch typing programs on-line - one really isn't much better than the other. In probably 10 hours of practice, I bet you could get to 40 wpm. And as long as you're starting from scratch, try Dvorak.
 
2014-07-26 10:52:28 PM
i291.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-26 10:55:35 PM
Makes me wonder if the brain has some kind of macro storage.

/not a scientist
//obviously
 
2014-07-26 11:18:18 PM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Mugato: Delta1212: Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

Yeah I guess I can too but it bugs me that I never learned the correct hand positioning thing.

You can get free touch typing programs on-line - one really isn't much better than the other. In probably 10 hours of practice, I bet you could get to 40 wpm. And as long as you're starting from scratch, try Dvorak.


... if you never want to type on a keyboard in public, in the United States, sure. Individual styles are great in isolation, but if you're going to learn your first set of keyboarding skills, learn QWERTY first. Then learn Dvorak - Dvorak keyboards rock, but finding them in the wild isn't as common as it should be, to be honest. (And remapping a QWERTY keyboard to Dvorak is likely to get you beaten about the head and shoulders by the mailed fist of your sysadmin.)

Disclaimer: I use both, as well as a chording keyboard (left BAT) - used to work with disabled folks.
 
2014-07-26 11:28:18 PM
I learned to type by playing daoc drunk and in the dark.
 
2014-07-26 11:39:35 PM

Delta1212: Mugato: I've been a programmer most of my life and still hunt and peck when I type. I don't think I have the muscle memory thing.

Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

/I can also type on my iPhone's touch screen keyboard without looking at the screen and requiring only minimal use of auto correct


I literally don't know what some of my passwords even ARE, but i can login with no problem because my fingers know what to do.... First discovered while on the phone with IT support... He was like, "whats your password, and i was like, "hold on"... and had to back engineer what i was even typing.
 
2014-07-27 01:07:44 AM
Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich:

You can get free touch typing programs on-line - one really isn't much better than the other. In probably 10 hours of practice, I bet you could get to 40 wpm.

The  problem is that muscle memory is opposed to creativity. I read a good quote about muscle memory recently, "muscle memory is simply having done something so many times that you don't have to think about it. Thus, the only way to build muscle memory is........to have done it so many times that you don't have to think about it." The hard part about muscle memory is that is is boring to build. It's like learning to play a musical instrument; one has to do the same god damn thing over and over and over again thousands to hundred of thousands of times.

This is one of the main reasons that Germany is so powerful in soccer--they have a great youth development program. By the time someone gets to the national squad at age 20 they have already put in their 10,000 hour, sometimes more.
 
2014-07-27 02:17:26 AM

Mugato: I've been a programmer most of my life and still hunt and peck when I type. I don't think I have the muscle memory thing.


I've been a programmer for about 40 years and when I'm on a roll I can push 200 words a minute while holding a conversation with someone. Many times when I'm working on documentation, I'll rest my eyes and type for perhaps 5 minutes with my eyes closed.

Some time ago, someone came to my cube and said they have never heard anyone typing rhythmically and they were hearing a song somehow through my typing. I did not realize that I was doing it. I had my headphones on listening to some classical music and it was affecting my typing enough that someone could recognize a song.
 
2014-07-27 02:58:07 AM

worlddan: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich:

You can get free touch typing programs on-line - one really isn't much better than the other. In probably 10 hours of practice, I bet you could get to 40 wpm.

The  problem is that muscle memory is opposed to creativity. I read a good quote about muscle memory recently, "muscle memory is simply having done something so many times that you don't have to think about it. Thus, the only way to build muscle memory is........to have done it so many times that you don't have to think about it." The hard part about muscle memory is that is is boring to build. It's like learning to play a musical instrument; one has to do the same god damn thing over and over and over again thousands to hundred of thousands of times.

This is one of the main reasons that Germany is so powerful in soccer--they have a great youth development program. By the time someone gets to the national squad at age 20 they have already put in their 10,000 hour, sometimes more.


Training is only part of performance. Be that in a sport, be that in sparring or fighting, be that the sort of muscle memory involved in cooking--yes, Virginia, you cut enough vegetables and trim enough meat, you don't have to think about it, your hands just bone the damn bird and you can talk and goof around and NOT cut yourself--and your example with musicians, is likewise to the point about reducing thought process. Which frees one from having to think about how to reach that next finger position or compress your mouth and place your tongue to create a note that you want when playing said instrument, you just do what you feel is right to get to the place you want to go.

Muscle memory IS boring to train, if you are looking to train for something you don't enjoy. In kata, you're looking to remove conscious thought, and simply act. You train again and again, so that your body understands exactly what is going on, and then you free yourself up so that the brain doesn't have to actively say, "Hey, he's going to shift his weight now, and if you stay here, you're going to get thrown down and it's going to suck." You understand what comes next from experience and less than conscious thought, and your respond naturally. Even to varied stimuli that go under conscious thought. A hand comes at you, at a certain angle, your body is already moving by the time your conscious brain recognizes the movement.

They say that in order to become a professional tennis player of any worth, you have to train your reflexes at an early age. You have to set patterns, you have to set that muscle memory, at a time when it becomes simply instinct. You don't register at a conscious level doing so, but the body and your reflexes are honed to the point, where you take very tiny cues, and react to them, based on repetition, and experience, and that has to be set early. Otherwise, you'll never get it to the point where you can compete with folks who have. That doesn't cancel out creativity or talent, but simply reduces distractions, and allows the subconscious to evaluate and respond, and leave your conscious mind to worry about other stuff.

When I'm cooking, I don't think about how to peel, or slice, or even bother with measuring a lot of stuff. My hands do the work, while I'm thinking about what we're going to do about all those snow peas that just came in, or possibly the pork tenderloins later in the week. My hands and body can do the simple work, without a lot of conscious effort on my part. I'm not thinking, "Now I have to add the cream and reduce..." I'm just making an Alfredo, and looking up at the tickets above my head, so that I can see what in the heck this Alfredo is going with at the table, so I can check with my grill guy if he's close. The fun, and the creativity comes in when your body is trained to the point, where it does the simple stuff, so that you can add a step or two, or pare the steps down a bit, and do so without really thinking about it. Be that with a pen and pencil to create art, be that kicking a ball down a field, be that writing and typing--the hands do the work, so that the brain can just do its thing. That frees the mind from simple tasks, so that it can focus on others. Building that muscle memory gives you more freedom and allows creative types to do more, because they're not worrying about the niggling steps in between, they're worried about other things, and expecting the body to perform the task without thought.

Creativity isn't about ignoring rules, it's about having the freedom to perform tasks, and do so in a way that perhaps breaks conventions, while still performing tasks at a high level of competence. You build that competence by practice. A lot of it. You have to be able to perform a task with some skill BEFORE you can break the rules, because that competence breeds understanding, and the creative part happens when you're not worried about HOW to perform the task, but you just do it and it flows, and it flows because you have a greater than basic competence. You have to have that competence borne of practice first, before you can truly be creative. Be that in writing, be that sports, be that in cooking, be that in any skill set. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice. Building muscle memory isn't the reverse of creativity, it is having done the work so that you can free yourself of having to think about a task without squandering effort on HOW to accomplish it, and simply do it, and do it in the way you want, as opposed to breaking it down in sections and task sets, and just let it flow.
 
2014-07-27 03:32:16 AM
I'm guessing subby does a lot of things without thinking.
 
2014-07-27 04:05:52 AM
T.rex
I literally don't know what some of my passwords even ARE, but i can login with no problem because my fingers know what to do.... First discovered while on the phone with IT support... He was like, "whats your password, and i was like, "hold on"... and had to back engineer what i was even typing.


Reminds me of me a couple of years ago.
My brain must have hit a bad sector that day, because I seemed to have forgotten the password for my computer which I hadn't changed in ages; I must have gotten it mixed up with a previous version or a bunch of other daily used passwords.
Getting only my brain to remember it was pointless and after 20 minutes I sat there typing or pretend-typing with closed eyes to find a sequence of familiar finger movements that felt right, but wasn't one the other passwords.


/ the other odd thing is that my last name is a real word plus an additional letter and 50% of the time when I need to type that real word, I've already typed my last name and need to remove that letter
 
2014-07-27 04:37:28 AM

T.rex: I literally don't know what some of my passwords even ARE, but i can login with no problem because my fingers know what to do.... First discovered while on the phone with IT support... He was like, "whats your password, and i was like, "hold on"... and had to back engineer what i was even typing.


Had that happen tonight. At a friend's, asked for her Amazon password. She said, "...I dunno... hold on..." and mooched me away from the keyboard and plocked away.

As a kid, I once tried to dial home to tell my mom I wasn't going to be home for dinner; I called my friend's mom -- the mom who was going to be feeding me for dinner -- instead. I never really had to call him, but I called my friend a lot. So....

/true but boring story
 
2014-07-27 06:32:23 AM

devine: Delta1212: Mugato: I've been a programmer most of my life and still hunt and peck when I type. I don't think I have the muscle memory thing.

Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

/I can also type on my iPhone's touch screen keyboard without looking at the screen and requiring only minimal use of auto correct

The same thing used to go with phone numbers back before cell phones. You learn the patter of the number you're dialing.


/when was the last time you accually "dialed" a phone?
//the telco I worked for did not support pulse dialing be default. Of the 10k + lines, no one had requested it to be turned on


POTS  always supports pulse dialing even if they say that it is 'turned off'. If their computerized switch didn't allow it at all times, that company was probably in violation of several laws. If it was the USA, then they were definitely violating federal and state laws while asking for Uncle Charlie to kick them in the tender bits.
 
2014-07-27 08:46:18 AM

devine: Delta1212: Mugato: I've been a programmer most of my life and still hunt and peck when I type. I don't think I have the muscle memory thing.

Really? I do the hunt and peck thing, too, but there are a lot of phrases, especially passwords, that I can dance my fingers over very quickly without thinking, and that's without putting my hands in that proper typing position I never bothered to learn.

/I can also type on my iPhone's touch screen keyboard without looking at the screen and requiring only minimal use of auto correct

The same thing used to go with phone numbers back before cell phones. You learn the patter of the number you're dialing.


/when was the last time you accually "dialed" a phone?
//the telco I worked for did not support pulse dialing be default. Of the 10k + lines, no one had requested it to be turned on


How qauint, you call 10000+ lines a Telco.  Traditional systems have always supported pulse, only VOIP does not.
 
2014-07-27 10:35:08 AM

Smeggy Smurf: Most people never need to learn it. How often do you really need to type faster than 30 wpm?


It's not just the faster typing but a touch typist hardly thinks about what they are doing.  It leaves you free to think about what you're typing.  It also means you don't have to take your eyes off the screen--you're much more likely to catch an error when you make it.

I also find it useful in MMOs if my wife is asleep and I don't want to use my mic.
 
2014-07-27 12:30:29 PM

Loren: Smeggy Smurf: Most people never need to learn it. How often do you really need to type faster than 30 wpm?

It's not just the faster typing but a touch typist hardly thinks about what they are doing.  It leaves you free to think about what you're typing.  It also means you don't have to take your eyes off the screen--you're much more likely to catch an error when you make it.

I also find it useful in MMOs if my wife is asleep and I don't want to use my mic.


I honestly don't know how I type, all I know is I get comments to the effect of "What the fark, how do you type that fast?" I sometimes get screwed when I change my keyboard out, but my "slow" speed is ~70 wpm. I don't have to look at the keyboard either. All I know is I use pinkies basically only for shift and it depends on where my hands have landed.
 
2014-07-27 01:10:59 PM
Didn't RTFA in its entirety, but it's not just muscle memory, it's any sort of procedure that you follow, whether it's speech, anything involving motor skills, or even just getting home (hence, procedural memory). If you consistently travel a specific route to get home after work, you can almost do so with your eyes closed. But if you're giving someone directions to get to your place and you aren't sitting in the passenger's seat, you have to think a lot harder about where which streets to turn and how far you need to drive.

Speaking of typing, even if you can type at 100+ WPM, what are the odds that you write out the keys on a piece of paper without a visual aid? It's also due to the fact that procedural memory and declarative memory (recall of facts, figures, statistics, and history) are handled by different parts of the brain, plus being able to write out the keyboard layout from memory on a piece of paper is another procedure in itself.
 
2014-07-27 03:27:00 PM
I used to play text based games heavily as a kid (MUDs, woot!).  When I would daydream in class, at a keyboard, I would automatically start typing common commands.  That's when I knew I had a serious problem.

That being said, text-based games taught me more about typing and speed typing than anything else ever could.
 
2014-07-27 03:36:36 PM
Could have told you this from my years studying Karate. Bonus, having your body move easily helps your brain focus on strategy instead.
 
2014-07-27 04:40:43 PM

hubiestubert: Building muscle memory isn't the reverse of creativity, it is having done the work so that you can free yourself of having to think about a task without squandering effort on HOW to accomplish it, and simply do it, and do it in the way you want, as opposed to breaking it down in sections and task sets, and just let it flow.


Well, that certainly is one definition of creativity, one that has been popularized by psychologists like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. The problem with such ideas is that while they have that important new agey sounding jargon there is little actual scientific evidence that the creativity works in such a fashion and a lot of evidence that it does not. In specific, it is a very Western way of thinking about creativity and innovation that arises out of a particular historical and cultural context that evidences a strong bias towards harmony. This is especially true in music. Despite numerous studies all the evidence points to muscle memory and its influence on creativity to be nil. It is extraordinarily rare to find a Mozart or an Emily Bear---someone who is both a highly skilled performer and a creative genius. The fact is that for most people most of the time the development of creativity and and muscle memory are diametric opposites.
 
2014-07-27 05:19:04 PM

worlddan: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich:

You can get free touch typing programs on-line - one really isn't much better than the other. In probably 10 hours of practice, I bet you could get to 40 wpm.

The  problem is that muscle memory is opposed to creativity.


Tell that to a professional writer. Honestly, having taking typing in school (begrudgingly, because I was all into my art, creative writing and drama classes) is the BEST thing that happened to allow my creativity to just flow like a water fall through the computer.
 
2014-07-27 05:33:31 PM

worlddan: hubiestubert: Building muscle memory isn't the reverse of creativity, it is having done the work so that you can free yourself of having to think about a task without squandering effort on HOW to accomplish it, and simply do it, and do it in the way you want, as opposed to breaking it down in sections and task sets, and just let it flow.

Well, that certainly is one definition of creativity, one that has been popularized by psychologists like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. The problem with such ideas is that while they have that important new agey sounding jargon there is little actual scientific evidence that the creativity works in such a fashion and a lot of evidence that it does not. In specific, it is a very Western way of thinking about creativity and innovation that arises out of a particular historical and cultural context that evidences a strong bias towards harmony. This is especially true in music. Despite numerous studies all the evidence points to muscle memory and its influence on creativity to be nil. It is extraordinarily rare to find a Mozart or an Emily Bear---someone who is both a highly skilled performer and a creative genius. The fact is that for most people most of the time the development of creativity and and muscle memory are diametric opposites.


You have made my point for me. There are NOT diametric opposites. They are simply training. Training that allows those with skill to bypass conscious thought process to allow for tasks to be performed without concentration.

Now then genius, that's something else entirely.

You have to have a baseline of skill to perform any task in a creative fashion. You can try new things, but without basic understanding of the process, that is skill and practice, you're just dabbling, and maybe you get lucky and make something that is pleasing, but that's not the same as creativity. That's just luck. Creativity comes from understanding the rules enough to see which ones can be broken, or bent. Be that in woodworking, be that in song, be that in MMA, be that in programming. You have to understand the rules in order to have creativity. The most creative solutions are thought of because of imposed constraints. Be that for time, be that for materials, be that supply, be that for opposition that is likewise skilled. Innovation comes from limitations, and overcoming those limitations. It is a blend of understanding the problem, and overcoming the inherent limitations, and that comes from understanding those limitations from experience. Experience, isn't exactly always exciting. Except if that experience is in something that you love. Yes, I enjoy making those damn fool omelets, and I've made thousands, and that experience translates to doing things that the hobby cook doesn't do, because they just don't have the hours of flipping the suckers, and certainly not with the panache and performance that I can put into it. Why? Because it's not just about the practice, but the enjoyment and the interest.

For most folks, in order to get to the point of understanding a physical task--and yes, I'm looking at musical performances and a great many of the arts in that sense--inherently and without thought, you have to have training. Training isn't always fun. It means practicing over and over again. If you love what you're doing, then it's not boring. It's perfecting a craft. It's perfecting technique, and that is its own joy. When you finally get it exactly right. Once you get to that point, and can repeat it again and again, then you have a broader foundation of skills to build upon. Simpler task sets aren't even thought of, your body just does it. That simple flip of an omelet. Once you have that, then you don't think of how you're doing it, you're translating desire to do something even greater, and tapping that breadth of experience to try something more complicated. Without a solid foundation, you're simply not going to be able to perform many tasks done routinely by experts. And without conscious thought.

Creativity is spawned from freedom. In a great many task sets, and yeah, that includes music, cooking, and more, you have to have a foundation of skills before you can be creative. That takes practice. You have to have a foundation of skills before you can let loose. Which is why a lot of folks don't play the guitar, despite the fact that it's a way to get girls and looks and sounds cool, because learning to play with any skill, takes practice. And if you haven't got the patience to put the time in to get good, then you're never going to get to the point of being creative with that particular skill set.
 
2014-07-27 10:28:30 PM
i am entirely a touch typist on the numeric keypad.

when i use a laptop without a pad, i struggle to remember/enter my bank account details
 
2014-07-28 12:36:28 AM

DeathByGeekSquad: I used to play text based games heavily as a kid (MUDs, woot!).  When I would daydream in class, at a keyboard, I would automatically start typing common commands.  That's when I knew I had a serious problem.

That being said, text-based games taught me more about typing and speed typing than anything else ever could.


Maybe typing with one hand???

i291.photobucket.com

/iykwim
//aityd
 
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