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(CBS Miami)   It's docs vs. glocks in Florida. Glocks win   (miami.cbslocal.com) divider line 141
    More: Florida, Privacy Act, appeals courts, friend of the courts, United States courts of appeals, Howard Simon, First Amendment  
•       •       •

3265 clicks; posted to Politics » on 26 Jul 2014 at 2:58 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



141 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-07-26 11:59:21 AM  
Unless there is an unexplained bleeding hole in some dude's body, I see no reason why that would even come up during a medical exam.

/unless the patient brought it up
 
2014-07-26 12:09:39 PM  

basemetal: Unless there is an unexplained bleeding hole in some dude's body, I see no reason why that would even come up during a medical exam.

/unless the patient brought it up


Gun ownership and suicide rates are pretty closely correlated.  If you were seeing a doctor for depression or something similar i can see how it would come up.  But its really between the doctor and the patient and confidentiality laws with mental health are very strict so I don't see why the state feels the need to push this.
 
2014-07-26 12:20:28 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Gun ownership and suicide rates are pretty closely correlated.


You're probably going to have to demonstrate that. But that's beside the point. I have zero problem with a doctor discussing anything at all if it's pertinent to the health of a patient. Now if I catch the flu or something, obviously there's no business asking me if I own a Glock, but that would at least let me know I need a new doctor.
 
2014-07-26 12:31:19 PM  
And add, if a patient describes suicidal or homicidal intentions, the very next words out of his doctor's mouth SHOULD be, "do you have access to a gun?"
 
2014-07-26 12:32:28 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: basemetal: Unless there is an unexplained bleeding hole in some dude's body, I see no reason why that would even come up during a medical exam.

/unless the patient brought it up

Gun ownership and suicide rates are pretty closely correlated.  If you were seeing a doctor for depression or something similar i can see how it would come up.  But its really between the doctor and the patient and confidentiality laws with mental health are very strict so I don't see why the state feels the need to push this.


I stand understandably corrected.
 
2014-07-26 12:44:54 PM  
 
2014-07-26 12:46:06 PM  
An NRA-backed law that comes between a Doctor and his patients?

A Doctor is now not allowed to ask a potentially suicidal patient if he owns a gun?

In Florida?

The party of small government and personal responsibility strikes again!

Like the blunt object it is.
 
2014-07-26 01:18:09 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: OregonVet: You're probably going to have to demonstrate that

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-an d- use/


Heh, you didn't actually read all that stuff. Nice try.
 
2014-07-26 01:26:37 PM  

quatchi: A Doctor is now not allowed to ask a potentially suicidal patient if he owns a gun?


The law allows the doctor to ask about access to a firearm if the doctor has a good faith basis for believing that the question is relevant to medical care or safety.  If there is reason to believe that the patient is suicidal, access to a firearm would be relevant.
 
2014-07-26 01:34:08 PM  
Nevermind- I see you are going for the correlation. Wah. Just redress the studies you point out that focus on the lack of correlation regarding success vs. tendency. So yes, absolutely, I concede success rates among those that attempt suicide are much higher for those who use a firearm than those that use a bottle of children's chewable Bayer aspirin. Have a good day.
 
2014-07-26 02:36:42 PM  
In the case of Docs v. Crocs (2005) the podiatrist's rights were reaffirmed and he can continue to remind his patients that those damn shoe-like sandal devices are unfashionable.
 
2014-07-26 03:02:33 PM  
the NRA has a problem with preventing acute lead poisoning
 
2014-07-26 03:10:30 PM  
So someone is acting irrational and violently a doctor can't ask if they own a gun in the hopes of preventing a mass murder?
 
2014-07-26 03:14:56 PM  
Should doctors ask about in ownership as a matter of routne? No, probably not. Should they be legally prohibited from doing so in normal situations? Emphatically no.
 
2014-07-26 03:16:00 PM  

basemetal: Unless there is an unexplained bleeding hole in some dude's body, I see no reason why that would even come up during a medical exam.

/unless the patient brought it up


Your medical history/chart is now part of a centralized government database.

Best way to gather intel on citizens is to have docs ask questions of which the answer to becomes part of your permanent record maintained by the government.
 
2014-07-26 03:16:54 PM  
Doctor man, doctor man
Heals the sick like no one can
Glock comes out
Fscks his plan
Doctor man
 
2014-07-26 03:17:26 PM  

OregonVet: And add, if a patient describes suicidal or homicidal intentions, the very next words out of his doctor's mouth SHOULD be, "do you have access to a gun?"


Actually the next words out of the docs mouth should be "Would you like to rent the Kevorkian 9000?"
 
2014-07-26 03:18:48 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: OregonVet: You're probably going to have to demonstrate that

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-an d- use/


Why is the rate of suicide in the military equal to that of the normal civilian population when everyone in the military is armed?
 
2014-07-26 03:19:55 PM  

Muta: So someone is acting irrational and violently a doctor can't ask if they own a gun in the hopes of preventing a mass murder?


Baker Act instead.

Why would you do anything else as a doctor?
 
2014-07-26 03:20:19 PM  
Critics argue that doctors need to know what's in a patient's home so they can offer safety advice.

This is the only line in the article which makes any reference as to why doctors should be asking after weapons in the home, except there is not an explanation about this being primarily a recommendation from pediatrics groups with regards to gun storage with a child in the house, which the American Medical Association has itself adopted. I do not think doctors should be offering gun safety advice in a broad sense... but no one was arguing for them to do this.
 
2014-07-26 03:20:32 PM  

Giltric: basemetal: Unless there is an unexplained bleeding hole in some dude's body, I see no reason why that would even come up during a medical exam.

/unless the patient brought it up

Your medical history/chart is now part of a centralized government database.

Best way to gather intel on citizens is to have docs ask questions of which the answer to becomes part of your permanent record maintained by the government.


Preach it, brother. How's your doomsday shelter coming?
 
2014-07-26 03:22:32 PM  

theknuckler_33: Giltric: basemetal: Unless there is an unexplained bleeding hole in some dude's body, I see no reason why that would even come up during a medical exam.

/unless the patient brought it up

Your medical history/chart is now part of a centralized government database.

Best way to gather intel on citizens is to have docs ask questions of which the answer to becomes part of your permanent record maintained by the government.

Preach it, brother. How's your doomsday shelter coming?


I dont need a shelter.

Im an old man. I would much rather lead from the front and catch a couple rounds then expect someone elses children to catch a couple rounds for me.

How about you? You making lists and naming names comrade?
 
2014-07-26 03:24:41 PM  

Giltric: Doktor_Zhivago: OregonVet: You're probably going to have to demonstrate that

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-an d- use/

Why is the rate of suicide in the military equal to that of the normal civilian population when everyone in the military is armed?


Not everyone in the military is armed, and don't armed personnel have to secure their military-issue weapons when they aren't deployed or training?
 
2014-07-26 03:26:05 PM  

theknuckler_33: Giltric: Doktor_Zhivago: OregonVet: You're probably going to have to demonstrate that

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-an d- use/

Why is the rate of suicide in the military equal to that of the normal civilian population when everyone in the military is armed?

Not everyone in the military is armed, and don't armed personnel have to secure their military-issue weapons when they aren't deployed or training?


Yeah but who gets stressed out over being stateside and not in combat?

Combat stress is one of the factors....everyone is armed in combat.
 
2014-07-26 03:29:55 PM  

OregonVet: And add, if a patient describes suicidal or homicidal intentions, the very next words out of his doctor's mouth SHOULD be, "do you have access to a gun?"


Nope.  Guess again.
 
2014-07-26 03:31:44 PM  

Giltric: Your medical history/chart is now part of a centralized government database.


Lolwut?
 
2014-07-26 03:31:54 PM  

Giltric: Doktor_Zhivago: OregonVet: You're probably going to have to demonstrate that

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-an d- use/

Why is the rate of suicide in the military equal to that of the normal civilian population when everyone in the military is armed?


http://www.usatoday.com/story/nation/2014/04/25/suicide-rates-army-m il itary-pentagon/8060059/

Cause it isn't. Further, military personnel have access to mental health services as well as an impetus to seek them out unlike the majority of the civilian population; we would expect a reduction in instances of suicide for the civilian population with access to similar mental health services. I am not saying this increase is due to access to weapons in entirety or in part, simply you are wrong.
 
2014-07-26 03:32:10 PM  

Giltric: How about you? You making lists and naming names comrade?


I'm tracking your IP as we speak. Are you behind 7 proxies? I certainly hope so if I were you.
 
2014-07-26 03:33:18 PM  

Giltric: Why is the rate of suicide in the military equal to that of the normal civilian population when everyone in the military is armed?


If you're living on the base, your guns are locked up and not in your quarters.

(There are exceptions to this, but the vast  majority of troops on the base at any given time are unarmed.)

Why do you think that is?
 
GBB
2014-07-26 03:34:07 PM  

SkinnyHead: quatchi: A Doctor is now not allowed to ask a potentially suicidal patient if he owns a gun?

The law allows the doctor to ask about access to a firearm if the doctor has a good faith basis for believing that the question is relevant to medical care or safety.  If there is reason to believe that the patient is suicidal, access to a firearm would be relevant.


That is completely reasonable.   Does the law allow for that?
 
2014-07-26 03:34:59 PM  

Vangor: Giltric: Doktor_Zhivago: OregonVet: You're probably going to have to demonstrate that

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-an d- use/

Why is the rate of suicide in the military equal to that of the normal civilian population when everyone in the military is armed?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/nation/2014/04/25/suicide-rates-army-m il itary-pentagon/8060059/

Cause it isn't. Further, military personnel have access to mental health services as well as an impetus to seek them out unlike the majority of the civilian population; we would expect a reduction in instances of suicide for the civilian population with access to similar mental health services. I am not saying this increase is due to access to weapons in entirety or in part, simply you are wrong.


The rate is the same when you account for military age.

The rate changes for civilians and makes the military rate look worse than the civilian rate when you include people under 18 and over 60.
 
GBB
2014-07-26 03:35:52 PM  

MisterRonbo: Giltric: Why is the rate of suicide in the military equal to that of the normal civilian population when everyone in the military is armed?

If you're living on the base, your guns are locked up and not in your quarters.

(There are exceptions to this, but the vast  majority of troops on the base at any given time are unarmed.)

Why do you think that is?


Keeps the Navy and Air Force from killing innocent bystanders.

/zing!
 
2014-07-26 03:37:29 PM  
Not sure why a doctor would need to know, unless he's doing it as an assist for an insurance company.
 
2014-07-26 03:38:23 PM  

GBB: That is completely reasonable.   Does the law allow for that?


http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId =4 4993

Yes, the law does allow for this.

This is a reactionary law based on one instance of a doctor declining a set of patients in Ocala due to refusal to answer the question. This will interfere with almost no other patient interviews.
 
2014-07-26 03:40:20 PM  

theknuckler_33: Giltric: How about you? You making lists and naming names comrade?

I'm tracking your IP as we speak. Are you behind 7 proxies? I certainly hope so if I were you.


6.8 proxies.

www.snipercentral.com
 
2014-07-26 03:44:39 PM  

Giltric: theknuckler_33: Giltric: How about you? You making lists and naming names comrade?

I'm tracking your IP as we speak. Are you behind 7 proxies? I certainly hope so if I were you.

6.8 proxies.

[www.snipercentral.com image 640x446]


Shoot anybody "servin' papers", amirite?

i147.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-26 03:45:29 PM  

brownribbon: Should doctors ask about in ownership as a matter of routne? No, probably not. Should they be legally prohibited from doing so in normal situations? Emphatically no.


So much this.
 
2014-07-26 03:46:26 PM  

Giltric: The rate is the same when you account for military age.

The rate changes for civilians and makes the military rate look worse than the civilian rate when you include people under 18 and over 60.


Is the contention with what I linked and stated since military members are not under 18 and over 60 yet the rates of suicide are highest in the civilian population during those age ranges an age range comparison is not an accurate representation of military suicide rates being higher than the civilian population? Because the apparent data indicate higher rates of suicide among the military compared to those in the civilian population of similar age ranges, which would suggest higher rates of suicide among the military were those age ranges somehow expanded to include under 18 and over 60.

What you want to do is eliminate a relevant correction for demographics.
 
2014-07-26 03:52:56 PM  

MisterRonbo: If you're living on the base, your guns are locked up and not in your quarters.

(There are exceptions to this, but the vast majority of troops on the base at any given time are unarmed.)

Why do you think that is?


I am looking forward to answering your own question here.
 
2014-07-26 03:55:23 PM  
It's docs vs glocks in F-


ALL GLOCKS DO-


Glocks win


...............

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-07-26 03:56:24 PM  

theknuckler_33: Giltric: theknuckler_33: Giltric: How about you? You making lists and naming names comrade?

I'm tracking your IP as we speak. Are you behind 7 proxies? I certainly hope so if I were you.

6.8 proxies.

[www.snipercentral.com image 640x446]

Shoot anybody "servin' papers", amirite?

[i147.photobucket.com image 300x168]


Nope. Only horse eating kin.
 
2014-07-26 04:02:22 PM  

Vangor: Giltric: The rate is the same when you account for military age.

The rate changes for civilians and makes the military rate look worse than the civilian rate when you include people under 18 and over 60.

Is the contention with what I linked and stated since military members are not under 18 and over 60 yet the rates of suicide are highest in the civilian population during those age ranges an age range comparison is not an accurate representation of military suicide rates being higher than the civilian population? Because the apparent data indicate higher rates of suicide among the military compared to those in the civilian population of similar age ranges, which would suggest higher rates of suicide among the military were those age ranges somehow expanded to include under 18 and over 60.

What you want to do is eliminate a relevant correction for demographics.


And what is the difference in rates? are we talking a difference of 17.8 or .2?

post the charts and your analysis.
 
2014-07-26 04:10:47 PM  
Not only is it a valid question for people being treated for depression. It's also a valid question if you're taking medication that has one of those warning ".....suicidal thoughts" etc. Like Chantrix. Or other drugs that have that side effect if you stop them suddenly. The Doctor might recommend storing the gun off site until the medication is complete.
And probably doubly so if it's a teenager there in the office with his parents.
 
2014-07-26 04:10:52 PM  
Can anyone think of another question/topic a doctor is legally prohibited from asking?

There are other topics/information that can't be used to make treatment decisions and the like... but to not be allowed to collect the information?
 
2014-07-26 04:12:59 PM  
So does this apply to mental health professionals or just medical doctors?
 
2014-07-26 04:19:55 PM  

optikeye: Not only is it a valid question for people being treated for depression. It's also a valid question if you're taking medication that has one of those warning ".....suicidal thoughts" etc. Like Chantrix. Or other drugs that have that side effect if you stop them suddenly. The Doctor might recommend storing the gun off site until the medication is complete.
And probably doubly so if it's a teenager there in the office with his parents.


Agreed.
 
2014-07-26 04:20:42 PM  

Giltric: And what is the difference in rates? are we talking a difference of 17.8 or .2?

post the charts and your analysis.


To begin, I will say a hearty f*ck you. You made the initial claim without charts and analysis. I posted a link with relevant and easily accessible information which disagrees. You made a subsequent claim without charts and analysis. I disagreed with a discussion of methodology to which you attempted a moving of goalposts. Further, a small difference with high confidence would still disprove your claim, thus asking after intensity is not an argument.

Among full-time soldiers, the suicide rate soared to 29.7 deaths per 100,000 in 2012, well above a 25.1-per-100,000 rate for civilians of a similar age group during 2010, the latest year available, according to a Pentagon report. Among male soldiers, the rate was 31.8-per-100,000. There were a record 164 soldier-suicides that year.

The overall national civilian suicide rate was 12.1-per-100,000 in 2010 and 19.9-per-100,000 for men in 2010, according to the Centers for Disease Control.


Feel free to rebut because the premise you gave was access to weapons did not increase incidence of suicide, though someone else posted a link about a correlation between gun ownership and incidence of suicide, because military suicide rates would therefore be higher than the civilian population but are not. Thus far, you are wrong. Provide information and be right.
 
2014-07-26 04:28:49 PM  
Nugent's nuggets of whizzdom:  "Because stockpiling ammo is fun!"

img.fark.net
 
2014-07-26 04:30:27 PM  
What a stupidly dangerous precedent to set.
 
2014-07-26 04:32:39 PM  

Giltric: theknuckler_33: Giltric: How about you? You making lists and naming names comrade?

I'm tracking your IP as we speak. Are you behind 7 proxies? I certainly hope so if I were you.

6.8 proxies.

[www.snipercentral.com image 640x446]


Yea but the 6.5Grendel proxies provides better accuracy downrange when pinging.
 
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