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(CNN)   UN Secretary General to Hamas and Israeli forces: "This is wrong. You must stop fighting." Of course both sides lay down their weapons and hug each other   (cnn.com ) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Gaza, dispute, Ben-Gurion, Israeli Security Forces, United Nations Relief, FAA, cease-fire  
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898 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Jul 2014 at 6:07 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-25 09:34:28 PM  

Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[newsjunkiepost.com image 500x595]
I understand that Israel is ...


So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.  How about Israel arms and then trains Hamas so they can put up more of a fight? if the casualty rate was 1 to 1 then there would be nothing wrong going on for either side right?

Taking another armed conflict, the First Gulf war,  the Iraqi's suffered 25,000 to 30,000 combat casualties while coalition forces suffered under 500 combat casualties.  Does that make the war somehow unjustified because one side took a disproportionate number of casualties?  Just because one side inflicts more death and destruction on another has little to do with the underlying causes or legality of the given action.  War is very Darwinian, if one side is suffering too much, get or don't take action that prompts a conflict with a superior armed and equipped opponent.
 
2014-07-25 09:38:28 PM  

Eshkar: nubzers: Eshkar: nubzers: Bit'O'Gristle: nubzers: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Hamas wants Israel for its "holy" areas.
2. Hamas lobs unguided rockets into Israel blowing up random buildings and injuring and killing civilians.
3. Hamas uses civilian buildings for cover to fire their derp rockets.
4. Israel gets tired of being bombed, so they fire back at the area the rockets are coming from, or, when they get pissed enough, invade Gaza and do a house to house trying to root out the religious nut jobs who are trying to kill them.
5. Everyone gets pissed at Israel for killing civilians, even though they use guided munitions, where Hamas uses unguided "hope this kills someone" rockets."
6. Hamas posts vids of dead kids, wailing mothers, and distraught fathers gnashing their teeth over a shredded body, and tout how the Israel government are all monsters who murder children.
7. Everyone flames Israel.

(feel free to add more if i missed anything, I'm sure i have.)

8. Israel flames schools with white phosphorus.

9. Israel kills mostly children and "woops we thought it was empty since no one answered at 3 am"

Israel has committed war crimes. Hamas is a terrorist organization. And you pea brained idiots think since they are terrorists it means no holds barred. You are the same retards who think it's ok to torture people or flatten civilian towns because "they hate us for our freedoms." Get out. No seriously, get out. I didn't fight for five years to protect people like you. People who literally made everything far more difficult then it should have been over there in Iraq and Afghanistan with the bullshiat you spew. Israel has completely and utterly shiat the bed when it comes to dealing with the Palestinians. You know how you show them your not monsters? By not behaving like monsters and hiding behind legal technicalities for the law of ground warfare. You want to stop the rockets? Get in there on the ground, you stay there, you maintain peace, improve their lives, work with the local lead ...

Well... we do have boots on the ground now.  We are currently running an anti-insurgency operation... As I said the bombing were used to drive them to the ground.  Israeli soldiers have been in Gaza for the past week performing anti-insurgency efforts and tracking mile and miles of terror tunnels.


It's counter insurgency, not anti. Mostly semantics, but I get the feeling English isn't your primary language. Not trying to criticize, just trying to understand if that's the reason we are having a breakdown in communication. Also, who the hell called them terror tunnels? Is that like freedom fries? Anyway, you tell me when Israel sends more than a token force starts providing humanitarian aid, stops restricting freedom of movement, and starts demonstrating with actions that they are morally superior and can provide a better life. Then I'll start believing that Israel isn't just a country with a grudge.
 
2014-07-25 09:38:50 PM  

moeburn: MadeInDetroit: Born_Again_Bavarian: MadeInDetroit: Israel uses missiles to shield its people. Hamas uses people to shield its missiles.

Maybe we can buy Hamas an iron dome like we did the Israelis?  You know, to even things out?
Or Hamas can stop firing missiles into Isreal and using the poor people of gaza as human shields. Why would we give one of the most dangerous terrorist organizations a missile system? Because the arming of Isis is working out so well in Syria. Maybe a better solution would be Arabs turning on Hamas and saying hell no you are not putting your missiles in our homes, schools, or hospitals.

The Palestinians that choose to join Hamas do it not out of religious fervor, but out of a thirst for revenge, out of desperation, out of starvation.  They merely use religion as a moral shield.

Their behaviour is abhorrent, but it is to be expected.  Israel is the only one with the power to end this cycle, by giving the Palestinians the power to sustain themselves, to feed themselves, to give them the freedom to come and go as they please, to eliminate curfews and border checkpoints and walls and roaming gangs of bloodthirsty Israeli police .


"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated it before" that is an exact quote from Hamas charter. Funded by Iran and Muslim Brotherhood also listing as the complete genocide of Israel as their goals. If Hamas would stop launching missiles into Israel and making tunnels into Israel we wouldn't be at this point. The iron dome is only a defensive weapon system. Just another reason to not negotiate with Hamas but recognize they are one of the most dangerous terrorist groups. I am all for Arabs of Gaza getting better treatment. But they should distance themselves from a group that has genocide as one of its core beliefs.
 
2014-07-25 09:38:58 PM  

Resident Muslim: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[newsjunkiepost.com image 500x595]
I understa ...


That is because Israel spent her money building protection for her citizens... while Hamas spend every dime preparing for war to antagonize Israel into bombing them... used cement supplied to them by Israel to build infrastructure to build terror tunnels instead.  When Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians they tried to supply them with economic structure, were going to let Saudi Arabia build them a port (which would have been an extremely profitable port), Israel was ready to help the Palestinians turn Gaza into an amazing home for the Palestinians... instead Hamas turned away the help, burned thousands of green houses the Israelis turned over to them.  It's time for the world to realize the problem isn't the Victims, Israel and the Palestinians are the victims, Hamas and groups like them are the problem.
 
2014-07-25 09:39:15 PM  

spacelord321: J Noble Daggett: spacelord321: J Noble Daggett: spacelord321:
You don't seem able to actually address his logic, and that is presumably the essence of your response.

I saw no logic. I saw someone performing mental gymnastics to convince him/herself that they were right.

Consult your medical insurance proctologist and see if it covers optometry butt-hurt.

FTFY


Your demonstrated skills with logic are a testament to your mental acuity. Surely, your skills in logical repartee speak loudly of both your wit and your morality.
 
2014-07-25 09:46:08 PM  

Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.


Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.
 
2014-07-25 09:49:28 PM  

nubzers: Eshkar: nubzers: Eshkar: nubzers: Bit'O'Gristle: nubzers: Bit'O'Gristle: 1. Hamas wants Israel for its "holy" areas.
2. Hamas lobs unguided rockets into Israel blowing up random buildings and injuring and killing civilians.
3. Hamas uses civilian buildings for cover to fire their derp rockets.
4. Israel gets tired of being bombed, so they fire back at the area the rockets are coming from, or, when they get pissed enough, invade Gaza and do a house to house trying to root out the religious nut jobs who are trying to kill them.
5. Everyone gets pissed at Israel for killing civilians, even though they use guided munitions, where Hamas uses unguided "hope this kills someone" rockets."
6. Hamas posts vids of dead kids, wailing mothers, and distraught fathers gnashing their teeth over a shredded body, and tout how the Israel government are all monsters who murder children.
7. Everyone flames Israel.

(feel free to add more if i missed anything, I'm sure i have.)

8. Israel flames schools with white phosphorus.

9. Israel kills mostly children and "woops we thought it was empty since no one answered at 3 am"

Israel has committed war crimes. Hamas is a terrorist organization. And you pea brained idiots think since they are terrorists it means no holds barred. You are the same retards who think it's ok to torture people or flatten civilian towns because "they hate us for our freedoms." Get out. No seriously, get out. I didn't fight for five years to protect people like you. People who literally made everything far more difficult then it should have been over there in Iraq and Afghanistan with the bullshiat you spew. Israel has completely and utterly shiat the bed when it comes to dealing with the Palestinians. You know how you show them your not monsters? By not behaving like monsters and hiding behind legal technicalities for the law of ground warfare. You want to stop the rockets? Get in there on the ground, you stay there, you maintain peace, improve their lives, work wi ...


Actually American transplant.  Israeli media and government call them Terror Tunnels.  It fits... they were built by terrorist to commit acts of terror.
 
2014-07-25 09:52:05 PM  

J Noble Daggett: spacelord321: J Noble Daggett: spacelord321: J Noble Daggett: spacelord321:
You don't seem able to actually address his logic, and that is presumably the essence of your response.

I saw no logic. I saw someone performing mental gymnastics to convince him/herself that they were right.

Consult your medical insurance proctologist and see if it covers optometry butt-hurt.

FTFY

Your demonstrated skills with logic are a testament to your mental acuity. Surely, your skills in logical repartee speak loudly of both your wit and your morality.


I have not even attempted to demonstrate logic or morality. This is mud slinging, pure and simple. Flashy words and insults regarding my intelligence do not place you on any higher ground, morally or intellectually.
 
2014-07-25 09:55:08 PM  

Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[newsjunkiepost.com image 500x595]
I understand that Israel is ...

So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.  How about Israel arms and then trains Hamas so they can put up more of a fight? if the casualty rate was 1 to 1 then there would be nothing wrong going on for either side right?

Taking another armed conflict, the First Gulf war,  the Iraqi's suffered 25,000 to 30,000 combat casualties while coalition forces suffered under 500 combat casualties.  Does that make the war somehow unjustified because one side took a disproportionate number of casualties?  Just because one side inflicts more death and destruction on another has little to do with the underlying causes or legality of the given action.  War is very Darwinian, if one side is suffering too much, get or don't take action that prompts a conflict with a superior armed and equipped opponent.


The coalition never portrayed themselves as victims.


/that's the joke
//waiting for a new clip of israeli nursery children hustled to the shelter under sirens while a tv camera just happens to be there
 
2014-07-25 09:55:46 PM  

J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.


Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.
 
2014-07-25 09:56:24 PM  

Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[newsjunkiepost.com image 500x595 ...


I think the Kuwaiti's would beg to differ....
 
2014-07-25 10:09:29 PM  

Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[newsjunkiepost.com image 500x595 ...

I think the Kuwaiti's would beg to differ....


You lost me.


Are you comparing the occupied Kuwaitis to Palestinians or Israelis?
 
2014-07-25 10:29:50 PM  

Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[new ...


You said the coalition, in reference to my example of the Gulf War 1, didn't portray themselves as victims. My comment was referencing that the coalition was formed on behalf of Kuwait due to the fact that Iraq had invaded Kuwait and the ground campaign was launched to evict Iraq from Kuwait who certainly were victims of aggression.  So there was victimization even in the disparate casualty figures.  Sorry I could have been clearer.

So the really isn't an analogy directly to either Palestinian or Israel in the present conflict except with the fact that even the overwhelming superior forces can be victims based upon the conduct of the inferior forces.
 
2014-07-25 10:57:20 PM  

Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.


Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.
 
2014-07-25 11:06:06 PM  

J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.


What is it suggesting then?  You throw it out there and then complain when I wrongly extrapolate what was being said by those statistics.  Enlighten me on the contributions intended by pointing out that Israel has suffered an handful of casualties in 13 years compared with hundreds and thousands suffered by those residing in Gaza/West Bank.
 
2014-07-25 11:23:43 PM  

Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.

What is it suggesting then?  You throw it out there and then complain when I wrongly extrapolate what was being said by those statistics.  Enlighten me on the contributions intended by pointing out that Israel has suffered an handful of casualties in 13 years compared with hundreds and thousands suffered by those residing in Gaza/West Bank.


Police win a lot more gun fights than crooks. That doesn't mean crime is good.

Hamas' inability to fight back effectively does not legitimize their struggle, it just proves they're stupid as well as evil.

Protip: If you're ever stuck in a conquered nation, don't resort to lob rockets, suicide bomb, or other coward's moves. Play the game like a player.
 
2014-07-25 11:55:33 PM  
Dear Israel & Hamas:  Please keep fighting.  Fight until every last one of you is dead.
 
2014-07-26 02:12:49 AM  

Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.

What is it suggesting then?  You throw it out there and then complain when I wrongly extrapolate what was being said by those statistics.  Enlighten me on the contributions intended by pointing out that Israel has suffered an handful of casualties in 13 years compared with hundreds and thousands suffered by those residing in Gaza/West Bank.


First you explain how pointing out that there are more than 10X more dead Palestinians than Israelis in any way shape or form suggests that more dead of any kind would be desirable? How do you possibly invent that as an interpretation?
It means one side is paying a higher price. It does not make that side right or wrong. It may suggest that the responses of one side, the more powerful side, are disproportionate. That means that less deaths would be better, not more. But less deaths on both sides would be better regardless. What sort of sick mind would suggest more deaths being better? How?
 
2014-07-26 02:24:52 AM  

Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[new ...

You said the coalition, in reference to my example of the Gulf War 1, didn't portray themselves as victims. My comment was referencing that the coalition was formed on behalf of Kuwait due to the fact that Iraq had invaded Kuwait and the ground campaign was launched to evict Iraq from Kuwait who certainly were victims of aggression.  So there was victimization even in the disparate casualty figures.  Sorry I could have been clearer.

So the really isn't an analogy directly to either Palestinian or Israel in the present conflict except with the fact that even the overwhelming superior forces can be victims based upon the conduct of the inferior forces.


So...you gave me an analogy that doesn't really fit the situation?
Kuwait didn't have the "overwhelming superior forces" when it was attacked.

If you don't mind my tweaking the analogy; a better way to look at this is if the occupied Palestinians suddenly got the support of the UN (or the National Security Council), and defended themselves against the Israelis, then that would be a better comparison.
Where an overwhelmingly inferior country was invaded by a superior force, but was then aided by a larger coalition.

That would be a better comparison to the Kuwait invasion, if I may say so.
 
2014-07-26 02:46:45 AM  
Give the Palestines Gaza and West Bank, build U.N. patrolled highways between the two and Jerusalem, and another highway to cross between northern and southern Israel, bring in U.N. money to build whatever needs built AND taught to both sides to ensure autonomy. Explosives/radiological materials checks every 10 miles across both sets of highways. Required GPS tracking of any vehicle entering the checkpoints of the other country monitored by a security force that excludes the US, Russia, involved middle-eastern countries, and pretty much anyone with an axe to grind.

Then, pass a three-strikes Resolution. Three attacks that result in more than 5 deaths/occurrence (you have to weed out the psychos from the state-sponsored militants) in either state, and the U.N. authorizes world-wide backed, border-to-border carpet bombing from Lebanon to Egypt, Jordan to Syria. And the first time either side says "Bullshiat!", the U.N. picks out an uninhabited area just outside of a large metropolitan area and puts on one hell of a fireworks show. No casualties except maybe a few goats, but it would show them that the rest of the planet is farking tired of this shiat.

Set up a 1mi wide DMZ around each area and each highway, and monitor those areas with sonar. Any changes? U.N. peacekeepers bring in a couple of drills and drop a couple dozen pounds of TNT down the holes, followed by thermite charges laced with a couple grams of Chromium-51 (a half-life of 27 days) so if whoever digs the tunnel goes back and checks it out with a Geiger counter, it'll be a genuine warning to knock it the fark off.

Then, we cut off all funding. Every ship container, every truck, every vehicle going in and out gets x-rayed. Every packet of internet and telephony traffic gets monitored to ensure that funds aren't being transferred in and out.

20 years of forced peace at the cost of 5 years of average expenditures that we send to Israel, split up between both sides, is a nice trade-off. The US sends Israel ~$3bn/yr. Split that in half, and GIVE Palestine and Israel desalination plants and $5m in mining equipment to sell "Dead Sea Salts" to farking hipsters and religious nuts in the US and Japan at grossly inflated prices. The equipment would pay for itself in 6 months. Give Gaza exclusive rights to Southeastern Mediterranean tourist ports, and Israel Northeastern ports, tourism would increase in both.

If we backed, both economically and militaristically, a worldwide solution, it would only cost a fraction in the long run of what JUST the US is sending. And has been plainly evinced by both the Jews and Islamic Sheikhs, money talks a universal language.
 
2014-07-26 03:04:24 AM  
Everyone is so caught up in the past, and no one is looking far enough ahead to even begin to try to figure out a way to genuinely reconcile both sides equally, based on the loss each side sustained when Israel was declared a State. Each side lost something fundamentally important to them. The Nazi's poisoned the Muslims of the area by backing them against the Jews. The Jews then were attacked because of their beliefs. The Muslims were then retaliated against (and had their beliefs vindicated) by Christians and Jews.

Jerusalem is important to Jews, Muslims, and Christians. As is that whole area. But the animosity engendered by each group having historically been pitted against each other by religious leaders has poisoned the area, more as a reminder of hatred than as a center of unity.

If there's to be any hope of lasting peace in the area, let alone between the three largest religions in the world, the rest of the world has to put them in a room and tell them to get along or they're all going to get whipped equally until they can't even sit down. And if one of them becomes defiant, we'll make them watch as we take a hammer to their favorite toy.
 
2014-07-26 03:09:01 AM  

J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.

What is it suggesting then?  You throw it out there and then complain when I wrongly extrapolate what was being said by those statistics.  Enlighten me on the contributions intended by pointing out that Israel has suffered an handful of casualties in 13 years compared with hundreds and thousands suffered by those residing in Gaza/West Bank.

First you explain how pointing out that there are more than 10X more dead Palestinians than Israelis in any way shape or form suggests that more dead of any kind would be desirable? How do you possibly invent that as an interpretation?
It means one side is paying a higher price. It does not make that side right or wrong. It may suggest that the responses of one side, the more powerful side, are disproportionate. That means that less deaths would be better, not more. But less deaths on b ...


The death toll is irrelevant if you are making the point that casualties are awful.  By juxpositioning the two, you are inferring

J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.

What is it suggesting then?  You throw it out there and then complain when I wrongly extrapolate what was being said by those statistics.  Enlighten me on the contributions intended by pointing out that Israel has suffered an handful of casualties in 13 years compared with hundreds and thousands suffered by those residing in Gaza/West Bank.

First you explain how pointing out that there are more than 10X more dead Palestinians than Israelis in any way shape or form suggests that more dead of any kind would be desirable? How do you possibly invent that as an interpretation?
It means one side is paying a higher price. It does not make that side right or wrong. It may suggest that the responses of one side, the more powerful side, are disproportionate. That means that less deaths would be better, not more. But less deaths on b ...


Not at all, the casualty rate has nothing to do with the nature of the response or the justification of the war. You seem to be implying that because one side suffers greatly that means that the conflict was unjustified. Therefore in order to have a just or fair war, both sides must suffer in the same manner which would mean Israel would need more casualties.

When hostilities are initiated, the conflict continues until there is a mutually agreed upon resolution. The fact that the Israeli's have the means and methods to reduce harm while the Hamas and other fighting parties tend to seek out casualties both on the Israeli side and their own has a lot to do with the bloated figures that say nothing about the conflict at all.  Your use of those figures is agenda driven to feed into the victimization model that the Palestinian leadership thrives on in order to achieve international donations to fund their government as well as fund the more lavish lifestyles of their leadership. If you didn't intend that, then why bring up the Israeli casualties at all since they are suffering fewer and therefore are doing their part at limiting the damage like you are advocating.

Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a cita ...


I wasn't giving a straight example, it was more a concept although looking at it, it actually does match up.  The fact that one side or another suffers a larger number or smaller number of casualties is irrelevant to merits of a given conflict or the conduct of the forces involved.  Iraq suffered hugely being the aggressor with an ineffective attack whereas the coalition forces using technology, better equipment, and advanced training suffered little.  Iraq was more comparable to the present Hamas forces whereas Israel would be in the shoes of the coalition. Hamas provoked the attack by kidnapping youths in a campaign to release more prisoners that they botched when one of the kids called the police too quickly causing a crisis that escalated into the war.  The fact that the  Coalition side suffering the fewer casualties is the victim and perfectly justified in their killing a large number of Iraqis does not mean that the resulting action was unjustified or somehow wrong.  Of course there was the advantage of a mutually agreed upon fight between armed forces reducing civilian casualties which isn't the case In the present environment where Hamas is mixing in with the civilian population resulting in more non-combatants from suffering.
 
2014-07-26 03:17:26 AM  

Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.

What is it suggesting then?  You throw it out there and then complain when I wrongly extrapolate what was being said by those statistics.  Enlighten me on the contributions intended by pointing out that Israel has suffered an handful of casualties in 13 years compared with hundreds and thousands suffered by those residing in Gaza/West Bank.

First you explain how pointing out that there are more than 10X more dead Palestinians than Israelis in any way shape or form suggests that more dead of any kind would be desirable? How do you possibly invent that as an interpretation?
It means one side is paying a higher price. It does not make that side right or wrong. It may suggest that the responses of one side, the more powerful side, are disproportionate. That means that less deaths would be better, not more. But less deaths on b ...

The death toll is irrelevant if you are making the point that casualties are awful.  By juxpositioning the two, you are inferring J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: So your saying that if there were more dead Israeli's then things would be better and more justified.

Except that that was not what was said. But if we completely change everything to conform to your distorted notion of things, then you have a point, in an alternative universe kind of way.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is supposed to do what exactly then? If there have been only 28 dead Israeli's from rocket fire over 13 years compared to the dozens or hundreds of dead Palestinians over the present violence in Gaza, what is the point of that statistic if not to imply something about the present fighting?  if he is trying to make another point he should clarify.  I tried to work with what I was given and thought he was saying but if there is another point to it, I am all ears.

Pointing out the difference in casualties is not suggesting that more casualties on one side would be better.
Until you abandon the logic of false dichotomies there is no solution. Ultimately, absurd false dichotomies are the "logic" pursued by both sides resulting in incorrigible gridlock.

What is it suggesting then?  You throw it out there and then complain when I wrongly extrapolate what was being said by those statistics.  Enlighten me on the contributions intended by pointing out that Israel has suffered an handful of casualties in 13 years compared with hundreds and thousands suffered by those residing in Gaza/West Bank.

First you explain how pointing out that there are more than 10X more dead Palestinians than Israelis in any way shape or form suggests that more dead of any kind would be desirable? How do you possibly invent that as an interpretation?
It means one side is paying a higher price. It does not make that side right or wrong. It may suggest that the responses of one side, the more powerful side, are disproportionate. That means that less deaths would be better, not more. But less deaths on b ...

Not at all, the casualty rate has nothing to do with the nature of the response or the justification of the war. You seem to be implying that because one side suffers greatly that means that the conflict was unjustified. Therefore in order to have a just or fair war, both sides must suffer in the same manner which would mean Israel would need more casualties.

When hostilities are initiated, the conflict continues until there is a mutually agreed upon resolution. The fact that the Israeli's have the means and methods to reduce harm while the Hamas and other fighting parties tend to seek out casualties both on the Israeli side and their own has a lot to do with the bloated figures that say nothing about the conflict at all.  Your use of those figures is agenda driven to feed into the victimization model that the Palestinian leadership thrives on in order to achieve international donations to fund their government as well as fund the more lavish lifestyles of their leadership. If you didn't intend that, then why bring up the Israeli casualties at all since they are suffering fewer and therefore are doing their part at limiting the damage like you are advocating.

Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a cita ...

I wasn't giving a straight example, it was more a concept although looking at it, it actually does match up.  The fact that one side or another suffers a larger number or smaller number of casualties is irrelevant to merits of a given conflict or the conduct of the forces involved.  Iraq suffered hugely being the aggressor with an ineffective attack whereas the coalition forces using technology, better equipment, and advanced training suffered little.  Iraq was more comparable to the present Hamas forces whereas Israel would be in the shoes of the coalition. Hamas provoked the attack by kidnapping youths in a campaign to release more prisoners that they botched when one of the kids called the police too quickly causing a crisis that escalated into the war.  The fact that the  Coalition side suffering the fewer casualties is the victim and perfectly justified in their killing a large number of Iraqis does not mean that the resulting action was unjustified or somehow wrong.  Of course there was the advantage of a mutually agreed upon fight between armed forces reducing civilian casualties which isn't the case In the present environment where Hamas is mixing in with the civilian population resulting in more non-combatants from suffering.


You just changed the example by dropping Kuwait out of it and considered Iraq attacking the coalition. Which wasn't the case.
Iraq attacked and occupied an inferior power (and then was slapped around when the coalition stepped up) much like Israel is attacking the Palestinians and occupying their lands.
 
2014-07-26 03:34:22 AM  
Kuwait was part of the coalition and therefore Iraq attacked the coalition.   The example was serving how the victim of aggression can suffer fewer casualties and inflict far more damage without the conflict being called unjustified, illegal, or disproportionate. Hamas attacked Israel and is now reaping the consequences for their action.  The casualties inflicted on Palestinians is largely irrelevant to determining the justification or appropriateness of the campaign in response.
 
2014-07-26 03:41:08 AM  

iheartscotch: I have a modest proposal. Can't we just let the Israelis have at the Muslims? If we turn and look the other way; we'll never have to worry about peace in the Middle East ever again. It sounds like a Fine Ol' Solution to the Muslim problem to me...


I do realise that by calling it a "modest proposal" you're clearly being facetious. Still, I've heard genuine suggestions along those lines. And yes, technically you would end a conflict by simply destroying one side or another. But it's a low-level solution. It's monstrous and inhuman. The apparently reasonable sounding alternatives aren't much better. Some want to force one side or another to leave the area and move away en masse.

But that's wrong as well. How can anyone, in good conscience, deny people the right to live in the land where they were born? This applies equally to both sides. Then there's the two state solution which is tempting as it's fair minded, but looking at how that strategy led directly to decades of war in Ireland and in India/Pakistan, that is deeply unlikely to work.

I wish I could suggest something that will but as much as I try I can't unravel it. As long as missiles fly into Israel, the helicopters and rockets will continue. And of course those helicopters and missiles will trigger more missiles. Non-violent resistance has occasionally led to results, but for every Ghandi or Martin Luther King there's been a Nelson Mandela who or Bobby Sands who could only take their peaceful measures met with crushing brutality for so long.

I have no doubt that most people on both sides don't want this. They are, after all, human beings. And even human beings raised from birth to see the other as inhuman monsters want to live their lives in peace and stability. They want to leave a better society for their children. But I can't think of a way to do it, and certainly can't see one when those same children grow up either learning to throw rocks, fire missiles and strap on bomb vests or to serve in an aggressive military and to patrol their settlements night after night with Uzis.

In some small way I can sort of put my mind in. I am Jewish, born and bred. And while I have never been to Israel I know well about having had the idea imprinted upon me that Israel Must Be Supported No Matter What, because it is my people's one and only safe homeland to be secure if some other country where we were welcome as equals for decades suddenly turns murderously hostile, as Germany did. And that the Jews cannot leave, because if we can be forced out of one homeland once established then we set a precedent and can never guarantee any permanency. I've seen this attitude reflected by members of my own family and other Jewish people I know. I know the worry that comes with even the most legitimate criticism of Israeli policy and actions, the fear that it is a sign of barely concealed anti-Semitic bigotry. Even when it isn't, the question still arises. Me, I consciously work to rid myself of it, because I have seen the drift from "we must be secure" to "those filthy Arabs hate us all" and I for utterly refuse to accept that anyone out there is less human than I, or that I owe any allegiance to anyone because of the religion and ethnicity of my birth.

I am a good Socialist and anti-Fascist. I will welcome anyone, anywhere as my equal provided they agree to that same egalitarian and humanistic ideal. I don't care about your race or ethnicity or nationality or religion or gender or age or sexual preference, because none of that tells me a damn thing about a person's choices or values or outlook or anything else that can actually inform me as to that person's character.

And the worst of it is, all that is my distancing myself and trying to approach in this analytical matter what is in truth the misery, pain and death of living, feeling human beings who surely deserve better, and no matter how hard I try I can't do more than wring my hands in despair.

Sorry for the long post but it's obviously been on my mind and I had to get it off my chest.
 
2014-07-26 03:43:49 AM  

Daedalus27: Not at all, the casualty rate has nothing to do with the nature of the response or the justification of the war. You seem to be implying that because one side suffers greatly that means that the conflict was unjustified. Therefore in order to have a just or fair war, both sides must suffer in the same manner which would mean Israel would need more casualties.


You are a font of illogic. There is an implication of disproportionate response, especially given the common rhetoric of retribution from Israel. There is more to it as Hamas seems to encourage the disproportionate casualty total, presumably for propaganda value. Israel is all too willing to accommodate.

As to implying justification, how? Where did you get that from? It just is not there. It's pure invention.

When hostilities are initiated, the conflict continues until there is a mutually agreed upon resolution. The fact that the Israeli's have the means and methods to reduce harm while the Hamas and other fighting parties tend to seek out casualties both on the Israeli side and their own has a lot to do with the bloated figures that say nothing about the conflict at all. Your use of those figures is agenda driven to feed into the victimization model that the Palestinian leadership thrives on in order to achieve international donations to fund their government as well as fund the more lavish lifestyles of their leadership. If you didn't intend that, then why bring up the Israeli casualties at all since they are suffering fewer and therefore are doing their part at limiting the damage like you are advocating.

The casualty figures speak to the number of casualties. That is not "nothing at all". Your twisted notion that they relate to which side is just is perverse and illogical. As for claiming that Israel is trying to limit casualties, I simply cannot agree. There are too many examples of mutual antagonism. Mutual.
 
2014-07-26 03:54:57 AM  

J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: Not at all, the casualty rate has nothing to do with the nature of the response or the justification of the war. You seem to be implying that because one side suffers greatly that means that the conflict was unjustified. Therefore in order to have a just or fair war, both sides must suffer in the same manner which would mean Israel would need more casualties.

You are a font of illogic. There is an implication of disproportionate response, especially given the common rhetoric of retribution from Israel. There is more to it as Hamas seems to encourage the disproportionate casualty total, presumably for propaganda value. Israel is all too willing to accommodate.

As to implying justification, how? Where did you get that from? It just is not there. It's pure invention.

When hostilities are initiated, the conflict continues until there is a mutually agreed upon resolution. The fact that the Israeli's have the means and methods to reduce harm while the Hamas and other fighting parties tend to seek out casualties both on the Israeli side and their own has a lot to do with the bloated figures that say nothing about the conflict at all. Your use of those figures is agenda driven to feed into the victimization model that the Palestinian leadership thrives on in order to achieve international donations to fund their government as well as fund the more lavish lifestyles of their leadership. If you didn't intend that, then why bring up the Israeli casualties at all since they are suffering fewer and therefore are doing their part at limiting the damage like you are advocating.

The casualty figures speak to the number of casualties. That is not "nothing at all". Your twisted notion that they relate to which side is just is perverse and illogical. As for claiming that Israel is trying to limit casualties, I simply cannot agree. There are too many examples of mutual antagonism. Mutual.


By your analysis you are placing blame on Israel for the reason that they are inflicting more casualties the Palestinians because in your mind they are not trying to limit casualties sufficiently How one can limit casualties when the forces being fought are utilizing the population as a shield is a nearly impossible problem.  The only way not to is to allow Hamas to attack without any response and suffer casualties, damage and disruption to society while impotently standing by.  No nation in the world could stand to do that therefore Israel acts to disrupt the attacks which inflicts more casualties than they suffer therefore fueling your ideas that Israel is to blame.
 
2014-07-26 04:19:18 AM  

Daedalus27: By your analysis you are placing blame on Israel for the reason that they are inflicting more casualties the Palestinians because in your mind they are not trying to limit casualties sufficiently How one can limit casualties when the forces being fought are utilizing the population as a shield is a nearly impossible problem. The only way not to is to allow Hamas to attack without any response and suffer casualties, damage and disruption to society while impotently standing by. No nation in the world could stand to do that therefore Israel acts to disrupt the attacks which inflicts more casualties than they suffer therefore fueling your ideas that Israel is to blame.


No. I am not putting the blame on Israel. You appear to be laboring under the false impression that one side must be to blame or one side must be worse. There's no logical reason to adopt that. In point of fact, both sides are to blame and both sides are acting in ways that will, predictably, continue the conflict indefinitely.
 
2014-07-26 04:24:41 AM  

J Noble Daggett: Daedalus27: By your analysis you are placing blame on Israel for the reason that they are inflicting more casualties the Palestinians because in your mind they are not trying to limit casualties sufficiently How one can limit casualties when the forces being fought are utilizing the population as a shield is a nearly impossible problem. The only way not to is to allow Hamas to attack without any response and suffer casualties, damage and disruption to society while impotently standing by. No nation in the world could stand to do that therefore Israel acts to disrupt the attacks which inflicts more casualties than they suffer therefore fueling your ideas that Israel is to blame.

No. I am not putting the blame on Israel. You appear to be laboring under the false impression that one side must be to blame or one side must be worse. There's no logical reason to adopt that. In point of fact, both sides are to blame and both sides are acting in ways that will, predictably, continue the conflict indefinitely.


Of course there is one side that has to accept the blame for the phases of conflict. Just because both sides are wrong doesn't mean you avoid judging how they conduct themselves. Hamas is clearly to blame for the armed portion of the conflict by provoking the attacks and then conducting the conflict in illegal (under international law) manner to guaranteed to create heavy casualties amongst the Palestinians until eventually the conflict to die off and Hamas receives aid they can siphon off to fund the rebuilding and enrich themselves.  Israel is clearly to blame by their conduct in peace through settlement building, economic starvation, and collective punishment on both a small scale and large of creating conditions where Hamas can thrive and gain strength to again provoke an attack.to repeat the cycle.
 
2014-07-26 06:00:52 AM  

Resident Muslim: I understand that Israel is defending against the rockets coming from Gaza.
I just found it interesting when I looked up how many people have died from these rocket attacks, the answer shocked me.
Since 2001: 28.

How many people died in Gaza yesterday?


This retarded logic always amazes me.
Israel has sophisticated alarm systems, bomb shelters almost under every house and israelis are trained to run for cover in seconds when the alarms sound. It's not as if the palestinians are not trying, they try very very hard to murder as many israeli civilians as possible. There should have been zero deaths, if you notice the dead and seriously wounded are usually kids or elderly who didn't run fast enough to the bomb shelter when the alarms started.

Tell me, if I bomb your city with thousands of missiles but you'll be in your bomb shelter because you ran for your life for the 15 seconds you get to do so, you'll just shrug it off ? see, no one died! it was nothing. Your children won't be affected in any way, right ? no harm done, no need to do something to prevent the hourly bombardment of your city.

Please explain this logic to me, i'm honestly curious.

Resident Muslim: Now do these ones:


Do you compare kids captured for throwing rocks at soldiers to Hamas' use of their own civilians as human shields ?.. hahha...hahahaha!
Go throw a rock at an armed soldier anywhere else, let me know how it worked out.

Resident Muslim: In case you are wondering where I got the number of rockets casualties and ask for a citation:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/rocket-deaths-israel.html


Ah.. nothing like good old arab propaganda. Why not post what actually happens when a palestinian missile hits a house ?

www.cbn.com

cdn.timesofisrael.com

www.jpost.com

images1.calcalist.co.il

And there were zero deaths! shocking isn't it ? you know why ? because the civilians were in their bomb shelters.
If only Hamas did the same and protected their civilians but they choose to invest their construction expertise in carefully constructed tunnels for the purpose of murdering jews:

images1.ynet.co.il

 interesting set of priorities don't you agree ?
 
2014-07-26 06:41:13 AM  
Saladin: Will you yield the city?

Balian of Ibelin: Before I lose it, I will burn it to the ground. Your holy places - ours. Every last thing in Jerusalem that drives men mad.

Saladin: I wonder if it would not be better if you did.


i.imgur.com
 
2014-07-26 07:44:51 AM  

TappingTheVein: Resident Muslim: I understand that Israel is defending against the rockets coming from Gaza.
I just found it interesting when I looked up how many people have died from these rocket attacks, the answer shocked me.
Since 2001: 28.

How many people died in Gaza yesterday?

This retarded logic always amazes me.
Israel has sophisticated alarm systems, bomb shelters almost under every house and israelis are trained to run for cover in seconds when the alarms sound. It's not as if the palestinians are not trying, they try very very hard to murder as many israeli civilians as possible. There should have been zero deaths, if you notice the dead and seriously wounded are usually kids or elderly who didn't run fast enough to the bomb shelter when the alarms started.

Tell me, if I bomb your city with thousands of missiles but you'll be in your bomb shelter because you ran for your life for the 15 seconds you get to do so, you'll just shrug it off ? see, no one died! it was nothing. Your children won't be affected in any way, right ? no harm done, no need to do something to prevent the hourly bombardment of your city.

Please explain this logic to me, i'm honestly curious.

Resident Muslim: Now do these ones:

Do you compare kids captured for throwing rocks at soldiers to Hamas' use of their own civilians as human shields ?.. hahha...hahahaha!
Go throw a rock at an armed soldier anywhere else, let me know how it worked out.

Resident Muslim: In case you are wondering where I got the number of rockets casualties and ask for a citation:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/rocket-deaths-israel.html

Ah.. nothing like good old arab propaganda. Why not post what actually happens when a palestinian missile hits a house ?

And there were zero deaths! shocking isn't it ? you know why ? because the civilians were in their bomb shelters.
If only Hamas did the same and protected their civilians but they choose to invest their construction expertise in carefully constructed tunnels for the purpose of murdering jews:

 interesting set of priorities don't you agree ?


Re logic:
Since you are honestly curious, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and answer sincerely.
Israel is always trying to portray itself as a victim.
It is constantly sending missiles into Gaza and then crying foul when the Palestinians do the same.
Before you even think I'm supporting lobbing any kind of weapons into civilian populations, I just want to state that I am against "collateral damage"
Hundreds of civilian Palestinians are killed in any operation, and your response is that they should be better protecting themselves?
Explain to me what logic is it when you kill hundreds of civilians and starve and terrorize thousands, yet still claim to be a victim?

Re throwing rocks at soldiers:
You told me to throw rocks at soldiers and see what happens. Agreed. The result would not end pleasantly.
Can you tell me where in THE WORLD do you ever see kids throwing rocks at soldiers?
Where in the world does that even make sense to do such a thing? And by a kid nonetheless?

Re number of Israeli deaths since 2001:
Mondoweiss is Arab propaganda? Or was the author Arab and I didn't notice?

Re destroyed Israeli house:
I honestly hope there were no civilian casualties in that.
Here is a GIS for Gaza timed to the last week. See what it looks like:
https://www.google.ae/search?q=gaza&client=safari&hl=en&tbm=isch&sour c e=lnt&tbs=qdr:w&sa=X&ei=GJDTU76CPK-U0QXI7YAo&ved=0CBMQpwU&dpr=2&biw=10 24&bih=672
(Sorry, doesn't pop)

Re tunnels:
Those tunnels are for murdering Israelis?
How many Israelis were murdered? Where do the lead to-from?
Excuse my ignorance.

Re Israelis:
You think those Israelis are native?

Imagine living in your home. Now someone (depending on which version you take either a) an attacker b) a roommate c) a renter ) takes over your home and forces you and your family into the basement. Then controls when and if you get access to the kitchen and bathroom. How would you feel? Every time you try to resist, you and your family get beaten up.
Now the squatter has taken over your deed, and whenever the cops get involved, they tell you that you should be grateful to have a basement to live in, regardless out what filth, squalor and hunger you and your family end up in. And by the way, stop fighting the (new) homeowner.


/again, I ask you, where in the world do you see kids throwing rocks at soldiers? Not police mind you, soldiers. Knowing full well what happens if they are caught.
//you see logic in that?
 
2014-07-26 09:19:20 AM  
I know there are Sabbath elevators and Sabbath lights, but are there Sabbath alts?
 
2014-07-26 09:43:08 AM  

Resident Muslim: Israel is always trying to portray itself as a victim.
It is constantly sending missiles into Gaza and then crying foul when the Palestinians do the same.


BS. Israel fires on Gaza as a response to palestinians firing on Israel. Why do you ignore this little fact ?

Resident Muslim: Hundreds of civilian Palestinians are killed in any operation, and your response is that they should be better protecting themselves?


No, i'm saying very clearly that Hamas doesn't give a flying fark about their civilians and they focus all their resources on the 'death to the jews' department. If they instead built bomb shelters, and as you can clearly see they have the means to do so, the palestinian civilian death toll would be minimal. But Hamas' goal is to have as many dead palestinian civilians as possible.

Resident Muslim: Explain to me what logic is it when you kill hundreds of civilians and starve and terrorize thousands, yet still claim to be a victim?


I'm sorry, having Israel bombed on an hourly basis in unacceptable. Israel does whatever any other country would do in its position, defend its civilians.  Israel attempts to limit civilian casualties in lengths which are unparalleled in warfare history, Hamas puts every effort to increase palestinians civilian casualties, in fact they are proud of it.

You still haven't addressed your idiotic logic ("look..look.. only so few of them die!"), so I ask again:

This retarded logic always amazes me.
Israel has sophisticated alarm systems, bomb shelters almost under every house and israelis are trained to run for cover in seconds when the alarms sound. It's not as if the palestinians are not trying, they try very very hard to murder as many israeli civilians as possible. There should have been zero deaths, if you notice the dead and seriously wounded are usually kids or elderly who didn't run fast enough to the bomb shelter when the alarms started.

Tell me, if I bomb your city with thousands of missiles but you'll be in your bomb shelter because you ran for your life for the 15 seconds you get to do so, you'll just shrug it off ? see, no one died! it was nothing. Your children won't be affected in any way, right ? no harm done, no need to do something to prevent the hourly bombardment of your city.

Please explain this logic to me, i'm honestly curious.

Resident Muslim: You told me to throw rocks at soldiers and see what happens. Agreed. The result would not end pleasantly.
Can you tell me where in THE WORLD do you ever see kids throwing rocks at soldiers?


Yes, everywhere insanely stupid mothers send their children to throw rocks at soldiers and are very proud of it.

Resident Muslim: Where in the world does that even make sense to do such a thing? And by a kid nonetheless?


When it creates a great photo-op. Hey, it fooled you didn't it ?

Resident Muslim: Mondoweiss is Arab propaganda? Or was the author Arab and I didn't notice?


The 'look..look.. the rockets and missiles are doing absolutely nothing, why is Israel shooting at us' is classic arab propaganda BS. Realty is actually the polar opposite as i clearly proved.

Resident Muslim: I honestly hope there were no civilian casualties in that.


I was very very clear: there were zero deaths because israelis run to the bomb shelters when the alarm sounds. You were 'shocked' that there are so few israeli casualties from palestinians missiles, now you know why and why your idiotic logic of comparison to the palestinian number of casualties is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

Resident Muslim: Here is a GIS for Gaza timed to the last week. See what it looks like


I know what it looks like, I also know who is to blame for It. If Hamas stopped lobbing rocket at Israel in the next 5min, Israel would stop firing on Gaza in the next 5 min.

Resident Muslim: Those tunnels are for murdering Israelis?


Yes. Tunnels that go from Gaza and exit under Israel. They use it to enter Israel and murder israelis. So far they tried (and failed) about 4 times in the last week or so.
Here's an example of one.

Resident Muslim: How many Israelis were murdered? Where do the lead to-from?


Again with this idiotic logic. They weren't killed because they were stopped by Israel, killed successfully before they could murder or like in this case kidnap israelis.

Resident Muslim: Excuse my ignorance.


Glad I could be of assistance. Feel free to ask any more questions.

Resident Muslim: You think those Israelis are native?

Imagine living in your home. Now someone (depending on which version you take either a) an attacker b) a roommate c) a renter ) takes over your home and forces you and your family into the basement. Then controls when and if you get access to the kitchen and bathroom. How would you feel? Every time you try to resist, you and your family get beaten up.
Now the squatter has taken over your deed, and whenever the cops get involved, they tell you that you should be grateful to have a basement to live in, regardless out what filth, squalor and hunger you and your family end up in. And by the way, stop fighting the (new) homeowner.


You basically ignored every major fact and event related to the region in the last 2 centuries.
Where to begin ? jews always had a presence in Israel, jews bought land to settle in Israel, they accepted the Partition Plan, the arabs rejected it, every major change in Israel territory was a result of arabs attempting to destroy Israel, both PLO and Hamas are committed to the eradication of Israel and so on etc..

Resident Muslim: again, I ask you, where in the world do you see kids throwing rocks at soldiers? Not police mind you, soldiers


Again I answer:  everywhere insanely stupid mothers send their children to throw rocks at armed soldiers.

Resident Muslim: Knowing full well what happens if they are caught


Yes, it makes great photo-op opportunities. Fooled you didn't it ?

Resident Muslim: you see logic in that?


Yes since Hamas explained it quite clearly. Now that is some farked up mentality.

By the way, what do you say about what is happening all over the arab/muslim world today ? muslims slaughtering other muslims of a slightly different sect. What is the death toll in Syria nowdays ? 170,000 ? in Iraq ? Libya ?
 
2014-07-26 09:58:51 AM  

Resident Muslim: TappingTheVein: Resident Muslim: I understand that Israel is defending against the rockets coming from Gaza.
I just found it interesting when I looked up how many people have died from these rocket attacks, the answer shocked me.
Since 2001: 28.

How many people died in Gaza yesterday?

This retarded logic always amazes me.
Israel has sophisticated alarm systems, bomb shelters almost under every house and israelis are trained to run for cover in seconds when the alarms sound. It's not as if the palestinians are not trying, they try very very hard to murder as many israeli civilians as possible. There should have been zero deaths, if you notice the dead and seriously wounded are usually kids or elderly who didn't run fast enough to the bomb shelter when the alarms started.

Tell me, if I bomb your city with thousands of missiles but you'll be in your bomb shelter because you ran for your life for the 15 seconds you get to do so, you'll just shrug it off ? see, no one died! it was nothing. Your children won't be affected in any way, right ? no harm done, no need to do something to prevent the hourly bombardment of your city.

Please explain this logic to me, i'm honestly curious.

Resident Muslim: Now do these ones:

Do you compare kids captured for throwing rocks at soldiers to Hamas' use of their own civilians as human shields ?.. hahha...hahahaha!
Go throw a rock at an armed soldier anywhere else, let me know how it worked out.

Resident Muslim: In case you are wondering where I got the number of rockets casualties and ask for a citation:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/rocket-deaths-israel.html

Ah.. nothing like good old arab propaganda. Why not post what actually happens when a palestinian missile hits a house ?


And there were zero deaths! shocking isn't it ? you know why ? because the civilians were in their bomb shelters.
If only Hamas did the same and protected their civilians but they choose to invest their construction expertise in carefully construc ...


Let me repeat... if Hamas wouldn't use Human shields the Civilian causalities in Gaza would be extremely low.  So instead of complaining about Israel why don't you complain to Hamas, Iran, Qatar, and whomever else Hamas will listen to.

The Throwing rocks at soldiers... you ask why these children are driven to do such things... because they are taught to hate Israel and being a Martyr is a good thing.  So once again they can quit teaching their Children to hate; you know love their children more than they hate us.

The Terror Tunnels... There has been Israeli deaths due to the Tunnels, they used them in a surprise attack a few days ago to kill and wound Israeli citizens before they were stopped.  So far 37 Israelis soldiers have lost their lifes.  Oh and lets not forget the children, not Israeli children though, Gazan children.  Hamas used forced child labor to help build those tunnels and a 2012 report by the Institute of Palestinian Studies 160 children were killed constructing the Terror Tunnels. That was in 2012 I wonder how many more died since that was published.

Do I think the Israelis are Native... Yes. A Jewish presence in Israel has been constant since 70 CE, even after the forced exile of the Jewish peoples after the Great Jewish Revolt ending in 70 CE a remnant of the people were allowed to remain.  The constant people of Israel has always been Jews.  The current people that refer to themselves as 'Palestinians" (a name given to Israel by the Romans as a punishment for the revolt) first appeared in Israel during the Ottoman Empire, they were forced to relocate to offset the rising Jewish population. So yes Israelis are the Native peoples of Israel.

Your narrative about being forced to live in your basement is flawed and inaccurate.  Imagine instead you buy land your ancestors originally owned, (which the Jews did pre-WWI) you build a house and settle your family down.  But years later the previous land owners show up and demand you give them back your land.  When you refuse they skip the local authorities and go to the UN... the UN then announces that you are illegally occupying their land.  Sounds crazy right... well that is what occurred. (a rather simplified version, but that is the gist of it).

The current situation in Gaza is of Hamas' own doing; if Israel had not taken the measures it has Israel would face much worse problems.  Essentially Hamas is standing there threatening Israel that it is going to harm itself if Israel doesn't give into its demands... and then when Hamas cuts off its own thumb it turns to the world and crys "see what Israel did to me" and the world gripes at Israel.  I find it weird the world is complaining about Egypt.. you know Gaza's other neighbor; Gaza use to be part of Egypt and the people in Gaza use to be Egyptian citizens... Egypt is also blockading Gaza, Egypt has also sealed its border off with Gaza.  But only Israel is the aggressor according to your flawed narrative.  The problem is Hamas; it harms its own people in pursuit of its hatred and blood lust for the destruction of Israel.  So how about you go complain to them about their actions.
 
2014-07-26 10:15:00 AM  
Eshkar: I find it weird the world isn't complaining about Egypt
 
2014-07-26 10:27:47 AM  

Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[newsjunkiepost.com image 500x595 ...


How about a Hamas militant firing rockets and using kids as a shield instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vHDyuSTneA

How about a group of kids being held by a mortar to prevent a retaliatory strike by Israel instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu54aSM6QOE

How about Hamas militant dragging kids with him to keep the IDF from firing at him instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE


I could be wrong. This could all be indoctrination or militia training for the young ones........maybe you can correct me.
 
2014-07-26 05:53:21 PM  

TappingTheVein: Resident Muslim: Israel is always trying to portray itself as a victim.
It is constantly sending missiles into Gaza and then crying foul when the Palestinians do the same.

BS. Israel fires on Gaza as a response to palestinians firing on Israel. Why do you ignore this little fact ?

Resident Muslim: Hundreds of civilian Palestinians are killed in any operation, and your response is that they should be better protecting themselves?

No, i'm saying very clearly that Hamas doesn't give a flying fark about their civilians and they focus all their resources on the 'death to the jews' department. If they instead built bomb shelters, and as you can clearly see they have the means to do so, the palestinian civilian death toll would be minimal. But Hamas' goal is to have as many dead palestinian civilians as possible.

Resident Muslim: Explain to me what logic is it when you kill hundreds of civilians and starve and terrorize thousands, yet still claim to be a victim?

I'm sorry, having Israel bombed on an hourly basis in unacceptable. Israel does whatever any other country would do in its position, defend its civilians.  Israel attempts to limit civilian casualties in lengths which are unparalleled in warfare history, Hamas puts every effort to increase palestinians civilian casualties, in fact they are proud of it.

You still haven't addressed your idiotic logic ("look..look.. only so few of them die!"), so I ask again:

This retarded logic always amazes me.
Israel has sophisticated alarm systems, bomb shelters almost under every house and israelis are trained to run for cover in seconds when the alarms sound. It's not as if the palestinians are not trying, they try very very hard to murder as many israeli civilians as possible. There should have been zero deaths, if you notice the dead and seriously wounded are usually kids or elderly who didn't run fast enough to the bomb shelter when the alarms started.

Tell me, if I bomb your city with thousands of missiles but you'll be in your bomb shelter because you ran for your life for the 15 seconds you get to do so, you'll just shrug it off ? see, no one died! it was nothing. Your children won't be affected in any way, right ? no harm done, no need to do something to prevent the hourly bombardment of your city.

Please explain this logic to me, i'm honestly curious.

Resident Muslim: You told me to throw rocks at soldiers and see what happens. Agreed. The result would not end pleasantly.
Can you tell me where in THE WORLD do you ever see kids throwing rocks at soldiers?

Yes, everywhere insanely stupid mothers send their children to throw rocks at soldiers and are very proud of it.

Resident Muslim: Where in the world does that even make sense to do such a thing? And by a kid nonetheless?

When it creates a great photo-op. Hey, it fooled you didn't it ?

Resident Muslim: Mondoweiss is Arab propaganda? Or was the author Arab and I didn't notice?

The 'look..look.. the rockets and missiles are doing absolutely nothing, why is Israel shooting at us' is classic arab propaganda BS. Realty is actually the polar opposite as i clearly proved.

Resident Muslim: I honestly hope there were no civilian casualties in that.

I was very very clear: there were zero deaths because israelis run to the bomb shelters when the alarm sounds. You were 'shocked' that there are so few israeli casualties from palestinians missiles, now you know why and why your idiotic logic of comparison to the palestinian number of casualties is an insult to anyone's intelligence.

Resident Muslim: Here is a GIS for Gaza timed to the last week. See what it looks like

I know what it looks like, I also know who is to blame for It. If Hamas stopped lobbing rocket at Israel in the next 5min, Israel would stop firing on Gaza in the next 5 min.

Resident Muslim: Those tunnels are for murdering Israelis?

Yes. Tunnels that go from Gaza and exit under Israel. They use it to enter Israel and murder israelis. So far they tried (and failed) about 4 times in the last week or so.
Here's an example of one.

Resident Muslim: How many Israelis were murdered? Where do the lead to-from?

Again with this idiotic logic. They weren't killed because they were stopped by Israel, killed successfully before they could murder or like in this case kidnap israelis.

Resident Muslim: Excuse my ignorance.

Glad I could be of assistance. Feel free to ask any more questions.

Resident Muslim: You think those Israelis are native?

Imagine living in your home. Now someone (depending on which version you take either a) an attacker b) a roommate c) a renter ) takes over your home and forces you and your family into the basement. Then controls when and if you get access to the kitchen and bathroom. How would you feel? Every time you try to resist, you and your family get beaten up.
Now the squatter has taken over your deed, and whenever the cops get involved, they tell you that you should be grateful to have a basement to live in, regardless out what filth, squalor and hunger you and your family end up in. And by the way, stop fighting the (new) homeowner.

You basically ignored every major fact and event related to the region in the last 2 centuries.
Where to begin ? jews always had a presence in Israel, jews bought land to settle in Israel, they accepted the Partition Plan, the arabs rejected it, every major change in Israel territory was a result of arabs attempting to destroy Israel, both PLO and Hamas are committed to the eradication of Israel and so on etc..

Resident Muslim: again, I ask you, where in the world do you see kids throwing rocks at soldiers? Not police mind you, soldiers

Again I answer:  everywhere insanely stupid mothers send their children to throw rocks at armed soldiers.

Resident Muslim: Knowing full well what happens if they are caught

Yes, it makes great photo-op opportunities. Fooled you didn't it ?

Resident Muslim: you see logic in that?

Yes since Hamas explained it quite clearly. Now that is some farked up mentality.

By the way, what do you say about what is happening all over the arab/muslim world today ? muslims slaughtering other muslims of a slightly different sect. What is the death toll in Syria nowdays ? 170,000 ? in Iraq ? Libya ?


So the best answer you've got to everything I've mentioned is "NO U!!"
 
2014-07-26 05:54:01 PM  

Giltric: Resident Muslim: Daedalus27: Resident Muslim: Eshkar: Resident Muslim: wademh: Hamas is evil in that they are so very willing to encourage civilian casualties as a side-effect of their belligerent activity against Israel and Israel is evil because they are so very very willing to oblige Hamas in this respect, and even encourage continued mutual belligerence.

I almost wish I could engineer a pox that attacked people who are so full of hate, except I guess that actually wanting to do so would be a bit of a suicide attack.

what Hamas using human shields looks like:
[www.imemc.org image 340x264]

Or how about some hot girls and the IDF:
[algerienetwork.com image 620x349]

/am I doing this wrong?
//look up Breaking the Silence by a group of Israeli Veterans.

Well something you evidently missed... the kid on the hood was arrested during violent 'protest' or in truth riots... as was the kid handcuffed (throwing stones... not rocks and Molotov cocktails at soldiers is frowned upon...).  None of them are being used as shields.  The blonde girl has been detained during several west bank 'protest' (riots).  Her parents take her there and then the girl physically assaults the soldiers while mommy and daddy take pictures... Even here in the US if a girl of 10 attacks a police officer they will be taken into custody.  The girl is trying to run away from the officer she was just attacking.  The girl is released into her parents custody shortly thereafter.

Your attempt at using pictures taken out of context is pathetic.  Israel doesn't hold weapons up to people and force them to stay in a house that is about to be bombed... nope Israel calls ahead and tells the people to get out... Hamas on the other hand wants international support by making their civilians die, while they hide in tunnels that were built using relief aid that was meant for the people... who never saw any of it.


you are so good, I'm not even going to ask you for a citation.
Now do these ones:
[newsjunkiepost.com image 500x595 ...

How about a Hamas militant firing rockets and using kids as a shield instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vHDyuSTneA

How about a group of kids being held by a mortar to prevent a retaliatory strike by Israel instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu54aSM6QOE

How about Hamas militant dragging kids with him to keep the IDF from firing at him instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE


I could be wrong. This could all be indoctrination or militia training for the young ones........maybe you can correct me.


If I'm not mistaken:
1) shows infrared signature of people huddling against attacks. Couldn't see anything more than that
2) agreed. Indoctrination with someone on a loudspeaker with kids gathered to watch the launch. This definitely puts the kids at risk of a retaliation attack
3) you see kids huddling against the wall (I'm guessing to avoid live fire based on how fast the armed guy was running). The lone kid hiding behind a thin column is snatched up and presumably taken to a safe(r) position.

/wag the dog
//there is a reason I have only ventured once into the politics tab in my 5 years here
///bows out
 
2014-07-26 06:20:38 PM  

Resident Muslim: So the best answer you've got to everything I've mentioned is "NO U!!"


I'm not surprised you ignore everything i posted. That was expected when being faced with facts not to your liking.
 
2014-07-26 06:36:15 PM  

Resident Muslim: If I'm not mistaken:
1) shows infrared signature of people huddling against attacks. Couldn't see anything more than that
2) agreed. Indoctrination with someone on a loudspeaker with kids gathered to watch the launch. This definitely puts the kids at risk of a retaliation attack
3) you see kids huddling against the wall (I'm guessing to avoid live fire based on how fast the armed guy was running). The lone kid hiding behind a thin column is snatched up and presumably taken to a safe(r) position.


Bahahaha...ahaha!.. oh man. Thanks, i needed the laugh.
Well, what can you expect ? why accept facts when you can lie to yourself ?

Hamas saying "yes. we use our own civilians as human shields and by Allah we are damn proud of it!" is what exactly ? come on, come up with another lying excuse.
Be creative.
 
2014-07-27 04:00:47 AM  
Resident Muslim: I just found it interesting when I looked up how many people have died from these rocket attacks, the answer shocked me.
Since 2001: 28. ...

How many people died in Gaza yesterday?


Well, that is what happens when you go up against someone with better weapons and better aim.
 
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