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(Village Voice)   In 1951, the FBI thought the Soviets might be hiding an atomic bomb somewhere in New York City   (blogs.villagevoice.com) divider line 78
    More: Strange, FBI Thought, FBI, New York City, Soviet Union, atomic bombs, Joe McCarthy, Soviet Premier, FBI files  
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5138 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jul 2014 at 6:23 PM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-23 03:56:07 PM  
That actually could have worked fairly well for the Soviets.

At that time, we wouldn't have had any radiation monitoring to speak of, and the parts for a relatively simple and robust gun-type bomb would have been relatively easy to smuggle in:  Uranium disks and rings would be pretty much the only thing you'd have needed to smuggle in, and they'd be small in volume so a conventional diplomatic bag with just a bit of shielding would have worked.   Everything else could have been purchased locally, and in such as way as to not arouse suspicion.  And it could be assembled in situ.

In the absence of a reliable long-range delivery method in case of war, it's a perfectly cromulent plan, and only an extension of the known plans the Soviets had for the United States:

Ex-Soviet Spy Testifies on Hidden Weapons.
 
2014-07-23 04:02:29 PM  

dittybopper: That actually could have worked fairly well for the Soviets.


Right up until their first nuke-capable ICBM launch.  And I suspect the CIA thought hard about putting one in Moscow, too.
 
2014-07-23 04:26:47 PM  
Except we probably had them in Moscow too for exactly this contingency
 
2014-07-23 04:28:18 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: dittybopper: That actually could have worked fairly well for the Soviets.

Right up until their first nuke-capable ICBM launch.  And I suspect the CIA thought hard about putting one in Moscow, too.


Even well past then:  Their first ICBM (the SS-7 Sapwood) weren't anything like a credible threat:  They had to be erected, fueled, and then fired, a process that took nearly a complete day (20 hours), and it could only be on alert for about a day because the oxidizer, liquid oxygen, would evaporate if left in the tanks too long.  It became operational in 1959.

It wasn't until the SS-8 Sasin was introduced in 1964 that they had a credible missile force.
 
2014-07-23 04:34:03 PM  
dittybopper: Their first ICBM (the SS-7 SS-6 Sapwood) weren't anything like a credible threat
...
It wasn't until the SS-8 Sasin was introduced in 1964 SS-7 Saddler  was introduced that they had a credible missile force.


FTFM.  Serves me right for trying to post while actually writing code.
 
2014-07-23 04:47:55 PM  

flucto: Except we probably had them in Moscow too for exactly this contingency


Probably not.  At the time, we had a pretty high confidence that we could get a bomber through to Moscow.  It wouldn't have been necessary.
 
2014-07-23 05:28:56 PM  
i240.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-23 05:45:09 PM  
Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret!11!
 
2014-07-23 05:47:20 PM  
And the best they could do was fall in love
 
2014-07-23 06:28:04 PM  
Another NYC-Soviet related nuclear fear was the Soviet detonation of a warhead in the waters just outside NYC. The tsunami wave created by  the blast would have scraped Manhattan bare.
 
2014-07-23 06:29:20 PM  

Fano: And the best they could do was fall in love


I know it's crazy. But it's true.
 
2014-07-23 06:31:25 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: dittybopper: That actually could have worked fairly well for the Soviets.

Right up until their first nuke-capable ICBM launch.  And I suspect the CIA thought hard about putting one in Moscow, too.


akoxix.files.wordpress.com

Saw the documentary.
 
2014-07-23 06:33:54 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: Fano: And the best they could do was fall in love

I know it's crazy. But it's true.


If you can make a bomb here you can make it anywhere.
 
2014-07-23 06:35:22 PM  
So Paranoia but Russia to justify absurd defense budgets is not a new thing?
 
2014-07-23 06:35:39 PM  
It seems like true believers in Communism would be reluctant to do this, as the slow inexorable evolution of human economy was going to win in the long run anyway, and capitalism was a necessary stage to evolve into communism.  Why risk getting turned into radioactive ash when you were going to win anyway?

The Cold War commies were not stupid, they just had an unrealistic opinion about how well information could actually be controlled.

That and an unrealistic philosophy.  Economic equality and true communism will happen when women (on average) stop finding power and money attractive.
 
2014-07-23 06:38:13 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Saw the documentary.


I don't care what people say, I loved those two movies.
 
2014-07-23 06:39:18 PM  
Interesting that Subby thinks that's 'strange'

Must be really young
 
2014-07-23 06:42:28 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret!11!


Mein Furhur, I can walk!
 
2014-07-23 06:45:05 PM  
Paging Frederick Forsyth...

/The Fourth Protocol.
 
2014-07-23 06:46:41 PM  
img.fark.net
And one of the citizens gets the detonator?
 
2014-07-23 06:49:39 PM  
" In November 1951, the agency also began asking customs agents to look out for odd packages with diplomatic seals on them, specifically ones "which appear to be suspiciously heavy in proportion to their dimensions." "

No way the Soviets would have thought to put something small and heavy into an oversized crate.

The FBI should have had customs searching for packages with unusually small moments of inertia for their size and weight.
 
2014-07-23 06:52:04 PM  
Has anyone checked under Donald Trump's comb-over?
 
2014-07-23 06:52:28 PM  
Russian ICBM ya say?

bookfightpod.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-07-23 06:55:15 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: dittybopper: That actually could have worked fairly well for the Soviets.

Right up until their first nuke-capable ICBM launch.


Even then, first strike capability has its merits.
 
2014-07-23 06:55:53 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Marcus Aurelius: dittybopper: That actually could have worked fairly well for the Soviets.

Right up until their first nuke-capable ICBM launch.  And I suspect the CIA thought hard about putting one in Moscow, too.

img.fark.net
Saw the documentary.


Rick decided not bo buy it because there's just not enough of a market in Las Vegas for it, and the paperwork didn't support it as a collector's item.
 
2014-07-23 06:57:56 PM  
zero hour
 
2014-07-23 07:06:07 PM  
In a much more damaging turn of events, much worse than a Soviet nuke in New York, by 1951 the US was in middle of the second great Red Scare in our history and the FBI was more concerned with finding the communists under every bed in the nation.
 
2014-07-23 07:06:41 PM  
.............and in 2003, dickie cheney and his hoodies thought saddam hussein was hiding weapons of mass destruction too.

Stirring up Fear among the population has its rewards.
 
2014-07-23 07:06:57 PM  

ko_kyi: Economic equality and true communism will happen when women (on average) stop finding power and money attractive.


All you have to do there is unwind a set of highly successful behavioral traits reinforced over 165+ million years of evolution.


/Good luck with that.
 
2014-07-23 07:07:05 PM  
why didn't they just ask the rosenbergs?
 
2014-07-23 07:08:37 PM  
Plausable. You need a truck to move the Soviet's version.....
i1280.photobucket.com

Ours wasn't much better.....

i1280.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-23 07:09:22 PM  
I've read " Enemies:A History of the FBI" and I'm now reading "Legacy of Ashes" (about the CIA) and believe it is probable that had it actually existed, the CIA and FBI would never have found it and we would all be dead.
 
2014-07-23 07:10:01 PM  
Patton wanted to attack the Soviets immediately after Germany's surrender, with the American military conveniently already deployed in Europe.  His superiors thought he was insane and an embarrassment to their leadership, so he was retired and sent home.  Six years later and the FBI is looking for Soviet nukes in NYC.  Not long after and the US and USSR are willing to kill everyone else in the world to settle their own personal dispute. 

I can't help but think that if Patton had his way the Cold war and all the bullshiat that came from it could have been averted.  I'm not sure if the combined allied forces (minus Russia, of course) in Europe could have pushed back the Soviet army or not, but with the Pacific fleet and other resources soon freed up by Japan's surrender they could have attacked from two directions.  I'm sure additional nukes would have been sent to Moscow and elsewhere, given their success in Japan.  The world might have been a better place.  Sure, men would have died, but those deaths would be worth avoiding the Cold War and its arms race, the Soviet supply of weapons to the Third World and the spread of corrupted "communism" to other countries.
 
2014-07-23 07:10:14 PM  
Suitable Punishment has been Administered to the Fear Mongers.


http://www.heaven666.org/blue-balls-40-77550.php     (NSFW)
 
2014-07-23 07:11:20 PM  
У нас еще есть их ...
 
2014-07-23 07:20:37 PM  
They set us up the bomb?
 
2014-07-23 07:20:45 PM  

wambu: I've read " Enemies:A History of the FBI" and I'm now reading "Legacy of Ashes" (about the CIA) and believe it is probable that had it actually existed, the CIA and FBI would never have found it and we would all be dead.


Have you read "The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB"?  I imagine that if it had actually existed, it would have been mentioned there.
 
2014-07-23 07:21:01 PM  
"In the incredibly overheated, paranoid environment of the War on Terror, anything seemed possible. Senators saw Terrorists hiding in every broom closet."

Story to be written approximately 50 years from today.

I wonder what the big scare will be then,  Chinese maybe?
 
2014-07-23 07:22:38 PM  

Pattuq: Patton wanted to attack the Soviets immediately after Germany's surrender, with the American military conveniently already deployed in Europe.  His superiors thought he was insane and an embarrassment to their leadership, so he was retired and sent home.  Six years later and the FBI is looking for Soviet nukes in NYC.  Not long after and the US and USSR are willing to kill everyone else in the world to settle their own personal dispute. 

I can't help but think that if Patton had his way the Cold war and all the bullshiat that came from it could have been averted.  I'm not sure if the combined allied forces (minus Russia, of course) in Europe could have pushed back the Soviet army or not, but with the Pacific fleet and other resources soon freed up by Japan's surrender they could have attacked from two directions.  I'm sure additional nukes would have been sent to Moscow and elsewhere, given their success in Japan.  The world might have been a better place.  Sure, men would have died, but those deaths would be worth avoiding the Cold War and its arms race, the Soviet supply of weapons to the Third World and the spread of corrupted "communism" to other countries.


Probably they could have. The GDP of the US alone was well over 50% of the total GDP of the Allies. The Soviet Army was supplied in very significant ways by the US. Without that support, and fighting a combined US, UK, and probably German army, they'd have been beaten back to their pre-war borders fairly quickly.
 
2014-07-23 07:23:47 PM  

Boo_Guy: "In the incredibly overheated, paranoid environment of the War on Terror, anything seemed possible. Senators saw Terrorists hiding in every broom closet."

Story to be written approximately 50 years from today.

I wonder what the big scare will be then,  Chinese maybe?


You think they aren't a concern now?
 
2014-07-23 07:35:32 PM  
static.comicvine.com

Is on the case.

Trivia note:  The DOC SAVAGE story "THE RED SPIDER" deals with a plot by the Soviets to destroy New York City
by secreting a nuclear weapon in the hold of a freighter.  It was written in 1948 but killed by an editor because he
thought it was too scary a scenario.  It wasn't published until 1975, and is a rather interesting late pulp era tale
very reminiscent of a James Bond story (at least, that's what I remember; I read it years ago but don't remember it
too clearly)
 
2014-07-23 07:36:35 PM  

Pattuq: Patton wanted to attack the Soviets immediately after Germany's surrender, with the American military conveniently already deployed in Europe.  His superiors thought he was insane and an embarrassment to their leadership, so he was retired and sent home.  Six years later and the FBI is looking for Soviet nukes in NYC.  Not long after and the US and USSR are willing to kill everyone else in the world to settle their own personal dispute. 

I can't help but think that if Patton had his way the Cold war and all the bullshiat that came from it could have been averted.  I'm not sure if the combined allied forces (minus Russia, of course) in Europe could have pushed back the Soviet army or not, but with the Pacific fleet and other resources soon freed up by Japan's surrender they could have attacked from two directions.  I'm sure additional nukes would have been sent to Moscow and elsewhere, given their success in Japan.  The world might have been a better place.  Sure, men would have died, but those deaths would be worth avoiding the Cold War and its arms race, the Soviet supply of weapons to the Third World and the spread of corrupted "communism" to other countries.


because you like Patton so much that you make assertions based on pure whimsical thinking...
 
2014-07-23 07:37:17 PM  

dittybopper: Boo_Guy: "In the incredibly overheated, paranoid environment of the War on Terror, anything seemed possible. Senators saw Terrorists hiding in every broom closet."

Story to be written approximately 50 years from today.

I wonder what the big scare will be then,  Chinese maybe?

You think they aren't a concern now?


No sir,  they certainly are a concern now,  but they still have some ways to go it seems with their military tech and size(not actual soldier #'s, but navy, air force fleet size)

They will become an even bigger concern as they catch up of course.
 
2014-07-23 07:41:12 PM  

Whatchoo Talkinbout: Plausable. You need a truck to move the Soviet's version.....
[i1280.photobucket.com image 300x199]

Ours wasn't much better.....

[i1280.photobucket.com image 250x182]


If only the Soviets had found a way to deliver a truck-sized object to NYC.
img.fark.net
 
2014-07-23 07:43:02 PM  

JesseL: No way the Soviets would have thought to put something small and heavy into an oversized crate.

The FBI should have had customs searching for packages with unusually small moments of inertia for their size and weight.


Neat idea, but works only if you make the assumption the mass in question was going to be precisely centered on all axes in that oversized crate. Or that informants would be able to arrange to handle, much less have fun spinning, all those oversized diplomatic crates. Or that informants would have the ability to measure that moment if they did. Or that the informants even knew what the hell a "moment of inertia" even was in the first place.
 
2014-07-23 07:48:12 PM  

nosearchimi: Pattuq: Patton wanted to attack the Soviets immediately after Germany's surrender, with the American military conveniently already deployed in Europe.  His superiors thought he was insane and an embarrassment to their leadership, so he was retired and sent home.  Six years later and the FBI is looking for Soviet nukes in NYC.  Not long after and the US and USSR are willing to kill everyone else in the world to settle their own personal dispute. 

I can't help but think that if Patton had his way the Cold war and all the bullshiat that came from it could have been averted.  I'm not sure if the combined allied forces (minus Russia, of course) in Europe could have pushed back the Soviet army or not, but with the Pacific fleet and other resources soon freed up by Japan's surrender they could have attacked from two directions.  I'm sure additional nukes would have been sent to Moscow and elsewhere, given their success in Japan.  The world might have been a better place.  Sure, men would have died, but those deaths would be worth avoiding the Cold War and its arms race, the Soviet supply of weapons to the Third World and the spread of corrupted "communism" to other countries.

because you like Patton so much that you make assertions based on pure whimsical thinking...


Who is making assertions?  I mention a man who had an idea that could have potentially prevented the Cold War.  How does that translate to "you like him so much you..."

I'd assume you're one of those people who love finding chances to use brainy insults on the Internet, but since I don't know you I can't do that.
 
2014-07-23 07:55:41 PM  

Pattuq: nosearchimi: Pattuq: Patton wanted to attack the Soviets immediately after Germany's surrender, with the American military conveniently already deployed in Europe.  His superiors thought he was insane and an embarrassment to their leadership, so he was retired and sent home.  Six years later and the FBI is looking for Soviet nukes in NYC.  Not long after and the US and USSR are willing to kill everyone else in the world to settle their own personal dispute. 

I can't help but think that if Patton had his way the Cold war and all the bullshiat that came from it could have been averted.  I'm not sure if the combined allied forces (minus Russia, of course) in Europe could have pushed back the Soviet army or not, but with the Pacific fleet and other resources soon freed up by Japan's surrender they could have attacked from two directions.  I'm sure additional nukes would have been sent to Moscow and elsewhere, given their success in Japan.  The world might have been a better place.  Sure, men would have died, but those deaths would be worth avoiding the Cold War and its arms race, the Soviet supply of weapons to the Third World and the spread of corrupted "communism" to other countries.

because you like Patton so much that you make assertions based on pure whimsical thinking...

Who is making assertions?  I mention a man who had an idea that could have potentially prevented the Cold War.  How does that translate to "you like him so much you..."

I'd assume you're one of those people who love finding chances to use brainy insults on the Internet, but since I don't know you I can't do that.


Patton never retired and he never came home.
 
2014-07-23 08:13:29 PM  

WelldeadLink: Whatchoo Talkinbout: Plausable. You need a truck to move the Soviet's version.....
If only the Soviets had found a way to deliver a truck-sized object to NYC.
[img.fark.net image 342x222]


I know what you mean.
i1280.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-23 08:22:55 PM  

BiffDangler: So Paranoia but Russia to justify absurd defense budgets is not a new thing?


See also: every year since 1947.
 
2014-07-23 08:24:15 PM  

Whatchoo Talkinbout: WelldeadLink: Whatchoo Talkinbout: Plausable. You need a truck to move the Soviet's version.....
If only the Soviets had found a way to deliver a truck-sized object to NYC.
[img.fark.net image 342x222]

I know what you mean.
[i1280.photobucket.com image 800x532]


The driver had to burn himself with cigarettes to stay awake.
 
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