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(Reason Magazine)   Corporate campaign contributions: evil and worthy of saturation coverage when the Koch Bros. buy Republicans. When GE buys Democrats it's okay, not news, nothing to see here   (reason.com) divider line 75
    More: Asinine, Governor Andrew Cuomo, corporate welfare, John Albion Andrew, corporate campaign, solar farm, long list  
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561 clicks; posted to Politics » on 22 Jul 2014 at 11:54 AM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-22 09:26:05 AM  
Has GE created "Think Tanks" to propagandize their message?
 
2014-07-22 09:41:16 AM  

impaler: Has GE created "Think Tanks" to propagandize their message?


They've been throwing their weight around for almost a century; I figure they've done something like that somewhere along the line. Heaven knows they pulled out all the stops to try and get out of cleaning up the PCB mess they made in the Hudson back in the day.
 
2014-07-22 09:56:10 AM  
So what you're saying is that it's okay for Republicans to play under the system they created, but not Democrats.  They should just lay down and get rolled over.  Got it.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-07-22 10:05:22 AM  
It's bad either way, but it's not the Democrats who oppose campaign finance reform.
 
2014-07-22 10:29:21 AM  

Gulper Eel: impaler: Has GE created "Think Tanks" to propagandize their message?

They've been throwing their weight around for almost a century; I figure they've done something like that somewhere along the line. Heaven knows they pulled out all the stops to try and get out of cleaning up the PCB mess they made in the Hudson back in the day.


So "They must have," but besides money being donated you can't directly draw parallels with the extensive bullshiat the Kochs have been doing with think tanks, SuperPACs, and other ways to saturate the media with their message and push for specific candidates without being limited by donation limits?
 
2014-07-22 10:30:31 AM  

vpb: It's bad either way, but it's not the Democrats who oppose campaign finance reform.


Or environmental protections or consumer advocacy or reforming education loans or regulating Wall St. or ending the War on Drugs or

Fark it. I'm tired.
 
2014-07-22 10:32:52 AM  
Public funding of elections should make you guys really happy then, right? As a libby lib, I'd happily join you guys in this effort. It would save taxpayers a shiat ton. Are you with me?
 
2014-07-22 10:50:33 AM  

vpb: It's bad either way, but it's not the Democrats who oppose campaign finance reform.


Because it's a utopian fool's errand. Separating money from politics is like trying to separate drinking from Fark.

Campaign finance reform is nothing more than the War on (Some) Money...and it's promoted by people who applaud when a central government grabs power for itself (long as it's their party's guy, anyway), who then profess to be astounded and outraged when efforts to buy a piece of that increased power intensify, and who then insist that the problem was that we didn't grant the central government enough power so we should do that and everything will be all better this time.

You solve the issue of politicians selling their power by allowing them less power to sell in the first place, not by adding layers of loophole-laden legalese that only the biggest players can navigate.
 
2014-07-22 11:09:23 AM  

Demetrius: So what you're saying is that it's okay for Republicans to play under the system they created, but not Democrats.  They should just lay down and get rolled over.  Got it.


Apparently we have to say this in every one of these threads.  You can either be a hypocrite and win elections and maybe fix the system down the road, or you can be an idealist and lose every election down to dog catcher.  These are the rules in John Roberts' America, so everyone has to play by them.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-07-22 11:14:53 AM  

Gulper Eel: vpb: It's bad either way, but it's not the Democrats who oppose campaign finance reform.

Because it's a utopian fool's errand. Separating money from politics is like trying to separate drinking from Fark.

Campaign finance reform is nothing more than the War on (Some) Money...and it's promoted by people who applaud when a central government grabs power for itself (long as it's their party's guy, anyway), who then profess to be astounded and outraged when efforts to buy a piece of that increased power intensify, and who then insist that the problem was that we didn't grant the central government enough power so we should do that and everything will be all better this time.

You solve the issue of politicians selling their power by allowing them less power to sell in the first place, not by adding layers of loophole-laden legalese that only the biggest players can navigate.


Other countries seem able to do it without much trouble.

I guess we are just exceptional.
 
2014-07-22 11:30:05 AM  

vpb: Other countries seem able to do it without much trouble.


Which ones comparable to the US do - China? Russia? India? Indonesia? Brazil?

I'm sure it's wonderful that a boutique nation like Norway can pull it off, but they're the Vermont of Europe.
 
2014-07-22 11:55:43 AM  
So your argument is "You can't fark with the system! Only we should fark with the system!"?
 
2014-07-22 11:56:49 AM  

Gulper Eel: I'm sure it's wonderful that a boutique nation like Norway can pull it off, but they're the Vermont of Europe.


Hey look, a non sequitur statement bereft of logic, presented as argument. You should write for Reason.
 
2014-07-22 11:57:43 AM  
A GE report on silicon carbide touts that the material "could" improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms "by more than one percent."

oh wow that's pretty weak why would they pursue this if it's the only benefit. i'd better click the link to see what's up

Merfeld and Stevanovic estimate that the chips could make trains, planes and automobiles run up to 10 percent more efficiently, reduce the energy footprint of datacenters by 5 percent, and improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms by more than 1 percent (our inforgraphic has more examples).

welp
 
2014-07-22 11:58:05 AM  

impaler: Has GE created "Think Tanks" to propagandize their message?


No. Obama created the think tank on jobs and competitiveness and gave Immelt a spot, and then those companies laid off workers and avoided paying taxes.
 
2014-07-22 12:02:30 PM  
Dear subby, we knew electors from both parties were vulnerable to being purchased, bought, and sold.


We thought this would be the inevitable result, and wanted to keep money out of politics for good reason.

There's no farking hypocrisy in that position.
 
2014-07-22 12:02:35 PM  

sprawl15: A GE report on silicon carbide touts that the material "could" improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms "by more than one percent."

oh wow that's pretty weak why would they pursue this if it's the only benefit. i'd better click the link to see what's up

Merfeld and Stevanovic estimate that the chips could make trains, planes and automobiles run up to 10 percent more efficiently, reduce the energy footprint of datacenters by 5 percent, and improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms by more than 1 percent (our inforgraphic has more examples).

welp


Reason distort things?  Shocking.
 
2014-07-22 12:02:51 PM  
Checkmate, libs.
 
2014-07-22 12:03:08 PM  
And we hate GE because they own NBC and MSNBC.  And they're those filthy non-Fox people.  And that's why we hate them.  Get it?
 
2014-07-22 12:04:15 PM  
It is so different.  You see the republicans are bad.  The democrats are good.  If the democrats do something similar to the republicans: it is still for a good purpose.  When the republicans do the same thing it is for a bad purpose.  I hope this clears it all up for you.  Also Obama has no responsibility for anything bad; the blame belongs to Bush.
 
2014-07-22 12:05:09 PM  

sprawl15: A GE report on silicon carbide touts that the material "could" improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms "by more than one percent."

oh wow that's pretty weak why would they pursue this if it's the only benefit. i'd better click the link to see what's up

Merfeld and Stevanovic estimate that the chips could make trains, planes and automobiles run up to 10 percent more efficiently, reduce the energy footprint of datacenters by 5 percent, and improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms by more than 1 percent (our inforgraphic has more examples).

welp


Reason? Omitted essential facts to distort perception of a story to favor ideological right-wing views?

The hell you say!
 
2014-07-22 12:06:22 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: It is so different.  You see the republicans are bad.  The democrats are good.  If the democrats do something similar to the republicans: it is still for a good purpose.  When the republicans do the same thing it is for a bad purpose.  I hope this clears it all up for you.  Also Obama has no responsibility for anything bad; the blame belongs to Bush.


No, let's simplify this for pea-brained morons:

Money is politics is always bad, and you were idiots for supporting it, as this was an inevitable consequence.
 
2014-07-22 12:07:25 PM  

Cagey B: Gulper Eel: I'm sure it's wonderful that a boutique nation like Norway can pull it off, but they're the Vermont of Europe.


Hey look, a non sequitur statement bereft of logic, presented as argument. You should write for Reason.


Hey look, somebody who can't grasp that a country almost the size of California with a population barely the size of Alabama is not going to be much of a representative sample of successful governance in far larger nations/states.

So try answering the question. Of the world's major powers, we have a lousy campaign finance system - until you look at the alternatives.

Show me the country...the MAJOR country...with an increasingly powerful central government where monied interests  haven't bought a piece of the action.
 
2014-07-22 12:07:30 PM  
farm3.static.flickr.com
 
2014-07-22 12:08:01 PM  

Gulper Eel: vpb: Other countries seem able to do it without much trouble.

Which ones comparable to the US do - China? Russia? India? Indonesia? Brazil?

I'm sure it's wonderful that a boutique nation like Norway can pull it off, but they're the Vermont of Europe.



Is that like being "The Village Idiot of Fark"?  I ask you cuz I figure you would know.
 
2014-07-22 12:09:39 PM  

Gulper Eel: vpb: Other countries seem able to do it without much trouble.

Which ones comparable to the US do - China? Russia? India? Indonesia? Brazil?

I'm sure it's wonderful that a boutique nation like Norway can pull it off, but they're the Vermont of Europe.


What a remarkable turn of phrase. It manages to seem simultaneously incisive and dismissive while actually meaning nothing.
 
2014-07-22 12:10:54 PM  
Yeah! This is all the more damning because before GE gave them less than $100,000 the Democrats were not in any way interested in energy efficiency.
 
2014-07-22 12:11:36 PM  

someonelse: What a remarkable turn of phrase. It manages to seem simultaneously incisive and dismissive while actually meaning nothing.


Now you're in for it. He's going to move some goal posts and ask a question with about eight carefully selected qualifiers in it in response. Checkmate, libtardo.
 
2014-07-22 12:12:28 PM  
"Its not wrong when we do it" mentality is pretty shiatty

You either have principles or you don't.
 
2014-07-22 12:12:42 PM  

ikanreed: There's no farking hypocrisy in that position.


No hypocrisy, just a failure to understand the nature of political power and what becomes of people when they seek and acquire power.

Power corrupts - and by that I don't mean only that it makes them dishonest. It also magnifies incompetencies and weaknesses. That goes for your guy, my guy, and there aren't enough George Washingtons around who will demonstrate excellence and yet walk away from power when it's laid at their feet.
 
2014-07-22 12:13:34 PM  

Gulper Eel: Campaign finance reform is nothing more than the War on (Some) Money


*snort*

Gulper Eel: and it's promoted by people who applaud when a central government grabs power for itself (long as it's their party's guy, anyway), who then profess to be astounded and outraged when efforts to buy a piece of that increased power intensify, and who then insist that the problem was that we didn't grant the central government enough power so we should do that and everything will be all better this time.


Wut?
 
2014-07-22 12:15:12 PM  

Gulper Eel: No hypocrisy, just a failure to understand the nature of political power and what becomes of people when they seek and acquire power.

Power corrupts - and by that I don't mean only that it makes them dishonest. It also magnifies incompetencies and weaknesses. That goes for your guy, my guy, and there aren't enough George Washingtons around who will demonstrate excellence and yet walk away from power when it's laid at their feet.


Thanks for reiterating why money in politics is a bad idea.  The fact that you phrased it as a counter-argument is a bit odd, but I'll let it slide.
 
2014-07-22 12:15:47 PM  

Gulper Eel: Cagey B: Gulper Eel: I'm sure it's wonderful that a boutique nation like Norway can pull it off, but they're the Vermont of Europe.


Hey look, a non sequitur statement bereft of logic, presented as argument. You should write for Reason.

Hey look, somebody who can't grasp that a country almost the size of California with a population barely the size of Alabama is not going to be much of a representative sample of successful governance in far larger nations/states.

So try answering the question. Of the world's major powers, we have a lousy campaign finance system - until you look at the alternatives.

Show me the country...the MAJOR country...with an increasingly powerful central government where monied interests  haven't bought a piece of the action.


You forgot that it's also 'culturally homogeneous'.  That's a long standing crutch of real 'Muricans who refuse to admit that any other country may have done something better than 'Murica.  It's my personal favorite because you can blame all your ills on black people in a manner in which you think isn't racist.
 
2014-07-22 12:16:01 PM  

someonelse: What a remarkable turn of phrase. It manages to seem simultaneously incisive and dismissive while actually meaning nothing.


"Boutique nation" means it's about as far as possible from being a useful representative sample - for the equivalent in US states, see Vermont, Idaho, Utah, Hawaii, etc.
 
2014-07-22 12:16:24 PM  
Curious, as it seems both sides are not so valiant as I once thought.

Pray tell, which party should I then vote for?
 
2014-07-22 12:16:27 PM  

bigsteve3OOO: It is so different.  You see the republicans are bad.  The democrats are good.  If the democrats do something similar to the republicans: it is still for a good purpose.  When the republicans do the same thing it is for a bad purpose.  I hope this clears it all up for you.  Also Obama has no responsibility for anything bad; the blame belongs to Bush.


So, campaign finance reform, then? We got your support?

Also, please list the bad things Obama is responsible for and make also an honest list for Bush.  See which list is not only longer, the end of the page(s) rolls off your table.
 
2014-07-22 12:16:55 PM  
If campaign finance reforms were so simple to get around and so easy to subvert, then corporations and those that want to use their money to influence elections would not be fighting them tooth and nail every time they are brought up.  Reform the campaign finance system, just to piss off those who don't like it.
 
2014-07-22 12:19:31 PM  

ikanreed: Thanks for reiterating why money in politics is a bad idea.  The fact that you phrased it as a counter-argument is a bit odd, but I'll let it slide.


Money in politics  is a bad idea, but adding more politics to the equation only attracts more money. It is the direct opposite of solving the problem.
 
2014-07-22 12:19:32 PM  

Gulper Eel: vpb: Other countries seem able to do it without much trouble.

Which ones comparable to the US do - China? Russia? India? Indonesia? Brazil?

I'm sure it's wonderful that a boutique nation like Norway can pull it off, but they're the Vermont of Europe.


How interesting that you find the United States comparable to the world's developing economies.
 
2014-07-22 12:20:36 PM  

Wadded Beef: bigsteve3OOO: It is so different.  You see the republicans are bad.  The democrats are good.  If the democrats do something similar to the republicans: it is still for a good purpose.  When the republicans do the same thing it is for a bad purpose.  I hope this clears it all up for you.  Also Obama has no responsibility for anything bad; the blame belongs to Bush.

So, campaign finance reform, then? We got your support?

Also, please list the bad things Obama is responsible for and make also an honest list for Bush.  See which list is not only longer, the end of the page(s) rolls off your table.


I am for campaign reform against the republicans.
My list:
Obama------nothing
Bush---------everything.
 
2014-07-22 12:22:19 PM  

Gulper Eel: "Boutique nation" means it's about as far as possible from being a useful representative sample - for the equivalent in US states, see Vermont, Idaho, Utah, Hawaii, etc.


Basically your argument boils down to "they're not identical, so it won't work." Without enumerating any reasons why those differences will actually make a difference.

Those countries with high population densities that do this fine: Well, we don't have their high population density, silly!
Those countries with lower population densities that do this fine: Well, we don't have their low population density, silly!
etc, etc, etc...
 
2014-07-22 12:23:39 PM  
Before we do go on, Democrats do have a valid concern about money in politics.

You need to have an open discussion with them on this.

Their opinion matters same as Republicans. Their concerns need to be addressed.

Talk. Compromise. We do this instead of reaching for the gun. That is who we are.

/Stop this bullcrap of "everything Obama automatically must be attacked until it dies".
 
2014-07-22 12:23:55 PM  

Gulper Eel: vpb: It's bad either way, but it's not the Democrats who oppose campaign finance reform.

Because it's a utopian fool's errand. Separating money from politics is like trying to separate drinking from Fark.

Campaign finance reform is nothing more than the War on (Some) Money...and it's promoted by people who applaud when a central government grabs power for itself (long as it's their party's guy, anyway), who then profess to be astounded and outraged when efforts to buy a piece of that increased power intensify, and who then insist that the problem was that we didn't grant the central government enough power so we should do that and everything will be all better this time.

You solve the issue of politicians selling their power by allowing them less power to sell in the first place, not by adding layers of loophole-laden legalese that only the biggest players can navigate.


The logical conclusion of your argument becomes the only way to prevent all government corruption is to eliminate all government.  Your "War on (Some) Money" would apply to contributions to American candidates by foreign nationals, foreign corporations and even foreign governments as well, since it is somehow illicit or impractical to differentiate between sources of campaign donations or the amount of any given campaign donation.
 
2014-07-22 12:25:54 PM  

RyogaM: If campaign finance reforms were so simple to get around and so easy to subvert, then corporations and those that want to use their money to influence elections would not be fighting them tooth and nail every time they are brought up.  Reform the campaign finance system, just to piss off those who don't like it.


They're making like Br'er Rabbit - professing to be horrified at the prospect of being tossed into the briar patch, when all the while they're getting their new loopholes lined up.

And there  will be loopholes. And the usual suspects will show up again and pretend to be surprised that the laws and regulations didn't work.
 
2014-07-22 12:28:10 PM  

vpb: It's bad either way, but it's not the Democrats who oppose campaign finance reform.


Campaign finance reform is a farce, the democrats know this, that is why they want it
 
2014-07-22 12:30:00 PM  

sprawl15: A GE report on silicon carbide touts that the material "could" improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms "by more than one percent."

oh wow that's pretty weak why would they pursue this if it's the only benefit. i'd better click the link to see what's up

Merfeld and Stevanovic estimate that the chips could make trains, planes and automobiles run up to 10 percent more efficiently, reduce the energy footprint of datacenters by 5 percent, and improve the efficiency of wind and solar farms by more than 1 percent (our inforgraphic has more examples).

welp


GE obviously needs the tax money then.
 
2014-07-22 12:31:17 PM  

stan unusual: The logical conclusion of your argument becomes the only way to prevent all government corruption is to eliminate all government.  Your "War on (Some) Money" would apply to contributions to American candidates by foreign nationals, foreign corporations and even foreign governments as well, since it is somehow illicit or impractical to differentiate between sources of campaign donations or the amount of any given campaign donation.


No, yours is the obtuse conclusion.

The logical conclusion is to spread out the power wherever it's practical to do so. If a state can accomplish something better than Washington, great. If the county can do it better than the state, great. If the city can do it better than the county...and so on.

Obviously there are areas where spreading out the power won't work (national defense) but others where there are far fewer obstacles (minimum wage laws).

The Koch Bros. and GE will have to do one hell of a lot of legwork if they have to corral thousands of state legislators, mayors, county executives and town supervisors instead of just one president or senator.
 
2014-07-22 12:34:58 PM  
"Think tanks" that do the opposite of telling the truth, with local branches spreading to all 50 states, all to feed the egos and pockets of corrupt billionaires.

Gee golly Fark IndependentsTM, you're right; they're just boogeymen created by the medLOL yeah I can't get through that sentence with a straight face.
 
2014-07-22 12:35:09 PM  
Reason is what Breitbart readers think smart people sound like.
 
2014-07-22 12:36:17 PM  
Both sides are bad so vote for a ham sandwich.
 
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