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(Gawker)   Ron Paul out-Ron Paul's Ron Paul. RON PAUL   (gawker.com ) divider line
    More: Strange, Ron Paul, Ukrainian President, Eastern Ukraine, proximate cause, OSCE, President Viktor Yanukovych  
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5886 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2014 at 12:16 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-22 09:26:18 AM  
After years of espousing American isolationism and disengagement, I suppose it's good to know that Ron Paul is able to take a view on foreign policy.

I just didn't think he'd do it by defending Vladimir Putin after 289 people were shot down with his weapons.
 
2014-07-22 10:47:19 AM  
Is this an infowars thread?
 
2014-07-22 10:53:53 AM  
planes should go back to being made entirely out of gold
 
2014-07-22 12:18:51 PM  
Fark you, Ron Paul!
 
2014-07-22 12:19:46 PM  
I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.
 
2014-07-22 12:21:20 PM  

mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.


street cred.
 
2014-07-22 12:22:45 PM  

RexTalionis: After years of espousing American isolationism and disengagement, I suppose it's good to know that Ron Paul is able to take a view on foreign policy.

I just didn't think he'd do it by defending Vladimir Putin after 289 people were shot down with his weapons.


Can you explain the US foriegn policy on the Ukraine? It seems to be evolving day by day.
 
2014-07-22 12:22:57 PM  
Far be it for me to defend Ron "Nut-case" Paul, but in this case, he is indeed citing the basic facts of the case. The US and EU did support the ousting of the Ukrainian president and that ousting was technically illegal (but probably necessary). More, the Russians have not annexed the eastern Ukraine, as the FA claims, though they have indicated their intention to do so, since the area is pro-Russian.
 
2014-07-22 12:22:58 PM  
but...but...he's for legal weed*, man!

*no he isn't
 
2014-07-22 12:24:00 PM  
old man yells at cloud, story at 10
 
2014-07-22 12:24:43 PM  
The CIA did it
 
2014-07-22 12:26:15 PM  

p0nk: mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.

street cred.


Why are they denying they had anything to do with it? You want street cred, you take the credit
 
2014-07-22 12:26:24 PM  
George Bush considered provoking a war with Saddam Hussein's regime by flying a United States spyplane over Iraq bearing UN colours, enticing the Iraqis to take a shot at it, according to a leaked memo of a meeting between the US President and Tony Blair.

The two leaders were worried by the lack of hard evidence that Saddam Hussein had broken UN resolutions, though privately they were convinced that he had. According to the memorandum, Mr Bush said: "The US was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours. If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach."


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-plotted-to-lur e- saddam-into-war-with-fake-un-plane-465436.html
 
2014-07-22 12:26:39 PM  

JackieRabbit: Far be it for me to defend Ron "Nut-case" Paul, but in this case, he is indeed citing the basic facts of the case. The US and EU did support the ousting of the Ukrainian president and that ousting was technically illegal (but probably necessary). More, the Russians have not annexed the eastern Ukraine, as the FA claims, though they have indicated their intention to do so, since the area is pro-Russian.


That Paul essay was one long Louis CK "Of course... But maybe..." bit.
 
2014-07-22 12:26:48 PM  
BOB DOLE!!!
 
2014-07-22 12:27:35 PM  

borg: Is this an infowars thread?


Beat me to it!
 
2014-07-22 12:28:03 PM  

mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.



Did you see how that plane was dressed? It was asking for it.
 
2014-07-22 12:29:08 PM  

dantheman195: p0nk: mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.

street cred.

Why are they denying they had anything to do with it? You want street cred, you take the credit


Why leave a horse head in some guy's bed if you aren't going to admit you did it?
 
2014-07-22 12:29:54 PM  

dantheman195: The CIA did it


Yup, and they also changed that russian wiki page.
 
2014-07-22 12:30:06 PM  

thelibertytree.files.wordpress.com

 
2014-07-22 12:30:44 PM  

JackieRabbit: Far be it for me to defend Ron "Nut-case" Paul, but in this case, he is indeed citing the basic facts of the case. The US and EU did support the ousting of the Ukrainian president and that ousting was technically illegal (but probably necessary). More, the Russians have not annexed the eastern Ukraine, as the FA claims, though they have indicated their intention to do so, since the area is pro-Russian.


Oddly, I already had you as:
(favorite: Derper, gullible fool, idiot, or concern troll)
 
2014-07-22 12:31:01 PM  

Madaynun: dantheman195: The CIA did it

Yup, and they also changed that russian wiki page.


A girl I know who is dating this guy who knows a dude's uncle says it was the NSA getting back at Putin for not sending them a copy of his "shirtless wonders" calendar for 2014.
 
2014-07-22 12:31:22 PM  

deanis: old man yells at cloud, story at 10


That's not a cloud, that's a chemblob.
 
2014-07-22 12:33:41 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: JackieRabbit: Far be it for me to defend Ron "Nut-case" Paul, but in this case, he is indeed citing the basic facts of the case. The US and EU did support the ousting of the Ukrainian president and that ousting was technically illegal (but probably necessary). More, the Russians have not annexed the eastern Ukraine, as the FA claims, though they have indicated their intention to do so, since the area is pro-Russian.

Oddly, I already had you as:
(favorite: Derper, gullible fool, idiot, or concern troll)


I think it's a combination of all four. A piea of retardation.
 
2014-07-22 12:33:51 PM  

mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.


Nothing. They thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military jet. See USS Vincennes.
 
2014-07-22 12:33:52 PM  

SpectroBoy: mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.


Did you see how that plane was dressed? It was asking for it.



It was dressed very similiar to a Russian aircraft...


www.rantlifestyle.com
farm1.static.flickr.com
 
2014-07-22 12:35:30 PM  

SpectroBoy: Madaynun: dantheman195: The CIA did it

Yup, and they also changed that russian wiki page.

A girl I know who is dating this guy who knows a dude's uncle says it was the NSA getting back at Putin for not sending them a copy of his "shirtless wonders" calendar for 2014.


did you hear this at the 31 flavors?
 
2014-07-22 12:36:23 PM  

mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.


They likely didn't intend to shoot down a Malaysian aircraft. The Ukrainian separatists have shot down several Ukrainian military transports and helicopters in the last several months in order to deny the Ukrainian forces the ability to resupply via the air.

The most likely scenario is that they saw a radar signature of a plane and the separatists assumed that it is another Ukrainian military transport and shot it down. The missile system allegedly used to shoot down the Malaysian aircraft only has a rudimentary target acquisition radar (which gives you very limited information - speed and altitude and that's about it). It lacks a transponder reader to distinguish military and civilian aircrafts. It also isn't tied into a national air traffic control system so it doesn't know that the plane flying overhead was a civilian plane. It was only afterwards that it was revealed that it was a Malaysian civilian airliner.
 
2014-07-22 12:37:30 PM  
media0.giphy.com


Also, nice duckface from Ron in TFA
 
2014-07-22 12:39:01 PM  

LazyMedia: mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.

Nothing. They thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military jet. See USS Vincennes.


Well, if it was an accident similar to the USS Vincennes or when the Ukrainian Air Force shot down that Siberian Air flight in 2001, then they should just say "sorry" and then that's it.
 
2014-07-22 12:39:12 PM  

mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.


They had nothing to gain.  Wars are full of farkups.  There was no reason to kill Pat Tillman either.
 
2014-07-22 12:39:25 PM  

bungle_jr: SpectroBoy: Madaynun: dantheman195: The CIA did it

Yup, and they also changed that russian wiki page.

A girl I know who is dating this guy who knows a dude's uncle says it was the NSA getting back at Putin for not sending them a copy of his "shirtless wonders" calendar for 2014.

did you hear this at the 31 flavors?


No. Bobs my Uncle.
 
2014-07-22 12:39:27 PM  

RexTalionis: mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.

They likely didn't intend to shoot down a Malaysian aircraft. The Ukrainian separatists have shot down several Ukrainian military transports and helicopters in the last several months in order to deny the Ukrainian forces the ability to resupply via the air.

The most likely scenario is that they saw a radar signature of a plane and the separatists assumed that it is another Ukrainian military transport and shot it down. The missile system allegedly used to shoot down the Malaysian aircraft only has a rudimentary target acquisition radar (which gives you very limited information - speed and altitude and that's about it). It lacks a transponder reader to distinguish military and civilian aircrafts. It also isn't tied into a national air traffic control system so it doesn't know that the plane flying overhead was a civilian plane. It was only afterwards that it was revealed that it was a Malaysian civilian airliner.


THIS...and vodka...lots of vodka.

/Occam's razor
 
2014-07-22 12:40:19 PM  

mcreadyblue: Can you explain the US foriegn policy on the Ukraine? It seems to be evolving day by day.


Isolate Russians via economic sanctions so that they stop supplying Ukrainian separatists with heavy military weapons, military training, funding and "volunteers."
 
2014-07-22 12:41:52 PM  
I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft


Well shiat, if you can't figure it out then I guess there's nothing there then.
 
2014-07-22 12:45:12 PM  

HempHead: SpectroBoy: mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.


Did you see how that plane was dressed? It was asking for it.


It was dressed very similiar to a Russian aircraft...


But if you want to bring down a Russian airliner all you need to do is wait.
 
2014-07-22 12:46:33 PM  
I have a coworker who is espousing this same nonsense. I try to avoid the Ukraine debate because it feels so tinfoil-hatted and because they really seem to love Putin over "Nobama."

Anyway, we made progress on the immigration debate recentlly though. We both agreed that the US should register border crossers with work visas, carte blanche with very limited rules. Just let them through regular entry points with a finger print, picture and give them a card. Then "secure the border", even though it's a boondoggle. Then slowly reign control over immigration. I think it was a sane productive debate in an otherwise often crazy spouting of nonsense from him. "They took our jobs!!" "Illegals are the new slave class."

/sorry for the threadjack
 
2014-07-22 12:52:54 PM  

RexTalionis: mcreadyblue: Can you explain the US foriegn policy on the Ukraine? It seems to be evolving day by day.

Isolate Russians via economic sanctions so that they stop supplying Ukrainian separatists with heavy military weapons, military training, funding and "volunteers."


It's going to get cold in Europe when Putin turns off the natural gas.
 
2014-07-22 12:53:15 PM  

mcreadyblue: Can you explain the US foriegn policy on the Ukraine? It seems to be evolving day by day.


This, as opposed to the Bush administration's policy toward Iraq, which refused to evolve despite knowing that everything it was based on was a lie.
 
2014-07-22 12:53:27 PM  

HempHead: It was dressed very similiar to a Russian aircraft...


Cuz you can see the livery from 33,000 feet.
 
2014-07-22 12:54:39 PM  

mcreadyblue: LazyMedia: mcreadyblue: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft.

Nothing. They thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military jet. See USS Vincennes.

Well, if it was an accident similar to the USS Vincennes or when the Ukrainian Air Force shot down that Siberian Air flight in 2001, then they should just say "sorry" and then that's it.


Well, since we're throwing out disingenuous simple solutions, then they should have not shot down the Malaysian jet.
 
2014-07-22 12:54:56 PM  

doubled99: I still don't understand what the pro-Russian rebels and Putin had to gain by shooting down a Malaysian aircraft


Well shiat, if you can't figure it out then I guess there's nothing there then.


Nice to see some people still buy what ever the cable news presents with no questions asked.

orientalreview.org
 
2014-07-22 12:55:50 PM  

jaytkay: HempHead: It was dressed very similiar to a Russian aircraft...

Cuz you can see the livery from 33,000 feet.


You can see it from a fighter aircraft a few miles away....
 
2014-07-22 01:00:19 PM  

mcreadyblue: RexTalionis: mcreadyblue: Can you explain the US foriegn policy on the Ukraine? It seems to be evolving day by day.

Isolate Russians via economic sanctions so that they stop supplying Ukrainian separatists with heavy military weapons, military training, funding and "volunteers."

It's going to get cold in Europe when Putin turns off the natural gas.


The majority of Russia's income is from payments for natural gas purchased by European countries.

Meanwhile, Russia is the source of about 24% of the EU's natural gas supply. If you take total energy usage including other energy sources (hydro, nuclear, other fuels), then Russia is only about the source of around 16% of Europe's energy.

Tell me, who stands to lose more from this situation?

Russia will never shut down supplies to European countries - it's economic suicide.
 
2014-07-22 01:01:25 PM  
Well, if what he is saying is true; then has a point.  That's how most things are: very dependent on truth.
 
2014-07-22 01:01:49 PM  
The media has reported that the plane must have been shot down by Russian forces or Russian-backed separatists, because the missile that reportedly brought down the plane was Russian made. But they will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons.

The media reports what gets them eyeballs.

That's why "the media will not report" or "the media is not reporting this enough" actually means "why isn't everyone interested in the things I am interested in."  RON PAUL literally does not understand that his pet interests are not the pet interests of everyone else.  He doesn't get that not everyone wants to entertain his ideas.

You'll see similar things from left-wingers talking about "why doesn't the media report something something Monsanto" or from your redneck, brother-in-law, "how come the media doesn't report something something the blacks!?"
 
2014-07-22 01:04:22 PM  

packman_jon: Also, nice duckface from Ron in TFA


Came here for ITS HAPPENING!!1!, leaving satisfied
 
2014-07-22 01:15:24 PM  
RON PAUL thread! XD

i1182.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-22 01:16:26 PM  
Libertarians, when two of your most recognizable figures are:

www.nndb.com

and

ringoffireradio.com

even c2.staticflickr.com can figure out why your movement isn't gaining much traction.
 
2014-07-22 01:18:21 PM  

JackieRabbit: Far be it for me to defend Ron "Nut-case" Paul, but in this case, he is indeed citing the basic facts of the case. The US and EU did support the ousting of the Ukrainian president and that ousting was technically illegal (but probably necessary). More, the Russians have not annexed the eastern Ukraine, as the FA claims, though they have indicated their intention to do so, since the area is pro-Russian.


It looks to me that you've carefully picked very specific areas where Ron Paul was technically correct, while ignoring the many things he said which were flat-out false.

They will not report that the separatists in eastern Ukraine have inflicted considerable losses on the Ukrainian government in the week before the plane was downed.
Two falsehoods here: one, this has been reported, and two,he omitted the highly relevant information that the losses were inflicted by shooting down planes (lying by omission).

They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack.
Mr. Paul implies by omission that only the Ukraine govt has this potential motivation, not the Russian separatists. He also ignores the fact that Russia already tried to pin this on the Ukraine govt.

So, why was the Ukraine attempt more successful? Ron Paul ignores the available evidence and makes his own attempt to pin it on the Ukraine government: But they will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons.

He then disingenuously asks:
At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?
Yes, this is a question*, and yes, this is a falsehood. By implying that the only reason people aren't calling for an investigation is that they want to pin this on the Russian separatists. No sane person believes that it should be easy to start a third-party investigation in the middle of a war zone. He is either intentionally misleading his audience or flat out crazy.

*Questions can make false assertions, e.g. "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
 
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