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(Himalayan Times)   Harley-Davidson's second-quarter profit comes in short as the company is being forced to admit that they have completely saturated the market of North American dentists with Harleys and they don't know who else might buy one   (thehimalayantimes.com ) divider line
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882 clicks; posted to Business » on 22 Jul 2014 at 1:51 AM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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NFA [TotalFark]
2014-07-21 09:37:41 PM  
Currently there are about 2,700 Harley's for sale on Ebay.  There are a 197 Harley's for sale on Craigslist in my area.  This doesn't count the Harley's for sale in front yards all over the area where I live.  At one time you could buy a Harley ride it for a few years then sell if for what you paid.  Those days are long gone.  The market is saturated with used bikes and they're far more affordable than the new bikes.

Then there are new competitors coming to the market.  When Indian was bought by Polaris, Harley panicked and sold MV Agusta back to the original sellers for the same price they paid, minus all the debt.  Harley bought the company, paid off the debt and sold it back for the same price because they wanted to shed the yearly debt load to free up cash.  Harley has been positioning themselves to compete in a market with Polaris / Indian.  The new Indians are getting rave reviews and at the dealer near me, they're selling quite well.  Harley has done a few things that have alienated some of their long term customers.  Many owners are hardcore "Made in America" folks.  When Harley built a factory in Indian, it upset a lot of people.

When the 2015 Indians hit the market with the beautiful new two tone paint jobs, sales are going to pick up.
 
2014-07-21 09:46:07 PM  
Maybe they should start claiming that Obama is going to ban motorcycles.

/works for firearm manufacturers
 
2014-07-21 10:21:45 PM  
i personally know at least 30 people who own harleys.  i own two FFS.  not a single one of them was bought brand new.
 
2014-07-22 01:01:37 AM  
HD makes beautiful bikes which people will always want. And they're trying to reach new market with their v-rod and street 750. But you only have to look at Polaris' sales jump to understand that buyers want modern technology, performance, and reliability, not just a pretty show pony.
 
2014-07-22 01:10:38 AM  

NFA: Currently there are about 2,700 Harley's for sale on Ebay.  There are a 197 Harley's for sale on Craigslist in my area.  This doesn't count the Harley's for sale in front yards all over the area where I live.  At one time you could buy a Harley ride it for a few years then sell if for what you paid.  Those days are long gone.  The market is saturated with used bikes and they're far more affordable than the new bikes.

Then there are new competitors coming to the market.  When Indian was bought by Polaris, Harley panicked and sold MV Agusta back to the original sellers for the same price they paid, minus all the debt.  Harley bought the company, paid off the debt and sold it back for the same price because they wanted to shed the yearly debt load to free up cash.  Harley has been positioning themselves to compete in a market with Polaris / Indian.  The new Indians are getting rave reviews and at the dealer near me, they're selling quite well.  Harley has done a few things that have alienated some of their long term customers.  Many owners are hardcore "Made in America" folks.  When Harley built a factory in Indian, it upset a lot of people.

When the 2015 Indians hit the market with the beautiful new two tone paint jobs, sales are going to pick up.


Indians are ugly, overpriced, and have no resale value. If you hate Harleys so much, try looking at the BMWs.
 
2014-07-22 02:27:23 AM  
My wife's father worked for Harley for something like 40 years. Guy's got half a dozen bikes in his garage. When my wife was in Kindergarten, he would roll up in front of the school with her in her custom Jem-painted helmet and tiny little leather jacket, cause she was super cool. Parents complained it was a distraction. He told them to go fark themselves, as he had been on bikes since he was a kid, and also fark off. Dude is the best, most competent driver I've ever known.

Anyway, he rode the Livewire bike recently. He enjoyed the ride, but didn't love the sound.
 
2014-07-22 02:44:52 AM  
img.thesun.co.uk

You can have this bike for $1. Any takers?

/Disclaimer: This guy may or may not be included in the sale.
 
2014-07-22 03:53:18 AM  
They've really tried like mad to get more money lately. In the sausage/hotdog area of Walmart one day I happened across these (I shiat you not):

i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-07-22 04:26:26 AM  
There are so many for sale on eBay because the dentist owners keep hilariously getting wolfed down by over-sized fauna
 
2014-07-22 05:15:34 AM  
As a dentist, I find this headline offensive, and very true. Dentistry is not a cool profession. The Harley will not help shake the nerdy image though.
 
2014-07-22 05:26:24 AM  
Himalayan Times???

Really?
 
2014-07-22 05:27:12 AM  
Hmmm... buy a Harley that I'll constantly have to be tinkering with the engine because apparently that's "part of the experience", or buy a nice Japanese cruiser that I'll never have to fuss with and a new compact car for the same price.

I can't imagine why their profits are down.
 
2014-07-22 05:42:19 AM  

Notabunny: HD makes beautiful bikes which people will always want. And they're trying to reach new market with their v-rod and street 750. But you only have to look at Polaris' sales jump to understand that buyers want modern technology, performance, and reliability, not just a pretty show pony.


What modern technology are you referring to? Not trying to be insulting, just wondering. They are liquid cooled, and fuel injected, so seem modern enough to me.
 
2014-07-22 06:03:06 AM  

Iczer: They've really tried like mad to get more money lately. In the sausage/hotdog area of Walmart one day I happened across these (I shiat you not):

[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]


Harley Weiners! :)
 
2014-07-22 06:34:29 AM  

doublesecretprobation: i personally know at least 30 people who own harleys.  i own two FFS.  not a single one of them was bought brand new.


I could see a crossmarketing with those "rolling coal" morons.

Iczer: They've really tried like mad to get more money lately. In the sausage/hotdog area of Walmart one day I happened across these (I shiat you not):

[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]


Speaking of sabotaging your exhaust...
 
2014-07-22 06:38:57 AM  
The problem with Harley sales is the over saturated used market. There hasn't been a major design change since 1999 on any of their lines so buying new just doesn't make any sense when you can buy a low mileage used bike for half price.

Indian recently paid me $100 to test ride one of their new bikes. It was a fine machine, but at a price that equals Harley, no third party aftermarket support and no dealer network it's a tough sell. When I ride my bike cross country I know that I can get service in any town larger than 5000 people and thousands of aftermarket choices for it.

With that said, when sales don't go well for Indian next year and they offer full retail trade in, 5 year warranty, 0% interest and discounts on this years unsold inventory I'll trade in my street glide.
 
2014-07-22 07:09:08 AM  
Harley Davidson: You can buy better, but you can't spend more.
 
2014-07-22 07:12:55 AM  
www.apriliaforum.com
 
2014-07-22 07:32:32 AM  

DubyaHater: As a dentist, I find this headline offensive


Subby is an anti-dentite!
 
2014-07-22 07:51:18 AM  

PiperArrow: DubyaHater: As a dentist, I find this headline offensive

Subby is an anti-dentite!


And don't get him started on the blacks and the Jews.
 
2014-07-22 07:51:32 AM  
Every Harley owner I know is a retired police officer.  You would think after seeing a large number of vehicular accidents, you wouldn't want to ride a motorcycle.  Then again Harley buyers are at the age where senility is setting in.
 
2014-07-22 07:53:30 AM  
20K for a motorcycle? FTS.
 
2014-07-22 08:12:20 AM  
Back in the day, a lot of the Harley riders I knew also drove Saturns.

Misplaced loyalty personified.
 
2014-07-22 08:23:34 AM  
Knowing a few dentists, I really chuckled at your headline, subbs.

/throw in a few gold chains and corvettes, and you nail it
 
2014-07-22 08:32:15 AM  
Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?
 
2014-07-22 08:35:07 AM  

AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?


Tricycles are for really, really young kids or really, really old invalids.
 
2014-07-22 08:39:26 AM  
Not me.  If I replace my current bike (2006 Honda VTX 1300 R), I'll get another Honda.  Probably a VTX 1800 this time.
 
2014-07-22 08:46:53 AM  

Lars The Canadian Viking


Notabunny: HD makes beautiful bikes which people will always want. And they're trying to reach new market with their v-rod and street 750. But you only have to look at Polaris' sales jump to understand that buyers want modern technology, performance, and reliability, not just a pretty show pony.

What modern technology are you referring to? Not trying to be insulting, just wondering. They are liquid cooled, and fuel injected, so seem modern enough to me.


Overhead cams would probably be a good start. It looks like their current models still have pushrods.
 
hej
2014-07-22 09:05:49 AM  

AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?


Why are they any worse than the tools who ride on two wheeled motorcycles?
 
2014-07-22 09:24:17 AM  

hej: AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?

Why are they any worse than the tools who ride on two wheeled motorcycles?


It is possible to look cool on a 2-wheel motorcycle. Few people actually do -- but it is possible.

But it is 100% impossible to look cool on a motorized tricycle. They are basically hoverounds with gas engines.
 
2014-07-22 09:43:35 AM  

Ghastly: Hmmm... buy a Harley that I'll constantly have to be tinkering with the engine because apparently that's "part of the experience", or buy a nice Japanese cruiser that I'll never have to fuss with and a new compact car for the same price.

I can't imagine why their profits are down.


I have two Harleys and haven't had any trouble with them. I ride one of them almost every day.

What is this tinkering you speak of?

/04 Road Glide and 03 XL1200
 
2014-07-22 09:45:49 AM  

doglover: [img.thesun.co.uk image 265x349]

You can have this bike for $1. Any takers?

/Disclaimer: This guy may or may not be included in the sale.


i1.ytimg.com

"Burn that seat!"
 
2014-07-22 10:01:56 AM  

dr_blasto: AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?

Tricycles are for really, really young kids or really, really old invalids.


The standard trikes are abominations.  Old folks who have trouble leaning their bikes without dropping them seem to be the primary market.  The problem is, without the ability to counter-steer, they are a biatch to turn on mountain roads.  People who buy trikes end up spending their time on freeways.  Weee!

The 2-wheel-in-the-front bikes at least allow leaning.  When I'm old and feeble, that's where I'm going!
 
2014-07-22 10:04:46 AM  

KidneyStone: Ghastly: Hmmm... buy a Harley that I'll constantly have to be tinkering with the engine because apparently that's "part of the experience", or buy a nice Japanese cruiser that I'll never have to fuss with and a new compact car for the same price.

I can't imagine why their profits are down.

I have two Harleys and haven't had any trouble with them. I ride one of them almost every day.

What is this tinkering you speak of?

/04 Road Glide and 03 XL1200


Just took my wife's '01 Softtail in for service.  With 88,000 miles on it, they figured it was time to replace the belt.  It could probably have lasted another 10,000 miles, but we're about to take a 5,000 mile trip, so we thought it best to replace.

/ How many miles do the metric cruisers get on a chain?  Talk about old technology.
 
2014-07-22 10:08:56 AM  

NFA: Currently there are about 2,700 Harley's for sale on Ebay.  There are a 197 Harley's for sale on Craigslist in my area.  This doesn't count the Harley's for sale in front yards all over the area where I live.  At one time you could buy a Harley ride it for a few years then sell if for what you paid.  Those days are long gone.  The market is saturated with used bikes and they're far more affordable than the new bikes.
....
When the 2015 Indians hit the market with the beautiful new two tone paint jobs, sales are going to pick up.


This is like the 4th time "Indian" has started back up again.  Never with an original idea.  They basically make an after-market Harley with third party parts, slap some old styled sheet metal on it, and throw in a crappy springer front-end for good measure.

We've been down this road before, and they never made it anywhere.  Hell, Terminator rode one on the big screen, and it still didn't move enough product to keep the company afloat.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the newer Indians, I'm just saying that Harley isn't probably all that worried about the competition.
 
2014-07-22 10:09:55 AM  

JamesSirBensonMum


Just took my wife's '01 Softtail in for service. With 88,000 miles on it, they figured it was time to replace the belt. It could probably have lasted another 10,000 miles, but we're about to take a 5,000 mile trip, so we thought it best to replace.

/ How many miles do the metric cruisers get on a chain? Talk about old technology.


Let's be honest: belts and chains are both very old technology. The earliest H-Ds used leather belts, then they switched to chains, and then they switched to the rubber belts they use now.
 
2014-07-22 10:19:03 AM  

JamesSirBensonMum: dr_blasto: AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?

Tricycles are for really, really young kids or really, really old invalids.

The standard trikes are abominations.  Old folks who have trouble leaning their bikes without dropping them seem to be the primary market.  The problem is, without the ability to counter-steer, they are a biatch to turn on mountain roads.  People who buy trikes end up spending their time on freeways.  Weee!

The 2-wheel-in-the-front bikes at least allow leaning.  When I'm old and feeble, that's where I'm going!


They make leaning systems for rear wheel trikes, and if they made one with that and a 4cyl diesel engine I'd want one.  My problem with motorcycles is no room for storage, no room for decent music systems, and no pulling power -- yes, I know they're not designed for that, but I'm a practical person and I like my vehicles to be able to do more than go from A to B with decent gas mileage.  A front heavy, small engine diesel trike would be pretty sweet, maybe even give it a smaller truck bed so I can haul some tools or camping gear.  A working man's trike, that's the trike I want.
 
2014-07-22 10:23:38 AM  

skeevy420: JamesSirBensonMum: dr_blasto: AspectRatio: W...

The 2-wheel-in-the-front bikes at least allow leaning.  When I'm old and feeble, that's where I'm going!

They make leaning systems for rear wheel trikes, and if they made one with that and a 4cyl diesel engine I'd want one.  My problem with motorcycles is no room for storage, no room for decent music systems, and no pulling power -- yes, I know they're not designed for that, but I'm a practical person and I like my vehicles to be able to do more than go from A to B with decent gas mileage.  A front heavy, small engine diesel trike would be pretty sweet, maybe even give it a smaller truck bed so I can haul some tools or camping gear.  A working man's trike, that's the trike I want.


www.ebbro.com
 
2014-07-22 10:31:26 AM  

JamesSirBensonMum: dr_blasto: AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?

Tricycles are for really, really young kids or really, really old invalids.

The standard trikes are abominations.  Old folks who have trouble leaning their bikes without dropping them seem to be the primary market.  The problem is, without the ability to counter-steer, they are a biatch to turn on mountain roads.  People who buy trikes end up spending their time on freeways.  Weee!

The 2-wheel-in-the-front bikes at least allow leaning.  When I'm old and feeble, that's where I'm going!


These are quite popular around here:

www.motorevue.com

Particularly with commuters, because that third wheel gives you a lot more stability in the rain, and the scooter body lets you wear a weather apron.  I work with a guy who rides one of those year-round, even in the winter when it's 40° and raining five days a week.
 
2014-07-22 10:33:10 AM  
The Harley bikes don't bother me as much as the enforced lifestyle -- black leather everything, useless beanie helmet, idling for twenty minutes ...

And they are hands-down the unfriendliest riders in the road. Sorry I ride a non-Harley, dude, but I don't give the finger to people who aren't riding models by the same manufacturer as what I'm riding. What is your damage? No rider except for Harley riders ever flipped me off. Harley riders did constantly. And these are people I had never met, I had no chance to do anything to upset them in the few second it took to appear and pass them going the other way on a 2 lane road.
 
2014-07-22 10:41:55 AM  
I bought my first Harley, a 1971 FLH, in 1977 and I still have it. I bought a new FLHRI in 2004. I have no need to ever buy a new one and neither do most of my friends. At all the bike shows, parties and other gatherings, just about all the Harley riders are in their late 40's and older. All the younger riders are are different brands. There isn't going to be very many new buyers of Harleys once the older riders quit riding. Harley sales will definitely plummet.
 
2014-07-22 10:48:08 AM  

Robo Beat: JamesSirBensonMum: dr_blasto: AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?

Tricycles are for really, really young kids or really, really old invalids.

The standard trikes are abominations.  Old folks who have trouble leaning their bikes without dropping them seem to be the primary market.  The problem is, without the ability to counter-steer, they are a biatch to turn on mountain roads.  People who buy trikes end up spending their time on freeways.  Weee!

The 2-wheel-in-the-front bikes at least allow leaning.  When I'm old and feeble, that's where I'm going!

These are quite popular around here:

[www.motorevue.com image 460x318]

Particularly with commuters, because that third wheel gives you a lot more stability in the rain, and the scooter body lets you wear a weather apron.  I work with a guy who rides one of those year-round, even in the winter when it's 40° and raining five days a week.


Except he's probably talking about the Can-Am spyder, which does NOT lean. The Piaggio 3's are rare in the States. Also, it's a scooter, which only Audrey Hepburn can look good on.
 
2014-07-22 10:51:59 AM  

wiseolddude: I bought my first Harley, a 1971 FLH, in 1977 and I still have it. I bought a new FLHRI in 2004. I have no need to ever buy a new one and neither do most of my friends. At all the bike shows, parties and other gatherings, just about all the Harley riders are in their late 40's and older. All the younger riders are are different brands. There isn't going to be very many new buyers of Harleys once the older riders quit riding. Harley sales will definitely plummet.


A '77? Not in any hurry I assume.

Big twins are still too expensive. Kids can get Sporties, and the new 750 and 500 may bring soem new blood in. In general, not many under 30 are dropping $16+ grand on a bike.
 
2014-07-22 10:54:39 AM  

JamesSirBensonMum: KidneyStone: Ghastly: Hmmm... buy a Harley that I'll constantly have to be tinkering with the engine because apparently that's "part of the experience", or buy a nice Japanese cruiser that I'll never have to fuss with and a new compact car for the same price.

I can't imagine why their profits are down.

I have two Harleys and haven't had any trouble with them. I ride one of them almost every day.

What is this tinkering you speak of?

/04 Road Glide and 03 XL1200

Just took my wife's '01 Softtail in for service.  With 88,000 miles on it, they figured it was time to replace the belt.  It could probably have lasted another 10,000 miles, but we're about to take a 5,000 mile trip, so we thought it best to replace.

/ How many miles do the metric cruisers get on a chain?  Talk about old technology.


How many metric cruisers have chains anymore rather than belt of shaft drive? I fear you are a few years behind.
 
2014-07-22 10:57:11 AM  

JamesSirBensonMum: NFA: Currently there are about 2,700 Harley's for sale on Ebay.  There are a 197 Harley's for sale on Craigslist in my area.  This doesn't count the Harley's for sale in front yards all over the area where I live.  At one time you could buy a Harley ride it for a few years then sell if for what you paid.  Those days are long gone.  The market is saturated with used bikes and they're far more affordable than the new bikes.
....
When the 2015 Indians hit the market with the beautiful new two tone paint jobs, sales are going to pick up.

This is like the 4th time "Indian" has started back up again.  Never with an original idea.  They basically make an after-market Harley with third party parts, slap some old styled sheet metal on it, and throw in a crappy springer front-end for good measure.

We've been down this road before, and they never made it anywhere.  Hell, Terminator rode one on the big screen, and it still didn't move enough product to keep the company afloat.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the newer Indians, I'm just saying that Harley isn't probably all that worried about the competition.


The Terminator in T2 road a Harley Fat Boy.
 
2014-07-22 11:00:02 AM  

skeevy420: They make leaning systems for rear wheel trikes,


Where? Except for the Honda Gyro Scooter, I have never seen a trike with two rears that leaned.
 
2014-07-22 11:00:29 AM  

AspectRatio: hej: AspectRatio: Worse are the tools who ride on those 3 wheel motorcycles. I don't care who you are, if you ride one of those you look like a tool. Especially the ones with 2 wheels in front and 1 in back. What are these guys thinking?

Why are they any worse than the tools who ride on two wheeled motorcycles?

It is possible to look cool on a 2-wheel motorcycle. Few people actually do -- but it is possible.

But it is 100% impossible to look cool on a motorized tricycle. They are basically hoverounds with gas engines.


You sound jealous.
 
2014-07-22 11:00:50 AM  
or shaft drive. or.
 
2014-07-22 11:10:06 AM  
Harley's problem: everyone who can afford to buy one already has one, and there are not a lot of younger people who can drop $20K on a bike. They'll be the next casualty of our trickle-on economy.
 
2014-07-22 11:15:34 AM  

wiseolddude: I bought my first Harley, a 1971 FLH, in 1977 and I still have it. I bought a new FLHRI in 2004. I have no need to ever buy a new one and neither do most of my friends. At all the bike shows, parties and other gatherings, just about all the Harley riders are in their late 40's and older. All the younger riders are are different brands. There isn't going to be very many new buyers of Harleys once the older riders quit riding. Harley sales will definitely plummet.


I think the real problem with the H-D organization is that their identity is so wrapped up in a particular kind of bike and a particular image and lifestyle for its riders, that they're not really willing to, or even capable of, making a bike that steps outside those boundaries.  Look what they did to Buell, or how they developed the XR1200 and then promptly buried it.  I wanted to test drive one of those back in 2011, yet none of the four dealerships I visited had a single one I could try.  Plenty of Softtails and Road Kings, though.

Young riders these days on the whole are not particularly enamored with the Harley image - they were born after motorcycling's big pop-culture moment in the sun in the '50s and '60s and Evel Knievel's stunts in the '70s, so for many of them their primary exposure to that culture was in the form of seeing tattooed gray-beards and their leather-faced women riding from bar to bar in whatever suburb they grew up in.  But that's H-D's market, these days, and I believe they're going to have to make some drastic changes to their whole corporate mentality if they want to stay in business.

/the accessorization and merchandise are both pretty ludicrous, too
 
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