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(CNN)   Russian army hands over fake black boxes from MH17. I mean, look at them, they're clearly orange not black   (cnn.com) divider line 174
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8079 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2014 at 3:19 AM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-22 12:51:55 AM  
myinnerchick.com
 
2014-07-22 03:23:32 AM  
"This is an information war," he said. "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."

Wait, did he just admit not being Ukrainian?


I don't see any differences" between 9/11, the Lockerbie bombing and the attack on Flight 17, Poroshenko said

Oh you probably should not have said that. Fox will be endlessly shrieking and rending garments over that quote.
 
2014-07-22 03:31:30 AM  

fusillade762: "This is an information war," he said. "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."

Wait, did he just admit not being Ukrainian?


I don't see any differences" between 9/11, the Lockerbie bombing and the attack on Flight 17, Poroshenko said

Oh you probably should not have said that. Fox will be endlessly shrieking and rending garments over that quote.


To be fair (and balanced), Faux News does that when certain "non-traditional" members of the population eat crackers like they own the place.
 
2014-07-22 03:44:05 AM  
"Airplanes" for $200: "And what is the Deal With the Black Box?"

"It's the only thing that survives the crash! Why don't they build the whole plane out of the Black Box!?"
 
2014-07-22 03:45:15 AM  
I never entirely understood calling the recorders black boxes to begin with.  It's an engineering term for a functional/control unit that takes an input and produces an output, with what happens between being unimportant (so that you can swap the piece out and deal with classified/trade secret stuff in the design phase).  Airplane black boxes really have nothing to do with this (and the internal mechanisms actually ARE vital to its overall design function).
 
2014-07-22 03:45:57 AM  

fusillade762: "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane."


".....anymore, because the Russians took their Buk missile launcher back over the border."
 
2014-07-22 03:52:46 AM  
Meanwhile, in other Malaysian Airlines news ...

litreactor.com
 
2014-07-22 03:52:49 AM  

fusillade762: "This is an information war," he said. "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."

Wait, did he just admit not being Ukrainian?


I don't see any differences" between 9/11, the Lockerbie bombing and the attack on Flight 17, Poroshenko said

Oh you probably should not have said that. Fox will be endlessly shrieking and rending garments over that quote.


Great observation then you went all omg Fox News is like right wing. Welcome to 1996.
 
Xai
2014-07-22 03:53:36 AM  
Article where colonel cassad of the militia admits a combat ready BUK launcher has 'appeared' - 16th July.

(Russian)
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1671547.html
  (English translation)


http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/26716.html
 
2014-07-22 03:57:38 AM  

Deathfrogg: fusillade762: "This is an information war," he said. "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."

Wait, did he just admit not being Ukrainian?



Well, he is "rebelling."  That's kind like insisting that Washington should have admitted to being British.

/Having said that, he's probably not Ukrainian at all, yeah.
 
2014-07-22 03:58:13 AM  
"kind of like" Me type English good.
 
2014-07-22 04:00:12 AM  
Hey Subby:

i.chzbgr.com
 
2014-07-22 04:04:30 AM  
The Russians had them,  can you really trust what's on them now?  Or what's not on there anymore.

Do these boxes have any kind of tamper proofing on them?
 
2014-07-22 04:04:48 AM  
I hope the FSB apparatchiks got paid overtime this past weekend.
 
2014-07-22 04:14:32 AM  

fusillade762: "This is an information war," he said. "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."

Wait, did he just admit not being Ukrainian?


I don't see any differences" between 9/11, the Lockerbie bombing and the attack on Flight 17, Poroshenko said

Oh you probably should not have said that. Fox will be endlessly shrieking and rending garments over that quote.


It's a horrible comparison.  9/11 was an order of magnitude greater than Lockerbie, but both were clearly acts of terrorism.  At this point, we can really only speculate about MH17.

My speculation is the rebels farked up and shot down what they believed was a military jet and then tried to cover it up.  Even if we can conclusively prove it was the rebels, it will be hard to prove that they knew it was a passenger jet.
 
2014-07-22 04:19:58 AM  

fusillade762: "This is an information war," he said. "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."

Wait, did he just admit not being Ukrainian?


They officially declare themselves not Ukrainians. That's their whole point. They are "Donetsk republic", "Novorossia", but not Ukraine.

As for him being from Russia, he never was hiding it. He is, was and continues to be a Russian citizen. Roughly 20% to 30% of separatists fighting are Russian citizens; volunteers, who came into Ukraine with the help of Russian nationalistic organizations; they don't hide it.
 
2014-07-22 04:23:04 AM  

eas81: Hey Subby:

[i.chzbgr.com image 500x603]


I think you'll find it's neither, it's quite obviously a joke.
 
2014-07-22 04:25:23 AM  
I think you people don't understand the situation. The leader of the DNR is not some kind of masked figure. It's a well-known Russian citizen Alexander Borodai, who never, ever tried to hide that he is a Russian citizen. He is a Russian right-wing nationalist. His biography is openly available on English Wiki.

"Hey, he admits he isn't a Ukrainian!" is not exactly a "gotcha" moment.
 
2014-07-22 04:30:15 AM  

danielscissorhands: "Airplanes" for $200: "And what is the Deal With the Black Box?"

"It's the only thing that survives the crash! Why don't they build the whole plane out of the Black Box!?"


Because it would be too heavy to fly.
 
2014-07-22 04:36:40 AM  
I've discovered the comments section of RT.com makes Fox News actually seem fair and balanced.
 
2014-07-22 04:41:14 AM  

Boo_Guy: The Russians had them,  can you really trust what's on them now?  Or what's not on there anymore.

Do these boxes have any kind of tamper proofing on them?


Yes they sealed in the encasement you have cut open the encasement to get to the recorders.

www.aerospaceweb.org
 
2014-07-22 04:59:30 AM  
Putin was on similar flight plan from Brazil.  I'd bet Ukraine took a shot at Putin before Russia would shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet.  Ukraine effed up that operation.
 
2014-07-22 05:02:43 AM  

tbeatty: Putin was on similar flight plan from Brazil.  I'd bet Ukraine took a shot at Putin before Russia would shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet.  Ukraine effed up that operation.


Is this the justification angle? Ukraine  probably, maybe,tried it first, so the Dutch and Malaysians deserved to die?
 
2014-07-22 05:06:15 AM  

theotherles: danielscissorhands: "Airplanes" for $200: "And what is the Deal With the Black Box?"

"It's the only thing that survives the crash! Why don't they build the whole plane out of the Black Box!?"

Because it would be too heavy to fly.


I see you are not familiar with rhetorical devices. ;)
 
2014-07-22 05:12:34 AM  

danielscissorhands: theotherles: danielscissorhands: "Airplanes" for $200: "And what is the Deal With the Black Box?"

"It's the only thing that survives the crash! Why don't they build the whole plane out of the Black Box!?"

Because it would be too heavy to fly.

I see you are not familiar with rhetorical devices. ;)


Or Jerry Seinfeld.
 
2014-07-22 05:16:55 AM  
They gave them to the Russians first and I bet they have the know-how to alter them.

Also, do civil aircraft have a warning when a missile system locks onto them?
 
2014-07-22 05:17:07 AM  

gfid: fusillade762: "This is an information war," he said. "We don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."

Wait, did he just admit not being Ukrainian?


I don't see any differences" between 9/11, the Lockerbie bombing and the attack on Flight 17, Poroshenko said

Oh you probably should not have said that. Fox will be endlessly shrieking and rending garments over that quote.

It's a horrible comparison.  9/11 was an order of magnitude greater than Lockerbie, but both were clearly acts of terrorism.  At this point, we can really only speculate about MH17.

My speculation is the rebels farked up and shot down what they believed was a military jet and then tried to cover it up.  Even if we can conclusively prove it was the rebels, it will be hard to prove that they knew it was a passenger jet.


I believe their SAM would've give them a firing solution indicating the target's altitude at 33,000 feet. The plane they claimed to shoot down, an Antonov An-26, has a flight ceiling of 24,000 ft. I say 1 part obvious attempt at further destabilizing the region, 2 parts vodak. Served neat.
 
2014-07-22 05:17:29 AM  

cc_rider: danielscissorhands: theotherles: danielscissorhands: "Airplanes" for $200: "And what is the Deal With the Black Box?"

"It's the only thing that survives the crash! Why don't they build the whole plane out of the Black Box!?"

Because it would be too heavy to fly.

I see you are not familiar with rhetorical devices. ;)

Or Jerry Seinfeld.


This.
 
2014-07-22 05:19:24 AM  

lucksi: They gave them to the Russians first and I bet they have the know-how to alter them.

Also, do civil aircraft have a warning when a missile system locks onto them?


Yes, the co-pilot looks out the window and screams "Is that a mi.."
 
2014-07-22 05:25:49 AM  

lucksi: They gave them to the Russians first and I bet they have the know-how to alter them.


Yeah, I don't think I could quite believe someone with a powerful subterfuge agency like Russia wouldn't have the ability to tamper with something. Admittedly I know nothing about black boxes and how supposedly tamper proof they are, but nothing is impossible.
 
2014-07-22 05:28:00 AM  

eas81: Yes they sealed in the encasement you have cut open the encasement to get to the recorders.


Not really tamper-proofing so much as crash-proofing.  Since they tend to use physical medium recording like wire-notching (depending on the device) they're something of a pain in the arse to fake in hardware terms, but if you really want to do that I guess it's not exactly rocket science to dig up the formats, buy a fresh unit, record false telemetry onto it, then swap out the serial'd parts.

Basically speaking as an engineer... no, there's nothing particularly in most black-box designs that prevents them being falsified.  Primarily because they're intended to evaluate mechanical and design failure, and no one really has any motive to fake that in the first place.  They're not intended as a tool of military or civilian enforcement intelligence.  The flight recorder has a lot of engineering value, but shouldn't have any real weight as evidence when presented in this kind of context.
 
GBB
2014-07-22 05:32:16 AM  

Boo_Guy: The Russians had them,  can you really trust what's on them now?  Or what's not on there anymore.

Do these boxes have any kind of tamper proofing on them?


i00.i.aliimg.com
 
2014-07-22 05:44:26 AM  

tbeatty: Putin was on similar flight plan from Brazil.  I'd bet Ukraine took a shot at Putin before Russia would shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet.  Ukraine effed up that operation.


Keep trying, Dmitri, you'll get those  extra  FSB potato rations yet!
 
2014-07-22 05:49:41 AM  

Boo_Guy: The Russians had them,  can you really trust what's on them now?  Or what's not on there anymore.

Do these boxes have any kind of tamper proofing on them?


Yes. ANY tampering would be obvious. That's the whole point.
 
2014-07-22 05:52:38 AM  

Slaxl: tbeatty: Putin was on similar flight plan from Brazil.  I'd bet Ukraine took a shot at Putin before Russia would shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet.  Ukraine effed up that operation.

Is this the justification angle? Ukraine  probably, maybe,tried it first, so the Dutch and Malaysians deserved to die?



Not quite justification. It was the second (IIRC) attempt at disinformation by the Russian media; that the Ukrainians had shot down MH17 because they thought it looked like Putin's plane.

They pretty much dropped it when they realised not even the Russian public are drunk enough to buy that much horseshiat.
 
2014-07-22 05:55:18 AM  

lucksi: Also, do civil aircraft have a warning when a missile system locks onto them?


No.
 
2014-07-22 05:59:38 AM  

tbeatty: Putin was on similar flight plan from Brazil.  I'd bet Ukraine took a shot at Putin before Russia would shoot down a plane at 33,000 feet.  Ukraine effed up that operation.


You believe blatant Russian propaganda? Do you also watch FOX News and believe that?

/Call it a hunch.

On topic?

Will the black boxes give investigators the clues they need?

Couple paragraphs later...

"The black boxes aren't going to solve" the issue of who downed the Malaysian airliner, a U.S. intelligence official told CNN's Evan Perez.

So that's a no then?

Pretty sure that's what Putin is counting on.
 
2014-07-22 06:02:41 AM  
The black box won't reveal anything anyway; it'd basically just confirm what we already know. It'll show the flight path up until the point of missile impact, show some of the damage involved during crash sequence and pretty much nothing else.
 
2014-07-22 06:05:45 AM  

FuzedBox: The black box won't reveal anything anyway; it'd basically just confirm what we already know. It'll show the flight path up until the point of missile impact, show some of the damage involved during crash sequence and pretty much nothing else.


However it will determine the difference between an SA-11 (SAM) and an AA-8 (AA) which will surprise nobody except RT readers.
 
2014-07-22 06:06:14 AM  
Why would anyone want to tamper with the black boxes? There's nothing that could be altered to lessen the culpability of those involved. We know the flight path it took, altitude, how it was brought down, and by whom.
 
2014-07-22 06:08:10 AM  
I have a sample of what they pulled off the boxes...

recording from the cockpit recorder

Pilot: Hey!  Isn't that Air Force One?
Co-Pilot:  Oh my god, it is!
Pilot: Wait!  Look!  One of the doors is opening!!!!
Someone is standing in the doorway, how can they breath up this high!
Co-Pilot:  Well, he's black, black people make good athletes and slaves so they can probably breath this high up.
Pilot:  Oh my god, it is the President of the United States.  He's using a signal lamp!  He's signaling that someone on board knows about Benghazi and has his birth certificate so we all have to die now because we know the truth that he's a Kenyan Muslim Overlord out to destroy every Good fearing American.
Co-Pilot: Oh my god!  The Prime Minister of Ukrain is standing by him and just handed him a Stinger Launcher.
Both pilot and Co-Pilot: Oh my god, the Ukrain Prime Minister and President Obama fired a Stinger missile at us killing us all.  It was definitely not the Russians!!!!!
 
2014-07-22 06:11:09 AM  

Kerr Avon: FuzedBox: The black box won't reveal anything anyway; it'd basically just confirm what we already know. It'll show the flight path up until the point of missile impact, show some of the damage involved during crash sequence and pretty much nothing else.

However it will determine the difference between an SA-11 (SAM) and an AA-8 (AA) which will surprise nobody except RT readers.


True, but what would it matter if the missile struck a direct hit to an engine vs the fuselage? What would that tell us aside from the missile platform being different?
 
2014-07-22 06:20:08 AM  

FuzedBox: Kerr Avon: FuzedBox: The black box won't reveal anything anyway; it'd basically just confirm what we already know. It'll show the flight path up until the point of missile impact, show some of the damage involved during crash sequence and pretty much nothing else.

However it will determine the difference between an SA-11 (SAM) and an AA-8 (AA) which will surprise nobody except RT readers.

True, but what would it matter if the missile struck a direct hit to an engine vs the fuselage? What would that tell us aside from the missile platform being different?


The recorded system failure scale and timing pattern will be very different for a 70Kg warhead than a 3Kg one.
 
2014-07-22 06:30:45 AM  
It's unlikely that it was an AA missile. I just can't imagine the Russian military being that stupid.
 
2014-07-22 06:33:23 AM  

FuzedBox: Kerr Avon: FuzedBox: The black box won't reveal anything anyway; it'd basically just confirm what we already know. It'll show the flight path up until the point of missile impact, show some of the damage involved during crash sequence and pretty much nothing else.

However it will determine the difference between an SA-11 (SAM) and an AA-8 (AA) which will surprise nobody except RT readers.

True, but what would it matter if the missile struck a direct hit to an engine vs the fuselage? What would that tell us aside from the missile platform being different?


The wreckage itself could show what kind of missile was used. The SA-11s wouldn't directly hit the plane at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage- of fers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1
 
2014-07-22 06:40:20 AM  

cc_rider: FuzedBox: Kerr Avon: FuzedBox: The black box won't reveal anything anyway; it'd basically just confirm what we already know. It'll show the flight path up until the point of missile impact, show some of the damage involved during crash sequence and pretty much nothing else.

However it will determine the difference between an SA-11 (SAM) and an AA-8 (AA) which will surprise nobody except RT readers.

True, but what would it matter if the missile struck a direct hit to an engine vs the fuselage? What would that tell us aside from the missile platform being different?

The wreckage itself could show what kind of missile was used. The SA-11s wouldn't directly hit the plane at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage- of fers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html?smid=fb-share&_r=1


It would home in on an engine. An air-to-air missile could hit anywhere, but more likely along the inner wing or fuselage. All that this will tell us is whether or not another aircraft was involved, which I highly doubt. No witnesses viewed other aircraft at the time, and the missile trail appears to be surface launched.
 
2014-07-22 06:40:48 AM  

FuzedBox: It's unlikely that it was an AA missile. I just can't imagine the Russian military being that stupid.


One of the early (maskirovka) statements was that it was a Ukranian SU-25 that shot it down, which it actually can't outside of the realms of a Hollywood film script.
 
2014-07-22 06:41:59 AM  

Grahor: They officially declare themselves not Ukrainians. That's their whole point. They are "Donetsk republic", "Novorossia", but not Ukraine.


Grahor: I think you people don't understand the situation. The leader of the DNR is not some kind of masked figure. It's a well-known Russian citizen Alexander Borodai, who never, ever tried to hide that he is a Russian citizen. He is a Russian right-wing nationalist. His biography is openly available on English Wiki.

"Hey, he admits he isn't a Ukrainian!" is not exactly a "gotcha" moment.

As for him being from Russia, he never was hiding it. He is, was and continues to be a Russian citizen. Roughly 20% to 30% of separatists fighting are Russian citizens; volunteers, who came into Ukraine with the help of Russian nationalistic organizations; they don't hide it


All right, let's rephrase it for you.  Take Putin's cock out of your mouth for one thread if you have to, it might get in the way of you seeing the screen.

They weren't born in the "Republic."  They don't even live there.  The "rebels" are Russians born on Russian soil, recruited to fight in Ukraine.  They have no ties to the region except for Putin's nationalistic ambitions.

Also:  But but, you've ASSURED US on multiple threads that EVERY single rebel was a Ukrainian citizen rising up against the oppressive Nazis who control western Ukraine.  I'm shocked, SHOCKED.
 
2014-07-22 06:54:19 AM  
Everyone in the world who gets the news knows exactly what happened. Why bother?
 
2014-07-22 06:58:09 AM  

Suflig: Everyone in the world who gets the news knows exactly what happened. Why bother?


That's basically what I was trying to say. Whether or not Russia was directly involved doesn't matter. No one is going to do anything other than impose meaningless sanctions upon them if they were.
 
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