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(Guardian)   Once again, John Kerry gets caught speaking honestly   (theguardian.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass  
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5814 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Jul 2014 at 11:07 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-20 07:47:11 PM  
And all civilian casualties are not intended by us but actually intended by Hamas who want to pile up as many civilian dead as they can because somebody said they use telegenically dead Palestinians for the cause

Who said that?
 
2014-07-20 07:49:18 PM  
"What choice do we have?" Netanyahu said. "We have to protect ourselves. We try to target the rocketeers, we do. And all civilian casualties are not intended by us but actually intended by Hamas who want to pile up as many civilian dead as they can because somebody said they use telegenically dead Palestinians for the cause. They want the more dead the better."

upload.wikimedia.org

R.I.P. Rocketeer

 
2014-07-20 08:05:17 PM  

fusillade762: Who said that?


i.imgur.com

Its in Bibi's interest to perpetuate some sort of clearly defined fiction between "civilians" and "army," instead of the messy reality of popular militias and civilian 'freedom fighters' or 'resistance fighters' as they tend to be called in other times and places depending on who is framing the narrative.
 
2014-07-20 08:50:36 PM  
The man knows when he is "hot-miked." This was a message.
 
2014-07-20 09:09:22 PM  
"Shalicar, a spokesman for the Israeli military, told the Guardian that Shujai'iya was a "frontline base" for Hamas fighters: "140 rockets have been launched from there in the last week and a half alone. And [there are] not only rockets but tunnels. "

I am confused.
This is a suburb or this is a military base.
Which is it?

either it is a military target or it isnt.


"We asked the population to evacuate to other neighbourhoods. If we were not bothered about civilians we would have just bombed from the air rather than sending in tanks and soldiers, dozens of whom have been wounded."

But HAMAS, told them to stay, because human shields are martyrs that go straight to Hell or Heaven or Satan or God (same thing). So they stayed, AND THEN they COMPLAINED?!! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


"As the regular thud of explosions resumed, three Palestinian fighters - carrying AK-47s, and with their faces wrapped in scarves - jogged along the street. Other militants were seen sheltering in the buildings.  "

Ah so the ARMY is hiding in civilian buildings, turning them into military targets.
Check and Mate.
Lock your doors, force your heroic soldiers into the street.
OR, you dont get to complain.

/it must really suck to be in a war zone and think it should be safe for you.
 
2014-07-20 09:10:41 PM  

Somacandra: fusillade762: Who said that?

[i.imgur.com image 467x321]

Its in Bibi's interest to perpetuate some sort of clearly defined fiction between "civilians" and "army," instead of the messy reality of popular militias and civilian 'freedom fighters' or 'resistance fighters' as they tend to be called in other times and places depending on who is framing the narrative.


US was founded by terrorists ....
 
2014-07-20 09:13:44 PM  

namatad: Somacandra: fusillade762: Who said that?

[i.imgur.com image 467x321]

Its in Bibi's interest to perpetuate some sort of clearly defined fiction between "civilians" and "army," instead of the messy reality of popular militias and civilian 'freedom fighters' or 'resistance fighters' as they tend to be called in other times and places depending on who is framing the narrative.

US was founded by terrorists ....


So was the state of Israel.
 
2014-07-20 09:16:34 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: namatad: Somacandra: fusillade762: Who said that?

[i.imgur.com image 467x321]

Its in Bibi's interest to perpetuate some sort of clearly defined fiction between "civilians" and "army," instead of the messy reality of popular militias and civilian 'freedom fighters' or 'resistance fighters' as they tend to be called in other times and places depending on who is framing the narrative.

US was founded by terrorists ....

So was the state of Israel.


So was every country in the world.
Seriously, not a single country exists what wasnt conqueror at one point or another.
That's why the game of WHO owned what, last is so silly.
Sucks to be the people who lost, but until we have a world government, that's how the game is played.
 
2014-07-20 09:23:01 PM  

namatad: So was every country in the world.
Seriously, not a single country exists what wasnt conqueror at one point or another.


Nice post. In the fine modern tradition of calling every farking thing "terrorism".
 
2014-07-20 09:29:53 PM  
Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.
 
2014-07-20 09:31:44 PM  

namatad: either it is a military target or it isnt.


cdn.chud.com
 
2014-07-20 09:38:34 PM  

Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.


Nevertheless, it is a hard fact that U.S. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties, a risk that exists in every war.  And for the families of those civilians, no words or legal construct can justify their loss.  For me, and those in my chain of command, those deaths will haunt us as long as we live, just as we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

-President Barack Obama 5/24/13
 
2014-07-20 09:44:49 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.

Nevertheless, it is a hard fact that U.S. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties, a risk that exists in every war.  And for the families of those civilians, no words or legal construct can justify their loss.  For me, and those in my chain of command, those deaths will haunt us as long as we live, just as we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

-President Barack Obama 5/24/13


I'm sure he sounded very sincere when he said it, too.
 
2014-07-20 09:50:16 PM  

Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.


I honestly don't know the answer to this, but are there as many civilian casualties with drone strikes and with targeted bomb strikes of the sort Israel is using?
 
2014-07-20 09:51:07 PM  

DeaH: Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.

I honestly don't know the answer to this, but are there as many civilian casualties with drone strikes as with targeted bomb strikes of the sort Israel is using?


FTFM
 
2014-07-20 10:00:39 PM  

namatad: US was founded by terrorists ....


That was precisely my point. By Bibi's standard early rebellious new world colonials probably would be. The whole idea of a popular militia bisects the military/civilian distinction. The Israeli government has the colonial privilege of two different categories of people. Colonized Palestinians do not--they can't even maintain sewage treatment centers because they keep getting destroyed by fighting so they pump raw sewage into the ocean. Colonized peoples are always military/economic targets. They don't have the luxury of being simple "non-combatants." So you're just flat our wrong---its not either "military" or its not. Perhaps a retraction is in order?
 
2014-07-20 10:06:07 PM  

Somacandra: namatad: US was founded by terrorists ....

That was precisely my point. By Bibi's standard early rebellious new world colonials probably would be. The whole idea of a popular militia bisects the military/civilian distinction. The Israeli government has the colonial privilege of two different categories of people. Colonized Palestinians do not--they can't even maintain sewage treatment centers because they keep getting destroyed by fighting so they pump raw sewage into the ocean. Colonized peoples are always military/economic targets. They don't have the luxury of being simple "non-combatants." So you're just flat our wrong---its not either "military" or its not. Perhaps a retraction is in order?


Based on what I've learned in other threads, they're either military targets or you're an anti-semite.
 
2014-07-20 10:13:38 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.


Good point. But you won't find any American Administration apologizing for doing things like  destroying sewage treatment in Iraq in either Gulf War 1 or 2 (PDF)--effectively turning human excrement into biological warfare toward the local population, just as you won't find President Obama condemning the inhuman economic blockade that essentially bans international capitalism from accessing the Gaza market.
 
2014-07-20 10:17:52 PM  

doyner: Based on what I've learned in other threads, they're either military targets or you're an anti-semite.


There are good ways to avoid anti-Semitism when criticizing Israel--usually being as very specific in one's criticism as possible. That's just common sense anyway. By the same token, there are good ways to avoid being racist in the other direction as well.

/yeah, welcome to fark, I know
 
2014-07-20 10:18:01 PM  

Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.

Nevertheless, it is a hard fact that U.S. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties, a risk that exists in every war.  And for the families of those civilians, no words or legal construct can justify their loss.  For me, and those in my chain of command, those deaths will haunt us as long as we live, just as we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

-President Barack Obama 5/24/13

I'm sure he sounded very sincere when he said it, too.


Well at least he said it and at least gave the appearance of self awareness instead of showing up in a flight suit like Bill Paxton Pullman in Independence Day.
 
2014-07-20 10:20:50 PM  

Somacandra: There are good ways to avoid anti-Semitism when criticizing Israel--usually being as very specific in one's criticism as possible


There's just one. Avoid even trying to discuss the Mid East with someone who's going to scream "anti-Semite" at the drop of a Yarmulke.
 
2014-07-20 10:38:18 PM  
img.fark.net

Good times.
 
2014-07-20 10:49:49 PM  
"It's a hell of a pinpoint operation, it's a hell of a pinpoint operation,"

Kerry's frustrated with the ongoing mini war in Israel/Palestine? Well, no shiat.

If someone gave me the task of trying to sit Israel and Palestine down and make nice my first reaction would be "Why do you hate me so much?"

It's a thankless task with little hope of success and I wish Kerry well in this regard even if I'm not holding my breath looking for immediate or lasting results.

Must be nice to be a simpleminded RWer on this issue because their understanding of events in this area rarely gets beyond "Israel =Good/Palestinians = Bad".

Without the troubles going on in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and elsewhere there would be more international pressure on both sides to stop but as it is this may go on a while.

I honestly believe that America's so far largely unqualified support of Israel at the UN does a great disservice to the peoples of Israel, the US and Palestine.

End of the day Israel's continued ill treatment of the Palestinians and their refusal to seriously pursue a two state solution in an occupation that's gone on for longer than most people in that area have been alive is a greater threat to their continued existence as a nation than any bottle rocket campaign the Pals have ever mounted or could.
 
2014-07-20 10:56:48 PM  

Mugato: Avoid even trying to discuss the Mid East with someone who's going to scream "anti-Semite" at the drop of a Yarmulke.


Which is a bad idea in the long run--scratch an apparent Philo-Semite like that and you'll often find an Anti-Semite underneath. Such people should be exposed and held accountable in public discourse for scapegoating "Jews" in any collective sense. Or some people claiming to be more Jewish than Jewish persons 'think they are.'
 
2014-07-20 11:18:43 PM  

Somacandra: Mugato: Avoid even trying to discuss the Mid East with someone who's going to scream "anti-Semite" at the drop of a Yarmulke.

Which is a bad idea in the long run--scratch an apparent Philo-Semite like that and you'll often find an Anti-Semite underneath. Such people should be exposed and held accountable in public discourse for scapegoating "Jews" in any collective sense. Or some people claiming to be more Jewish than Jewish persons 'think they are.'


That moron is the epitome of talking hairdo.
 
2014-07-20 11:19:28 PM  
Romantic nationalism imagines a "people" as eternal and as having an eternal connection with a specific piece of land. This way of thinking is fantastic and mythological. Peoples are formed and change and sometimes cease to be, though they might have descendants who abandoned that religion or ethnicity or language. Human beings have moved all around and are not directly tied to any territory in an exclusive way, since many groups have lived on most pieces of land. Jerusalem was not founded by Jews, i.e. adherents of the Jewish religion. It was founded between 3000 BCE and 2600 BCE by a West Semitic people or possibly the Canaanites, the common ancestors of Palestinians, Lebanese, many Syrians and Jordanians, and many Jews. But when it was founded Jews did not exist.
 
2014-07-20 11:20:05 PM  
Does anyone think he didn't know the mics were live?
 
2014-07-20 11:22:39 PM  

Mugato: Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.

Nevertheless, it is a hard fact that U.S. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties, a risk that exists in every war.  And for the families of those civilians, no words or legal construct can justify their loss.  For me, and those in my chain of command, those deaths will haunt us as long as we live, just as we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

-President Barack Obama 5/24/13

I'm sure he sounded very sincere when he said it, too.

Well at least he said it and at least gave the appearance of self awareness instead of showing up in a flight suit like Bill Paxton Pullman in Independence Day.


And of course who can forget the immortal words of George W Bush: "Game over, man, Game over."
 
2014-07-20 11:37:12 PM  

bdub77: Mugato: Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.

Nevertheless, it is a hard fact that U.S. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties, a risk that exists in every war.  And for the families of those civilians, no words or legal construct can justify their loss.  For me, and those in my chain of command, those deaths will haunt us as long as we live, just as we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

-President Barack Obama 5/24/13

I'm sure he sounded very sincere when he said it, too.

Well at least he said it and at least gave the appearance of self awareness instead of showing up in a flight suit like Bill Paxton Pullman in Independence Day.

And of course who can forget the immortal words of George W Bush: "Game over, man, Game over."


I'm pretty sure that was Rand Paul.
 
2014-07-20 11:40:41 PM  

meat0918: Does anyone think he didn't know the mics were live?


Either way, I'm not sure why the "Dumbass" tag was used here. Telling a bully that he's being a bully is supposed to be a gaffe?
 
2014-07-20 11:44:05 PM  
Uh oh.  Somebody didn't properly kiss Israel's ass.  Burn em!
 
2014-07-20 11:44:35 PM  

Somacandra: doyner: Based on what I've learned in other threads, they're either military targets or you're an anti-semite.

There are good ways to avoid anti-Semitism when criticizing Israel--usually being as very specific in one's criticism as possible. That's just common sense anyway. By the same token, there are good ways to avoid being racist in the other direction as well.

/yeah, welcome to fark, I know


With the same spirit in mind, please be mindful of how you criticize the Russian goverent. Being called anti-Caucasian is a very heavy burden to bear.
 
2014-07-20 11:44:38 PM  

meat0918: Does anyone think he didn't know the mics were live?


He was talking on the phone to an aide. Why would this count as an "unguarded comment"? He obviously thought it was a private conversation.

Also, "It's a hell of a targeted operation": or whatever he said is not meaningful. Nobody could parse any meaning out of that, regardless of the tone. no information was communicated, just noise.
 
2014-07-20 11:44:49 PM  

namatad: So was every country in the world.
Seriously, not a single country exists what wasnt conqueror at one point or another.


I'm pretty sure both Canada and Mexico have not conquered anyone.
 
2014-07-20 11:45:10 PM  
Many of you are thinking, "How can the Jews, victims of the holocaust, behave like Nazi Germans?"

But now think of how closely German stereotypes match up with Jewish stereotypes ...

German stereotypes: Efficient, hard working, punctual, follow rules, self loathing, philosophers, engineers and musicians

Jewish stereotypes: Greedy, intelligent, guilt inducingJewish mothers, lawyers, scientists and entertainers

In other words, there is not much difference between these two groups in our collective imagination ... well perhaps not much except beer and sausage which are much better than their Jewish counterparts.

Yeah yeah, screw stereotypes.  Whatever
 
2014-07-20 11:46:40 PM  
rosebud_the_sled:I'm pretty sure both Canada and Mexico have not conquered anyone.

cdn5.movieclips.com
 
2014-07-20 11:47:13 PM  
Hamas are a bunch of assholes. Just tired of Israel not accepting the same label. Own it.
 
2014-07-20 11:48:36 PM  

rosebud_the_sled: namatad: So was every country in the world.
Seriously, not a single country exists what wasnt conqueror at one point or another.

I'm pretty sure both Canada and Mexico have not conquered anyone.


Native Americans woould beg to differ.
 
2014-07-20 11:54:01 PM  
Did Kerry not back up Israel's final solution to the Palestinian problem?
 
2014-07-20 11:58:41 PM  
So pathetic that an incredibly mild criticism of something pretty damned horrific is a 'slip' in the US.
 
2014-07-21 12:00:14 AM  

fusillade762: bdub77: Mugato: Nabb1: cameroncrazy1984: Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.

Nevertheless, it is a hard fact that U.S. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties, a risk that exists in every war.  And for the families of those civilians, no words or legal construct can justify their loss.  For me, and those in my chain of command, those deaths will haunt us as long as we live, just as we are haunted by the civilian casualties that have occurred throughout conventional fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

-President Barack Obama 5/24/13

I'm sure he sounded very sincere when he said it, too.

Well at least he said it and at least gave the appearance of self awareness instead of showing up in a flight suit like Bill Paxton Pullman in Independence Day.

And of course who can forget the immortal words of George W Bush: "Game over, man, Game over."

I'm pretty sure that was Rand Paul.


No, I think Rand Paul was the one who asked, "Is this a stand up fight, Sir? Or another bug hunt?"
 
2014-07-21 12:01:00 AM  

Somacandra: Which is a bad idea in the long run--scratch an apparent Philo-Semite like that and you'll often find an Anti-Semite underneath. Such people should be exposed and held accountable in public discourse for scapegoating "Jews" in any collective sense. Or some people claiming to be more Jewish than Jewish persons 'think they are.'


I think you might be conflating Jews and Zionists.  The Jews I know neither care for nor support Israel's behavior.

/Of course they're not ultra-Conservative rabid Zionists.
 
2014-07-21 12:02:59 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Somacandra: Which is a bad idea in the long run--scratch an apparent Philo-Semite like that and you'll often find an Anti-Semite underneath. Such people should be exposed and held accountable in public discourse for scapegoating "Jews" in any collective sense. Or some people claiming to be more Jewish than Jewish persons 'think they are.'

I think you might be conflating Jews and Zionists.  The Jews I know neither care for nor support Israel's behavior.

/Of course they're not ultra-Conservative rabid Zionists.


Follow the links.
 
2014-07-21 12:07:33 AM  
DarkSoulNoHope:And of course who can forget the immortal words of George W Bush: "Game over, man, Game over."

I'm pretty sure that was Rand Paul.

No, I think Rand Paul was the one who asked, "Is this a stand up fight, Sir? Or another bug hunt?"


No, libtards. Get it right. Rand Paul was the one who stood in the bridge in Isengard as he faced down the Balrog and yelled "YOU SHALL NOT PASS"
 
2014-07-21 12:10:56 AM  

DeaH: Nabb1: Israel should just use drone strikes on Hamas. The Administration has no problems with civilian casualties from drone strikes.
e
I honestly don't know the answer to this, but are there as many civilian casualties with drone strikes and with targeted bomb strikes of the sort Israel is using?


No.

The Predator is armed with three 100-lb Hellfire missiles, which has a blast radius of about 20 meters. A  500-lb JDAM has a blast radius of about 40 meters, so assuming that you're ONLY talking about the kill zone, a targeted drone strike is much "safer" if you want to use that kind of terminology than even the most precision bomb strike.

Now, a quickie search without any filtering shows that Israel may (or may not) be using flechette rounds and possibly DIME explosives (which have to be the nastiest in a long devolution of antipersonnel weapons), and we know they've used white phosphorous in the past, so it's difficult to talk about the "kill radius" of any weapon without knowing what kind of shrapnel or chemical fallout is being used. And even a targeted drone strike would kill lots and lots of people if, for instance, it ripped out the support beams in the bottom floor of a seven-story building.

This is war. War kills lots of innocent people.
 
2014-07-21 12:13:06 AM  
Hell the republicans would have us do this to camps full of central american refugees on the mexican border, if they had their druthers.
 
2014-07-21 12:14:57 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Somacandra: Which is a bad idea in the long run--scratch an apparent Philo-Semite like that and you'll often find an Anti-Semite underneath. Such people should be exposed and held accountable in public discourse for scapegoating "Jews" in any collective sense. Or some people claiming to be more Jewish than Jewish persons 'think they are.'

I think you might be conflating Jews and Zionists.  The Jews I know neither care for nor support Israel's behavior.

/Of course they're not ultra-Conservative rabid Zionists.


i28.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-21 12:20:50 AM  
In his own mind, Kerry is an excellent llent statesman.
 
2014-07-21 12:24:35 AM  
There is no convincing reason to believe that America or any other country (even "liberal" ones like Canada and France) would not behave exactly like Israel or worse if placed in the same situation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that no one has any inherent moral superiority. If Native Americans were still fighting back and lobbing rockets at American cities, the US army would be doing the same shiat as the IDF, and also without most of the world's sympathy--even if hypothetically European "Americans" were a people who lived on this land 2,000 years ago and only recently got it back.

On the flip side of the same coin, there is no reason to believe Jews, Americans, or any other population wouldn't behave just like the Palestinians if put in the exact same situation. It's a lot easier to show some restraint when you have nukes and a huge firepower advantage. Zionists committed terrorism back when their hand was weak, and probably so would any other population (at least a militant faction within that would gain mainstream support). Again, not saying it's right or wrong, just that no society can claim to be immune.
 
2014-07-21 12:24:39 AM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: Dwight_Yeast: Somacandra: Which is a bad idea in the long run--scratch an apparent Philo-Semite like that and you'll often find an Anti-Semite underneath. Such people should be exposed and held accountable in public discourse for scapegoating "Jews" in any collective sense. Or some people claiming to be more Jewish than Jewish persons 'think they are.'

I think you might be conflating Jews and Zionists.  The Jews I know neither care for nor support Israel's behavior.

/Of course they're not ultra-Conservative rabid Zionists.

Follow the links.


Uh, yeah.  I'd not call Bachmann a philo-Semite.  She's an antisemite with a Zionist covering.  That was my point (which I manged): not all Zionists are Jews, not all Jews are Zionists.
 
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