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(WTAE)   Police see cheerleader walking home with friends eating ice cream after 10 PM, so they protect and serve the hell out of her   (wtae.com) divider line 795
    More: Asinine  
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25152 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2014 at 12:37 PM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-17 04:46:29 PM  

redmid17: ....and the other can take the car, drive it up the street, park it in front of the girl, and calmly address her.


Every agency I know of prohibits pursuit of a subject on foot with a patrol unit for a very good reason.
 
2014-07-17 04:46:32 PM  

MycroftHolmes: Click Click D'oh: redmid17: I'm saying that tackling her was *completely* unnecessary and the cops escalated a situation which, in no way shape or form, required it.

Since you've finally admitted she was running from the police, how would you have stopped her?  Assuming no feats of supernatural strength or speed.

"Grab her arm, shoulder, or run in front of the walking teenager..."


It's either that or they tripped and accidentally slammed into her making her think it was a tackle.  Leaping generally makes sense.
 
2014-07-17 04:47:23 PM  

tlars699: I am not being intellecutally dishonest. First one thing happened, and then the next thing happened. One started, and caused the other to be set in motion.

Also, it has been my position in the thread that  even if the police were right, that she technically had been resisting arrest, that they methods they used to stop her were far in excess.

Yours  seems to be that it was okay, and she should have known better/expected it, despite not having been on the wrong side of the law prior.


We're getting close to at least honest discussion here, finally. The debate about excess force for me hinges on one thing: evidence that such force actually occurred. The picture in the article isn't helping her cause, but of course we can't see internal injuries.

With that said, however, typically if you've got more than minor bruising from a knee/leg on your neck during arrest you're going to have some exterior damage, too; that damage doesn't seem to be present. Her face looks unmolested despite being tackled, so it's probable that those cuts/abrasions are to the knees, legs, arms, hands, etc - typically fall damage.

Given the totality of the circumstances, signs point to her making her "injuries" sound worse than they are to garner sympathy and support, and it's working fantastically well.

As for the hair pulling: who really cares? Hair is a GREAT way to control someone, and as far as I'm concerned it's not over the line to use it for that purpose when someone is fighting you. Hell, it's a part of the uniform in the NFL, why shouldn't police grab it if you're being violence towards them?
 
2014-07-17 04:47:37 PM  

Click Click D'oh: redmid17: I'm saying that tackling her was *completely* unnecessary and the cops escalated a situation which, in no way shape or form, required it.

Since you've finally admitted she was running from the police, how would you have stopped her?  Assuming no feats of supernatural strength or speed.


Well you have her friends. You can get her name. Just issue her a ticket later and have a nice talk with her parents about the curfew. No injuries, no bad PR, and some revenue for the city.
 
2014-07-17 04:48:06 PM  

pedrop357: I wouldn't actively question someone walking down the street with ice cream in their hand


So, as a police officer sworn to uphold the laws of your jurisdiction, you wouldn't uphold the laws of your jurisdiction?  Sounds like a short career path for you.
 
2014-07-17 04:48:37 PM  

SubBass49: A cop has to be on guard 100% all the time


Cops don't do shiat. A roofer has a more dangerous job than a cop.
 
2014-07-17 04:48:57 PM  

MycroftHolmes: Just so you know, I agree with you, I was quoting Redmid from upthread when I asked him the same question


Yeah I know.  Just wanted to get the response in before it got lost in the clutter again.
 
2014-07-17 04:49:06 PM  

MycroftHolmes: Nezorf: You would think that professional police officers would be trained in subduing techniques that don't include kicking, punching, or pulling hair.  A class in dispute negotiation or non violent mediation would be helpful too.

"You there running away, can we discuss your options?  We really should, hey slow down, look at different ways we can resolve this peacably.  Hey, let me catch up, let me make sure I understand your perspective so that we can find a mutually agreeable outcome.'

Not sure that this really works when someone is running.

And honestly, any use of force they tried would be criticized the same.  Use a nightstick, a tazer, a bean bag gun, whatever, the complaint would be the same.


I was mainly referring to the escalation by the police.
They knew they were escalating the situation by getting out of the car and should have done it in a way to not escalate it further.
Jumping out and running was an escalating move.

Also when you are a trained police officer, you are easily 50 pounds heavier than the person you are holding down, and you have assistance, you easily should have enough power to hold someone down without kicking them. I've seen people get detained and they go right to punching and kicking. no wrist holding. no full nelson. Kick to the face ought to do it.
That is what I'm citing. Yeah the use of a weapon would have been a similar complaint.

I'm not excusing her actions but am always shocked that police do not use diffusion techniques.
 
2014-07-17 04:49:27 PM  

redmid17: Click Click D'oh: redmid17: I'm saying that tackling her was *completely* unnecessary and the cops escalated a situation which, in no way shape or form, required it.

Since you've finally admitted she was running from the police, how would you have stopped her?  Assuming no feats of supernatural strength or speed.

Well you have her friends. You can get her name. Just issue her a ticket later and have a nice talk with her parents about the curfew. No injuries, no bad PR, and some revenue for the city.


And possible disappeared teenager since while you're driving said friends home leaving her to walk, it's always vaguely possible she'll turn into a statistic
 
2014-07-17 04:50:03 PM  

kosherkow: MycroftHolmes: kosherkow: cops put a 17 year old, 100lb girl, in the hospital for a curfew violation and that's ok?

pathetic on the cops and only shows poor training if this is the way they have to apprehend someone with such a size disadvantage.

all of you in support of these LEOs are awful human beings

The use of force was not related to the curfew violation at all.  Do you honestly not get that?

and that somehow makes it ok what the police did?


In point of fact, I do not have a problem with what the police did, based on the facts presented.  But my point was to show the invalidity of your argument that the physical force was used in response to her being out after curfew.  The physical response was due to her running after ignoring a command to stop.

You want to argue that we shouldn't have curfews, that is a different argument.  But they had one, the police were enforcing it, and responded approrpiately when the suspect started to run and resist (both by her own admission)
 
2014-07-17 04:50:29 PM  

Click Click D'oh: MycroftHolmes: "Grab her arm, shoulder, or run in front of the walking teenager..."

Because doing those actions to a running person would never, ever result in something that looks exactly like a tackle... right?


basically your argument is the police can't be trusted to use discretion to treat an indignant teenage girl differently than some MMA type guy who just robbed a liquor store. This is exactly why they need very strict guidelines on how to handle people, they obviously have no ability to make a judgement call to the point that you are using it as the cornerstone of your argument.
 
2014-07-17 04:50:43 PM  

redmid17: Just issue her a ticket later and have a nice talk with her parents about the curfew.


Issue who a ticket?  You let her walk away.
 
2014-07-17 04:50:48 PM  

Click Click D'oh: tlars699: They weren't even being "detained" until after that happened.
No, they were being detained at step 1.  See:

tlars699:
1. Group gets stopped.
2. Group gets questioned.
3. Merceedes: "Crap! I left my crap at the shop"
4. Group tells police: "We have to go back- Merceedes forgot her stuff lol." Merceedes starts walking towards shop.
5. Police say to group, "Tell your friend to get back here, we're not through." Friend calls out "Merceedes!"
6. Merceedes turns around, sees officers rushing to get out of vehicles, panics, starts running.

That's a detention.

tlars699: . If they already had gotten everyone's personal info, there would be no need for this at all.

1) No, stop making up legal bullcrap
2) You don't know they had been ID'd, stop making up details
3) They may have still been waiting to cite them for curfew violations
4) As previously discussed, the officers still have the option to retain the girls to see a judge.


1. I've been stopped by a police officer before, and questioned, without being "detained".
1b. If they had gotten the info, there would be no further need to detain them.
If they weren't getting people's info, the teens weren't being cited, and therefore not detained.
If they hadn't just yet started to get people's info, then what was taking them so long, and why didn't they get out of the friggin' car to start with? Have the teens sit on the curb, and tell them to wait it out.
2. I said IF- they may have, or they may not have yet. Not clear from article.
3. True. IF.
4. Only if she hadn't yet been issued the citation, and it was clear they were going to, i.e. getting her info and telling her directly to wait for the ticket.
 
2014-07-17 04:51:00 PM  

Nezorf: MycroftHolmes: Nezorf: You would think that professional police officers would be trained in subduing techniques that don't include kicking, punching, or pulling hair.  A class in dispute negotiation or non violent mediation would be helpful too.

"You there running away, can we discuss your options?  We really should, hey slow down, look at different ways we can resolve this peacably.  Hey, let me catch up, let me make sure I understand your perspective so that we can find a mutually agreeable outcome.'

Not sure that this really works when someone is running.

And honestly, any use of force they tried would be criticized the same.  Use a nightstick, a tazer, a bean bag gun, whatever, the complaint would be the same.


I was mainly referring to the escalation by the police.
They knew they were escalating the situation by getting out of the car and should have done it in a way to not escalate it further.
Jumping out and running was an escalating move.


Assuming they instructed her first to not leave and then to come back what should they have done differently at this point?
 
2014-07-17 04:51:23 PM  

PunGent: Mugato: Tigger: There should be no such thing as a farking curfew at all.

Really. I never even heard of such a thing. Curfew? What is this some dystopian sci-fi movie world?

/seriously, never heard of that

notsureifserious.jpg

It's a very old word, from the French iirc, for "cover the fire".


Well of course I know what the word means as in a parent telling their kid when to get home. But i never heard of i in terms of this gestapo shiat.
 
2014-07-17 04:51:34 PM  

Click Click D'oh: redmid17: ....and the other can take the car, drive it up the street, park it in front of the girl, and calmly address her.

Every agency I know of prohibits pursuit of a subject on foot with a patrol unit for a very good reason.


She was walking. Drive down the street 100 ft. Get out, lock the door, and calmly walk up to her. Don't drive on the sidewalk over her.

MycroftHolmes:
If pusuing someone on foot, They can likely change direction or go other places a lot more easily than a car.  Do you know what direction the car was facing relative to where she was walking?  If she was going to bolt because a cop was chasing her, what reason do you have to believe she wouldn't bolt when a cop started driving after her?

Yes and she was walking. Do you think someone is more likely to run with then see a car driving down the street or two armed men chasing her?
 
2014-07-17 04:52:27 PM  

cwolf20: So you missed the part where the article specifies that the curfew in That town for teenagers is 10pm.


Here's the thing, cops rarely bother with curfew, at most they just tell whoever is out to go home. Especially if it's right near curfew time.
 
2014-07-17 04:52:52 PM  

Click Click D'oh: pedrop357: I wouldn't actively question someone walking down the street with ice cream in their hand

So, as a police officer sworn to uphold the laws of your jurisdiction, you wouldn't uphold the laws of your jurisdiction?  Sounds like a short career path for you.


I would do what every cop does and prioritize my actions.  A group of teens walking down the street at 10:05pm with ice cream in their hands is not an issue worth dealing with.
 
2014-07-17 04:54:30 PM  

Headso: basically your argument is the police can't be trusted to use discretion to treat an indignant teenage girl differently than some MMA type guy who just robbed a liquor store.


If that's how bad your reading comprehension is, keep on that track.

My argument is that stopping running people against their will almost always results in people falling to the ground in such a manner that they all count as being "tackled", no matter what your intention was.  Running is a very delicate balancing act for the human body.  Outside forces operating on it in anyway tend to make things go all wobbly.
 
2014-07-17 04:54:36 PM  

Nezorf: MycroftHolmes: Nezorf: You would think that professional police officers would be trained in subduing techniques that don't include kicking, punching, or pulling hair.  A class in dispute negotiation or non violent mediation would be helpful too.

"You there running away, can we discuss your options?  We really should, hey slow down, look at different ways we can resolve this peacably.  Hey, let me catch up, let me make sure I understand your perspective so that we can find a mutually agreeable outcome.'

Not sure that this really works when someone is running.

And honestly, any use of force they tried would be criticized the same.  Use a nightstick, a tazer, a bean bag gun, whatever, the complaint would be the same.

I was mainly referring to the escalation by the police.
They knew they were escalating the situation by getting out of the car and should have done it in a way to not escalate it further.
Jumping out and running was an escalating move.

Also when you are a trained police officer, you are easily 50 pounds heavier than the person you are holding down, and you have assistance, you easily should have enough power to hold someone down without kicking them. I've seen people get detained and they go right to punching and kicking. no wrist holding. no full nelson. Kick to the face ought to do it.
That is what I'm citing. Yeah the use of a weapon would have been a similar complaint.

I'm not excusing her actions but am always shocked that police do not use diffusion techniques.


Well, she ignored them and then took off running, and then resisted after tackled.  Not sure what other options the police had.  We really do not not the degree to which the kicking and punching occured.  A forceful knee in the pack and a grab or shove to the head will look like punching and kicking.

All I can say, is that if two grown men (or even one grown man) were giving a girl a full on beating and had 50 to 100 pounds of weight on her, she weathered that awfully well.  If they were really going off, and not just doing the necessary to subdue her, and delivering a beating, I would expect her to be in a whole lot worse shape.
 
2014-07-17 04:54:38 PM  

redmid17: Click Click D'oh: redmid17: I'm saying that tackling her was *completely* unnecessary and the cops escalated a situation which, in no way shape or form, required it.

Since you've finally admitted she was running from the police, how would you have stopped her?  Assuming no feats of supernatural strength or speed.

Well you have her friends. You can get her name. Just issue her a ticket later and have a nice talk with her parents about the curfew. No injuries, no bad PR, and some revenue for the city.


You've got 3/4 of them - why bother attempting to stop someone who is willfully and purposely ignoring your questions while attempting to leave a lawful detainment situation? Yeah, that's totally cool. Surely you'd be alright with that in every circumstance, because, well, police can't just make assumptions about situations lest they end up tackling a cheerleader who's breaking the law rather than an actual criminal, right?

/Even Hodor isn't this monotonous.
 
2014-07-17 04:55:10 PM  

Click Click D'oh: MycroftHolmes: Just so you know, I agree with you, I was quoting Redmid from upthread when I asked him the same question

Yeah I know.  Just wanted to get the response in before it got lost in the clutter again.


I don't know about you, but grabbing someone and tackling someone look a lot different to me. Maybe I watch too much football or something.

Click Click D'oh: redmid17: Just issue her a ticket later and have a nice talk with her parents about the curfew.

Issue who a ticket?  You let her walk away.


I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. If you have the friends, you can get a name, probably an address. Follow up at the parents house later, issue a ticket, and have a nice talk with them about curfew. That's even ignoring that she was ostensibly coming back to the group anyway once she retrieved the phone and purse.
 
2014-07-17 04:55:36 PM  

Click Click D'oh: So, as a police officer sworn to uphold the laws of your jurisdiction, you wouldn't uphold the laws of your jurisdiction? Sounds like a short career path for you.


If cops were like that, they'd spend all their time writing tickets for jay walking and other small stuff. Which really isn't productive.
 
2014-07-17 04:57:31 PM  

jst3p: Nezorf: MycroftHolmes: Nezorf: You would think that professional police officers would be trained in subduing techniques that don't include kicking, punching, or pulling hair.  A class in dispute negotiation or non violent mediation would be helpful too.

"You there running away, can we discuss your options?  We really should, hey slow down, look at different ways we can resolve this peacably.  Hey, let me catch up, let me make sure I understand your perspective so that we can find a mutually agreeable outcome.'

Not sure that this really works when someone is running.

And honestly, any use of force they tried would be criticized the same.  Use a nightstick, a tazer, a bean bag gun, whatever, the complaint would be the same.


I was mainly referring to the escalation by the police.
They knew they were escalating the situation by getting out of the car and should have done it in a way to not escalate it further.
Jumping out and running was an escalating move.

Assuming they instructed her first to not leave and then to come back what should they have done differently at this point?


According to her they got out of the car quickly and started towards her at a fast pace.
That was a mistake. They escalated the situation by acting in an aggressive manner.
They weren't trying to detain the kids and one kept walking.
Calmly get out and talk to her.
Maybe in a polite manner "miss, miss! I need you to stay here. We can get your stuff later. Please stop walking or I will have to handcuff you for resisting arrest."

Someone was walking away from them and the jumped out an ran at her. Escalation.
 
2014-07-17 04:58:18 PM  

tlars699: 1. I've been stopped by a police officer before, and questioned, without being "detained".


We're you free to leave at any point in the interaction?  If no, they you were detained.  If by "stopped" you mean "pull over", then you were most certainly detained.

tlars699: 1b. If they had gotten the info, there would be no further need to detain them.


Again false

tlars699: If they weren't getting people's info, the teens weren't being cited, and therefore not detained.


Says who?  You?  LOL.

tlars699: If they hadn't just yet started to get people's info, then what was taking them so long,


Any of a long number of reasons

tlars699: and why didn't they get out of the friggin' car to start with?


Apparently members of Fark think that's an unacceptable level of escalation on the part of the police.

tlars699: 4. Only if she hadn't yet been issued the citation, and it was clear they were going to, i.e. getting her info and telling her directly to wait for the ticket.


False on all levels.  If you are being detained by a police officer, you may not leave.  Period.
 
gja
2014-07-17 04:58:22 PM  
Click Click D'oh: tlars699: Also, even if they hadn't gotten her info, I would say that the police's escalation was far in excess of what was warranted to solve the situation. One guy can stay by the group and file reports taze the onlookers , and the other can use the car to track  run her down at walking high speed.

Lol.

Seriously?
/FTFH to reflect reality
 
2014-07-17 04:58:25 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Click Click D'oh: So, as a police officer sworn to uphold the laws of your jurisdiction, you wouldn't uphold the laws of your jurisdiction? Sounds like a short career path for you.

If cops were like that, they'd spend all their time writing tickets for jay walking and other small stuff. Which really isn't productive.


Tell me, do you know the difference between a violation, a midemeanor, and a felony? It doesn't seem like you do.
 
2014-07-17 04:58:31 PM  
When I was younger, I was stopped and questioned several times for breaking curfew.

I never had a bad interaction with the cops.  I will say that the larger the group I was in the more intense the cops behaved until they started to talk to us and then they would calm down.

*cop car pulls in front of group blocking forward progress, cop[s] hop out of car with hand on holster*
Cop:  Hey, what are you guys doing out at this hour?
Us: We were over at xxxx place and have to walk home which is at xxxx address
Cop: Alright, any of you have ID?
*Whoever does have ID in the group hands it over*

At this point, depending on the size of the group and age/number of people with ID and distance from the destination we were either given a ride to the destination or the cop gave us a lecture on having an adult escort us (Because the curfew around here is only valid if there isn't an adult with you) and we all went on our merry way.

That situation happened to me probably 10 times and it happened almost exactly as stated above every time.  No one was ever arrested, no one was ever tackled or even cited.  The cop starts off defensive, expecting the worst outcome and will eventually relax as the situation unfolds and they recognize that we aren't going to harm them or try to run away.  The only exception was the one time we all got the zip-strip cuffs because there was about 10 of us and one officer.  Even that encounter ended fine once they were comfortable with the situation.
 
2014-07-17 04:58:46 PM  

Nezorf: They weren't

were trying to detain the kids and one kept walking.
Sorry dumb phone
 
2014-07-17 04:59:09 PM  

redmid17: I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. If you have the friends, you can get a name, probably an address.


You really think so?

I imagine it would work out like this:

"What was that young ladies name"
"Who?"
"The girl that walked away?"
"What girl are you talking about?"
"The girl in the white top and jean shorts, said she was going to get her bag and come back here remember?"
"Oh we don't know her, just met her tonight. I think her name is Jane or something."
 
2014-07-17 04:59:10 PM  
Fark Copologists..White Knighting police brutality.
 
2014-07-17 04:59:53 PM  

Recoil Therapy: It may not be justified but the reality is that if you make the police chase you, they WILL beat on you a bit when they catch you.



Chris Rock said it first:
How not to get your ass kick by the police
 
2014-07-17 04:59:54 PM  

redmid17: She was walking. Drive down the street 100 ft. Get out, lock the door, and calmly walk up to her. Don't drive on the sidewalk over her.


I thought she was running a few moments ago?  This is getting so confusing.

Either way, what happens when the daffy innocent panic girl cuts in front of your cruiser?  Explain that one to the news media.
 
2014-07-17 04:59:57 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: redmid17: Click Click D'oh: redmid17: I'm saying that tackling her was *completely* unnecessary and the cops escalated a situation which, in no way shape or form, required it.

Since you've finally admitted she was running from the police, how would you have stopped her?  Assuming no feats of supernatural strength or speed.

Well you have her friends. You can get her name. Just issue her a ticket later and have a nice talk with her parents about the curfew. No injuries, no bad PR, and some revenue for the city.

You've got 3/4 of them - why bother attempting to stop someone who is willfully and purposely ignoring your questions while attempting to leave a lawful detainment situation? Yeah, that's totally cool. Surely you'd be alright with that in every circumstance, because, well, police can't just make assumptions about situations lest they end up tackling a cheerleader who's breaking the law rather than an actual criminal, right?

/Even Hodor isn't this monotonous.


Well to be honest, it's a non violent crime. Pittsburgh PD has more important shiat to deal with than kids out 5 minutes past curfew getting ice cream. Get out, tell them to go home, and leave it at that. If the person is suspected of a serious crime or has been violent, yeah that's obviously grounds for force.

I don't think force should be used in a situation like this.
 
2014-07-17 05:00:44 PM  

jst3p: tlars699: I am not being intellecutally dishonest. First one thing happened, and then the next thing happened. One started, and caused the other to be set in motion.

Wrong again. The stop did not cause her to disregard the cop and walk (then run) away.  That was a decision she made. The fact that she walked (then ran) away did  cause the cops to use force though. That is how cause and effect actually work.

Also, it has been my position in the thread that  even if the police were right, that she technically had been resisting arrest, that they methods they used to stop her were far in excess.

You are entitled to your opinion, I can only fault you for being wrong about facts.

Yours  seems to be that it was okay, and she should have known better/expected it, despite not having been on the wrong side of the law prior.

She was on the wrong side of the law as soon as she ignored a lawful order.


The stop caused her to wait and reflect on her person, which caused her to think of her bag, which caused her to go back to the store and tell the group and cops where she was going and why, which caused the cops to get out of the car, which caused the girl to panic, and start running which caused the cops to tackle her...

So, the stop over a violation of curfew led to the police using excessive force. It didn't have to, but it did.


/Which cause the house that Jack Built
 
2014-07-17 05:00:54 PM  

Click Click D'oh: Headso: basically your argument is the police can't be trusted to use discretion to treat an indignant teenage girl differently than some MMA type guy who just robbed a liquor store.

If that's how bad your reading comprehension is, keep on that track.

My argument is that stopping running people against their will almost always results in people falling to the ground in such a manner that they all count as being "tackled", no matter what your intention was.  Running is a very delicate balancing act for the human body.  Outside forces operating on it in anyway tend to make things go all wobbly.


See how you have to say "running people" thus lumping the harmless 100 lb teenage girl with the 220lb career criminal when you are doing your bootlicking?  That's how you are suggesting the police have no ability to use discretion, which I am right with you. Although your answer to that is to blame the victims of brutality, which is kinda farked up IMO.
 
2014-07-17 05:01:11 PM  

Nezorf: jst3p: Nezorf: MycroftHolmes: Nezorf: You would think that professional police officers would be trained in subduing techniques that don't include kicking, punching, or pulling hair.  A class in dispute negotiation or non violent mediation would be helpful too.

"You there running away, can we discuss your options?  We really should, hey slow down, look at different ways we can resolve this peacably.  Hey, let me catch up, let me make sure I understand your perspective so that we can find a mutually agreeable outcome.'

Not sure that this really works when someone is running.

And honestly, any use of force they tried would be criticized the same.  Use a nightstick, a tazer, a bean bag gun, whatever, the complaint would be the same.


I was mainly referring to the escalation by the police.
They knew they were escalating the situation by getting out of the car and should have done it in a way to not escalate it further.
Jumping out and running was an escalating move.

Assuming they instructed her first to not leave and then to come back what should they have done differently at this point?

According to her they got out of the car quickly and started towards her at a fast pace.
That was a mistake. They escalated the situation by acting in an aggressive manner.
They weren't trying to detain the kids and one kept walking.
Calmly get out and talk to her.
Maybe in a polite manner "miss, miss! I need you to stay here. We can get your stuff later. Please stop walking or I will have to handcuff you for resisting arrest."

Someone was walking away from them and the jumped out an ran at her. Escalation.


Assuming you meant "were", I don't see it that way.

They had detained the group. She wanted to leave, they informed the group that they were being detained and she ignored them.
 
2014-07-17 05:01:31 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: WhyteRaven74: Click Click D'oh: So, as a police officer sworn to uphold the laws of your jurisdiction, you wouldn't uphold the laws of your jurisdiction? Sounds like a short career path for you.

If cops were like that, they'd spend all their time writing tickets for jay walking and other small stuff. Which really isn't productive.

Tell me, do you know the difference between a violation, a midemeanor, and a felony? It doesn't seem like you do.


On a related note.  The police in my city are supposed to write a 50 dollar fine ticket for cussing every time someone cusses in public. They don't unless they're pulling an asshole out of a restaurant for drunk and disorderly or a car for being DUI.  Then the 50 gets slapped on and the judge accepts it without argument.

They can also fine general assholes if they feel like it.  Usually the fine is restricted to the drunk side the force however.
 
2014-07-17 05:02:14 PM  

redmid17: If you have the friends, you can get a name, probably an address.


And why would they give you that?
 
2014-07-17 05:03:16 PM  

redmid17: I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. If you have the friends, you can get a name, probably an address. Follow up at the parents house later, issue a ticket, and have a nice talk with them about curfew. That's even ignoring that she was ostensibly coming back to the group anyway once she retrieved the phone and purse.


Yep.

Just follow her while she retrieves these items.  THEN you TALK to her about not walking away, possibly even cite her for it.

People do interesting things when they feel pressure.  I know to expect mildly irrational behavior from friends who do things like leave behind valuables at a business that's near or just after closing time.  We are expected to stop and go back RIGHT NOW.  This makes sense, but their approach is a tad bit irrational and you either walk away from them or go back with them.  Arguing/interfering is a great way to be on the receiving end of whatever agitation they've built up.

Ever watch someone who leaves something behind on a plane?  They will RUN back because if they don't get it now, there's a good chance that they will never see it again.  Were I a cop and wanting to talk to someone who was insistent on retrieving a lost item from an aircraft, I might actually find it more useful to defuse that person by walking right with them while they did this minor thing they want to do.

It's AMAZING what can be accomplished with a little patience, but cops seem to be on permanent power trips and have no interest in compromising even the smallest amount if it makes for a more peaceful, calmer outcome.  As long as they come out ahead, screw everyone and everything else.

We see this at play when dealing with someone who is agitated, but containable.  Rather than let that person vent and whine, they choose to touch that person and get close to their face/front, which human nature will tell you only makes that person more agitated at which point they get violent with that suspect on the grounds that they were volatile.  Nevermind that they were only volatile because they were being needlessly touched while in an agitated state.

I'm becoming convinced that if cops actually understood human nature and were smart, they wouldn't be cops.
 
2014-07-17 05:03:18 PM  

redmid17: Click Click D'oh: redmid17: ....and the other can take the car, drive it up the street, park it in front of the girl, and calmly address her.

Every agency I know of prohibits pursuit of a subject on foot with a patrol unit for a very good reason.

She was walking. Drive down the street 100 ft. Get out, lock the door, and calmly walk up to her. Don't drive on the sidewalk over her.

MycroftHolmes:
If pusuing someone on foot, They can likely change direction or go other places a lot more easily than a car.  Do you know what direction the car was facing relative to where she was walking?  If she was going to bolt because a cop was chasing her, what reason do you have to believe she wouldn't bolt when a cop started driving after her?

Yes and she was walking. Do you think someone is more likely to run with then see a car driving down the street or two armed men chasing her?


It is disingenuous to call them armed men, as if they were random men with guns.  They were police.  She knew they were police.

As to how she would react to a car chasing her, I don't know.  It is certainly not a guarantee that she still won't run.  And it is a whole lot more dangerous, now you have a guy in a large machine having to keep track of the person he was following while still safely driving.  Pretty sure that trying to turn the car around and chasing her is really not a significantly better option than just getting out of the car and chasing her down.
 
2014-07-17 05:04:08 PM  

tlars699: jst3p: tlars699: I am not being intellecutally dishonest. First one thing happened, and then the next thing happened. One started, and caused the other to be set in motion.

Wrong again. The stop did not cause her to disregard the cop and walk (then run) away.  That was a decision she made. The fact that she walked (then ran) away did  cause the cops to use force though. That is how cause and effect actually work.

Also, it has been my position in the thread that  even if the police were right, that she technically had been resisting arrest, that they methods they used to stop her were far in excess.

You are entitled to your opinion, I can only fault you for being wrong about facts.

Yours  seems to be that it was okay, and she should have known better/expected it, despite not having been on the wrong side of the law prior.

She was on the wrong side of the law as soon as she ignored a lawful order.

The stop caused her to wait and reflect on her person, which caused her to think of her bag, which caused her to go back to the store and tell the group and cops where she was going and why, which caused the cops to get out of the car, which caused the girl to panic, and start running which caused the cops to tackle her...

/Which cause the house that Jack Built


That's the problem, you don't tell the cops what you are going to do. Now she knows better.

So, the stop over a violation of curfew led to the police using excessive force. It didn't have to, but it did.

By your logic her waking up and eating breakfast caused her to get a beating that day, hopefully you can see how wrong that is. The only thing that caused her to take a beating was her decision to break the law. The rest of it just happened before she took a beating.
 
2014-07-17 05:04:36 PM  

Headso: See how you have to say "running people"

...


So, she wasn't running?

God this is confusing.
 
2014-07-17 05:04:39 PM  

Click Click D'oh: Either way, what happens when the daffy innocent panic girl cuts in front of your cruiser?  Explain that one to the news media


In a thread where people are apologizing for the police beating up a teenage girl he is worried the police won't get a fair shake if they accidentally run over someone, lol!
 
2014-07-17 05:04:46 PM  

redmid17: Click Click D'oh: MycroftHolmes: Just so you know, I agree with you, I was quoting Redmid from upthread when I asked him the same question

Yeah I know.  Just wanted to get the response in before it got lost in the clutter again.

I don't know about you, but grabbing someone and tackling someone look a lot different to me. Maybe I watch too much football or something.

Click Click D'oh: redmid17: Just issue her a ticket later and have a nice talk with her parents about the curfew.

Issue who a ticket?  You let her walk away.

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. If you have the friends, you can get a name, probably an address. Follow up at the parents house later, issue a ticket, and have a nice talk with them about curfew. That's even ignoring that she was ostensibly coming back to the group anyway once she retrieved the phone and purse.


I watch a lot of football.  Grabbing someone who is running IS tackling.

As to your second point, yeah, there is no chance that kids would just give a fake name or address, or that the kid would later deny being there period.
 
2014-07-17 05:05:33 PM  

Headso: Click Click D'oh: Either way, what happens when the daffy innocent panic girl cuts in front of your cruiser?  Explain that one to the news media

In a thread where people are apologizing for the police beating up a teenage girl he is worried the police won't get a fair shake if they accidentally run over someone, lol!


To be fair, he is a bootlicker.
 
2014-07-17 05:06:02 PM  

jst3p: redmid17: I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. If you have the friends, you can get a name, probably an address.

You really think so?

I imagine it would work out like this:

"What was that young ladies name"
"Who?"
"The girl that walked away?"
"What girl are you talking about?"
"The girl in the white top and jean shorts, said she was going to get her bag and come back here remember?"
"Oh we don't know her, just met her tonight. I think her name is Jane or something."


Well considering that the police officers are empowered to take those kids to a curfew location center, they have a bit of leverage there.

"Okay, well since you don't know her, we'll have to take you to the detention facility for your parents to pick her up."

It shouldn't be difficult for an adult with any mental faculties to outsmart a teenager


.

Click Click D'oh: redmid17: She was walking. Drive down the street 100 ft. Get out, lock the door, and calmly walk up to her. Don't drive on the sidewalk over her.

I thought she was running a few moments ago?  This is getting so confusing.

Either way, what happens when the daffy innocent panic girl cuts in front of your cruiser?  Explain that one to the news media.


She was walking and started running when they sprinted out of their cruiser. That would seem to imply that she ran because she was scared of them (or had something to hide, which she didn't).

Letting one guy out to talk to the group and then driving a police car up the street isn't likely to elicit the same reaction, imo. Maybe I am incredibly naiive.  I don't know.
 
2014-07-17 05:06:22 PM  

Click Click D'oh: Headso: See how you have to say "running people"...


So, she wasn't running?

God this is confusing.


Schrodinger's cheerleader. She is running and not running simultaneously!
 
2014-07-17 05:06:31 PM  

jst3p: Nezorf: jst3p: Nezorf: MycroftHolmes: Nezorf: You would think that professional police officers would be trained in subduing techniques that don't include kicking, punching, or pulling hair.  A class in dispute negotiation or non violent mediation would be helpful too.

"You there running away, can we discuss your options?  We really should, hey slow down, look at different ways we can resolve this peacably.  Hey, let me catch up, let me make sure I understand your perspective so that we can find a mutually agreeable outcome.'

Not sure that this really works when someone is running.

And honestly, any use of force they tried would be criticized the same.  Use a nightstick, a tazer, a bean bag gun, whatever, the complaint would be the same.


I was mainly referring to the escalation by the police.
They knew they were escalating the situation by getting out of the car and should have done it in a way to not escalate it further.
Jumping out and running was an escalating move.

Assuming they instructed her first to not leave and then to come back what should they have done differently at this point?

According to her they got out of the car quickly and started towards her at a fast pace.
That was a mistake. They escalated the situation by acting in an aggressive manner.
They weren't trying to detain the kids and one kept walking.
Calmly get out and talk to her.
Maybe in a polite manner "miss, miss! I need you to stay here. We can get your stuff later. Please stop walking or I will have to handcuff you for resisting arrest."

Someone was walking away from them and the jumped out an ran at her. Escalation.

Assuming you meant "were", I don't see it that way.

They had detained the group. She wanted to leave, they informed the group that they were being detained and she ignored them.


So they jump out and run her down?
She was walking away and they jumped out and started to run after her.
If they were thinking in a de-escalation sense they would have gotten out of the car normally and walked towards her rather than run.
"I need you to stay here or I will have to arrest you" doesn't seem that far fetched

"I was scared because of how he got out of the car. He didn't just walk out, he jumped out of the car and started chasing me, so my first instinct was to run," she said.
The police escalated this situation by performing an unnecessary action.
 
2014-07-17 05:07:13 PM  

redmid17: jst3p: redmid17: I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. If you have the friends, you can get a name, probably an address.

You really think so?

I imagine it would work out like this:

"What was that young ladies name"
"Who?"
"The girl that walked away?"
"What girl are you talking about?"
"The girl in the white top and jean shorts, said she was going to get her bag and come back here remember?"
"Oh we don't know her, just met her tonight. I think her name is Jane or something."

Well considering that the police officers are empowered to take those kids to a curfew location center, they have a bit of leverage there.

"Okay, well since you don't know her, we'll have to take you to the detention facility for your parents to pick her up."

It shouldn't be difficult for an adult with any mental faculties to outsmart a teenager



Why bother when you have the chance to tackle one and get away with it?
 
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