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(Courthouse News Service)   Just because you forked over $45,000 to a culinary school does not mean that upon graduation you immediately get to be a head chef at any restaurant you desire   (courthousenews.com) divider line 95
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3207 clicks; posted to Business » on 16 Jul 2014 at 8:31 AM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-16 02:41:53 AM  
Plaintiffs are pissing up a rope as it is oft said.
 
2014-07-16 03:33:37 AM  
Step 1: Tell young adults they're not mature enough to make sound life decisions, encourage them to incur crippling debt in order to go to college.
Step 2: Wonder out loud why young adults made unsound life decisions and incurred crippling debt in order to go to college.
Step 3: farking lol
 
2014-07-16 04:21:59 AM  
FTFA: defendant's promises.. half baked...

Well, there's your problem.
 
2014-07-16 07:35:16 AM  
Well, there is that show on Food Network where home cooks make 3 entrees for the owner of a 5-star restaurant while Anne Burrell yells at them, and the winner get a job as head chef.  Maybe they should have just gone on that.
 
2014-07-16 08:10:27 AM  
It depends on the school.

In fairness, I pretty much ignore Johnson and Wales graduates, unless they have experience before going to culinary. They turn out very good restaurant managers, but their culinary grads tend to be more suited for cruise lines. The placements they get for practical experience tend to be idealized, and have little to do with what they will face in the real world, and it does their grads little benefit. New England Culinary turns out solid grads--they get placements for their practicals in solid restaurants, that experience not only high volume, but often under difficult circumstances. I have yet to find many New England Culinary grads who don't take curve balls well, and who have a solid understanding of the profession. CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance. Smaller and more local culinary programs, I tend to look at their actual experience, and I have to feel them out before hiring them, and in all honesty, their culinary school experience only means that they are generally only a step up from hiring a kid off the street.

I didn't go to culinary school. Everything I know came from working with chefs, good and bad. And the bad chefs were an education, and I treasure those experiences, because they taught me important things. The things were what to avoid, and that is important in this business. I've worked with amazingly poor chefs, and each time, they made me a better chef by their example. Some of them went to some impressive European schools, and while they had skills in the kitchen that were amazing, their organizational skills weren't a measure of the training they got, but how quickly one can abandon good practices when given the big chair. The great chefs I've worked with, all had similar traits. They worked their own kitchens. They were disciplined and organized. They had skills, and beyond that, they had imagination and a love for their own lines. They were generous in their ability to teach, and generous in their ability to let go of the reins a bit, and let folks try things. That has been a huge influence upon me. A bad chef will bring down the entire place, but it can stay afloat if the line chefs are solid. A great chef will elevate the whole kitchen by their example and leadership.

The one thing that a lot culinary grads have in common, is an under appreciation for the skill sets that their fellow cooks have. Some the greatest teachers I've had, never went to culinary. They were line cooks, who came up in kitchens, and their skills were won by repetition and practice. Yes, the old men in the back. The old women in the back. They are a resource that a lot of young chefs ignore, and you cannot beat experience. A lot of these cooks don't have the breadth of skill sets that a culinary grad has, nor the education in a variety of techniques, but they have solid experience behind them that is invaluable in kitchens. Baking. Sauces. Meats. Fish. You watch the older guys and gals, and you see impressive technique that has been gotten by hard work and experience, and that is something you draw on.

Sadly, there are a lot of schools out there that make a lot of claims. In America, you look to CIA, you look to Johnson and Wales, and look to New England Culinary. Those are the only three schools that have any real weight. The rest, may give you a background, but you need the experience. You need the blooding of actual line experience, and a LOT of culinary grads figure that they will simply step into the chef's role upon graduation, and without the experience, without the education in how restaurants actually work, they're useless. I recently did a stage with a small farm to table place up the road--a couple of years ago recent--and the chef was making Hollandaise for a busy brunch by hand, in a mixing bowl. On the line. And it took frippin' forever. And it was wasteful in time and resources. It looked impressive to the staff, and the owners, because he talked a good game. Young guy, full of himself, and I didn't return his calls afterward, because it wasn't the sort of wasteful environment that I wanted to be in. He wanted a young crew to impress, not cook for the public. And that is what a lot of culinary grads want. They want the instant respect, but the title chef isn't one that is easy to fill. It takes hard work, it takes discipline, and it takes skill. That doesn't mean that there aren't young chefs who don't deserve the big chair. There are some talented folks out there, but the ones who are worth the title, they got it by doing the hard work necessary to understand how kitchens operate, and they have respect that they've earned. You need to earn that respect, and fresh out of culinary, without real experience, is damn useless for leading cooks. We're not an easy lot. If we've lasted a while in the industry, we have scars. Mental and physical. A fresh faced grad who is full of theory and impressed with the number of ways he can do eggs, doesn't impress us. A kid who grew up in his father's restaurant, or his aunt or mother's joint, and then went to culinary to bring back skills and depth of experience? That is far better, because there is likewise experience and a nuts and bolts aspect of knowing how kitchens run. Without that experience, you're just a kid who has a piece of paper, and a middling knowledge of how things work, and that means, yeah, $12 an hour, and cut MOAR ribeyes.
 
2014-07-16 08:19:14 AM  

hubiestubert: It depends on the school.


College is just an introduction to the topic you're planning on going into. It's never a rocket unless you're a genius going in, though having a third-party certification on top of the standard piece of paper helps.
 
2014-07-16 08:38:22 AM  
The lawsuit continues: "Being a chef is hard work, but becoming a chef is even harder. The recipe for success usually requires years of dedication and arduous work, at low pay, before kitchen staff employees are given the opportunity to rise up through the ranks. And, even with tons of discipline and all the right skills, there is usually no guarantee that no one will attain such a high-level position."

Despite knowing that you paid the $45,000 anyway.  If something sounds too good to be true, if often is.  If it's going to cost you $45K to find out, it's time to do a bit more research than what their website says.

Fine, go with the lawsuit and if you win so much the better.  If you can prove it was false advertising as opposed to what is allowed to qualify as advertising, great.  Share in the culpability though.  "My bad.  The thought of circumventing reality for big dollars clouded my judgement"
 
2014-07-16 08:42:54 AM  

hubiestubert: I pretty much ignore Johnson and Wales graduates, unless they have experience before going to culinary. They turn out very good restaurant managers, but their culinary grads tend to be more suited for cruise lines. The placements they get for practical experience tend to be idealized, and have little to do with what they will face in the real world, and it does their grads little benefit. New England Culinary turns out solid grads--they get placements for their practicals in solid restaurants, that experience not only high volume, but often under difficult circumstances. I have yet to find many New England Culinary grads who don't take curve balls well, and who have a solid understanding of the profession. CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance



THIS
 
2014-07-16 08:47:04 AM  
Before spending big bucks on tech school, ask people who do the actual hiring of people in your field what schools they like and don't like and some basic career advice.
 
2014-07-16 08:48:11 AM  
There's a precedent for this. Le Cordon Bleu had a class action lawsuit a few years back regarding false promises in job placement. Wish I'd known about it before my husband got his degree in baking and patisserie there. Now he's a highly educated factory worker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-rippe d- off_n_950107.html
 
2014-07-16 08:52:28 AM  

hubiestubert: It depends on the school.


Fascinating read, thanks for that.  Out of curiosity, what's your take on the movie Chef?
 
2014-07-16 08:53:28 AM  
Is the Olive Garden Culinary Institute of Tuscany any count?
 
2014-07-16 08:54:42 AM  

I_Am_Weasel: The lawsuit continues: "Being a chef is hard work, but becoming a chef is even harder. The recipe for success usually requires years of dedication and arduous work, at low pay, before kitchen staff employees are given the opportunity to rise up through the ranks. And, even with tons of discipline and all the right skills, there is usually no guarantee that no one will attain such a high-level position."

Despite knowing that you paid the $45,000 anyway.  If something sounds too good to be true, if often is.  If it's going to cost you $45K to find out, it's time to do a bit more research than what their website says.

Fine, go with the lawsuit and if you win so much the better.  If you can prove it was false advertising as opposed to what is allowed to qualify as advertising, great.  Share in the culpability though.  "My bad.  The thought of circumventing reality for big dollars clouded my judgement"


It's always sad when I see folks who shell out the cash for a culinary education, and then realize once they get in, that they aren't cut out for the life. And that's what it is. It's a life, not just a job. It's hard work, it's a craft as well as an art, and thinking that it's "just a job" doesn't prepare folks for that.

It's hot. It's stressful. It's essentially living in a place, and dealing with a particular kind of folk. It has its ups and downs, and it is equal parts craft and business. You aren't honing your skills, and aren't trying new things, it's just a grind that will crush the spirit from you. And a lot of folks simply don't get that. They aren't cut out for it, and haven't the mindset going in, and think that it's all parties and afterhours and waitresses throwing their panties at you, while the public lauds your efforts. And while that does occasionally happen, the in between work is hard, and the high portions of the show are balanced by some damn low points, where you're crushed by tickets piling up, distributors that fail you, and somehow, you've got to salvage things to make a fickle public happy. You can't trust a cook who's the middle of a busy night, with a clean coat--unless he just changed to make rounds in the dining room. Which if you've a lick of sense, you keep a couple of clean ones on hand, if that's part of the duties. At Glenndale Arena, I kept at least three, because I had to tour the various lines under my supervision, and that meant being out in the public, and you can't be seen as being hurried or stressed, because that transfers to the public perception. It has to look effortless for their comfort. Even if you just threw a coat that was stained from a bin of soup sloshing around in a basket, and wiped down with a towel, wiped your face off with another, and slicked back your hair and threw a new coat on, and your sous or assistant is cleaning up behind you, while you go over to the action station to give them a hand, because they just called out for help, and the guys in the pizza kitchen need more dough and supplies, and the service elevator is apparently being used for garbage detail and won't be back up for fifteen minutes--which, in kitchen terms during service is FOREVER.

It's rewarding. I wouldn't do it otherwise. But it's not easy, and some folks aren't cut out for the life, and it's always sad to see folks dump huge amounts of cash into an education that isn't going to do them a damn bit of good. One of the best sauciers I've ever worked with is now a mechanic. He loves it. He should have gone to another tech school, because he loves engines and he loves making cars purr, but he thought he wanted to be a chef, and once he got into the business, he realized his mistake, and now he's working in a shop to pay off his debt, and dreaming of the day he can open his own, which ain't going to be for a while thanks to the school loans.
 
2014-07-16 08:56:47 AM  
Larry Grabovan?  Daniel Oglander?

Are these real names?
 
2014-07-16 09:11:24 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Larry Grabovan?  Daniel Oglander?

Are these real names?


They even voted in the election for Sideshow bob.
 
2014-07-16 09:12:57 AM  

I_Am_Weasel: Fine, go with the lawsuit and if you win so much the better. If you can prove it was false advertising as opposed to what is allowed to qualify as advertising, great. Share in the culpability though. "My bad. The thought of circumventing reality for big dollars clouded my judgement"


"Sure, I lied to him. But it wouldn't have worked if he wasn't so greedy. So in a way, it's his fault."
It doesn't sound implausible to me that you could spend a few years at cooking school and be an expert at putting shiat in the oven and remembering to take it out again. Maybe stirring up some stuff in a bowl every now and then, and ignoring the British cockwad yelling at you. I'm sure there's other stuff involved in being a chef, but I'm also sure they have plenty of time to cover those things as well.
 
2014-07-16 09:16:11 AM  

Rapmaster2000: Larry Grabovan?  Daniel Oglander?

Are these real names?


....asks Rapmaster2000....
 
2014-07-16 09:27:28 AM  
I hate it when you earn a degree and then can't get a decent job.

Hey, I know:  Let's make this illegal!
 
2014-07-16 09:29:26 AM  

hubiestubert: It's rewarding.


Plus if there is anywhere in any town where one can get good drugs, it is in the kitchens of the popular restaurants.

(has family in the business...not institute grads, but long years on the line).
 
2014-07-16 09:34:06 AM  
What a Daniel Oglander might look like..

www.mynameishoratiobaltz.com
 
2014-07-16 09:35:24 AM  

lackadaisicalfreakshow: There's a precedent for this. Le Cordon Bleu had a class action lawsuit a few years back regarding false promises in job placement. Wish I'd known about it before my husband got his degree in baking and patisserie there. Now he's a highly educated factory worker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-rippe d- off_n_950107.html


And when he brings the donuts to work, he BRINGS THE DONUTS!
 
2014-07-16 09:41:57 AM  

hubiestubert: You can't trust a cook who's the middle of a busy night, with a clean coat


I worked for a chef who did not have that lick of sense to keep a clean one handy.
Fortunately for him, I was a clean worker. (That's what those towels hanging from my apron are for)
and he would borrow mine. I would stand there without a tunic and the waitresses did not mind a bit.

It's possible to not be a slob if you are efficient and keep your mise en place and work in a place with fueng shui in it's design. I was fortunate enough to have carte blanche on the pantry design, as garde manger when they did the entire restaurant over. They handed me the catalogs and said "pick what you need to make it work"
I was fairly stunned, having worked my way up and not been a culinary grad, but I got what I needed. One of the biggest things was making sure the prep fridge had four doors and they were glass. So the wait staff could see walking by when we were low on anything. The lobster killing station was one of those rubbermaid roller carts with a hole to catch juices and a five gallon bucket under it to catch the mess. I kept the pantry clean as could be, even though I wasn't expected to clean it up after the shift, they had the dish washers do that. I even volunteered to do the employee meals and made them attractive and presentable, unlike the previous chefs who did that chore. By endearing myself to the wait staff, I got better treatment when it came to getting my after shift complimentary cocktail. I hated to quit that job, but I went into business for myself and was making more money working for me than for the restaurant's owners.
 
2014-07-16 09:42:20 AM  
Wait a minute - $45,000 for 6 to 9 months worth of classes?
Holy fark...

I can understand why the guys suing feel ripped off, but for that kind of money I think i would have taken the time to research the school and its placement rates and things like that.
But these guys got taken by a smooth sales pitch and are now trying to blame somebody else for it.
 
2014-07-16 09:51:50 AM  

hubiestubert: It depends on the school.

In fairness, I pretty much ignore Johnson and Wales graduates, unless they have experience before going to culinary. They turn out very good restaurant managers, but their culinary grads tend to be more suited for cruise lines. The placements they get for practical experience tend to be idealized, and have little to do with what they will face in the real world, and it does their grads little benefit. New England Culinary turns out solid grads--they get placements for their practicals in solid restaurants, that experience not only high volume, but often under difficult circumstances. I have yet to find many New England Culinary grads who don't take curve balls well, and who have a solid understanding of the profession. CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance. Smaller and more local culinary programs, I tend to look at their actual experience, and I have to feel them out before hiring them, and in all honesty, their culinary school experience only means that they are generally only a step up from hiring a kid off the street.

I didn't go to culinary school. Everything I know came from working with chefs, good and bad. And the bad chefs were an education, and I treasure those experiences, because they taught me important things. The things were what to avoid, and that is important in this business. I've worked with amazingly poor chefs, and each time, they made me a better chef by their example. Some of them went to some impressive European schools, and while they had skills in the kitchen that were amazing, their organizational skills weren't a measure of the training they got, but how quickly one can abandon good practices when given the big chair. The great chefs I've worked with, all had similar traits. They worked their own kitchens. They were disciplined and organized. They had skills, and beyond that, they had imagination and a love for their own lines. They were ge ...


Hubie, my daughter wants to get into culinary work after (during) high school. Mind if I repost this somewhere she can see it?
 
2014-07-16 09:53:49 AM  
The wife has one of these degrees.  She graduated and found out she hates line work and then she goes and marries a man with a simple pallet.  What a marooon.  She really has two skills that she uses.  One is her knife work.... I could watch her break down produce, it is amazing.  The other is the Wilton short she took and now segwayed into doing custom cakes, it pays well though the per hour sucks.
 
2014-07-16 09:57:31 AM  
My brother went to a state technical college 2 year culinary school program, (which was very cheap BTW) he then spent the next 10 years working crappy hours for shiatty pay, then out of nowhere an amazing job offer for a very nice paycheck.  You have to pay your dues as a chef.
 
2014-07-16 09:58:14 AM  
Serious.

Serious profession.
 
2014-07-16 09:58:29 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: lackadaisicalfreakshow: There's a precedent for this. Le Cordon Bleu had a class action lawsuit a few years back regarding false promises in job placement. Wish I'd known about it before my husband got his degree in baking and patisserie there. Now he's a highly educated factory worker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-rippe d- off_n_950107.html

And when he brings the donuts to work, he BRINGS THE DONUTS!


There was a period of time where I wasn't working yet after we moved, so all we had to eat was what he brought home from school. So we'd have the equivalent of a $20 loaf of artisinal focaccia bread he'd made that day... and tap water. The man has skills, but in a metro that has a glut of LCB grads as well as kitchen-minded civvies, they don't bother to pay more than 8/hr for entry level bakers. So when we found out our daughter was on the way, he left the kitchens and went back to the factory for close to double the pay. He hates it, but it pays the bills.
 
2014-07-16 10:05:12 AM  

hubiestubert: CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance


Probably because CIA requires a certain number of years working in a kitchen before you can apply.  They want only people who know what the job is about to join their school, not just any schmuck.
 
2014-07-16 10:12:10 AM  

Slives: Wait a minute - $45,000 for 6 to 9 months worth of classes?
Holy fark...

I can understand why the guys suing feel ripped off, but for that kind of money I think i would have taken the time to research the school and its placement rates and things like that.
But these guys got taken by a smooth sales pitch and are now trying to blame somebody else for it.


You think that's bad, you should go to the Art Institute, my daughter was showing an interest in the fashoin design course and I was thinking 30-45, nah they wanted 90k for a degree


Took the syllabus and showed her which classes she could take from the local community colleges to go that for a fraction of the cost
 
2014-07-16 10:17:43 AM  

Joe Peanut: hubiestubert: CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance

Probably because CIA requires a certain number of years working in a kitchen before you can apply.  They want only people who know what the job is about to join their school, not just any schmuck.


One of my high school friends went there, and landed a job straight out, making like $60k. This was back in the early nineties when $60k was decent money for south jersey. CIA worked for him, and yes he had been a line cook for a few years and got decent grades in high school.

What didn't work for him was the amount of cocaine and vodka to which he became accustomed.
 
2014-07-16 10:27:56 AM  

lackadaisicalfreakshow: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: lackadaisicalfreakshow: There's a precedent for this. Le Cordon Bleu had a class action lawsuit a few years back regarding false promises in job placement. Wish I'd known about it before my husband got his degree in baking and patisserie there. Now he's a highly educated factory worker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-rippe d- off_n_950107.html

And when he brings the donuts to work, he BRINGS THE DONUTS!

There was a period of time where I wasn't working yet after we moved, so all we had to eat was what he brought home from school. So we'd have the equivalent of a $20 loaf of artisinal focaccia bread he'd made that day... and tap water. The man has skills, but in a metro that has a glut of LCB grads as well as kitchen-minded civvies, they don't bother to pay more than 8/hr for entry level bakers. So when we found out our daughter was on the way, he left the kitchens and went back to the factory for close to double the pay. He hates it, but it pays the bills.


Uh. Vitamin C?
 
2014-07-16 10:36:44 AM  
FTA

paying more than $45,000 for a six month program (nine months for night and weekend courses)


Great googly moogly!
 
2014-07-16 10:49:09 AM  

hubiestubert: Smaller and more local culinary programs, I tend to look at their actual experience, and I have to feel them out before hiring them


Pervert.
 
2014-07-16 10:51:04 AM  
When my buddy got out of J&W, he was pissed to find out I, a non culinary grad, was making more than he was.
Well, buddy, I have 4 more years of experience here, showing up on time, not calling in sick, and doing a great job, innovating because I learn in my off time. Who would you pay more?
 
2014-07-16 10:53:46 AM  
I own a small restaurant and when we're looking to fill a position I don't even get as far on the resume as "education". Don't give two shiats where you went to school. How much time have you spent cooking in a professional kitchen?

I'm the business end of my restaurant, not the chef end and while I'm a pretty good home cook, can whip up a meal for 4 or 5 friends out of whatever I have in the fridge on a moments notice, it's just not the same as cooking on the line. There a specific set of skills that you're not going to get any other way. Culinary school might teach you something about prep work but not a whole lot more.

It's too bad that so many kids get fooled by the sales pitch but just a little common sense would fix that. Do just a little research before you sign up to pay that $45k. Do you know anyone who works in a kitchen? Do they make the big bucks? Ask them what they think about culinary school.

In a way cooking is like just about any other artistic job, acting, painting, writing and so on. There are a very few who make a lot of money and a whole ton more who struggle to make ends meet.
 
2014-07-16 10:56:05 AM  
Students in the I.T. boot camp school I used to teach at:  "I'm going to become a network administrator and make $80,000 a year when I graduate from this place!"

Me:  "You're gonna work helpdesk, clean printers, rack servers after hours, and make $25,000 a year doing it just like everybody else that starts out in I.T."
 
2014-07-16 11:01:51 AM  

hubiestubert: and the chef was making Hollandaise for a busy brunch by hand, in a mixing bowl


i make my hollandaise by hand.  of course, i don't get paid for my cooking.  everytime i try one of those methods that normal humans use, i am very disappointed.  strangely, i know that every hollandaise that i have had, that i did not make, is made by shortcut, and they taste fine.  i guess i'm more of a critic to myself, or food just tastes better when you don't have to make it.  or, maybe mine really is better.  completely impractical for a restaurant.

(i don't mix it in a bowl, i mix in a small pan over low heat with a spoon - it requires constant folding and moving the pan around, but it turns out however you want it to turn out.  i like a big, fluffy hollandaise (if that's a way to describe it, the opposite of runny). the egg yolk from the poached eggs will mix with the hollandaise to make the perfection -- i only make hollandaise for poached eggs)

but, this all reminds me of a friend of mine who wants to open a bar.

he's a very successful business person, smart, all that crap.  he makes the best drinks i've ever had, and i live in the land of cocktails (actually, i think tales of the cocktail is going on right now).  all sorts of fancy stuff, shurbs, infusions, whatevers.

but, it takes 5 minutes for him to make a drink.  so, i told him, you may make the best drinks in the country (in my hypothetical argument).  but, work in a bar for a year or two before you think about opening one.  success in the service industry is not as obvious as you think it is.

/ what the fark do i know.  i was just some line cook at a breakfast/bakery place.  made a metric farkton of omelettes and still have dreams of the smell of croissants proofing.
 
2014-07-16 11:12:55 AM  

H31N0US: Joe Peanut: hubiestubert: CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance

Probably because CIA requires a certain number of years working in a kitchen before you can apply.  They want only people who know what the job is about to join their school, not just any schmuck.

One of my high school friends went there, and landed a job straight out, making like $60k. This was back in the early nineties when $60k was decent money for south jersey. CIA worked for him, and yes he had been a line cook for a few years and got decent grades in high school.


I went to an international high school here in NYC.  One of my best friends back then was this Japanese kid, son of a career diplomat, and he always wanted to be a chef.  He would often cook for the other students and the teachers, and his food creations where outstanding.  He graduated from an International Baccalaureate program, and could have gone to any university he wanted to.  But his mind was set to go to the CIA.  So this very bright and talented 17 year old kid, from a well to do family, went to work as a line cook at a tiny Japanese fast food joint in midtown Manhattan for a few years, sharing an apartment with other Japanese line cooks in a bad area of town known as Williamsburg.  Trust me, back in the mid-80s, Williamsburg was quite a scary place.  After a while, he got into the CIA.  That's the kind of dedication it takes, and why the people who graduate from there shine in the industry.

What didn't work for him was the amount of cocaine and vodka to which he became accustomed.

One of the drawbacks of the life.   Lots of professional chefs become addicts.  It is very hard work.

/wish I knew how to cook
//as the typical single guy in NYC, all I know how to make for dinner are reservations
 
2014-07-16 11:13:26 AM  

hubiestubert: and a LOT of culinary grads figure that they will simply step into the chef's role upon graduation


So, it's pretty much the same as graduates of any other discipline.

"I paid for school; I'm owed a job."
 
2014-07-16 11:13:35 AM  

lackadaisicalfreakshow: There's a precedent for this. Le Cordon Bleu had a class action lawsuit a few years back regarding false promises in job placement. Wish I'd known about it before my husband got his degree in baking and patisserie there. Now he's a highly educated factory worker.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/06/culinary-school-grads-rippe d- off_n_950107.html


If he is a patisserie he should go into the cupcake business. I hear there is a lot of money in that making specialty cupcakes. He can start off by making sour grape cupcakes for you.

/Zing!
 
2014-07-16 11:25:47 AM  

hubiestubert: CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance. Smaller and more local culinary programs,


Oh, lordy, where to begin?  How about the debacle that was Greystone?  Oh, yea, they really know what they are doing.  Several firms went out of business thanks to their skills.

Me?  I wrote 'em a proposal for the project, IIRC, it was a round number of $60K.  Ferdinand Metz, the big cheese had a conniption fit and called my Sr. VP at corporate about the balls I had to demand so much money.  The Sr. VP wrote down the proposal, scaled it back because the CIA was going to provide "All of the critical documentation for us" and cut the proposal back to something like $20K.  Several YEARS of trying to please these clowns, my final bill, with all the extra services they needed was submitted.  Total fee paid?  $61,000.  And we ended up being the only consultant not sued...

When you do Value Engineering, the idea is to reduce the cost of the project - we did it three times on the project, taking out the same money every time.

Plus, they wanted this fancy French cooking suites, which had never been installed west of the Mississippi before.  And were not UL listed or AGA approved.  Fun.

They brought in Adam Tihany to design the restaurant and their designer did a pencil cost estimate, looked up with a big smile and said "Wow, that's a new record!".  I wanted to stuff a roll of bumwad down this throat and stab him in the ears with his Koh-I-Noor....

One of the only clients I was GLAD never called me back.
 
2014-07-16 11:32:03 AM  
When I worked for a small state university, we'd often get flack from members of the state legislature and the local Chamber of Commerce for advertising. We offered many of the same degree programs as the for-profit schools but at a fraction of the cost. The for-profit schools knew they couldn't stop us from offering legit accredited programs but they wanted to beat us by out advertising us. Your average twenty something who wasn't a good student in high school and is now working a dead end job is an easy mark for the for-profit schools. A state school, even one that requires only a high school diploma or GED to get in, is intimidating. Advertising focused on letting them know what programs we offered and showing the process for getting started helped many students make use of the public school without going 50K or more in debt.
 
2014-07-16 11:34:49 AM  
SordidEuphemism:

Hey man, the best thing your daughter could do is hook up with a small non-chain restaurant and start at the bottom.  Bussing tables, washing dishes, prep, "Third cook", etc.  You work your way up, learn as you go.

If she's any good and likes the work, she'll find out then and you know if it's worth the money to go on formally.

Restaurant experience is good for ya even if it's not a career - I believe everyone should do it at least once - the service industry...

Schools can teach you the finer points but no school will teach you how to be fast and efficient in a kitchen..and safe.
 
2014-07-16 11:44:41 AM  

hubiestubert: It depends on the school.

In fairness, I pretty much ignore Johnson and Wales graduates, unless they have experience before going to culinary. They turn out very good restaurant managers, but their culinary grads tend to be more suited for cruise lines. The placements they get for practical experience tend to be idealized, and have little to do with what they will face in the real world, and it does their grads little benefit. New England Culinary turns out solid grads--they get placements for their practicals in solid restaurants, that experience not only high volume, but often under difficult circumstances. I have yet to find many New England Culinary grads who don't take curve balls well, and who have a solid understanding of the profession. CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas. I have yet to find a CIA grad who isn't capable in nearly any circumstance. Smaller and more local culinary programs, I tend to look at their actual experience, and I have to feel them out before hiring them, and in all honesty, their culinary school experience only means that they are generally only a step up from hiring a kid off the street.

I didn't go to culinary school. Everything I know came from working with chefs, good and bad. And the bad chefs were an education, and I treasure those experiences, because they taught me important things. The things were what to avoid, and that is important in this business. I've worked with amazingly poor chefs, and each time, they made me a better chef by their example. Some of them went to some impressive European schools, and while they had skills in the kitchen that were amazing, their organizational skills weren't a measure of the training they got, but how quickly one can abandon good practices when given the big chair. The great chefs I've worked with, all had similar traits. They worked their own kitchens. They were disciplined and organized. They had skills, and beyond that, they had imagination and a love for their own lines. They were ge ...


Do you realize that this applies to almost every profession? I don't like hiring kids right out of college unless it is into our purpose built program for grooming new talent. I realize that not all companies can do this. The few that I have had to work with right out of school think they know everything and have to be taught that they don't know anything at all about real world problems. Understanding the theoritical method for handling a problem doesn't mean that you'll have the capability to do it in crunch time. The ones that come in complaining that the work they are given is intern type work are the ones that get replaced by interns very shortly. If I can't trust you to do the basics right why should I trust you with a multi million dollar project. I want to see you work on something that you don't like to get a feel for how seriously you take your job. If you prove that you can be trusted then more work with higher difficulty factors will be given to you, but you have to prove it to me first. This is the method that I use and have seen used my whole life no matter what line of work I was in at the time.
 
2014-07-16 11:46:55 AM  
I kind of get the plaintiffs point. They aren't expecting to be head chefs, but were told that a degree would help them skip over the grunt-work jobs in the kitchens.

Its as if after graduating law school the only job you could get is mopping the courthouse floors, or going to West Point only to graduate at the rank of an enlisted private.
 
2014-07-16 11:54:32 AM  

LemSkroob: I kind of get the plaintiffs point. They aren't expecting to be head chefs, but were told that a degree would help them skip over the grunt-work jobs in the kitchens.

Its as if after graduating law school the only job you could get is mopping the courthouse floors, or going to West Point only to graduate at the rank of an enlisted private.


Basically the argument seems "We could have gotten the same jobs we eventually got without the cost of the school"  Basically the school gave them nothing but a bill.
 
2014-07-16 11:55:18 AM  

hubiestubert:  CIA? They turn out f*cking ninjas.



Cousin of mine went to the CIA. Got onto one of those cooking shows and did well (made it a good way thru). Now hes the Exec Chef of his own place. Nothing famous, but good high quality food and good business. Hes only 30. Not a bad career so far.


Some of the best eating can be had up the Hudson, as many local restaurants have former/current CIA members on staff.
 
2014-07-16 11:57:25 AM  

EngineerAU: When I worked for a small state university, we'd often get flack from members of the state legislature and the local Chamber of Commerce for advertising. We offered many of the same degree programs as the for-profit schools but at a fraction of the cost. The for-profit schools knew they couldn't stop us from offering legit accredited programs but they wanted to beat us by out advertising us. Your average twenty something who wasn't a good student in high school and is now working a dead end job is an easy mark for the for-profit schools. A state school, even one that requires only a high school diploma or GED to get in, is intimidating. Advertising focused on letting them know what programs we offered and showing the process for getting started helped many students make use of the public school without going 50K or more in debt.


This, so much this.

Every community college around here has seen their enrollment fall dramatically over the last 10-15 years just because of this. The for profit schools have an advertising budget that they can't match, and they use it well to convince students that their program can be easily completed at no cost to them because of financial aid. And as a result many of the community colleges have dropped programs due to lack of enrollment because the for profits, many of which open up down the block or across the street from the CC's campus, have lured away students with their bombardment of advertising. It is really sad. The good news is that if you graduate from a CC that still offers technical programs with a technical degree, electrical, HVAC, automotive, radiology, medical, etc, around here you will find a job very quickly because, except for a few schools, the for profit degree's aren't accepted. And because of the for profit's take over of those programs, most of the people trying to get into those fields with technical degrees are from for profits, so the people who went to a CC are in high demand.
 
2014-07-16 12:08:27 PM  
Every time I see CIA in this thread, I think of:

media1.s-nbcnews.com
 
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