Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Atlantic)   No   (theatlantic.com) divider line 172
    More: Obvious, Hobby Lobby, Thomas More, morality, public sphere, burqas, Jonathan Rauch, bigotry, religious pluralism  
•       •       •

6106 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Jul 2014 at 8:05 AM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



172 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-07-14 05:41:57 AM  
Imma parse this a bit.

No one cares what you believe.  Is Evangelical morality still acceptable in the US?  Sure it's acceptable, as long as you don't try and foist it off on everyone else.  Then it's annoying and ain't no one got time for dat shiat.

But you are free to believe what you want, just like everyone else.
 
2014-07-14 07:31:41 AM  
Not sure which question subby is referring to.

Is Evangelical Morality Still Acceptable in America?

Yes.  (See Ambivalence)

Are some Christians being unfairly shamed out of the public sphere?

No.  If you take a public stance on a public issue, expect a public response.  That is not "shaming."
 
2014-07-14 07:45:16 AM  
FTFA: Instead, there is a fear that in an increasingly secularized society, there will be less tolerance for people who wish to act upon their deeply held religious beliefs, except in narrowly defined, privatized spaces.

You mean that narrowly defined, privatized space known as the national stage they get every time they throw a tantrum?
 
2014-07-14 07:56:46 AM  
If your faith is so shaky or the God you worship so vindictive that baking a cake for a gay wedding imperils your soul, then maybe it's time to convert...
 
2014-07-14 08:07:48 AM  
You mean people won't be able to inflict laws upon others based purely on their religious beliefs, they will have to come up with a secular reason to justify the law like everyone else has to?

/oh noes
 
2014-07-14 08:15:20 AM  

Ambivalence: Imma parse this a bit.

No one cares what you believe.  Is Evangelical morality still acceptable in the US?  Sure it's acceptable, as long as you don't try and foist it off on everyone else.  Then it's annoying and ain't no one got time for dat shiat.

But you are free to believe what you want, just like everyone else.


Truth.

Of course, the US Evangelical movements are frantically trying to foist it off on the rest of us before the demographics completely shift against them
 
2014-07-14 08:16:00 AM  
"WAH! Stop calling me out when I act like a total asshole. You're persecuting me for my beliefs!"
 
2014-07-14 08:18:33 AM  
I can't read about evangelicals without thinking about Jesus Camp.


33.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-07-14 08:22:24 AM  

Ambivalence: Is Evangelical morality still acceptable in the US? Sure it's acceptable, as long as you don't try and foist it off on everyone else.


Difficulty: foisting it on everyone else is an indelible part their "morality."

=Smidge=
 
2014-07-14 08:23:43 AM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: Not sure which question subby is referring to.

Is Evangelical Morality Still Acceptable in America?

Yes.  (See Ambivalence)

Are some Christians being unfairly shamed out of the public sphere?

No.  If you take a public stance on a public issue, expect a public response.  That is not "shaming."


THIS. It's totally your right to wear a neon glowing codpiece in public, but you really can't complain when we all point and laugh at you.

And that's something that Evangelicals refuse to understand- A lot of times their beliefs are openly mocked. No, the Earth ISN'T 6000 years old. No, a woman cannot "Shut that down". No, global warming is not a myth and it's man-made. No, gay people getting married isn't going to effect my marriage at all. No, your ten commandments don't need to be all over public buildings. When we point and laugh, we are not "Opressing Christianity", we are letting you know that we find your beliefs extremely funny and you need to thicken your skin a bit.
 
2014-07-14 08:24:28 AM  
Evangelism was never acceptable in America. That's why the fundies are always trying to impose their morality on the population through force of law.
 
2014-07-14 08:24:30 AM  
[...]there will be less tolerance for people who wish to act upon their deeply held religious beliefs, except in narrowly defined, privatized spaces.


Yes.
 
2014-07-14 08:26:00 AM  
i204.photobucket.com
 
2014-07-14 08:27:58 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-07-14 08:29:06 AM  
Jeez what a bunch of god-hating libs... can we get some sidehugs up in here (the christian kind of course)?
 
2014-07-14 08:29:31 AM  
Ask some Catholics around here if they are Christian and the answer they'll give is no. The reason they do so isn't ignorance, but rather an attempt to distance themselves from the crazy. Evangelicals have taken over the name Christian to the point that the founders of Christianity don't want to have anything to do with them.
 
2014-07-14 08:29:38 AM  
Evangelical morality has always been acceptable as long as you don't expect anyone to take it seriously. I've lived in the supposed Bible Belt a lot of my life. Trust me, there's a reason they try to make laws against farking and drinking and divorcing and farking across color lines. No one will listen if you just ask them to stop.
 
2014-07-14 08:30:29 AM  

gilatrout: Ask some Catholics around here if they are Christian and the answer they'll give is no. The reason they do so isn't ignorance, but rather an attempt to distance themselves from the crazy. Evangelicals have taken over the name Christian to the point that the founders of Christianity don't want to have anything to do with them.


Did... did you just call Catholics the founders of Christianity?
 
2014-07-14 08:31:09 AM  

TV's Vinnie: Evangelism was never acceptable in America. That's why the fundies are always trying to impose their morality on the population through force of law.


Really? I thought one of our country's creation myths involved a group fundies* so extreme that they were thrown out of England and came here to practice their freedom of religion?

/*though I'm sure there's overlap, I'm not sure that all evangelicals are necessarily fundamentalists and vice versa
 
2014-07-14 08:35:23 AM  
Let's compromise: you can keep "love thy neighbour", "do unto others" and "judge not lest ye be judged", but you have to ditch "gays are evil", "contraception is a sin" and "evolution is a lie from the pit of hell".
 
2014-07-14 08:40:12 AM  
 
2014-07-14 08:41:02 AM  
"The refusal to serve gay weddings is called bigotry."

Does this really happen. I mean, not the refusal part, I get that that can happen. But do gay people actually seek out gay-hating churches and force them to hold their ceremonies?  I know of at least two gay-supportive Christian congregations in my area and I'm not in some super libby-lib area (but then again, I'm not in an ultra derpy-derp area either).
 
2014-07-14 08:41:19 AM  
The refusal to serve gay weddings is called bigotry.

It is.

Laws written to protect businesses that refuse to provide such services are compared to Jim Crow laws.

They are.

Hobby Lobby's unwillingness to pay for certain contraceptives is derided as misogynistic.

Probably not.  They started their lawsuit because a conservative think tank suggested that if they convert from believing it was OK for so-called abortafacients to be part of their employees health care to being a sin, then they could sue to overturn the PPACA.  Their case is less built on Christianity or morality and more on blind hatred of all things Obama.  Although it is important to note that the effects of their lawsuit will only be felt by women.
 
2014-07-14 08:41:33 AM  

Fark like a Barsoomian: gilatrout: Ask some Catholics around here if they are Christian and the answer they'll give is no. The reason they do so isn't ignorance, but rather an attempt to distance themselves from the crazy. Evangelicals have taken over the name Christian to the point that the founders of Christianity don't want to have anything to do with them.

Did... did you just call Catholics the founders of Christianity?


Grr autocorrect.

I meant foundation. As in Catholics are part of the foundation of what is generally understood to be Christian.
 
2014-07-14 08:46:04 AM  
afeatheradrift.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-07-14 08:49:19 AM  

snowshovel: "The refusal to serve gay weddings is called bigotry."

Does this really happen. I mean, not the refusal part, I get that that can happen. But do gay people actually seek out gay-hating churches and force them to hold their ceremonies?  I know of at least two gay-supportive Christian congregations in my area and I'm not in some super libby-lib area (but then again, I'm not in an ultra derpy-derp area either).


What generally happens is that a gay couple calls up a bakery and says "Hey, can you make a wedding cake?  You can?  Great!"  Then they show up for a tasting, the owner sees that it's two guys instead of a hetero couple, and promptly throws them out.

Then they sue for discrimination.  And then a bunch of trolls say "Well, why would they want a cake baked by a bigot anyway?  Are they worried he'd spit in it?" because apparently they think that if you sue someone for discrimination you are legally barred from also taking your business elsewhere.

And the objections of bakers and photographers over providing good and services for gay couples are not based in religion.  It's based in homophobia.  If they truly turned away business that offended their beliefs then they would have also refused to bake a happy divorce cake, a pagan pentagram cake, a happy out-of-wedlock birth cake, and happy on the stem cells grant cake.

"Christian" objections to gay marriage are not based upon religion.  They did not go through the Bible and figured out what they should object too.  No, they decided that homosexuals shouldn't have equal rights and should be shunned, and then went through the Bible looking for an excuse.  They're blaming Jesus for their own bigotry.
 
2014-07-14 08:50:07 AM  

gilatrout: Fark like a Barsoomian: gilatrout: Ask some Catholics around here if they are Christian and the answer they'll give is no. The reason they do so isn't ignorance, but rather an attempt to distance themselves from the crazy. Evangelicals have taken over the name Christian to the point that the founders of Christianity don't want to have anything to do with them.

Did... did you just call Catholics the founders of Christianity?

Grr autocorrect.

I meant foundation. As in Catholics are part of the foundation of what is generally understood to be Christian.


I thought the Catholic Church did create the Christian religion. They certainly seem to have created the idea of worshipping a Jewish Rabbi as a God. Is there some history or fine distinction about the word "founder" that I'm missing?
 
2014-07-14 08:52:58 AM  
Can someone explain to me the difference between Evangelical Christians wanting laws based on their interpretation of a bronze age holy book and the concept of Sharia Law?
 
2014-07-14 08:53:38 AM  

mutterfark: Really? I thought one of our country's creation myths involved a group fundies* so extreme that they were thrown out of England and came here to practice their freedom of religion?


Take a guess on how they practiced their freedom of religion?

0.static.wix.com
 
2014-07-14 08:53:46 AM  
Evangelicals are deeply concerned that their right to force their religious views on you are being infringed upon. Apparently, forcible conversion of others to your views (and that is in essence what decisions such as Hobby Lobby are about--forcing employees to conform to their employers' moral standards) is a religious tenet among the evangelicals. Just like it is with Muslim extremists. But that's different, because...
 
2014-07-14 08:54:02 AM  

"How dare you not tolerate my intolerance!"

 
2014-07-14 08:54:09 AM  
But it's hard to ignore the implication that the only truly tolerable form of religion in the U.S. is a private one that comfortably aligns with the country's changing mores

But don't let that stop you from trying to ignore it anyway.
 
2014-07-14 08:54:37 AM  

gilatrout: Ask some Catholics around here if they are Christian and the answer they'll give is no.


Makes sense coming from an organization originally headed by St. Peter.
 
2014-07-14 08:54:51 AM  

i488.photobucket.com

 
2014-07-14 08:55:18 AM  
Yes... In the former Confederate States of America
 
2014-07-14 08:57:31 AM  

The Larch: gilatrout: Fark like a Barsoomian: gilatrout: Ask some Catholics around here if they are Christian and the answer they'll give is no. The reason they do so isn't ignorance, but rather an attempt to distance themselves from the crazy. Evangelicals have taken over the name Christian to the point that the founders of Christianity don't want to have anything to do with them.

Did... did you just call Catholics the founders of Christianity?

Grr autocorrect.

I meant foundation. As in Catholics are part of the foundation of what is generally understood to be Christian.

I thought the Catholic Church did create the Christian religion. They certainly seem to have created the idea of worshipping a Jewish Rabbi as a God. Is there some history or fine distinction about the word "founder" that I'm missing?


What I was trying to do, rather poorly it turns out, was to use the fact that some Catholics here are an example of how traditional Christians, not just Catholics, are uncomfortable with being labeled Christian because of the Evangelicals
 
2014-07-14 09:00:16 AM  

Karac: They started their lawsuit because a conservative think tank suggested that if they convert from believing it was OK for so-called abortafacients to be part of their employees health care to being a sin, then they could sue to overturn the PPACA.


it's important to remember that the ruling was not solely about abortiofacitents, they vacated certain rulings that looked at all 20 of the contraceptive methods to be reexamined post-hobby lobby
 
2014-07-14 09:00:36 AM  

TV's Vinnie: mutterfark: Really? I thought one of our country's creation myths involved a group fundies* so extreme that they were thrown out of England and came here to practice their freedom of religion?

Take a guess on how they practiced their freedom of religion?

[0.static.wix.com image 640x444]


That was my point. Yet we celebrate "The Pilgrims"(blessed be their name) with a holiday and gloss over the fact that they were insane. Isn't that why most sane people believe in the separation of church and state? You are free to believe whatever the hell you want, you're just not supposed to be allowed to inflict your beliefs on the rest of us.
 
2014-07-14 09:02:13 AM  

snowshovel: "The refusal to serve gay weddings is called bigotry."

Does this really happen. I mean, not the refusal part, I get that that can happen. But do gay people actually seek out gay-hating churches and force them to hold their ceremonies?  I know of at least two gay-supportive Christian congregations in my area and I'm not in some super libby-lib area (but then again, I'm not in an ultra derpy-derp area either).


I am not aware of any case where the hypothetical scenario you describe has happened.

I imagine if there was a Las Vegas style wedding chapel out there that advertised "we'll provide a wedding ceremony for anyone who shows up at our door and pays us $100", someone would probably have a case if they refused to provide a wedding ceremony for a same-sex marriage.

I doubt, though, that anyone would be able to successfully sue an actual church for refusing to provide a wedding ceremony for a same-sex marriage.
 
2014-07-14 09:03:24 AM  

TV's Vinnie: mutterfark: Really? I thought one of our country's creation myths involved a group fundies* so extreme that they were thrown out of England and came here to practice their freedom of religion?

Take a guess on how they practiced their freedom of religion?

[0.static.wix.com image 640x444]


that really shows that the cartoon posted by TV's Vinnie is right on the mark.
 
2014-07-14 09:04:00 AM  

poot_rootbeer: gilatrout: Ask some Catholics around here if they are Christian and the answer they'll give is no.

Makes sense coming from an organization originally headed by St. Peter.


What you did there, I see it.
 
2014-07-14 09:04:51 AM  

Smidge204: Ambivalence: Is Evangelical morality still acceptable in the US? Sure it's acceptable, as long as you don't try and foist it off on everyone else.

Difficulty: foisting it on everyone else is an indelible part their "morality."

=Smidge=


This. Go, therefor, and make disciples of all nations...

They just aren't flying planes into buildings or putting suicide vests on kids, but the command to subjugate the world is clear.
 
2014-07-14 09:05:37 AM  
If you want to follow that sort of behavioral code, then you just go right ahead.

If you try and make anyone that isn't you follow that sort of code, then you need a beat-down.
 
2014-07-14 09:05:38 AM  
Want to have fun with an Evangelical when he/she starts ranting about morality?

Just ask that person, "Define morality."

The ensuing convulsions and tap-dancing are entertaining and well worth the full price of admission.
 
2014-07-14 09:06:06 AM  
Is it possible to create a sort of Fundamentalist Christian Amsterdam? A sort of God and Guns Zone, if you will? We can designate certain areas where it's free to open carry and discriminate based on God (with the caveat anyone being discriminated against is free to leave at the age of 16 or military action will be taken). We could pick a few cities, or maybe even a state or two. And they would be free to ignore science, carry around guns in their hands, and have limited access to all sort of healthcare.

Sure, there would be some problems. Kids raised in those areas will have to take remedial courses before attending real colleges and universities. There would be violence as new schisms happened. There might be the odd gun fight as guys with guns in their hands walk into places with other guys with guns in there hands. But, the rest of us would be free to have a real civilization.
 
2014-07-14 09:07:06 AM  
"But the real debate isn't about whether morality should be public or private; it's about about figuring out what kind of moral impositions are tolerable and fair in a pluralistic society."
-FTA

If the debate has changed from "to what extent morality should be public or private" to "what kind of moral impositions are tolerable" then supporters of a secular society have already conceded a great deal. The former is a debate as to whether or not religion should have any social power while the latter is a debate on how much social power religion should have.

//Cheers
 
2014-07-14 09:07:40 AM  
Fundies control the Republican Party, the Supreme Court, the House of Representatives, several state legislatures and Fox "News".  For God's sake, guys, you are not being persecuted.  Being barred from persecuting others is not persecution.
 
2014-07-14 09:12:24 AM  

Flargan: If the debate has changed from "to what extent morality should be public or private" to "what kind of moral impositions are tolerable" then supporters of a secular society have already conceded a great deal. The former is a debate as to whether or not religion should have any social power while the latter is a debate on how much social power religion should have.


What do you mean by "social power"? Are you using that in the same sense as political or legal power?
 
2014-07-14 09:12:39 AM  

gilatrout: What I was trying to do, rather poorly it turns out, was to use the fact that some Catholics here are an example of how traditional Christians, not just Catholics, are uncomfortable with being labeled Christian because of the Evangelicals


Just go with Protestants vs. Papists.

//Cheers
 
MFK
2014-07-14 09:13:13 AM  

Elzar: Jeez what a bunch of god-hating libs... can we get some sidehugs up in here (the christian kind of course)?


This post is really illustrative of mindset of the author of TFA and more and more christians that I encounter. The vast majority of the posts in this thread have been "yeah, sure, do what ever you want. Just don't try to cram it down everyone else's throat or try to codify your beliefs in our laws" but to your ears it is "OMG WE ALL HATE TEH GOD!1!!"

Just because we don't buy into your particular brand of imaginary sky friend doesn't mean we hate you, god or christianity. We just don't want you to be able to use your "beliefs" in any way that discriminates or hurts other people.

You are not being persecuted for being a Christian. Nobody cares enough to persecute you. What you're seeing is pushback because you are trying to impose your particular set of beliefs on the rest of us. This is NOT persecution. Nobody is going to jail for being a Christian. Nobody is being fed to the lions. What is happening is that we're saying "stop trying to control us - it ain't gonna happen".
 
Displayed 50 of 172 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report