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(CNN)   If you attend a Christian university and decide to marry your lesbian partner, you best believe you will be expelled from school lickety split   (cnn.com) divider line 154
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5863 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2014 at 2:47 PM (11 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-13 03:29:16 PM

Mugato: TuteTibiImperes: I think it's an issue worth debating.  Would you feel the school is within its rights to expel a student for entering into an interracial marriage?  How is this any different?

It depends on what the student signs. This looks like a girl who found a way to get on CNN.


Not all contracts are enforceable.  Landlords can't enforce contracts that preclude the ability to use service animals, pre-nups that state 'you get nothing and like it' are routinely overturned, and employers can't require employees sign away certain rights in employment contracts.

Just because she signed it doesn't make it right.
 
2014-07-13 03:30:10 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Given that the student is held responsible for their own loans after they are through with school, I don't consider this federal funding.


You would be the only one.  While the student is the one responsible for paying it back, they don't actually give the money to the student.  The money is given to the university, who takes out the student's tuition and other fees.  If anything is left over, the student gets that back - but many universities put stipulations on even that.  for instance, some universities say that if you get financial aid, you have to buy your books from the university bookstore with the money (it is not uncommon to put the money in an account associated with the student that can only practically be used on campus).  If the government sent the individual student a check and said "We want receipts to show this was used for educational purposes", you might have a point.  But the university gets the money, and then gets to dictate the use of that money, pretty much as they wish.  And for that consideration, they have to agree to the rules the government sets, which includes that they can't be massive assholes for shiats and giggles.
 
2014-07-13 03:39:32 PM

HMS_Blinkin: Similarly, this woman was gay before she attended the university, but she nonetheless signed (as an adult) a contract saying she wouldn't be gay (and I'm sure a lot of other BS as well) as a condition of attending the school.  She broke a contract that she signed.  I don't like the rule, and I don't like the contract, but she signed it.  She had the chance to go to one of many, MANY other colleges that wouldn't have made her sign any "covenant."  And even then, she had a chance to put off getting married until after graduation.


She may not have known she was gay when she signed and enrolled.  A lot of people, especially those who grow up in religious households, suppress those feelings and get pretty good at lying to themselves until they're out living on their own and suddenly the walls fall down.

The big issue is whether or not a school should have the right to require students to sign contracts that essentially deny homosexual students equal rights.
If the school had a blanket 'no marriage' policy it would be one thing, but a policy that discriminates only against homosexual marriage is different.

Using your golf course example if the course had a 'no hats' policy that was enforced equally towards all members that would probably be OK.  Specifically targeting yarmulkes would step over the line.
 
2014-07-13 03:39:38 PM

HMS_Blinkin: Doesn't Augusta still not allow women?


Condi Rice is a member.
 
2014-07-13 03:40:36 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Mugato: TuteTibiImperes: I think it's an issue worth debating.  Would you feel the school is within its rights to expel a student for entering into an interracial marriage?  How is this any different?

It depends on what the student signs. This looks like a girl who found a way to get on CNN.

Not all contracts are enforceable.  Landlords can't enforce contracts that preclude the ability to use service animals, pre-nups that state 'you get nothing and like it' are routinely overturned, and employers can't require employees sign away certain rights in employment contracts.

Just because she signed it doesn't make it right.


I don't think it's right (morally), but the contract is probably valid (IANAL though).  Loads of religiously-affiliated colleges exist, and they virtually all have "morality" rules like this, which can vary in terms of how silly they are.  Wheaton College in Illinois, for example, had rules against co-ed dancing up until about 2005 (I think).  I heard it wasn't really enforced there, but it was never challenged in any court that I know of, even though it could be said to have constrained students 1st amendment rights (dancing as a form of self-expression).  It seems that when you have adults who consent to these rules (and given that these adults have other educational options that don't include these rules), the rules turn out to be valid.
 
2014-07-13 03:41:55 PM

Saborlas: If you are the rich billionaire creating these whack-ass Christian universities, GO SH*T GLASS SHARDS, YOU SOCIAL SABOTEUR!


Holy shiat, I thought Kittypie had somehow posted outside the friendly green glow for a minute there.
 
2014-07-13 03:50:27 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.


Reminds me of an LBJ story:

Once Johnson landed at an Air Force base and a young officer directed the President over to a helicopter while saying, "Sir, your helicopter is over here." Johnson replied, "Son, they're all my helicopters."
 
2014-07-13 03:50:56 PM

Saborlas: If you attend a Christian university of your own volition, you deserve every bad thing they do to you. I'm fairly certain that many are not accredited by any reasonable organization (some are only accredited by organizations created specifically to accredit BS schools) and a degree from such a place is worthless. We're talking people who say that Pi is equal to three because the bible says so (I Kings 7:23-26, do the math). I wouldn't walk on a bridge designed by someone using the biblical value of Pi.

If your parents force you to attend a Christian university out of some wrong-headed delusion that it will "fix" a part of you that isn't actually broken, they're sh*theads and they deserve to lose contact with you forever... at least up until the point where you put them in a retirement home and import some rats.

If you are a member of the faculty at some fake-accredited Christian university, you are part of the problem and I automatically assume your degree is equivalent to a Cracker Jack prize. I will not trust your word on anything. You could say the sun rises in the east and I'd still hit up Snopes.

If you are the class pet at some Christian university, I pity you because they probably get the crappiest pet food from some bible-thumping pet store that cares more about the appearance of being christian than poor Mittens' well being.

If you are the rich billionaire creating these whack-ass Christian universities, GO SH*T GLASS SHARDS, YOU SOCIAL SABOTEUR!

Did I leave anyone out?


You're right, those degrees from Duke, Wake, Notre Dame, Georgetown, etc. are like Cracker Jack prizes
 
2014-07-13 03:53:24 PM

TuteTibiImperes: HMS_Blinkin: Similarly, this woman was gay before she attended the university, but she nonetheless signed (as an adult) a contract saying she wouldn't be gay (and I'm sure a lot of other BS as well) as a condition of attending the school.  She broke a contract that she signed.  I don't like the rule, and I don't like the contract, but she signed it.  She had the chance to go to one of many, MANY other colleges that wouldn't have made her sign any "covenant."  And even then, she had a chance to put off getting married until after graduation.

She may not have known she was gay when she signed and enrolled.  A lot of people, especially those who grow up in religious households, suppress those feelings and get pretty good at lying to themselves until they're out living on their own and suddenly the walls fall down.

The big issue is whether or not a school should have the right to require students to sign contracts that essentially deny homosexual students equal rights.
If the school had a blanket 'no marriage' policy it would be one thing, but a policy that discriminates only against homosexual marriage is different.

Using your golf course example if the course had a 'no hats' policy that was enforced equally towards all members that would probably be OK.  Specifically targeting yarmulkes would step over the line.


As somebody else mentioned above (and I didn't think of it), the golf course/university comparison isn't valid -- the university is a religious institution and plays by different rules than a business.

And yes, you're right that many students don't realize they're gay, of course.  But simply  being gay wasn't what got her in trouble; it appears that getting married to a woman did.  And while I agree with you that the contract in question denies equal rights to gay students, religious universities have rights too (annoying as they may be).  Specifically, they're allowed more latitude to create rules that they feel conform to their religious beliefs.  They can make students attend chapel services --- does that discriminate against students who aren't religious?  They can bar students from drinking alcohol or having sex --- does that discriminate against students who want to get drunk and fark (i.e. the vast majority of college students)?

Those examples aren't precisely the same thing, but the fact that religious universities are allowed to impose (often draconian) rules on their students is pretty damn well established by now.
 
2014-07-13 03:56:19 PM

HMS_Blinkin: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.

Yeah.  I'm a rabid supporter of LGBT rights and equality, but it's a private university.  They can make up whatever damn rules they want.  Go to ANY public university in the country and this wouldn't be a problem (or at the very least you could sue someone's face off if it was a problem).


They take federal money.

She may be able to turn this into a Title IX case.  Since she married a woman, it could be claimed that she's "not conforming to gender stereotypes" which is protected from discrimination by Title IX.

The school has clearly discriminated against her because of this, and that's a violation.

If the school doesn't like it, they can refuse federal student aid (and hopefully if they pull that, go monetarily bankrupt - they're already morally bankrupt.)
 
2014-07-13 04:04:56 PM
Yeah, if you agree to go to a private, fundamentalist, Dark Ages "college", don't be surprised when they act like a fundamentalist, Dark Ages "college".
 
2014-07-13 04:08:07 PM

DarkVader: HMS_Blinkin: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.

Yeah.  I'm a rabid supporter of LGBT rights and equality, but it's a private university.  They can make up whatever damn rules they want.  Go to ANY public university in the country and this wouldn't be a problem (or at the very least you could sue someone's face off if it was a problem).

They take federal money.

She may be able to turn this into a Title IX case.  Since she married a woman, it could be claimed that she's "not conforming to gender stereotypes" which is protected from discrimination by Title IX.

The school has clearly discriminated against her because of this, and that's a violation.

If the school doesn't like it, they can refuse federal student aid (and hopefully if they pull that, go monetarily bankrupt - they're already morally bankrupt.)


But there's a difference between "discrimination" and "breaking a contract."  I'd agree with you except that the student in question signed a document saying she agreed not to marry a woman.  If people who sign non-disclosure agreements can have their 1st amendment rights limited by the contract they signed, then students who sign "morality covenants" probably give up many of their protections.

Maybe you're right and maybe the school didn't cover its own ass properly, but I doubt it.  I don't think there will be a case here, because so many christian schools have had rules like this (and even worse ones in some cases) for so long.  I'm assuming the reason these rules still exist is because their lawyers wrote ironclad contracts.

Now, whether or not schools should have a right to make students sign contracts like this is a different matter, but it's enforceable for now.
 
2014-07-13 04:08:32 PM

DarkVader: They take federal money.

She may be able to turn this into a Title IX case.  Since she married a woman, it could be claimed that she's "not conforming to gender stereotypes" which is protected from discrimination by Title IX.

The school has clearly discriminated against her because of this, and that's a violation.

If the school doesn't like it, they can refuse federal student aid (and hopefully if they pull that, go monetarily bankrupt - they're already morally bankrupt.)


If they take federal money.  That said, I'd argue that morality clauses that are amoral should be unenforceable.  You shouldn't be able, for instance, to sign a nondisclosure agreement to cover up child abuse (I know the law was actually changed on this one) or corporate criminal action.  It's a little trickier when they are asking you not to take a legal action.  She could have waited until after she graduated to get married, or transferred.  I think her best argument (if the university doesn't take public money) is to argue that the morality clause isn't uniformly enforced, and therefore she is being singled out.
 
2014-07-13 04:08:54 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.


This is not the freedom you think it is.
 
2014-07-13 04:11:55 PM

HMS_Blinkin: As somebody else mentioned above (and I didn't think of it), the golf course/university comparison isn't valid -- the university is a religious institution and plays by different rules than a business.

And yes, you're right that many students don't realize they're gay, of course.  But simply  being gay wasn't what got her in trouble; it appears that getting married to a woman did.  And while I agree with you that the contract in question denies equal rights to gay students, religious universities have rights too (annoying as they may be).  Specifically, they're allowed more latitude to create rules that they feel conform to their religious beliefs.  They can make students attend chapel services --- does that discriminate against students who aren't religious?  They can bar students from drinking alcohol or having sex --- does that discriminate against students who want to get drunk and fark (i.e. the vast majority of college students)?

Those examples aren't precisely the same thing, but the fact that religious universities are allowed to impose (often draconian) rules on their students is pretty damn well established by now.


There's a difference between a religious institution (church, monastery, etc) and a school run by a religious organization, or at least there should be in the eyes of the law.

The issue isn't about the school's ability to dictate broad rules regarding student life, but rather about how the rules are enforced.  If all students are required to attend church service, and the rule is applied equally across the board, that's OK.  If all students are forbidden from having pre-marital sex, and it's applied equally across the board - that's OK.  If, however, they don't expel students for heterosexual sex but do for homosexual sex, that becomes a problem.  It's treating the same act differently based on a who the students are.

Homosexuality unfortunately isn't a protected class everywhere, but IMO it should be.  As far as the ability of these schools to impose these rules - how much of that is because they haven't been challenged in court recently?

I'm not sure if I'd want to take the case potentially all the way to this supreme court, as they showed with the Hobby Lobby case that they're all too willing to let religious folks impose their will on those beneath them, but once the balance shifts I could see regulations specifically targeting homosexual students being ruled as illegal.
 
2014-07-13 04:14:22 PM

Saborlas: If you attend a Christian university of your own volition, you deserve every bad thing they do to you. I'm fairly certain that many are not accredited by any reasonable organization (some are only accredited by organizations created specifically to accredit BS schools) and a degree from such a place is worthless. We're talking people who say that Pi is equal to three because the bible says so (I Kings 7:23-26, do the math). I wouldn't walk on a bridge designed by someone using the biblical value of Pi.

If your parents force you to attend a Christian university out of some wrong-headed delusion that it will "fix" a part of you that isn't actually broken, they're sh*theads and they deserve to lose contact with you forever... at least up until the point where you put them in a retirement home and import some rats.

If you are a member of the faculty at some fake-accredited Christian university, you are part of the problem and I automatically assume your degree is equivalent to a Cracker Jack prize. I will not trust your word on anything. You could say the sun rises in the east and I'd still hit up Snopes.

If you are the class pet at some Christian university, I pity you because they probably get the crappiest pet food from some bible-thumping pet store that cares more about the appearance of being christian than poor Mittens' well being.

If you are the rich billionaire creating these whack-ass Christian universities, GO SH*T GLASS SHARDS, YOU SOCIAL SABOTEUR!

Did I leave anyone out?


I agree with you.

Not sure why everyone thinks you should calm down. Only one way to deal with this kind of outright bullshiat, call it out, tell everyone involved in it to fark off. Nuke it from orbit, only way to be sure.
 
2014-07-13 04:16:38 PM
I went to a (fully accredited) Christian university so I'm getting a kick etc.

We signed a social contract when we enrolled. When I violated the contract (no homo), I was punished and I didn't complain because I knew the rules and I knew the consequences. Doing the crime/doing the time and all that.

One of my friends came out after she graduated, married a chick, and magically had babby. AFTER graduating, of course.
 
2014-07-13 04:21:15 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I think it's an issue worth debating.  Would you feel the school is within its rights to expel a student for entering into an interracial marriage?  How is this any different?



If you know that you're violating a core principle going in, you shouldn't go in.  Example:  If you go to a vegan cooking school set up by PeTA and sign a contract agreeing to live by their rules, but they catch you raising a baby cow in inhumane conditions, killing it, cooking it, and then eating a thick, juicy piece of oh-so-tender veal at a school function, you need to understand that the school's administration is likely to be just a little bit pissed about it.  No matter how much I may hypothetically support animal cruelty and eating meat, I can't really bring forth all that much rage at your expulsion.  The "sin" itself doesn't really matter.  What matters is that there were  very simple rules that you knew about up-front, but you broke them anyway.
 
2014-07-13 04:24:00 PM

HMS_Blinkin: But there's a difference between "discrimination" and "breaking a contract." I'd agree with you except that the student in question signed a document saying she agreed not to marry a woman. If people who sign non-disclosure agreements can have their 1st amendment rights limited by the contract they signed, then students who sign "morality covenants" probably give up many of their protections.

Maybe you're right and maybe the school didn't cover its own ass properly, but I doubt it. I don't think there will be a case here, because so many christian schools have had rules like this (and even worse ones in some cases) for so long. I'm assuming the reason these rules still exist is because their lawyers wrote ironclad contracts.

Now, whether or not schools should have a right to make students sign contracts like this is a different matter, but it's enforceable for now.


Sorry, Title IX does not work that way.

The school, in accepting federal funds, agreed to a contract that says they will not discriminate based on sex.  They're breaking their contract with the federal government by having a student sign a contract that purports to remove the student's right to not be discriminated against.

The first contract with the federal government takes precedence.  The school's ass is on the line, the student's contract is, to the extent that it purports to allow the school to violate federal law, invalid.
 
2014-07-13 04:26:54 PM

HoratioGates: DarkVader: They take federal money.

She may be able to turn this into a Title IX case.  Since she married a woman, it could be claimed that she's "not conforming to gender stereotypes" which is protected from discrimination by Title IX.

The school has clearly discriminated against her because of this, and that's a violation.

If the school doesn't like it, they can refuse federal student aid (and hopefully if they pull that, go monetarily bankrupt - they're already morally bankrupt.)

If they take federal money.  That said, I'd argue that morality clauses that are amoral should be unenforceable.  You shouldn't be able, for instance, to sign a nondisclosure agreement to cover up child abuse (I know the law was actually changed on this one) or corporate criminal action.  It's a little trickier when they are asking you not to take a legal action.  She could have waited until after she graduated to get married, or transferred.  I think her best argument (if the university doesn't take public money) is to argue that the morality clause isn't uniformly enforced, and therefore she is being singled out.


Note the first thing I said up there:

They take federal money.

There's no "if" in that sentence.  I checked the school's website before I posted, they've got very clear financial aid info, and a convenient link to the FAFSA.

They take federal money.
 
2014-07-13 04:27:12 PM
Trying to bring attention to the shiatty behavior of a group of people is attention whoring now. Just accept that they are terrible people and let them do whatever they want to whoever they want without any social shaming, I guess. Wouldn't want to offend the internet.

"lickety split"

I lol'ed.
 
2014-07-13 04:27:32 PM

Saborlas: If you attend a Christian university of your own volition, you deserve every bad thing they do to you. I'm fairly certain that many are not accredited by any reasonable organization (some are only accredited by organizations created specifically to accredit BS schools) and a degree from such a place is worthless. We're talking people who say that Pi is equal to three because the bible says so (I Kings 7:23-26, do the math). I wouldn't walk on a bridge designed by someone using the biblical value of Pi.

If your parents force you to attend a Christian university out of some wrong-headed delusion that it will "fix" a part of you that isn't actually broken, they're sh*theads and they deserve to lose contact with you forever... at least up until the point where you put them in a retirement home and import some rats.

If you are a member of the faculty at some fake-accredited Christian university, you are part of the problem and I automatically assume your degree is equivalent to a Cracker Jack prize. I will not trust your word on anything. You could say the sun rises in the east and I'd still hit up Snopes.

If you are the class pet at some Christian university, I pity you because they probably get the crappiest pet food from some bible-thumping pet store that cares more about the appearance of being christian than poor Mittens' well being.

If you are the rich billionaire creating these whack-ass Christian universities, GO SH*T GLASS SHARDS, YOU SOCIAL SABOTEUR!

Did I leave anyone out?


Me for one, though I don't support pseudo university's off the false faith divergent from the one true Catholic Church.
 
2014-07-13 04:27:41 PM
I am gay and went to a liberal arts loosely Christian affiliated college.  If a GLBTQ person or anyone else wants to go to a crazy wacko right wing Christian college and is shocked that they actually dislike you, do not be surprised and complain.  Also from what this article said the credits are hard to transfer which makes me wonder if this is even a real college.
 
2014-07-13 04:27:42 PM

Cheesus: Bit'O'Gristle: "As an American and a Christian, I do respect your choice," the administrator wrote. "(But) I have to uphold the Lifestyle Covenant at SCU and confront you with our position.

As an judgmental moralistic finger pointer, i have to say that your lifestyle makes me want to vomit, and you are definitely going to burn in hell because God loves you. So get the fark out. Now.

//Seriously, how can you call yourself a "Christian", who is not supposed to judge, lest you be judged, and yet, you expel someone who has found love, be it a kind you don't understand or agree with? Seems like you :"Christians" like to use what parts of the bible fit your liking, and the others you just ignore. Wasn't one of "Jesus" teachings to accept and tolerate those who are different from you? Guess you kinda forgot that part in your moralistic ravings.didn't ya?

///Dumbass tag should be for the lesbian woman who was a member, and expected them to accept her and her partner. That was stupid. She should have known better.

They genuinely believe that God will take it out on them if they allow it.  Hurricanes, tornados, other natural disasters are all caused by God being pissed about something.


Basically, the stubborn old farts that run these organizations have this innate need to control women's sex lives - it's just an ingrained part of their mental makeup. Since their own sex lives are far behind them due to age, then this is the only way they can get their jollies.

People continue to make the mistake that age equates to wisdom.
 
2014-07-13 04:29:58 PM

Tr0mBoNe: But now people notice her.


Pretty much, she looked at the job market then decided this would be an easy way to make an easy living.

You decided to attend a religious university so don't biatch when they hold you to those standards.
 
2014-07-13 04:31:48 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: nekom: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.

As long as they aren't receiving any government funding, this.

Do any private universities receive government funds aside from things like research grants?


Why should research grants be immune from rules. If you receive so much as a penny from the government then the gov has the right to set rules
 
2014-07-13 04:32:25 PM

Cheesus: Bit'O'Gristle: "As an American and a Christian, I do respect your choice," the administrator wrote. "(But) I have to uphold the Lifestyle Covenant at SCU and confront you with our position.

As an judgmental moralistic finger pointer, i have to say that your lifestyle makes me want to vomit, and you are definitely going to burn in hell because God loves you. So get the fark out. Now.

//Seriously, how can you call yourself a "Christian", who is not supposed to judge, lest you be judged, and yet, you expel someone who has found love, be it a kind you don't understand or agree with? Seems like you :"Christians" like to use what parts of the bible fit your liking, and the others you just ignore. Wasn't one of "Jesus" teachings to accept and tolerate those who are different from you? Guess you kinda forgot that part in your moralistic ravings.didn't ya?

///Dumbass tag should be for the lesbian woman who was a member, and expected them to accept her and her partner. That was stupid. She should have known better.

They genuinely believe that God will take it out on them if they allow it.  Hurricanes, tornados, other natural disasters are all caused by God being pissed about something.


No, just no
 
2014-07-13 04:38:02 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.

I think it's an issue worth debating.  Would you feel the school is within its rights to expel a student for entering into an interracial marriage?  How is this any different?

Schools and businesses do have some leeway over their students' and employees' lives, but there should be limits.  Drugs are still technically illegal even where they're legal at the state level so I can kind of see businesses having the right there, but what about businesses that fire people for using tobacco outside of work, should that be legal?

There need to be more protections for individuals against institutional repercussion for what they do in their private lives.


You want the GOVERNMENT to come in and tell a corporation not to dictate its employees or even customers private lives? WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM YOU COMMUNIST?!?!?!

/why should the rights of a "human being" trump those of a corporation?
//expelling this girl is what Jesus would want, he said so in The Old Testament
 
2014-07-13 04:40:42 PM
fark religion. Come at me BroGod
 
2014-07-13 04:42:58 PM

Witness99: fark religion. Come at me BroGod


img.fark.net
 
2014-07-13 04:43:07 PM

Warlordtrooper: Why should research grants be immune from rules. If you receive so much as a penny from the government then the gov has the right to set rules


Because if the government receives fair exchange for its funds it's a business transaction. I don't get to dictate policy to GM because I buy one of their cars.
 
2014-07-13 04:45:27 PM
I'm waiting.

*whistling and twiddling thumbs*

This planet is so incredibly primitive and stupid. I would ruminate on this more, but I need to make a Greek salad with grilled shrimp now. Bye you religious farktard haters.
 
2014-07-13 04:47:15 PM

Bane of Broone: Witness99: fark religion. Come at me BroGod


What? NO!!! No M'Ladys, oh good god.
 
2014-07-13 04:49:17 PM

ElLoco: Jeez. Christian schools have done exactly this since ever. It's part of the conditions for admission. A Christian University near me has student volunteers that prowl liquor store parking lots and the nude bars (which are distinctly outside the city limits) looking for University parking stickers on vehicles so they can rat out their fellow students and get them kicked. When they find one, they do rat them out. And they do get kicked.


Yeah.  Usually I have a lot of sympathy for the victims but she chose herself as a victim by going to a fundie school.

basemetal: Meh, you're in a christian school (not a great one at that) living in the buckle of the bible belt. If you didn't know this would happen, that education was more worthless than I thought.

/you couldn't wait until after college to get married?


Exactly.  She wasn't in a position she had to marry.  Just wait.
 
2014-07-13 04:50:56 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Warlordtrooper: Why should research grants be immune from rules. If you receive so much as a penny from the government then the gov has the right to set rules

Because if the government receives fair exchange for its funds it's a business transaction. I don't get to dictate policy to GM because I buy one of their cars.


Sure you do.  If you make an agreement with GM that you will buy one of their cars if they agree to also sell their cars to gay people, then GM better sell their cars to gay people, and you can sue them if they start refusing to sell their cars to gay people.

And that's essentially what the feds are doing.  They're setting contractual conditions on those funds.

GM could say to you "We don't care if you don't buy our car.  Go away."  But if they agree to your condition, then you can take legal action against them if they don't follow it, assuming that your condition doesn't violate the law.
 
2014-07-13 04:56:07 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.


FTA - Did Minard sign the school's morality covenant? Yes, she concedes.

Done
 
2014-07-13 04:57:56 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Their university, their rules. Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them, it doesn't matter if you think it's harmless, it's their rules. But that makes too much sense, so when it all goes wrong they should call CNN and complain.

FTA - Did Minard sign the school's morality covenant? Yes, she concedes.

Done


Does the school accept federal funds, and therefore agree to accept the Title IX conditions?  From their website, yes, they concede.

Not so done.
 
2014-07-13 05:00:01 PM
eshalis: I am gay and went to a liberal arts loosely Christian affiliated college.  If a GLBTQ person or anyone else wants to go to a crazy wacko right wing Christian college and is shocked that they actually dislike youhave rules against your behaviour, do not be surprised and complain.  Also from what this article said the credits are hard to transfer which makes me wonder if this is even a real college.

ftfy.

she would have been expelled if she had a job as a stripper, if she was caught smoking pot or any of the other behaviours the school says is a no.  do not secular colleges also have rules that if violated a student can be expelled. 

She agreed to the rules when she agreed to go there. nobody forced her to go to a christian college and even if this was the only college her parents would pay for then she could have chosen a different option on for herself.
 
2014-07-13 05:06:13 PM

Waldo Pepper: eshalis: I am gay and went to a liberal arts loosely Christian affiliated college.  If a GLBTQ person or anyone else wants to go to a crazy wacko right wing Christian college and is shocked that they actually dislike youhave rules against your behaviour, do not be surprised and complain.  Also from what this article said the credits are hard to transfer which makes me wonder if this is even a real college.

ftfy.

she would have been expelled if she had a job as a stripper, if she was caught smoking pot or any of the other behaviours the school says is a no.  do not secular colleges also have rules that if violated a student can be expelled. 

She agreed to the rules when she agreed to go there. nobody forced her to go to a christian college and even if this was the only college her parents would pay for then she could have chosen a different option on for herself.


You're not paying attention.

THIS SCHOOL ACCEPTS FEDERAL MONEY.

The school agreed to certain conditions to get that money, one of which is that there will be no sex discrimination.
 
2014-07-13 05:08:21 PM
If you attend a Christian university and decide to marry your lesbian partner, you best believe you will be expelled from school lickety split you are either an idiot or an attention whore.

FTFY
 
2014-07-13 05:10:29 PM

Waldo Pepper: she would have been expelled if she had a job as a stripper, if she was caught smoking pot or any of the other behaviours the school says is a no. do not secular colleges also have rules that if violated a student can be expelled.


She was expelled for being a lesbian. That isn't a behavior.
 
2014-07-13 05:13:05 PM

DarkVader: Waldo Pepper: eshalis: I am gay and went to a liberal arts loosely Christian affiliated college.  If a GLBTQ person or anyone else wants to go to a crazy wacko right wing Christian college and is shocked that they actually dislike youhave rules against your behaviour, do not be surprised and complain.  Also from what this article said the credits are hard to transfer which makes me wonder if this is even a real college.

ftfy.

she would have been expelled if she had a job as a stripper, if she was caught smoking pot or any of the other behaviours the school says is a no.  do not secular colleges also have rules that if violated a student can be expelled. 

She agreed to the rules when she agreed to go there. nobody forced her to go to a christian college and even if this was the only college her parents would pay for then she could have chosen a different option on for herself.

You're not paying attention.

THIS SCHOOL ACCEPTS FEDERAL MONEY.

The school agreed to certain conditions to get that money, one of which is that there will be no sex discrimination.


and is the feds allow to interfere with the religious aspects of the school and their code?  If there any part of accepting the federal grants that says the school must give up it's religious beliefs? please not what is your opinion but what is the law?
 
2014-07-13 05:14:39 PM

DarkVader: Waldo Pepper: eshalis: I am gay and went to a liberal arts loosely Christian affiliated college.  If a GLBTQ person or anyone else wants to go to a crazy wacko right wing Christian college and is shocked that they actually dislike youhave rules against your behaviour, do not be surprised and complain.  Also from what this article said the credits are hard to transfer which makes me wonder if this is even a real college.

ftfy.

she would have been expelled if she had a job as a stripper, if she was caught smoking pot or any of the other behaviours the school says is a no.  do not secular colleges also have rules that if violated a student can be expelled. 

She agreed to the rules when she agreed to go there. nobody forced her to go to a christian college and even if this was the only college her parents would pay for then she could have chosen a different option on for herself.

You're not paying attention.

THIS SCHOOL ACCEPTS FEDERAL MONEY.

The school agreed to certain conditions to get that money, one of which is that there will be no sex discrimination.


I believe I'm supposed to say, this wasn't sex discrimination, she could have married a man just like any other woman can .
 
2014-07-13 05:24:31 PM
Boo hoo, I didn't get the special treatment I think I deserve despite admitting I broke the conduct agreement I voluntarily signed.
 
2014-07-13 05:32:47 PM

DarkVader: Adolf Oliver Nipples: Warlordtrooper: Why should research grants be immune from rules. If you receive so much as a penny from the government then the gov has the right to set rules

Because if the government receives fair exchange for its funds it's a business transaction. I don't get to dictate policy to GM because I buy one of their cars.

Sure you do.  If you make an agreement with GM that you will buy one of their cars if they agree to also sell their cars to gay people, then GM better sell their cars to gay people, and you can sue them if they start refusing to sell their cars to gay people.

And that's essentially what the feds are doing.  They're setting contractual conditions on those funds.

GM could say to you "We don't care if you don't buy our car.  Go away."  But if they agree to your condition, then you can take legal action against them if they don't follow it, assuming that your condition doesn't violate the law.


Except you buy your PoS GM car from a dealer which is not GM, but a separate legal entity.
 
2014-07-13 06:35:41 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Just like if someone makes you take a drug test to work for them


I don't think we should tolerate that either. So while I agree that those two things should be handled consistently, I don't think either should be allowed employers or schools, absent some bona fide safety concern.

It's nice to say "businesses should be free to choose" but history is full of examples demonstrating why that is practically unworkable for things meant to be available to the public -- if the grocery store in your town decides that the won't sell food to people with a penis it effectively means single men can't live there, or must become beholden to a female provider in order to do so. You can argue about where the line should be drawn, but understand the harms people suffer through discrimination aren't merely imaginary or emotional, they're economic and physical as well, and we need to keep that in mind when deciding what sort of discrimination we will and won't tolerate.
 
2014-07-13 06:41:04 PM
Facebook strikes again.  A private religious school.  She must have figured something like this could happen.  So why not wait until after graduation.
 
2014-07-13 06:41:12 PM

DarkVader: HMS_Blinkin: But there's a difference between "discrimination" and "breaking a contract." I'd agree with you except that the student in question signed a document saying she agreed not to marry a woman. If people who sign non-disclosure agreements can have their 1st amendment rights limited by the contract they signed, then students who sign "morality covenants" probably give up many of their protections.

Maybe you're right and maybe the school didn't cover its own ass properly, but I doubt it. I don't think there will be a case here, because so many christian schools have had rules like this (and even worse ones in some cases) for so long. I'm assuming the reason these rules still exist is because their lawyers wrote ironclad contracts.

Now, whether or not schools should have a right to make students sign contracts like this is a different matter, but it's enforceable for now.

Sorry, Title IX does not work that way.

The school, in accepting federal funds, agreed to a contract that says they will not discriminate based on sex.  They're breaking their contract with the federal government by having a student sign a contract that purports to remove the student's right to not be discriminated against.

The first contract with the federal government takes precedence.  The school's ass is on the line, the student's contract is, to the extent that it purports to allow the school to violate federal law, invalid.


You're correct that Title IX forbids discrimination, but I disagree with your interpretation here.  I think it's a stretch to say she was discriminated against on the basis of gender.  Sexual orientation?  Absolutely, and that should absolutely be a protected class.  But it's not, and at the end of the day, she got in trouble for marrying a woman, not for being a woman.
 
2014-07-13 06:44:31 PM

nekom: As long as they aren't receiving any government funding, this.


Are there any colleges or universities that don't receive government funding?  Grants, student loans, GI Bill--they all get something from the government.
 
2014-07-13 06:53:43 PM
so if she decided to start worshipping satan would the school be required to keep her enrolled so not to violate her freedom of religion. 

At some point we need to put a stop to this whining. You sign up for something, follow the rules or get out. She wasn't forced to go to a Christian college. If she signed the morals agreement knowing she was currently violating parts of the agreement isn't that fraud?

this a better story and one where outrage is justified 
http://news.msn.com/in-depth/small-sc-town-rallies-for-fired-gay-pol ic e-chief#tscptmf
 
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