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(Washington Post)   New report says that the tipped minimum wage hasn't gone up in 23 years. However, if you've been working tables at Denny's since 1991, you've definitely got bigger problems   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 48
    More: Fail, minimum wages, Fair Labor Standards Act  
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858 clicks; posted to Business » on 13 Jul 2014 at 1:01 PM (11 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-13 12:15:41 PM
Even in a utopia, someone would still have to wait those tables for the place to be at all viable. Stop acting like waitstaff deserve to live in poverty. Not everyone has what it takes to be a rocket scientist, and not everyone is born insanely rich.
 
2014-07-13 01:25:18 PM
Many people would love to be employed in a job for 23 straight years, self righteous dick.
 
2014-07-13 02:08:32 PM

Saborlas: Even in a utopia, someone would still have to wait those tables for the place to be at all viable. Stop acting like waitstaff deserve to live in poverty. Not everyone has what it takes to be a rocket scientist, and not everyone is born insanely rich.


I'll add that underpaid waitstaff can't afford to miss work even when they are sick and thus become a health hazard to all the other employees and managers and of course the customers.

Regardless of how ill-educated and "unmotivated" those waitstaff may be, I don't think punishing them by making lots of other people in the general population sick is a very wise move.
 
2014-07-13 02:12:03 PM
Not surprised given the Restaurant industry lobbyist go rabid any time any one suggests raising the minimum wage for wait staff.

Its a sad thing if you ask me, and yes i would be willing to pay more for my rare meal out so those folks could make a living wage.
 
2014-07-13 02:16:02 PM
Four posts and no Mr. Pink?
 
2014-07-13 02:30:14 PM
As far as tipped minimum wages go, as the price of meals goes up, so does the average tip because it's usually calculated as a percentage of the bill (15% to 20% being the norm for average service and higher for better than normal service). It's a self correcting problem.
 
2014-07-13 02:41:07 PM

Radioactive Ass: As far as tipped minimum wages go, as the price of meals goes up, so does the average tip because it's usually calculated as a percentage of the bill (15% to 20% being the norm for average service and higher for better than normal service). It's a self correcting problem.


Except not everybody tips appropriately.

Living above the poverty level for honest work shouldn't depend on random whims.
 
2014-07-13 02:47:06 PM

soseussme: Radioactive Ass: As far as tipped minimum wages go, as the price of meals goes up, so does the average tip because it's usually calculated as a percentage of the bill (15% to 20% being the norm for average service and higher for better than normal service). It's a self correcting problem.

Except not everybody tips appropriately.

Living above the poverty level for honest work shouldn't depend on random whims.


I believe Scottie "No Tippin'" Pippen would respectfully disagree.
 
hej
2014-07-13 03:14:17 PM

grimlock1972: Not surprised given the Restaurant industry lobbyist go rabid any time any one suggests raising the minimum wage for wait staff.

Its a sad thing if you ask me, and yes i would be willing to pay more for my rare meal out so those folks could make a living wage.


Not surprising given the Fark community goes rabid any time anyone suggests that wait staff should have the same pay structure as any other workers because tipping culture is ridiculous.
 
hej
2014-07-13 03:14:53 PM

hej: grimlock1972: Not surprised given the Restaurant industry lobbyist go rabid any time any one suggests raising the minimum wage for wait staff.

Its a sad thing if you ask me, and yes i would be willing to pay more for my rare meal out so those folks could make a living wage.

Not surprising given the Fark community goes rabid any time anyone suggests that wait staff should have the same pay structure as any other workers because tipping culture is ridiculous.


Present company excepted, of course.
 
2014-07-13 03:19:05 PM
A simple solution would just be to remove tips altogether and pay waiters and waitresses the same wages that the kitchen staff gets.

I can assure you that no waitress anywhere in the U.S. would be ok with this.  Because tipped employees are always the highest paid employees in the place, frequently making more than the managers.  The reason for the subminimum  wage for tipped workers is that tipped workers typically make so much in tips that they don't need to make mimimum wage.

If anyone in a restaurant needs to be paid more, it's the kitchen staff, not the waiters.  Worry about the dishwasher making $7.50 an hour, not the waitress making $15 an hour in tips and only claiming half of that on her taxes.
 
2014-07-13 04:16:39 PM
Even ignoring the fact that tips have certainly increased considerably in that timespan, considering that businesses are legally required to make up any shortfall between tips and the standard minimum wage I don't see why this is a problem.
 
2014-07-13 04:37:31 PM
I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.
 
2014-07-13 04:59:13 PM

Saborlas: Even in a utopia, someone would still have to wait those tables for the place to be at all viable. Stop acting like waitstaff deserve to live in poverty. Not everyone has what it takes to be a rocket scientist, and not everyone is born insanely rich.


Yup.

The whole idea behind capitalism is it's a non-zero sum game.  Demand creates more demand and grows the wealth pie.

What if even the most menial jobs paid at minimum a living wage?  Well, those people would mostly be spending that money right back into the local economy demanding goods and services.  Creating even more demand and business opportunities.

Capitalism as it is now seems to be stuck in a accounting minded death spiral.  Part of it is the more perfect information available to employers, and part of it is simply concentrations of wealth and power in ever less competitive markets.  Government was supposed to be a bulk-ward against that, but instead they've signed on as an enabler. This is the reason why we no longer can see job growth tied to economic growth; because trickle down was a bloody lie. 

And so we go deeper into the spiral.  Costs must be cut.  Quarterly earnings are the only thing left.  The only way to grow is dive into overseas markets or to take over the very few competitors still operating at home. All the while the local customer base is poisoned more and more as their purchasing power recedes with every penny pinched by the "job creators".
 
2014-07-13 05:08:54 PM

Straight Outta Wells Branch: soseussme: Radioactive Ass: As far as tipped minimum wages go, as the price of meals goes up, so does the average tip because it's usually calculated as a percentage of the bill (15% to 20% being the norm for average service and higher for better than normal service). It's a self correcting problem.

Except not everybody tips appropriately.

Living above the poverty level for honest work shouldn't depend on random whims.

I believe Scottie "No Tippin'" Pippen would respectfully disagree.


I would say "Libertarians", but I doubt they would be respectful about it.
 
2014-07-13 05:53:19 PM
So, before the outrage grows too much, would anyone like to offer information as to what these folks actually take home?
A quick search reveals that chain restaurant types bring home an effective hourly rate somewhere in the low teens.

That's not great, but it's also not bad for minimally skilled labor.

As for the wisdom of tipping itself, well, there's a series of articles out there by some restaurateur who eliminated tips and it's worked out great for him. If anyone can find them, please link them, they're a good read. However, what works in high-end restaurants run by food lovers may not work everywhere else. From what I understand, restaurant service is generally better in the US than in countries without a tipping tradition.
 
2014-07-13 05:57:36 PM

TyrantII: And so we go deeper into the spiral.  Costs must be cut.  Quarterly earnings are the only thing left.  The only way to grow is dive into overseas markets or to take over the very few competitors still operating at home. All the while the local customer base is poisoned more and more as their purchasing power recedes with every penny pinched by the "job creators".


I don't suppose you've stopped to consider that your well-meaning benefactors in DC have anything to do with the deplorable state of things, have you?
'Job creator' snark is easy and common, but the feds have their fingers so deep in every single pie, it would be counter-productive to demand more of what's brought us here to begin with.
 
2014-07-13 06:02:20 PM

Argyle82: Many people would love to be employed in a job for 23 straight years, self righteous dick.


i.imgur.com
 
2014-07-13 06:34:01 PM

dfenstrate: I don't suppose you've stopped to consider that your well-meaning benefactors in DC have anything to do with the deplorable state of things,


they don't. Corporate profits are at an all time high, wages are flat.
 
2014-07-13 08:42:01 PM

dfenstrate: So, before the outrage grows too much, would anyone like to offer information as to what these folks actually take home?
A quick search reveals that chain restaurant types bring home an effective hourly rate somewhere in the low teens.

That's not great, but it's also not bad for minimally skilled labor.

As for the wisdom of tipping itself, well, there's a series of articles out there by some restaurateur who eliminated tips and it's worked out great for him. If anyone can find them, please link them, they're a good read. However, what works in high-end restaurants run by food lovers may not work everywhere else. From what I understand, restaurant service is generally better in the US than in countries without a tipping tradition.


Here in Michigan, it depends entirely on the restaurant, obviously.

Denny's, Big Boy, Coney Islands, diners, other entry level places, like $9-10/ hr on average.
Applebees, Chili's, Olive Garden, like $12-15 / hr.
High end chains, decent places that aren't super expense, $15-20 / hr.
The super nice places, well, more in the $25-30 range.

But it varies dramatically day to day, server to server. Always keep your hostess happy, she can make your life awesome or hell.
 
2014-07-13 09:05:18 PM
So, what about states that don't allow an adjusted minimum wage? Amazing how those waiters and waitresses still expect tips.
 
2014-07-13 10:05:55 PM

Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.


Its been 20% as long as I can remember
 
2014-07-13 10:42:46 PM

2chris2: A simple solution would just be to remove tips altogether and pay waiters and waitresses the same wages that the kitchen staff gets.

I can assure you that no waitress anywhere in the U.S. would be ok with this.  Because tipped employees are always the highest paid employees in the place, frequently making more than the managers.  The reason for the subminimum  wage for tipped workers is that tipped workers typically make so much in tips that they don't need to make mimimum wage.

If anyone in a restaurant needs to be paid more, it's the kitchen staff, not the waiters.  Worry about the dishwasher making $7.50 an hour, not the waitress making $15 an hour in tips and only claiming half of that on her taxes.


If we raised the wage for currently tipped workers to the minimum, I'd bet a lot of people would continue tipping just because that's what they've always done and because they feel sorry for them and because it gets them good service.

If you're a regular somewhere and you tip well, if the staff is any good they'll go out of their way to give you better service.
 
2014-07-13 11:49:22 PM

dstrick44: Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.

Its been 20% as long as I can remember


it was always 15% and I believe that is still the official rate. If it has gone up to 18 or 20% how did the public get fooled into making up the additional 3%-5% shouldn't that be on the business and not the customer.
 
2014-07-14 12:15:39 AM

meanmutton: dfenstrate: So, before the outrage grows too much, would anyone like to offer information as to what these folks actually take home?
A quick search reveals that chain restaurant types bring home an effective hourly rate somewhere in the low teens.

That's not great, but it's also not bad for minimally skilled labor.

As for the wisdom of tipping itself, well, there's a series of articles out there by some restaurateur who eliminated tips and it's worked out great for him. If anyone can find them, please link them, they're a good read. However, what works in high-end restaurants run by food lovers may not work everywhere else. From what I understand, restaurant service is generally better in the US than in countries without a tipping tradition.

Here in Michigan, it depends entirely on the restaurant, obviously.

Denny's, Big Boy, Coney Islands, diners, other entry level places, like $9-10/ hr on average.
Applebees, Chili's, Olive Garden, like $12-15 / hr.
High end chains, decent places that aren't super expense, $15-20 / hr.
The super nice places, well, more in the $25-30 range.

But it varies dramatically day to day, server to server. Always keep your hostess happy, she can make your life awesome or hell.


A friend of mine was making $400 a night as a waitress at a fancy steak place in college. Of course she was a hot little 20 something that looked grat in a black dress.
 
2014-07-14 02:02:21 AM
In Europe the wait staff are paid properly and tipping isn't necessarily expected. Seems to be working out for them.
 
2014-07-14 03:04:44 AM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: In Europe the wait staff are paid properly and tipping isn't necessarily expected. Seems to be working out for them.


Wait staff and bartenders aren't paid all that well in Prague, and tipping is common but not nearly as much (they tend to round up to the bearest even number), but Czechs frequently think Americans who tip much more are basically stupid.

They are often correct, but not necessarily because of the tipping.
 
2014-07-14 03:41:56 AM

2chris2: A simple solution would just be to remove tips altogether and pay waiters and waitresses the same wages that the kitchen staff gets.

I can assure you that no waitress anywhere in the U.S. would be ok with this.  Because tipped employees are always the highest paid employees in the place, frequently making more than the managers.  The reason for the subminimum  wage for tipped workers is that tipped workers typically make so much in tips that they don't need to make mimimum wage.

If anyone in a restaurant needs to be paid more, it's the kitchen staff, not the waiters.  Worry about the dishwasher making $7.50 an hour, not the waitress making $15 an hour in tips and only claiming half of that on her taxes.



This is rarely true anymore.

Most modern restaurants pool all the tips and distribute them equally among all staff at the end of the shift.
 
2014-07-14 03:41:58 AM
I discovered, through conversation, that the people at Golden Corral who get your drinks and clear your plates are considered tipped positions. Means they get half minimum wage plus whatever people remember to tip them, because the money is taken elsewhere. Apart from the fact I haven't been to a Golden Corral since 2009, remember that buffet service staff are getting screwed by the fact that people don't think to tip them. Even just a dollar a head would send them into the $12/hr range, figuring in both how they handle more people than average waiter, but suffer from the ignorance worse.

I'm expecting a robot that works for tips any time now.
 
2014-07-14 04:27:49 AM

dfenstrate: So, before the outrage grows too much, would anyone like to offer information as to what these folks actually take home?
A quick search reveals that chain restaurant types bring home an effective hourly rate somewhere in the low teens.

That's not great, but it's also not bad for minimally skilled labor.

As for the wisdom of tipping itself, well, there's a series of articles out there by some restaurateur who eliminated tips and it's worked out great for him. If anyone can find them, please link them, they're a good read. However, what works in high-end restaurants run by food lovers may not work everywhere else. From what I understand, restaurant service is generally better in the US than in countries without a tipping tradition.


A waitress at a Denny's in the Midwest might make around $12. A waitress at a nicer place might make as much as $20. It is a more skilled job than you might think. It may not take as much training as IT, but it certainly takes as much skill. Certainly it takes more skill than a forklift driver, who makes similar pay but without having to beg for it. Tipped employees, like freelancers, can't budget worth a damn because their take-home varies week to week. They also work their asses off, and have to take more shiat than any job other than retail. (I really feel for the poor SOB's who work retail. They are so phenomenally underpaid for the way they get treated both by management and customers it's not even funny.) I've been a cook most of my life, and I used to be jealous of the servers, who just had to come in, shake their ass, and take home double what I made. I was jealous, that is, until I waited tables a few times. There is no amount of money that would make me do that for a living.
 
2014-07-14 06:06:57 AM

soseussme: Radioactive Ass: As far as tipped minimum wages go, as the price of meals goes up, so does the average tip because it's usually calculated as a percentage of the bill (15% to 20% being the norm for average service and higher for better than normal service). It's a self correcting problem.

Except not everybody tips appropriately.

Living above the poverty level for honest work shouldn't depend on random whims.


And some people over tip inappropriately. It all levels out as long as the work is actually "Honest" and not someone who just expects to be tipped just for showing up to work. I've had crappy service and tipped well over the norm because I could see that the restaurant was clearly understaffed and the waitstaff was busting their asses and doing the best that they could. I've tipped poorly because I was sitting in a half empty restaurant and had to wait 10 minutes just to get a glass of water (and the poor service continued after that) while the waitstaff shuffled and milled about giving every appearance of not giving a shiat about their customers. I go to a restaurant in part for the service, I can eat a lot cheaper at home.
 
hej
2014-07-14 07:14:03 AM

Waldo Pepper: dstrick44: Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.

Its been 20% as long as I can remember

it was always 15% and I believe that is still the official rate. If it has gone up to 18 or 20% how did the public get fooled into making up the additional 3%-5% shouldn't that be on the business and not the customer.


How can there be an "official rate" for a completely arbitrary number that is just pulled out of peoples ass?
 
2014-07-14 08:26:42 AM

2chris2: I can assure you that no waitress anywhere in the U.S. would be ok with this.  Because tipped employees are always the highest paid employees in the place, frequently making more than the managers.  The reason for the subminimum  wage for tipped workers is that tipped workers typically make so much in tips that they don't need to make mimimum wage.


That's what I always sort of assumed. I mean as much as you hear waiters and waitresses complain about the crappy base salaries and bad tippers, I always assumed it was the potential for big tips, and big money that kept them at the jobs. I bet a lot would rather take the risk of crappy tips, and the chance of good tips over just going to a straight up minimum wage. Because if they wanted to work for minimum wage they could just find a regular retail job working in a mall or a grocery store.
 
2014-07-14 09:39:39 AM

hej: Waldo Pepper: dstrick44: Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.

Its been 20% as long as I can remember

it was always 15% and I believe that is still the official rate. If it has gone up to 18 or 20% how did the public get fooled into making up the additional 3%-5% shouldn't that be on the business and not the customer.

How can there be an "official rate" for a completely arbitrary number that is just pulled out of peoples ass?


official as in the norm. but please focus on the word and not on the subject it so enhances the discussion
 
2014-07-14 11:40:40 AM

Argyle82: Many people would love to be employed in a job for 23 straight years, self righteous dick.


This.
And, I'm sure there are people who have worked at Denny's for 23 straight years. I'd also be willing to bet that bet the employee and Denny's are proud of that streak.

Some people enjoy waiting tables and are good at it. There's nothing wrong with that.
 
2014-07-14 01:05:25 PM
I tend to tip 20%+.  However, if the service sucks, so does my tip.
 
2014-07-14 01:16:47 PM

TyrantII: Saborlas: Even in a utopia, someone would still have to wait those tables for the place to be at all viable. Stop acting like waitstaff deserve to live in poverty. Not everyone has what it takes to be a rocket scientist, and not everyone is born insanely rich.

Yup.

The whole idea behind capitalism is it's a non-zero sum game.  Demand creates more demand and grows the wealth pie.

What if even the most menial jobs paid at minimum a living wage?  Well, those people would mostly be spending that money right back into the local economy demanding goods and services.  Creating even more demand and business opportunities.

Capitalism as it is now seems to be stuck in a accounting minded death spiral.  Part of it is the more perfect information available to employers, and part of it is simply concentrations of wealth and power in ever less competitive markets.  Government was supposed to be a bulk-ward against that, but instead they've signed on as an enabler. This is the reason why we no longer can see job growth tied to economic growth; because trickle down was a bloody lie. 

And so we go deeper into the spiral.  Costs must be cut.  Quarterly earnings are the only thing left.  The only way to grow is dive into overseas markets or to take over the very few competitors still operating at home. All the while the local customer base is poisoned more and more as their purchasing power recedes with every penny pinched by the "job creators".


THE WORD IS BULWARK, YOU CRETIN.
 
2014-07-14 01:40:52 PM

grimlock1972: Not surprised given the Restaurant industry lobbyist go rabid any time any one suggests raising the minimum wage for wait staff.

Its a sad thing if you ask me, and yes i would be willing to pay more for my rare meal out so those folks could make a living wage.


I think that most people basically do pay more to offset this. 20% tips are fairly common, out here at least.

The obvious solution is to do away with the convention of tipping, altogether, and to have staff salaries normalized into something sensible. However, I know enough waiters that hate that idea because they're convinced that they more than make up for it in tips.

/shrug
 
2014-07-14 01:44:05 PM

Waldo Pepper: hej: Waldo Pepper: dstrick44: Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.

Its been 20% as long as I can remember

it was always 15% and I believe that is still the official rate. If it has gone up to 18 or 20% how did the public get fooled into making up the additional 3%-5% shouldn't that be on the business and not the customer.

How can there be an "official rate" for a completely arbitrary number that is just pulled out of peoples ass?

official as in the norm. but please focus on the word and not on the subject it so enhances the discussion


Per the NYT, when I was a kid, 10-20% was an acceptable tipping range.
 
2014-07-14 03:12:15 PM

TyrantII: What if even the most menial jobs paid at minimum a living wage?  Well, those people would mostly be spending that money right back into the local economy demanding goods and services.  Creating even more demand and business opportunities.



But thats not true at all. If everyone suddenly have more money, all that would happen is that pricing would rise for all goods and services. Because of "evil capitalism", if sellers suddenly realize everyone has more money to spend, they will raise prices (1) because its a chance to take more profit but (2) its more likely going to be necessary to raise prices to cover their increased labor costs (and material costs, since the people down the line just got raises, too).

So at the end of the day, what happens is, everyone has more money, but must then spend more money, but no ground is gained. The dollar values moved, and everyone can feel good about themselves, but there is been no real change in social order.


The guy earning a $7.00 hourly wage with a $400 rent bill and eating a $6 value meal will then be taking his new $15.00 wage to pay his $650 rent and his $11 value meal.
 
2014-07-14 03:31:42 PM

LemSkroob: But thats not true at all. If everyone suddenly have more money, all that would happen is that pricing would rise for all goods and services


And yet that has never happened in the history of wage hikes.

Inflation doesn't work that way.
 
2014-07-14 03:46:02 PM
I actually did work as a server at Denny's while going to school in 1991 .  I worked dinner and bar rush Thurs Fri Sat and took home about $350 a week in tips plus my meager paycheck, usually about $40 a week.  I busted my rear for the money but it was flexible and easy to pick up extra shifts. Guys made better money than the ladies because it was automatically assumed we were working our way through college while the ladies had to explain all the time they were also going to school.
 
2014-07-14 03:55:48 PM

Angsto2: I actually did work as a server at Denny's while going to school in 1991 .  I worked dinner and bar rush Thurs Fri Sat and took home about $350 a week in tips plus my meager paycheck, usually about $40 a week.  I busted my rear for the money but it was flexible and easy to pick up extra shifts. Guys made better money than the ladies because it was automatically assumed we were working our way through college while the ladies had to explain all the time they were also going to school.


Plus you have to assume that any woman who was hot enough to use that hotness to help increase her tips and wanted to wait tables, probably wasn't going to be working at Dennys.
 
2014-07-14 04:27:24 PM
I had the opportunity to work in the industry back in my late 20's. I worked for tips as a waiter, bartender and pizza delivery. They all pretty much sucked, with pizza delivery being the worst (and that was when gas was less than $2 an hour, not sure how pizza delivery people are making any money now). Waiting tables (for me) was not that difficult at all. Its fairly straightforward as far as what you're supposed to do and when, plus I got to have sex with many of the female wait staff. Hours were OK. No early mornings and the bars were still open when the restaurant closed.

I knew going into those three jobs that I wasn't getting rich and would struggle financially at times and I still went through with it.
 
2014-07-14 04:35:51 PM

95BV5: Waldo Pepper: hej: Waldo Pepper: dstrick44: Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.

Its been 20% as long as I can remember

it was always 15% and I believe that is still the official rate. If it has gone up to 18 or 20% how did the public get fooled into making up the additional 3%-5% shouldn't that be on the business and not the customer.

How can there be an "official rate" for a completely arbitrary number that is just pulled out of peoples ass?

official as in the norm. but please focus on the word and not on the subject it so enhances the discussion

Per the NYT, when I was a kid, 10-20% was an acceptable tipping range.


10% was the norm back in the day, until the late '70s, when it seemed like there was an orchestrated movement to up it to 15% because of "Inflation".  Seriously.

And it worked. Didn't make logical sense given that rising food prices were driving the tabs up as well.

I don't recall seeing 20% put forth as the norm until about the mid-2000s and it hasn't caught on everywhere yet.

/So old I worked at the Bronto-Burger place on the Flintstones.
//I don't believe in tipping.
///I believe in over-tipping.
 
2014-07-14 05:49:40 PM

Uptown Hipster Doofus: 95BV5: Waldo Pepper: hej: Waldo Pepper: dstrick44: Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.

Its been 20% as long as I can remember

it was always 15% and I believe that is still the official rate. If it has gone up to 18 or 20% how did the public get fooled into making up the additional 3%-5% shouldn't that be on the business and not the customer.

How can there be an "official rate" for a completely arbitrary number that is just pulled out of peoples ass?

official as in the norm. but please focus on the word and not on the subject it so enhances the discussion

Per the NYT, when I was a kid, 10-20% was an acceptable tipping range.

10% was the norm back in the day, until the late '70s, when it seemed like there was an orchestrated movement to up it to 15% because of "Inflation".  Seriously.

And it worked. Didn't make logical sense given that rising food prices were driving the tabs up as well.

I don't recall seeing 20% put forth as the norm until about the mid-2000s and it hasn't caught on everywhere yet.

/So old I worked at the Bronto-Burger place on the Flintstones.
//I don't believe in tipping.
///I believe in over-tipping.


I read somewhere that in NYC the norm is between 25% and 30%.  I wonder if we go out to eat enough during  a year at what point we can start claiming wait staff as employees.
 
2014-07-14 05:52:17 PM

Waldo Pepper: Uptown Hipster Doofus: 95BV5: Waldo Pepper: hej: Waldo Pepper: dstrick44: Nemo's Brother: I argue it has. Apparently before I was alive or aware, 10% was an acceptable tip. Then 15 and 20%.

Its been 20% as long as I can remember

it was always 15% and I believe that is still the official rate. If it has gone up to 18 or 20% how did the public get fooled into making up the additional 3%-5% shouldn't that be on the business and not the customer.

How can there be an "official rate" for a completely arbitrary number that is just pulled out of peoples ass?

official as in the norm. but please focus on the word and not on the subject it so enhances the discussion

Per the NYT, when I was a kid, 10-20% was an acceptable tipping range.

10% was the norm back in the day, until the late '70s, when it seemed like there was an orchestrated movement to up it to 15% because of "Inflation".  Seriously.

And it worked. Didn't make logical sense given that rising food prices were driving the tabs up as well.

I don't recall seeing 20% put forth as the norm until about the mid-2000s and it hasn't caught on everywhere yet.

/So old I worked at the Bronto-Burger place on the Flintstones.
//I don't believe in tipping.
///I believe in over-tipping.

I read somewhere that in NYC the norm is between 25% and 30%.  I wonder if we go out to eat enough during  a year at what point we can start claiming wait staff as employees.


I'd wager that high of a number is only reasonable in Manhattan.
 
2014-07-14 08:34:04 PM

LemSkroob: But thats not true at all. If everyone suddenly have more money, all that would happen is that pricing would rise for all goods and services. Because of "evil capitalism", if sellers suddenly realize everyone has more money to spend, they will raise prices (1) because its a chance to take more profit but (2) its more likely going to be necessary to raise prices to cover their increased labor costs (and material costs, since the people down the line just got raises, too).

So at the end of the day, what happens is, everyone has more money, but must then spend more money, but no ground is gained. The dollar values moved, and everyone can feel good about themselves, but there is been no real change in social order.


The guy earning a $7.00 hourly wage with a $400 rent bill and eating a $6 value meal will then be taking his new $15.00 wage to pay his $650 rent and his $11 value meal.


If that happens, it only signals that there's very little competition and you don't really have anything close to a competitive, free market.  So why the frak are we pretending it's non-commie Capitalism in the first place?

Otherwise the second someone tries to get greedy and increase their margins, someone else will undercut them with thinner margins and make up on larger revenue streams.

And that's the real reason large employers fight tooth and nail against it.  Not because of the costs, but because it injects uncertainty and a window for competitiveness into the market.  Large publicly traded companies get punished for both overshooting and undershooting their quarterly and fiscal year forecasts.  They'd absolutly forgo a possibility of making much more for game theory certainty locked into place instead.  They like the no way to lose part.
 
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