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(The Federalist)   If you like your teacher, you can keep your teacher   (thefederalist.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, Education Secretary Arne Duncan, education policy, literacy rates, court cases  
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2552 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jul 2014 at 5:31 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-12 01:53:59 PM  
up-ship.com
 
2014-07-12 02:03:03 PM  
Christ. I wanted to stop at "blessedly free of government supervision," but stayed for the derp.

I'm subbing in a rural school district and can't get a permanent gig because there are teachers in the classroom without degrees. I wish I were kidding. One of the music teachers is a college dropout with no certification. I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight does.
 
2014-07-12 02:34:25 PM  
It's okay to move the jobs for entire industries to Rajapuhtinihstahn, that's just bidness...but Gawd Fawbid you move some incentive money from Richville to Poortown. that would be Socialist Engineering!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-07-12 02:50:33 PM  
What about former teachers?  I want to keep Debra Lafave.

www1.pictures.zimbio.com
 
2014-07-12 02:57:12 PM  
TOO MANY COMMAS!

Should have had a better English teacher.
 
2014-07-12 03:25:56 PM  
You should only like your teacher in retrospect. You can like having a particular teacher, but if you like that teacher in the present tense, he's not doing his job and stretching you as much as he can.
 
2014-07-12 04:11:50 PM  
To please their federal masters, state departments of education must "describe the steps [they] will take to ensure that poor and minority children are not taught at higher rates than other children by inexperienced, unqualified, or out-of-field teachers," Duncan wrote these departments Monday.

The entire concept of teacher seniority means poor kids inexperienced teachers by design. No one wants to teach at a poor school.
 
2014-07-12 04:18:31 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight

unions does.

FTFY
 
2014-07-12 04:18:42 PM  
A lot of their articles are der...

What?   PEAK PORN!?

http://thefederalist.com/2014/07/11/we-may-be-approaching-peak-porn/
 
2014-07-12 04:37:39 PM  

Destructor: ecmoRandomNumbers: I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight unions does.

FTFY


Um, no, genius. This is Arizona. Union membership is a joke. There is no NEA or any other national representation here.

Thanks for the troll, though.
 
2014-07-12 04:44:05 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Destructor: ecmoRandomNumbers: I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight unions does.

FTFY

Um, no, genius. This is Arizona. Union membership is a joke. There is no NEA or any other national representation here.

Thanks for the troll, though.


Oh. Well "lack of oversight" seems to be doing the job of the union nicely. In Illinois it would be because of the union. Hmm. And also possibly due to a lack of oversight. (Why not both?)

Anyway though, seriously, you should get the job. I sucked at music (I have no sense of tempo), but I looked forward to the class.
 
2014-07-12 05:39:49 PM  
Well that was certainly a well thought out, balanced, and lucid article.

/blessedly free of government oversight
 
2014-07-12 05:46:39 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Christ. I wanted to stop at "blessedly free of government supervision," but stayed for the derp.

I'm subbing in a rural school district and can't get a permanent gig because there are teachers in the classroom without degrees. I wish I were kidding. One of the music teachers is a college dropout with no certification. I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight does.


And the Republicans would love nothing more than to have that situation in EVERY.  SINGLE.  PUBLIC SCHOOL.  That's why they push so hard for voucher systems and other such BS while trying to bust unions.
 
2014-07-12 05:47:27 PM  
If you like your sniveling butthurt you can keep your sniveling butthurt.
 
2014-07-12 05:47:35 PM  
Her bio is like derp bingo.

Joy Pullmann is managing editor of The Federalist. She previously was managing editor of School Reform News and an education research fellow at The Heartland Institute, and before that the assistant editor for American Magazine at the American Enterprise Institute. Joy is also the 2013-14 recipient of a Robert Novak journalism fellowship for in-depth reporting on Common Core national education standards. She has been widely published and has been a guest on numerous radio and TV shows. She travels nationwide to speak at prominent venues including CPAC, the National Right to Life Convention, and statewide education and politics conferences. Joy has taught history, literature, and debate, and wrote high school public speaking curriculum. She is a graduate of the Hillsdale College honors and journalism programs.
 
2014-07-12 05:47:59 PM  

img.fark.netrumpelstiltskin: You should only like your teacher in retrospect. You can like having a particular teacher, but if you like that teacher in the present tense, he's not doing his job and stretching you as much as he can.

 
2014-07-12 05:49:18 PM  

Destructor: ecmoRandomNumbers: I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight unions does.

FTFY

gifatron.com
 
2014-07-12 05:51:58 PM  
the Vergara case

Let's get this party started.

us.cdn001.fansshare.com

photos.imageevent.com

uberhumor.com
 
2014-07-12 05:56:59 PM  
I tried reading, but the smarmy sarcasm after two paragraphs made it pretty clear this was the usual ZOMG ERMAGERD DICTATIN WHILE BLAH stuff.

"great bedtime reading": look, if it's too boring for you, maybe you should stay away from policy and go with your strengths, like for example sprawling on the couch and gazing at your navel.
 
2014-07-12 06:11:31 PM  
Keep the government out of our public schools!
 
2014-07-12 06:24:20 PM  
Hmmm... the press wing of the ruling class might have problems with even a hint of letting the middle class or *gasp* the poors having access to decent schools.  Colour me surprised.

/This is why I'm for socialized medicine and public schooling... if the people that benefit the most from a nation shouldn't be able to opt out of participating in the social infrastructure of that nation
 
2014-07-12 06:24:41 PM  

Arkanaut: Keep the government out of our public schools!


Finally, somebody making some SENSE!!!
 
2014-07-12 06:28:27 PM  

Lsherm: The entire concept of teacher seniority means poor kids inexperienced teachers by design. No one wants to teach at a poor school.


This is why I support performance based bonuses based on testing.  Using the market to bring the most effective teachers into the classrooms that need them.  Test the kids at the beginning of the year and at the end and distribute bonus money based on how the students improved.

The students in the "poor" schools have farther to advance and that would give an opportunity for teachers who want to take on the challenge to get that bonus every time.
 
2014-07-12 06:32:04 PM  
Just got hired for my first ever teaching job, so I'm getting a herp out of the derplies
 
2014-07-12 06:37:44 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Lsherm: The entire concept of teacher seniority means poor kids inexperienced teachers by design. No one wants to teach at a poor school.

This is why I support performance based bonuses based on testing.  Using the market to bring the most effective teachers into the classrooms that need them.  Test the kids at the beginning of the year and at the end and distribute bonus money based on how the students improved.

The students in the "poor" schools have farther to advance and that would give an opportunity for teachers who want to take on the challenge to get that bonus every time.


How do you keep teachers from doing nothing but teaching test skills?
 
2014-07-12 06:39:20 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: This is why I support performance based bonuses based on testing. Using the market to bring the most effective teachers into the classrooms that need them. Test the kids at the beginning of the year and at the end and distribute bonus money based on how the students improved.


The danger of that is making education all about the standarized test and not about teaching useful skills.

I worked as an assistant manager at a Little Caesars in the 90s when they decided that they wanted to push 30+ corporate-owned stores into Ontario, Canada.  The store managers' bonuses were based predominantly on inventory control.  When the mother ship decided to close all the corporate stores 6 years later, their food cost was exquisitely managed but sales were terrible.  Now there are only franchise stores here.
 
2014-07-12 06:56:54 PM  

iwantmypsychodad: Mr. Eugenides: This is why I support performance based bonuses based on testing. Using the market to bring the most effective teachers into the classrooms that need them. Test the kids at the beginning of the year and at the end and distribute bonus money based on how the students improved.

The students in the "poor" schools have farther to advance and that would give an opportunity for teachers who want to take on the challenge to get that bonus every time.


You explained why it would never work in bad areas. Most students would not advance enough and your system would fire every teacher in poor districts regardless of whether it is their fault or not while rewarding the higher income areas because their students would have an easier time improving.


Either that or teachers and/or administrators in the poor districts will cheat. It's almost inevitable whenever you make someone's pay, bonuses, and/or continued employment dependent on some sort of bureaucratic metric (which is what standardized tests are).

See, for example, the VA scandal and most police forces that use some sort of quantitative policing.
 
2014-07-12 06:58:33 PM  

Dafatone: How do you keep teachers from doing nothing but teaching test skills?


Mercutio74: The danger of that is making education all about the standarized test and not about teaching useful skills.


You have well designed tests.  As long as the tests are valid measures of skill, teaching to the test means teaching the skill in question.

Tests remain the only objective measure we have.  I look forward to the day that they aren't, but until then, they need to be the standard metric.


iwantmypsychodad: You explained why it would never work in bad areas. Most students would not advance enough and your system would fire every teacher in poor districts regardless of whether it is their fault or not while rewarding the higher income areas because their students would have an easier time improving.


Who talked about firing anyone?  I talked about a bonus scheme for high performance.

Let's say the test is 100 points with 80 points meaning "at end of year grade level."  The rich schools are going to average close to 80 at the start of the year, the poor schools maybe 40.

Assuming the bonus is based on average increase you have a much better chance at a large bonus in the poor school, but only if you're willing to push the students.  Taking the rich kids from 75 to 85 on average will be easy, but taking the poor kids from 40 to 70 or even 80 would take effort and an excellent teacher.  Hence the bonus scheme that gives teachers who bust their ass in poor schools a huge reward.
 
2014-07-12 07:01:52 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: You have well designed tests. As long as the tests are valid measures of skill, teaching to the test means teaching the skill in question.

Tests remain the only objective measure we have. I look forward to the day that they aren't, but until then, they need to be the standard metric.


lol
 
2014-07-12 07:15:15 PM  

sprawl15: Mr. Eugenides: You have well designed tests. As long as the tests are valid measures of skill, teaching to the test means teaching the skill in question.

Tests remain the only objective measure we have. I look forward to the day that they aren't, but until then, they need to be the standard metric.

lol


What is this "lol" you speak of and how is it an objective measure of student achievement?
 
2014-07-12 07:18:08 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Dafatone: How do you keep teachers from doing nothing but teaching test skills?

Mercutio74: The danger of that is making education all about the standarized test and not about teaching useful skills.

You have well designed tests.  As long as the tests are valid measures of skill, teaching to the test means teaching the skill in question.

Tests remain the only objective measure we have.  I look forward to the day that they aren't, but until then, they need to be the standard metric.


iwantmypsychodad: You explained why it would never work in bad areas. Most students would not advance enough and your system would fire every teacher in poor districts regardless of whether it is their fault or not while rewarding the higher income areas because their students would have an easier time improving.

Who talked about firing anyone?  I talked about a bonus scheme for high performance.

Let's say the test is 100 points with 80 points meaning "at end of year grade level."  The rich schools are going to average close to 80 at the start of the year, the poor schools maybe 40.

Assuming the bonus is based on average increase you have a much better chance at a large bonus in the poor school, but only if you're willing to push the students.  Taking the rich kids from 75 to 85 on average will be easy, but taking the poor kids from 40 to 70 or even 80 would take effort and an excellent teacher.  Hence the bonus scheme that gives teachers who bust their ass in poor schools a huge reward.


Is it your contention that the reason that poor schools do poorly, is lack of effort on part of the teachers?
 
2014-07-12 07:24:01 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: sprawl15: Mr. Eugenides: You have well designed tests. As long as the tests are valid measures of skill, teaching to the test means teaching the skill in question.

Tests remain the only objective measure we have. I look forward to the day that they aren't, but until then, they need to be the standard metric.

lol

What is this "lol" you speak of and how is it an objective measure of student achievement?


the issue with standardized testing is the simple concept of metagaming - teaching to the test is only one aspect of it. cheating is another

and one of the results of standardized testing is the simple concept of maximizing effort - anything that is not a specific driver to an increased score on that test will fall to the wayside as effort spent in those areas is meaningless. that's why the arts is falling by the wayside - why spend money and time on tubas or canvas when the kids can be studying for things that have been defined as 'mattering'?

but the real fundamental issue with standardized testing is the idea that people are standard. people learn different ways, think different ways, cope different ways. the structure of teaching needs to be such that it's able to react to those demands. with standardized testing, there exists an overriding incentive to simply leave behind people who do not learn the same way - it places a metric on efficiency of teaching in the aggregate while losing the efficiency of teaching for the individual

the only way that standardized testing is an 'objective measurement of student achievement' is if you narrowly define students as people who meet your arbitrary criteria absent the standardized testing in the first place
 
2014-07-12 07:28:05 PM  

Lsherm: To please their federal masters, state departments of education must "describe the steps [they] will take to ensure that poor and minority children are not taught at higher rates than other children by inexperienced, unqualified, or out-of-field teachers," Duncan wrote these departments Monday.

The entire concept of teacher seniority means poor kids inexperienced teachers by design. No one wants to teach at a poor school.


You might be confusing "seniority" with "being able to choose which school or classroom you get".  Because I can tell you, in South Carolina at least, that just ain't how it works.  Teachers in South Carolina get told sometime around the middle of April whether or not they'll have a job next August.  And you can either accept the school and class they give you or see if any of the other counties are hiring.

Of course, even if they are, you just end up with the same "take what we offer or hit the road" situation there too.
 
2014-07-12 07:31:11 PM  

Dafatone: Mr. Eugenides: Lsherm: The entire concept of teacher seniority means poor kids inexperienced teachers by design. No one wants to teach at a poor school.

This is why I support performance based bonuses based on testing.  Using the market to bring the most effective teachers into the classrooms that need them.  Test the kids at the beginning of the year and at the end and distribute bonus money based on how the students improved.

The students in the "poor" schools have farther to advance and that would give an opportunity for teachers who want to take on the challenge to get that bonus every time.

How do you keep teachers from doing nothing but teaching test skills?


Bugger that.  How do you keep teacher salaries from being determined by the kids home life and their own motivation?

I tried teaching once.  I had a kid who, swear to god, said his ambition in life was to stay in school long enough to be able to drop out and then become a drug dealer.  There isn't a teacher in the world who could turn that kid around, so why should their pay be based upon an impossibility?
 
2014-07-12 07:34:47 PM  

Dedmon: Is it your contention that the reason that poor schools do poorly, is lack of effort on part of the teachers?


Certainly not.  There are myriad factors that affect why some schools lag behind most of them socio-economic issues related to the students themselves.

This is simply an attempt to attract/reward the teachers who go the extra mile in currently poorly performing classrooms.

We can't make the parents give a damn.  We can't make the parents read to their children.  We can't make their parents remain sober.

We can feed the kids breakfast and lunch, which removes hunger as a distractor to learning.

We can make efforts to get the most motivated teachers in the toughest classrooms by rewarding the teachers when they show that motivation and dedication.  Or we could if the unions would allow it, which they won't.
 
2014-07-12 07:48:38 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Dedmon: Is it your contention that the reason that poor schools do poorly, is lack of effort on part of the teachers?

Certainly not.  There are myriad factors that affect why some schools lag behind most of them socio-economic issues related to the students themselves.

This is simply an attempt to attract/reward the teachers who go the extra mile in currently poorly performing classrooms.

We can't make the parents give a damn.  We can't make the parents read to their children.  We can't make their parents remain sober.

We can feed the kids breakfast and lunch, which removes hunger as a distractor to learning.

We can make efforts to get the most motivated teachers in the toughest classrooms by rewarding the teachers when they show that motivation and dedication.  Or we could if the unions would allow it, which they won't.


So these reforms could go in, if we strip the collective bargaining rights of teachers?
 
2014-07-12 07:50:39 PM  
I have no problem with offering excellent teachers much greater pay to lure them to poor schools.  The key word is "excellent."  There's a vast gulf between excellent teachers and mediocre teachers, and this gulf can be quantified by objective testing.
 
2014-07-12 08:05:10 PM  

vpb: What about former teachers?  I want to keep Debra Lafave.

[www1.pictures.zimbio.com image 199x200]


2013...

www.tampabay.com
 
2014-07-12 08:26:23 PM  
This Heartland Institute harridan is so upset at the prospect of government bureaucrats telling government employees where they will be assigned to work that she's forgotten her usual screed demanding that union teachers be fired and replaced with poorly paid non union Ayn Rand fanboys unable to obtain employment with absolutely no pedagogical training whatsoever because accountability.
 
2014-07-12 08:29:20 PM  

notto: Her bio is like derp bingo.

Joy Pullmann is managing editor of The Federalist. She previously was managing editor of School Reform News and an education research fellow at The Heartland Institute, and before that the assistant editor for American Magazine at the American Enterprise Institute. Joy is also the 2013-14 recipient of a Robert Novak journalism fellowship for in-depth reporting on Common Core national education standards. She has been widely published and has been a guest on numerous radio and TV shows. She travels nationwide to speak at prominent venues including CPAC, the National Right to Life Convention, and statewide education and politics conferences. Joy has taught history, literature, and debate, and wrote high school public speaking curriculum. She is a graduate of the Hillsdale College honors and journalism programs.


Her qualifications as an expert in education are not sullied by any education in the subject matter. IOW  She's Arne Duncan with a different political polarity.
 
2014-07-12 08:34:19 PM  
OK, difficulty level: HIGH

- 14 year veteran teacher
- Scored perfect score on GRE analytical writing section
- Teaches art
- Holds a masters degree in education
- Has taught entire career in "failing" school
- If judged on numbers alone, would be a "failing" teacher
- Students are 100% free breakfast & lunch eligible
- Has students that end year with 40+ absences
- 75% of students speak Spanish at home

Now, would this teacher be allowed to remain in the same school (seeing as it's high-need) or would he be shuffled off to a suburban school where'd he'd likely be teacher-of-the-year or something?

/just curious
 
2014-07-12 08:34:28 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Let's say the test is 100 points with 80 points meaning "at end of year grade level."  The rich schools are going to average close to 80 at the start of the year, the poor schools maybe 40.

Assuming the bonus is based on average increase you have a much better chance at a large bonus in the poor school, but only if you're willing to push the students.  Taking the rich kids from 75 to 85 on average will be easy, but taking the poor kids from 40 to 70 or even 80 would take effort and an excellent teacher.  Hence the bonus scheme that gives teachers who bust their ass in poor schools a huge reward.


This is a ridiculously simplistic idea for calculating value added measures. For one, taking a student from 40% to 45% mastery of a year of curriculum will generally be harder than taking a student from 70% to 75% mastery due to the host of reasons the student began the year with lower mastery. There are deficits in prior education, differences in academics behaviors between high and low achieving students, differences in affective needs between high and low achieving students, all manner of problems related to household stability, and basic resource differences. We employ extremely complicated metrics designed to predict, based on previous achievement and class composition and other factors, the future achievement of a student and rate accordingly, yet these are still flawed in making determinations about which are the most effective educators in a single frame.

Rather, we know what makes educators more effective. We know the value of further education, conferences, professional development, extracurricular programs, specialized programs such as work study, mentoring, collaboration, and so on. Want to get higher quality teachers? Pay them to become higher quality teachers and make colleagues higher quality teachers. Further, incentivize collaboration with low achieving schools. Also, still not sure why we do not better allocate resources; basing this on property taxes in the vast majority of locations seems rife with problems we currently experience.

Also, I will say the majority of pay for performance schemes tend to be ways to reduce standard teacher pay. Being a good teacher is easier than being a bad teacher; students behave better, there is less time in remediation or revisiting, there is greater autonomy, etc., when you are a good teacher. The majority of teachers do as well as possible.
 
2014-07-12 08:50:13 PM  

Karac: Lsherm: To please their federal masters, state departments of education must "describe the steps [they] will take to ensure that poor and minority children are not taught at higher rates than other children by inexperienced, unqualified, or out-of-field teachers," Duncan wrote these departments Monday.

The entire concept of teacher seniority means poor kids inexperienced teachers by design. No one wants to teach at a poor school.

You might be confusing "seniority" with "being able to choose which school or classroom you get".  Because I can tell you, in South Carolina at least, that just ain't how it works.  Teachers in South Carolina get told sometime around the middle of April whether or not they'll have a job next August.  And you can either accept the school and class they give you or see if any of the other counties are hiring.

Of course, even if they are, you just end up with the same "take what we offer or hit the road" situation there too.


Nah, that's how it worked in California when they decided that case a few weeks ago.  Teachers who had been teaching longer got to choose choice schools in a district and newer teachers got stuck teaching at the really shiatty schools.
 
2014-07-12 09:03:58 PM  
Victoria James anyone?
 
2014-07-12 09:37:11 PM  

ginandbacon: TOO MANY COMMAS!

Should have had a better English teacher.


img.pandawhale.com
 
2014-07-12 09:54:44 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Christ. I wanted to stop at "blessedly free of government supervision," but stayed for the derp.

I'm subbing in a rural school district and can't get a permanent gig because there are teachers in the classroom without degrees. I wish I were kidding. One of the music teachers is a college dropout with no certification. I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight does.


There are plenty of jobs here in Texas, if you want one. We'd love to have you. :) 

/English Teacher
 
2014-07-12 09:57:21 PM  

tudorgurl: ecmoRandomNumbers: Christ. I wanted to stop at "blessedly free of government supervision," but stayed for the derp.

I'm subbing in a rural school district and can't get a permanent gig because there are teachers in the classroom without degrees. I wish I were kidding. One of the music teachers is a college dropout with no certification. I taught music for 10 years, but they won't post the position. That's what no oversight does.

There are plenty of jobs here in Texas, if you want one. We'd love to have you. :) 

/English Teacher


Certifying in my own state is a pain in the ass. I can't imagine what it would be like from afar.
 
2014-07-12 10:03:29 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Certifying in my own state is a pain in the ass. I can't imagine what it would be like from afar.


If I recall, one of my peers who was moving to Texas from Florida after graduation was able to get certified in Texas with relative ease. Had the qualifications for Florida, I think simply had to send the transcripts out of accredited program completion and probably do a few exams cause she was certified and able to seek for positions during the break in December.
 
2014-07-12 11:00:52 PM  
While there were a few exceptions, most of my teachers were old cranky ladies. They can have them back.
 
2014-07-12 11:14:13 PM  

Vangor: ecmoRandomNumbers: Certifying in my own state is a pain in the ass. I can't imagine what it would be like from afar.

If I recall, one of my peers who was moving to Texas from Florida after graduation was able to get certified in Texas with relative ease. Had the qualifications for Florida, I think simply had to send the transcripts out of accredited program completion and probably do a few exams cause she was certified and able to seek for positions during the break in December.


Yep. I was originally certified in az, then moved to Tx. Easy as pie.
 
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