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(New York Sun)   1) Write byzantine sex-assault regulations for colleges 2) Accept high-dollar job helping colleges evade byzantine sex-assault regulations 3) Profit 4) Repeat   (nysun.com) divider line 406
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7101 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jul 2014 at 3:04 PM (7 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-09 05:56:41 PM

Ishkur: Elliot8654: So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

Depends on the woman, but I wouldn't put it past her. Are you willing to take that chance?
Worried about false rape accusations? Don't give her any reasons to falsely accuse you of rape.

Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes? Are you wiling to take that chance.
Worried about being raped? Don't give guys any reason to rape you.


Congratulations, you have just turned the "She was asing for it with how she dressed" and turned it into "he was asking for it with that awful performance".
You are officially a horrible person who is setting back this issue by leaps and bounds.
You are using the same argument feminists scream about and trying to use it to justify your own position.
You hypocritical monster.
 
2014-07-09 05:57:00 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: That men take more risks is a well established FACT.


I still fail to see how that transcribes to more pertinent leadership decisions. Risk is a double-edged sword. And I never advocated a dominance of one gender or the other in any position in power. I've often said that a 50/50 split would be beneficial to all societies as it would take advantage of the habits and traits of both. Currently we do not have that.
 
2014-07-09 05:58:16 PM

Ishkur: I still fail to see how that transcribes to more pertinent leadership decisions. Risk is a double-edged sword. And I never advocated a dominance of one gender or the other in any position in power. I've often said that a 50/50 split would be beneficial to all societies as it would take advantage of the habits and traits of both. Currently we do not have that.


It doesn't have anything to do with leadership decisions. It has to do with taking the risk to become an elected person in the first place.
 
2014-07-09 05:58:23 PM

JackieRabbit: Khellendros: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.

"Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it.  Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

I can tell you with no reservation whatsoever that rape was NEVER tolerated when I attended college a quarter-centry ago. So don't give me the "it isn't tolerated now the way it once was." Because this is a myth; it never happened.


I'll get back to you after I stop laughing.

/it's not happy laughter
 
2014-07-09 05:59:22 PM

Ishkur: Libelec: So, don't make any demands or unreasonable expectations, but do all this things we demand, you selfish douchebag?

Yes, it's called courtship, dumbass. You don't have to do all those things if you don't want to, but the upside of not being a total douchebag who's awful at sex is that she doesn't consider you a total douchebag who's awful at sex and possibly a rapist if she's sufficiently motivated to publicly shame your awful-sex doucheness.


Odd. I thought that by the point one reached the sex one was done with the courtship (unless one is looking for a relationship instead of sex, but then your peacock example is out of the table).

Funny also this part:

and possibly a rapist if she's sufficiently motivated to publicly shame your awful-sex doucheness.

Are you saying that if a man is bad at sex, the man is a rapist? Or that it's fine that she publicly shames him for that?

I wonder, if the girl is awful at sex, would it be OK for the man to publicly shame her? Furthermore, since you gave the example of oral sex as something a man  should do to not be considered awful, if the woman doesn't want to give you oral sex, does that make her awful? Should we shame women who don't give head?

It's a pretty farked up conception of "sex as servitude" you have there.
 
2014-07-09 06:02:52 PM

JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?


Um, probably more like:
Women are in higher positions of power on campuses than back in the day, and know that this was a huge problem back in the day when they were a student, passes out anonymous survey to female populace and confirms: Nope. Still a problem.

Also: Better education *about* rape to women, higher awareness of it due to culture, and more women reporting results in higher visibility of a very prevalent problem.

In other words, the best way to circumvent this would be to make all students aware of what consent actually is, and how you shouldn't be drinking if you expect to get laid, you shouldn't have sex with people who have been drinking, and you should get a clear Yes before proceeding.

"Slut-shaming" doesn't really happen on college campuses anymore, either; excepting of course for female on female judging of wardrobe choices. Everybody is free to get laid how they wish, with whom, unless you are raped.

In fact the only time "Slut Shaming" seems to occur nowadays is when a girl comes forward, and says she was raped.
Even worse if she claims rape, and up until then had an active sex life.

You would think if it was such a problem before, somebody would have pointed it out, and as she didn't accuse anyone else of rape, shouldn't the accused should become even more suspect as a result?
 
2014-07-09 06:03:32 PM

Elliot8654: Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes?


But that would be unreasonable.

Seriously, what is your objection to simply pleasing a woman so that she's actually satisfied with the encounter instead of full of regret? Is it too gross down there? You're not skilled enough with your tongue? You don't like her touching you? You can only get off like that redtube video you watched? What is it -- it's a fairly innocuous suggestion, and you're fighting me tooth and nail like it's some flagrant and grievous intrusion on your personal liberty.

Is it really that hard or are you just too selfish to give her any attention at all?
 
2014-07-09 06:04:24 PM
From Ikanreed's link. "Legal website FindLaw emphasizes that being intoxicated is not typically a way to get out of a contract. There is an exception to this rule if the other person can prove you knew they were intoxicated and took advantage of them. For example, if you knew the supplier did not want to work with you and kept buying him drinks until he was drunk enough to sign, he might be able to get out of the contract."

Still sounds murky to me. However, for what it's worth, I can't even imagine trying to fark a woman who is passed out drunk or obviously unable to consent in any meaningful sense of the word. I mean, aside from being rape-rape, which is bad enough, I just don't see how it could be any fun. Give me a horny, willing girl any day.

\lucky to have just such a GF and she's a gem.
 
2014-07-09 06:05:52 PM

Libelec: Are you saying that if a man is bad at sex, the man is a rapist? Or that it's fine that she publicly shames him for that?


I think Ishkur is saying that if a man is bad at sex, then a terrible woman might accuse him of rape - not that he is a rapist, but that he'd be a target for a false accusation. No implication was implied that that's fine on her part.

It's a naive and relatively unhelpful suggestion, but there is a kernel of truth to it: namely, if you're good at sex, then you're also going to be communicative with your partner, which is going to significantly decrease the odds of getting hit with a false accusation. Since, y'know, they're talking to you.
 
2014-07-09 06:06:25 PM

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes?

But that would be unreasonable.

Seriously, what is your objection to simply pleasing a woman so that she's actually satisfied with the encounter instead of full of regret? Is it too gross down there? You're not skilled enough with your tongue? You don't like her touching you? You can only get off like that redtube video you watched? What is it -- it's a fairly innocuous suggestion, and you're fighting me tooth and nail like it's some flagrant and grievous intrusion on your personal liberty.

Is it really that hard or are you just too selfish to give her any attention at all?



You do realize you're just burying yourself deeper right?
I have no problem pleasing a woman.
I have every problem with you saying that not pleasing a woman means men may get accused of rape.
You are taking the arguments that feminists are spending their entire day trying to stop, and instead using them to threaten men.

Do you have a problem with women not pleasing men?
As I recall if a girl didn't go down on a man, you said we shouldn't force her and it's her choice.
Why are you so one sided?
 
2014-07-09 06:06:32 PM

Elliot8654: Ishkur: JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after. And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.

So yeah. That last paragraph;

"Here guys, here is a list of things you should do even if you don't want to. But if a girl doesn't want to do something, too bad".



Yea, but that's being polite in general -- whether in a sexual context or any other context.  You can't force the other person to be decent, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't make the attempt on your end.  Golden Rule and all that.  Women should basically abide by the same (well, similar) list on their end.
 
2014-07-09 06:07:26 PM

brimed03: Look, either the world has inexplicably gotten so very much worse in a mere 50 years, or we're finally talking about a problem that has always existed. Which seems more likely to you?


Hell, it's only been around 20 years that spousal rape has been illegal in every state.
 
2014-07-09 06:07:59 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: It doesn't have anything to do with leadership decisions. It has to do with taking the risk to become an elected person in the first place.


It's never been just about politics, but about all avenues in life everywhere. Every powerbase: Politics, laws, schools, corporations, family, etc...

But the "men take more risks" does not translate to "men take all the risks". Because as soon as they were empowered, females began filling commercial and political positions, which they had never done en masse in the past because they were forbidden to do so (a fact of history that you deny). So we know that females can obtain positions in power and frequently do so when the playing field is level. The next President may be one.
 
2014-07-09 06:08:48 PM

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes?

But that would be unreasonable.

Seriously, what is your objection to simply pleasing a woman so that she's actually satisfied with the encounter instead of full of regret? Is it too gross down there? You're not skilled enough with your tongue? You don't like her touching you? You can only get off like that redtube video you watched? What is it -- it's a fairly innocuous suggestion, and you're fighting me tooth and nail like it's some flagrant and grievous intrusion on your personal liberty.

Is it really that hard or are you just too selfish to give her any attention at all?


Can you explain how your sex ability relates to the woman in the scenario claiming rape? I don't think you're helping here.
 
2014-07-09 06:09:48 PM

JesusJuice: spiritplumber: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

I lost a semester of college because of a false rape accusation, actually. Not the end of the world, but still. There's also the whole "getting locked up and having no real idea why" part, it was a very scary five days.

Something similar happened to me. She hadn't gone to the police yet but seemed to be moving in that direction. Luckily I had a few things on her that she preferred be kept private and we were able to come to an understanding.


Summary: she was going to report you for something that wasn't, in your opinion, rape, and you blackmailed her into not doing it.

Listen, I know false accusations occur. So I'm not denying that there's a real chance that's what happened. Of course, I've also seen hundreds of men who didn't understand the legal definition of rape and wouldn't have considered action xyz to *be* rape-- even in the face of a lawyer telling them: the court calls this rape and would find you guilty on that basis. And I've seen guys who were certainly guilty retell the story while still denying they did anything wrong.

I've no idea what actually happened in your situation. I'm forming no opinion, making no judgement, attempting no guess. But I am recommending that you keep that story to yourself. Even online. There are too many variables for that to ever be a safe story for you to tell again.
 
2014-07-09 06:11:42 PM

fireclown: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

It's still a serious, although separate problem.  The entire subject is serious, and has consequences.  False accusations should be dealt with harshly.

On to the main point:  Ladies: do not go to a college administrator if you are raped.  Go to the police.


Wrong, whomever you are, call 911, go to the Hospital ER, and request a rape kit first. Call your trusted friend/parental unit. Go to the Police.

Interesting thought: If male rape victims were taken seriously, all reports would be taken seriously. Using sexism to combat sexism.
 
2014-07-09 06:11:45 PM

brimed03: Summary: she was going to report you for something that wasn't, in your opinion, rape, and you blackmailed her into not doing it.


It's not what you know or who you know -- it's what you know about who you know.
 
2014-07-09 06:13:27 PM

Elliot8654: If 90% of the time it's men perpetrating a crime, then 90% of the people arrested and imprisoned should be men. I fully agree.
But to claim that it can't happen because if guys get drunk they cant get hard, so they can't rape is asinine.
Which was the implied claim of a previous post by someone else.


Uh, that's wasn't implied by the claim at ALL.  Not even close.  Here's the trail:

Khellendros: Only rarely. Unless she grabs him and forces him in, he's the one who took the action. While I'm not going to claim this doesn't happen, I would assert it is the extreme minority of cases.


Inchoate: If the guy's drunk, whiskey-dick usually inhibits penetrative rape, but there are definitely cases of women taking advantage of drunk dudes. Not common, but happens.


To which you responded:

Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.


Never was there an implication in the thread you replied to that men CAN'T raped, only that it wasn't common, and often difficult in drunken situations.  You then went on a third rail about coercion and other forms of possible rape, attempting to say it happens to both genders.

Basically, you had a snap reaction to something that wasn't said, and are full of shiat.  Your beliefs and need to side-step the problems and create false equivalency is so blatant you can't seem to step back fast enough.  And now you're trying to claim what was never said - or even implied - was what set you off.  When it was INTENTIONALLY stated by both of us that it happens, but was a very small percentage of the cases.
 
2014-07-09 06:19:26 PM

Khellendros: This text is now purple: Khellendros: This text is now purple: Khellendros: "Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it. Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

If both parties are drunk, two rapes have been committed.

Only rarely.  Unless she grabs him and forces him in, he's the one who took the action.  While I'm not going to claim this doesn't happen, I would assert it is the extreme minority of cases.

Perhaps you missed the part where the male was unable to legally consent. Which makes sex with such a male rape.

I didn't miss it at all - you said "if both parties are drunk". If both parties are drunk, rape is committed by the one that took action to initiate sex.  In nearly all cases, that is the male.  It's exceptionally difficult for it to be the woman (though it is possible, and likely does occur from time to time).



Why would it be difficult for the woman to initiate?  "Drunk" doesn't necessarily mean passed-out.  A person can be intoxicated beyond the ability to give meaningful consent, yet still conscious.  In such a situation, both parties might very well be conscious and reasonably active, and there's no reason the female couldn't initiate with a partner who was unable to consent.
 
2014-07-09 06:19:42 PM

Theaetetus: I think Ishkur is saying that if a man is bad at sex, then a terrible woman might accuse him of rape - not that he is a rapist, but that he'd be a target for a false accusation. No implication was implied that that's fine on her part.

It's a naive and relatively unhelpful suggestion, but there is a kernel of truth to it: namely, if you're good at sex, then you're also going to be communicative with your partner, which is going to significantly decrease the odds of getting hit with a false accusation. Since, y'know, they're talking to you.


Leave it to the attorney to read the fine print.

It's mostly snark, but based on something important that MRAs fail to understand:

A good relationship is about consensus and compromise. You give and take in equal quantities (and qualities), and understanding your partner's needs and acquiescing to them is what people in love do. And they do it because they want to do it, because they want to see their partner happy and because it's not a power struggle. While arguments may arise every now and then, you learn to pick your battles, let some things slide, and ultimately come out to a mutual understanding from it. You can't go through life like a petulant little child who always gets his way, and if you meet someone who demands that all the time, then they aren't worth it. This applies to men and women.
 
2014-07-09 06:22:51 PM

JesusJuice: Corvus: Ant: Define rape

To that idiot, getting a girl passed out on drinks then having sex with her is not rape.

Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.


Drunk people cannot legally give consent. The judge doesn't really care if you don't agree with that.

But the lay explanation: judgement and inhibition drop the more you drink. While we've been socially encouraged to think that this is a good thing ("have a drink, loosen up") it means you're in an altered state of mind; you aren't yourself, and therefore cannot make important decisions.

Most people would acknowledge that it would be wrong to get someone drunk and then have them sign a contract. Same thing with sex.
 
2014-07-09 06:28:16 PM

macadamnut: Khellendros: I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.

Why not both?


Because then there would be evidence for both. And there isn't evidence that it's suddenly happening more than it used to; only that it's being reported more than it used to be. And yes, scientists more knowledgeable than you or me have statistical and methodological ways of differentiating the two, and have done so in peer-reviewed publications.

Memes are fun. They're also just memes. They don't have a place in every discussion.
 
2014-07-09 06:30:11 PM
Currently in Minnesota and -- for the hell of it -- was looking at the Minnesota criminal code with regards to sex crimes.  Good Lord, I think this is still on the books:

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=609.34
 
2014-07-09 06:30:47 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: Mikey1969: Ooooh!! I know! Women have falsely accused men of assault and rape before, so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases all of the ACTUAL attacks.

Did I move on to the bonus round?

Was your mother raped on campus and was the accused not thrown out of college?

No?

Then it's not germane to the discussion.


Fail.

You opened the discussion to the *general* topic of rape and rape allegations. You don't get to revert back to the specific when someone's point is too hard for you to handle.
 
2014-07-09 06:32:28 PM

Khellendros: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

Congratulations on two items:

1)  Demonstrating the fallacy of misleading vividness in a nearly perfect way.

2)  Justifying your favorite tag of "Sexist Prick" for at least the third time in the last week.

I commend you.  March on!


You could use this argument in favor of capital punishment: "Eh, so a small percentage of executed people are innocent; better to kill the innocent than to let the guilty escape justice."

I'd feel a lot better about the campus rape situation if so many rape victims didn't come forward because he's cute/is the varsity sports team captain/is popular/has rich parents/maybe he'll call.........
 
2014-07-09 06:33:25 PM

frepnog: Mikey1969: so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases

the problem was not the rape.  the problem was that your mom had a farking psycho for a boyfriend.


Oh, good. Sexual assault and murder is the fault of the victim. Yes, let's exhume that canard and put it back on display.
 
2014-07-09 06:44:17 PM

KawaiiNot: Ant: KawaiiNot: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

Seriously, I wonder this too. Are more parents failing at raising their boys to be real men these days? It was not an epidemic back when I went to college and was in the military. It happened but it was much more rare.

It was not more rare, they just got away with it back then.

Are you a woman who went to college in the 80s/90s? I am an actual woman who lived back then and I can tell you that while I knew a few women who that happened to, it did not happen as commonly as it does today. Reported to police or not, women talk about these things with their close friends or their friends pull why they are upset out of them.

It's not just a matter of reporting it more, it's also happening much more on college campuses and the military.


Completely, absolutely, unequivocally false.

Go read up on the psychology of rape victims before spouting "sisterhood" crap about how you would have known because girls talk.

And for the record, I was in college in the late 80s/90s. While I'm not female, I had enough connections within the student and professional staff that I can tell you rape was going on and, to an extent, was being reported. The schools just weren't telling the student body about it-- because the Clery Act was still being passed and implemented, because handling it outside of the court system was still the operating rule of the day, because they were pressuring the victims to keep quiet. All of which and more is why even today it needs federal strong-arming to bring the issue into the daylight system-wide.
 
2014-07-09 06:49:47 PM

Khellendros: Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.

I'm sorry, we were talking about rape.  You know, sex with at least one non-consenting party?  Not this bullshiat you're peddling.  Other than the drug use example, the rest is piles of false equivalency.


No, no, he's right.
Guy pressures girl to have sex, he's  that guy. You know the assault perpetrator. She doesn't really want to, but she can't get away.

Girl pressures guy to have sex, he keeps saying no, and then she gets pouty-faced, and sad, and the Guy doesn't really want to, but feels like he can't get away.

Or guy is a virgin and doesn't want to have sex and his girlfriend treats him like he's an idiot, and blackmails him that she'll tell all his friends, or make something up if he doesn't.

The problem is consent.
We don't apply a universal set of rules that are easy to learn, and live by, about what consent is and how it should be given.
Because of that there is not only communication issues about it, but people then try to redefine what the bad stuff actually is.
Men do not automatically consent as default.
Girls do not have to say "No" in order to get out of consent.
If there is no Yes, there is no sex.
Any party has been drinking?
Sober up before you have sex.
If it comes out YEssssssssssssssSSsss, it means No.

Talk with them until dawn(tipsy), sleep it off(stumbling), leave them alone (passed out), and above all else make sure they'll be okay as you leave them.
They do not owe you for being nice to them. If they decide "maybe not", then it wasn't meant to be.
Being nice is the first step; it's not the point of no return.

Also, if you think some girl is being manipulative and stupid and "using her pussy pass for a free night out": STOP BUYING HER DRINKS, AND SAVE YOUR MONEY.


I mean, it's not that hard to understand and follow, right?
 
2014-07-09 06:49:54 PM

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Oh, and as for my "douchiness", is that why I am cooking steak, pasta, and vegetables for my fiancee?

Was she homeschooled?

Elliot8654: How about instead of making me "fix my douche attitude" you encourage women as well as men to be responsible for themselves.

I did. In my very Boobies. You notice that no woman objected to my advice but the MRAs jumped all over it? That's telling. It means it's not just about women, it's a bigger complex of resisting anything might be tell them how to behave or live, which is probably why MRAs are almost always Libertarians/Objectivists.

For that is truly the heart of the whole MRA ethos: The strident individualist desire to not be controlled by ANY authority, period. They have a fierce resistance toward any group that tries to tell them how to live, how to behave, how to act, how to treat others or even how to function in society. So it all comes from the same core principle: They hate government because it legislates society, they hate religion because it enforces morality, and they also hate minority groups (or any group that's not them: white privileged males) for forcing them to obey some arcane set of social behaviors that they did not sign up for. This is where MRA comes in, which is just a political rally removed from nationalism and a burning cross removed from racism. They don't like other people telling them how they should treat others, especially religions, minorities and women. And most of them hate altruism.

There are various flavors of staunch right-wing individualism, from the mild social libertarians to the ultra-schizophrenic Sovereign Citizens (a group that denies the existence of any social institutions entirely) but most of them fall within the hard Libertarian/Objectivist camp - mostly college-aged males who just read Ayn Rand and realized that society has no right to tell them they aren't allowed to be self-righteous assholes (without consequence, of course). They also tend to be Ron Paul fol ...


why do you hate freedom so much?
 
2014-07-09 06:57:54 PM
Stupid submitter, it's Istanbul Sex Assault Regulations now
 
2014-07-09 06:59:36 PM

ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.


And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.
 
2014-07-09 07:12:03 PM

gopher321: I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.


perhaps it outweighs the "media-hyped" reports, but when a good 1/3 of actual reports turn out to be false ones, it hurts everyone. womens activists often defend any woman making a claim despite all facts in evidence, and even object to any legal punishment from those caught red-handed making false claims, but all that does is make the problem worse and degrade trust in the claims of real victims coming forward.
i used to date a woman that worked in a victims support center, and like DUI's, some people with rape claims could not stop at just one. some women claimed 8 or 9 different rapes from 8 or 9 different people (usually ex-boyfriends an ex-bosses) all in the course of a couple of years she was there. some women actually actively solicited help from the support staff for helpful details to add to make a claim more believable, especially as custody fight tools.
some of the support staff were repulsed by this behaviour, but even then most supported and or helped them unquestioningly anyway, as most womens advocates have it as a bedrock tenet of faith that if anyone publicly questions any rape claim, by any woman, anywhere, ever, then the law will simply stop protecting all women, and no one will ever come forward ever again with a rape claim for fear of being doubted.
/don't even ask what they think of jail time for proven vindictive false reports, it usually degenerates into something about it being a patriarchal tool to silence women so that men can rape with impunity.
 
2014-07-09 07:14:09 PM
We used to believe only male teachers took advantage if students. We passed all kinds of laws to protect these young women from these make predators. Funny thing started happening
 
2014-07-09 07:14:19 PM

OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.


Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?
 
2014-07-09 07:16:32 PM
The most important change in the sex assault regulations the Feds insist colleges implement is a switch from beyond reasonable doubt to preponderance of the evidence.  Universities are then using what can only be described as kangaroo courts to make very quick decisions, based on "she said/he said", on whether to kick the accused out of school.  Almost always the (male) student is kicked out of school.  This means one of two errors has been made.  Either he was innocent and was unjustly punished.  Or he was guilty and now a rapist has escaped punishment, and because rapists usually rape again, another woman will suffer.

The universities prefer this system because it protects their reputation.  For them, reputation is everything and nothing, not even justice, is allowed to tarnish it.  Universities should not be allowed to handle sexual assault accusations.  It should be entirely a police matter (no, not the farking campus police).  Universities should never be allowed to sweep their dirty laundry under the rug.
 
2014-07-09 07:19:20 PM

tlars699: OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.

Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?


You're trying to equate a drunk naked woman saying "fark me" to her equally drunk date with homicidal assault?  Nice strawman.
 
2014-07-09 07:20:34 PM

OgreMagi: tlars699: OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.

Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?

You're trying to equate a drunk naked woman saying "fark me" to her equally drunk date with homicidal assault?  Nice strawman.


negligence.  preview and proofreading is my friend.
 
2014-07-09 07:24:58 PM

Ivan the Tolerable: gopher321: I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

perhaps it outweighs the "media-hyped" reports, but when a good 1/3 of actual reports turn out to be false ones, it hurts everyone. womens activists often defend any woman making a claim despite all facts in evidence, and even object to any legal punishment from those caught red-handed making false claims, but all that does is make the problem worse and degrade trust in the claims of real victims coming forward.
i used to date a woman that worked in a victims support center, and like DUI's, some people with rape claims could not stop at just one. some women claimed 8 or 9 different rapes from 8 or 9 different people (usually ex-boyfriends an ex-bosses) all in the course of a couple of years she was there. some women actually actively solicited help from the support staff for helpful details to add to make a claim more believable, especially as custody fight tools.
some of the support staff were repulsed by this behaviour, but even then most supported and or helped them unquestioningly anyway, as most womens advocates have it as a bedrock tenet of faith that if anyone publicly questions any rape claim, by any woman, anywhere, ever, then the law will simply stop protecting all women, and no one will ever come forward ever again with a rape claim for fear of being doubted.
/don't even ask what they think of jail time for proven vindictive false reports, it usually degenerates into something about it being a patriarchal tool to silence women so that men can rape with impunity.


This is demonstrably false as seen in this thread, as provided by Hardinparamedic's quotes. It's more like 4-6% of claims made that are false, per any other report-able crime.

It's very concerning that your gf and all the victim help center people could prove that there were women making false claims, and letting it go through without informing some defense lawyers on where to get some proof at the very least; I mean seriously, 8-9 reports within 8-9 years? and there's a pattern to the lady's reports? I'm surprised that the defense lawyer wouldn't immediately pull up her record for reporting and use that to defend his client.

There is also the possibility that a victim keeps putting herself through the being raped cycle, because she's not getting the counseling needed to spot a pattern and prevent it.
If all of your boyfriends are abusive rapists, then maybe you need to get some therapy to figure out how you seem to be finding all of the abusive rapists in the area for boyfriends.

Tell me MRA wingjobs in the thread: Are there support groups for abusive rapists to get together and talk about their strategies?
I know the RadFems like to laugh online about how men get abused. It would seem only fair.
 
2014-07-09 07:31:19 PM

OgreMagi: tlars699: OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.

Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?

You're trying to equate a drunk naked woman saying "fark me" to her equally drunk date with homicidal assault?  Nice strawman.


No, I was using car accidents being the fault of a drunk driver, and someone ending up dead in the resulting accident as a comparison. Perp would still be drunk, but a lesser sentence would be the result of the criminal's inebriation.

I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

If she hops on him anyway, he should call 911, and report an assault on her.
 
2014-07-09 07:35:32 PM

tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.


It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?
 
2014-07-09 07:35:56 PM
Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.
 
2014-07-09 07:37:47 PM

tlars699: Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.


How else am I supposed to meet "the one" other than at the local psychiatric hospital?  And we already know how that turned out.
 
2014-07-09 07:46:06 PM

OgreMagi: tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?


In any sensible one, where they say "But Baby, I want to get to know you first- you know, talk until the sun rises" instead, because the unsaid bits are (because I can smell the EverClear on your breath and please just get mad and leave if you feel rejected, because I don't want to have to babysit tonight.)

Also, I would say that the more drunk person has the least responsibility.
As women have a harder time processing the same volume of alcohol as men, that would mean on average women would be the persons being taken advantage of in a drunken state.
However, "taking advantage" of either party can be avoided in general if women are told: You get drunk, you go home to Your House, and do NOT have sex or plan to while inebriated.
And if men are told: You SHOULD say NO to the drunk girl flinging her panties at you. If her panties stay off while sober, have at it, but until she's sober, NO!!!!! If she keeps wheedling you about it, she is trying to coerce you, and you should have her leave. You have the right to say NO.

Making the guy responsible in that situation might encourage the whole idea of men having consent options, as well.
As a temporary measure until our culture catches up to this idea, this rule? Meh. I'm having a hard time having a problem with it.
If the girl wants to get laid that badly, she can do it sober.
Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.
 
2014-07-09 07:48:16 PM

OgreMagi: tlars699: Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.

How else am I supposed to meet "the one" other than at the local psychiatric hospital?  And we already know how that turned out.


You could meet them at a gaming convention, or through a D&D group, and then re-meeting at a sushi place 6 years later, like I did.
 
2014-07-09 07:51:41 PM

tlars699: OgreMagi: tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?

In any sensible one, where they say "But Baby, I want to get to know you first- you know, talk until the sun rises" instead, because the unsaid bits are (because I can smell the EverClear on your breath and please just get mad and leave if you feel rejected, because I don't want to have to babysit tonight.)

Also, I would say that the more drunk person has the least responsibility.
As women have a harder time processing the same volume of alcohol as men, that would mean on average women would be the persons being taken advantage of in a drunken state.
However, "taking advantage" of either party can be avoided in general if women are told: You get drunk, you go home to Your House, and do NOT have sex or plan to while inebriated.
And if men are told: You SHOULD say NO to the drunk girl flinging her panties at you. If her panties stay off while sober, have at it, but until she's sober, NO!!!!! If she keeps wheedling you about it, she is trying to coerce you, and you should have her leave. You have the right to say NO.

Making the guy responsible in that situation might encourage the whole idea of men having consent options, as well.
As a temporary measure until our culture catches up to this idea, this rule? Meh. I'm having a hard time having a problem with it.
If the girl wants to get laid that badly, she can do it sober.
Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.


Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.

Yeah, that will go well on the whole....
 
2014-07-09 07:52:50 PM

tlars699: OgreMagi: tlars699: Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.

How else am I supposed to meet "the one" other than at the local psychiatric hospital?  And we already know how that turned out.

You could meet them at a gaming convention, or through a D&D group, and then re-meeting at a sushi place 6 years later, like I did.


I haven't been to a gaming convention is god knows how long.  Way back then (during the jurassic), women into gaming was extremely limited.
 
2014-07-09 07:53:56 PM

tlars699: This is demonstrably false as seen in this thread, as provided by Hardinparamedic's quotes. It's more like 4-6% of claims made that are false, per any other report-able crime.

It's very concerning that your gf and all the victim help center people could prove that there were women making false claims, and letting it go through without informing some defense lawyers on where to get some proof at the very least; I mean seriously, 8-9 reports within 8-9 years? and there's a pattern to the lady's reports? I'm surprised that the defense lawyer wouldn't immediately pull up her record for reporting and use that to defend his client.


there is a difference between cases that actually went to court of law, and all the claims that came through their center for help. they obviously got a whole lot of claims that never went anywhere, or that the police would not touch with a ten-foot pole. often times calls were from women requesting the centers help to force the police to act on a claim 'the police were ignoring', and when they checked it was almost invariably that the police had actually investigated and found it didn't have the credibility to pass the sniff test.
i would hope that the false claims actually making it to criminal charges would be winnowed down to single-digit numbers, but the claims made in anger, either for attention, to throw blame for infidelity elsewhere, or whatever, are very much higher.
 
2014-07-09 07:54:25 PM

Elliot8654: Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.

Yeah, that will go well on the whole....


Exactly my point, which has been repeatedly ignored.  Drunk people make stupid choices.  Drunk guys faced with naked boobies saying "fark me" will only make one choice.
 
2014-07-09 08:04:19 PM

brimed03: You opened the discussion to the *general* topic of rape and rape allegations. You don't get to revert back to the specific when someone's point is too hard for you to handle.


FAIL

You didn't click on the link where you say I "opened" the topic. So your claim is a strawman.
 
2014-07-09 08:07:12 PM

KawaiiNot: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

Seriously, I wonder this too. Are more parents failing at raising their boys to be real men these days? It was not an epidemic back when I went to college and was in the military. It happened but it was much more rare.


When did rape and military service become mutually exclusive?

everypainterpaintshimself.com
 
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