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(New York Sun)   1) Write byzantine sex-assault regulations for colleges 2) Accept high-dollar job helping colleges evade byzantine sex-assault regulations 3) Profit 4) Repeat   (nysun.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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7144 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jul 2014 at 3:04 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-07-09 02:02:47 PM  
Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-07-09 02:52:41 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]


I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.
 
2014-07-09 03:07:06 PM  
Haha, had to look up byzantine; thought it was a new drug.
 
2014-07-09 03:07:16 PM  
troll headline is trolly

mra Boobieser is mra

nothing to see here
 
2014-07-09 03:08:14 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]


Congratulations on two items:

1)  Demonstrating the fallacy of misleading vividness in a nearly perfect way.

2)  Justifying your favorite tag of "Sexist Prick" for at least the third time in the last week.

I commend you.  March on!
 
2014-07-09 03:09:49 PM  
Just in any 'em is great.
 
2014-07-09 03:11:35 PM  
Sexual 'assault' laws need a major revamping. I know a guy that spent 5 years in prison because he broke up with a girl and her Daddykins filed charges even though he knew they'd been farking under his roof for 2 years and approved - until the break up.

BONUS: They were the same age, but under 18.

/ruined the poor guy's life
//he's now officially a sexual predator
 
2014-07-09 03:12:11 PM  
Khellendros: Justifying your favorite tag of "Sexist Prick"

what's wrong with being sexy?
 
2014-07-09 03:13:48 PM  
Next up, outsourcing rape. It's the Indian thing to do.
 
2014-07-09 03:15:04 PM  
I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?
 
2014-07-09 03:15:37 PM  
Really $150k a year salary is called profiteering???
 
2014-07-09 03:16:06 PM  
One thread before a false equivalency shiathead goes off on false accusations.

I think anyone complaining about false accusations is making false accusations of false accusations and should go to jail until they can prove otherwise.
 
2014-07-09 03:16:26 PM  

gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.


I lost a semester of college because of a false rape accusation, actually. Not the end of the world, but still. There's also the whole "getting locked up and having no real idea why" part, it was a very scary five days.
 
2014-07-09 03:17:22 PM  

monoski: Really $150k a year salary is called profiteering???


Well, that was one way to out yourself as part of the 1%. Nice. job.
 
2014-07-09 03:17:39 PM  

ultraholland: Khellendros: Justifying your favorite tag of "Sexist Prick"

what's wrong with being sexy?


Makes men rape you?
 
2014-07-09 03:18:37 PM  
To be fair, if these regulations were actually 'Byzantine', they would involve gouging someone's eyes out, or cutting off their nose/tongue, and being unbelievably arrogant and superior.  Oh, and being very fickle and combative about your particular version of Christianity.
 
2014-07-09 03:18:44 PM  

JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?


What's going on is that women, on campuses and off, get raped now and got raped in the past at a much higher rate than people think.
 
2014-07-09 03:18:45 PM  

mdeesnuts: Sexual 'assault' laws need a major revamping. I know a guy that spent 5 years in prison because he broke up with a girl and her Daddykins filed charges even though he knew they'd been farking under his roof for 2 years and approved - until the break up.

BONUS: They were the same age, but under 18.

/ruined the poor guy's life
//he's now officially a sexual predator


I've heard of similar cases. I have a couple questions:

1. What state was this in?
2. Did the defense bring up the fact that the dad had approved of the sexual relationship until the breakup?
3. Was there a complainant? (In most jurisdictions I know about, a complainant--aka victim--is required in order to prrosecute cases where the alleged assailant is older than 21 and the victim is under the age of consent.)
4. The legal system sometimes sucks. But aren't there ways to get off the sex offender list?
 
jvl
2014-07-09 03:18:56 PM  

JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?


The problem is the Administration decided it would be swell to write all-new regulations as to what constitutes rape and force the new rules on colleges.

If the current definition of rape is insufficient, the Admin should write some new farking laws and get them passed. A partial fix through regulation is just all kinds of stupid.
 
2014-07-09 03:19:02 PM  

gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.


It's still a serious, although separate problem.  The entire subject is serious, and has consequences.  False accusations should be dealt with harshly.

On to the main point:  Ladies: do not go to a college administrator if you are raped.  Go to the police.
 
2014-07-09 03:19:17 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]


Do you do this in every farking thread about women?
 
2014-07-09 03:20:38 PM  

thaduke: To be fair, if these regulations were actually 'Byzantine', they would involve gouging someone's eyes out, or cutting off their nose/tongue, and being unbelievably arrogant and superior.  Oh, and being very fickle and combative about your particular version of Christianity.

Feminism.

Change one word and that is a fitting description for most liberal arts colleges these days.
 
2014-07-09 03:22:27 PM  
"evade", Subby?

Judging from the article, more like "comply with".
 
2014-07-09 03:23:00 PM  

JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?


I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.

"Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it.  Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".
 
Ant
2014-07-09 03:25:11 PM  

JackieRabbit: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates?


* We are using a definition of rape other than the one used by Republican legislators
* Women are less afraid of reporting rape
 
2014-07-09 03:25:36 PM  

mdeesnuts: Sexual 'assault' laws need a major revamping. I know a guy that spent 5 years in prison because he broke up with a girl and her Daddykins filed charges even though he knew they'd been farking under his roof for 2 years and approved - until the break up.

BONUS: They were the same age, but under 18.

/ruined the poor guy's life
//he's now officially a sexual predator


Yes it does... Some of the things you can end up getting put on the list for are ridiculous. Not only that, but a lot of the lists don't have details, so you can't even make an informed judgement.

As for the statutory rape thing, the states that have clauses that don't make it SR if the guy is within 3 years of the girl's age and they're both over 14 or 15(Don't remember these exact details, but you get the gist of it) have a much more sane setup. It also leads to a ridiculous stigma. People call a guy a "pedophile" if the girl is under 18, but that's where they stop thinking. She could be 17 years, 365.24 days old, and since she's not 18, it's "sick" behavior, but if they girl is 18 years and one second, it's suddenly "OK"... I mean, it's not like the "Sexually mature" fairy arrives on the eve of your 18th birthday.

So yeah, I agree that there are plenty of cases where people who don't belong on the registries get there...
 
2014-07-09 03:25:55 PM  

gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.


I don't believe that's true.
 
2014-07-09 03:26:21 PM  
I just skimmed the article, but I didn't see anything associated with Byzantium. Was Subby trying to say Draconian?
 
2014-07-09 03:29:23 PM  

Crewmannumber6: I just skimmed the article, but I didn't see anything associated with Byzantium. Was Subby trying to say Draconian?


What does Harry Potter have to do with rape?
 
2014-07-09 03:29:26 PM  

Ant: * We are using a definition of rape other than the one used by Republican legislators


www.thelookingspoon.com
And a few others.
 
Ant
2014-07-09 03:29:45 PM  

KawaiiNot: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

Seriously, I wonder this too. Are more parents failing at raising their boys to be real men these days? It was not an epidemic back when I went to college and was in the military. It happened but it was much more rare.


It was not more rare, they just got away with it back then.
 
2014-07-09 03:31:25 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]


Ooooh!! I know! Women have falsely accused men of assault and rape before, so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases all of the ACTUAL attacks.

Did I move on to the bonus round?
 
Ant
2014-07-09 03:31:39 PM  

fireclown: Ant: * We are using a definition of rape other than the one used by Republican legislators

[www.thelookingspoon.com image 425x499]
And a few others.


I was going to include her in there too. fark you, Whoopie. Drugging a 13 year old girl and farking her up the ass in your hot tub is still rape, even if you do happen to be a Hollywood director.
 
2014-07-09 03:33:36 PM  

JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?


I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after. And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.
 
2014-07-09 03:34:46 PM  

gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.


An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

spiritplumber: I lost a semester of college because of a false rape accusation, actually. Not the end of the world, but still. There's also the whole "getting locked up and having no real idea why" part, it was a very scary five days.


Brother let me give you some advice. I've never been accused of rape but the politics of having sex with someone that you meet at work means basically that one of you is going to have to go. Just avoid the whole situation. Lie if you have to. If they are harassing you for a date, tell them you are seeing someone.

I know that school isn't work but it's coming to the point where the same attitude applies. Don't date from school or work; just don't do it.
 
2014-07-09 03:35:14 PM  

Khellendros: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.

"Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it.  Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".


I can tell you with no reservation whatsoever that rape was NEVER tolerated when I attended college a quarter-centry ago. So don't give me the "it isn't tolerated now the way it once was." Because this is a myth; it never happened.
 
2014-07-09 03:35:49 PM  

Ishkur: Do you do this in every farking thread about women?


I thought this was about law, injustice and money not about women.

Is every thread about women to you?
 
2014-07-09 03:35:59 PM  

Ishkur: JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after. And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.


So yeah. That last paragraph;

"Here guys, here is a list of things you should do even if you don't want to. But if a girl doesn't want to do something, too bad".
 
2014-07-09 03:36:01 PM  

JackieRabbit: I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?


Yeah what is with that. Women all of a sudden now think that when they are completely drunk or passed out and a guy takes advantage of her, have sex with him it's rape!

Can you believe it!

/You're an idiot.
 
2014-07-09 03:36:02 PM  
Undocumented Sex?
 
Ant
2014-07-09 03:36:34 PM  

JackieRabbit: Khellendros: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.

"Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it.  Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

I can tell you with no reservation whatsoever that rape was NEVER tolerated when I attended college a quarter-centry ago. So don't give me the "it isn't tolerated now the way it once was." Because this is a myth; it never happened.


Define rape
 
2014-07-09 03:37:34 PM  

Ant: fireclown: Ant: * We are using a definition of rape other than the one used by Republican legislators

[www.thelookingspoon.com image 425x499]
And a few others.

I was going to include her in there too. fark you, Whoopie. Drugging a 13 year old girl and farking her up the ass in your hot tub is still rape, even if you do happen to be a Hollywood director.


The insane thing is that a petition was circulated that indicated support from individuals in the movie industry, and PEOPLE SIGNED IT.

Click here for a list of bad people.
 
2014-07-09 03:39:03 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com


So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?
 
2014-07-09 03:39:38 PM  

spiritplumber: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

I lost a semester of college because of a false rape accusation, actually. Not the end of the world, but still. There's also the whole "getting locked up and having no real idea why" part, it was a very scary five days.


Something similar happened to me. She hadn't gone to the police yet but seemed to be moving in that direction. Luckily I had a few things on her that she preferred be kept private and we were able to come to an understanding.
 
2014-07-09 03:39:48 PM  

maram500: mdeesnuts: Sexual 'assault' laws need a major revamping. I know a guy that spent 5 years in prison because he broke up with a girl and her Daddykins filed charges even though he knew they'd been farking under his roof for 2 years and approved - until the break up.

BONUS: They were the same age, but under 18.

/ruined the poor guy's life
//he's now officially a sexual predator

I've heard of similar cases. I have a couple questions:

1. What state was this in?
2. Did the defense bring up the fact that the dad had approved of the sexual relationship until the breakup?
3. Was there a complainant? (In most jurisdictions I know about, a complainant--aka victim--is required in order to prrosecute cases where the alleged assailant is older than 21 and the victim is under the age of consent.)
4. The legal system sometimes sucks. But aren't there ways to get off the sex offender list?


Georgia. I don't know the details of the case, I've met the guy through a neighbor and never got into all the details. I do know he eventually found/hired a good lawyer that got him out early. Probably because of some of the things you mentioned.

It was just a case in point on how absurd things are. My personal 'favorite' is getting on the sex offender list for pissing in a parking deck. Not off of it, on a wall in the corner. I know of a guy that happened to. It was in Athens and I assume the drunken pisser was a real prick to the cop, but still...

/another example of why I stick to my "be nice and respectful to the bully in the uniform" policy
//they can make your life a small living hell on a whim
 
2014-07-09 03:39:56 PM  

Ant: Define rape


To that idiot, getting a girl passed out on drinks then having sex with her is not rape.
 
2014-07-09 03:39:57 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: -hyped false reports.

An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com


How, about we accept that the justice system already takes the idea of false rape accusations too seriously, by a measurable and objective margin?

I get the MRAs like being oppressed, but every time they open their mouths about it, they're wrong.  You get to be wrong today.

But, still, we're listening for your non-misogynistic-and-pro-rape solution to this "problem" that's so common.
 
2014-07-09 03:41:28 PM  

Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?


So one way or another someone's life gets ruined when rape claims occur.

The rape happened:the woman is scarred for life.
The rape didn't happen: the guy essentially has to try to restart his life elsewhere.
 
2014-07-09 03:43:08 PM  

Corvus: Ant: Define rape

To that idiot, getting a girl passed out on drinks then having sex with her is not rape.


Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.
 
2014-07-09 03:44:40 PM  

Elliot8654: So yeah. That last paragraph;

"Here guys, here is a list of things you should do even if you don't want to. But if a girl doesn't want to do something, too bad".


No -- do these things if you don't want to be accused of rape. Or just have a rumor going around her friends that you suck in bed. Up to you.
 
2014-07-09 03:44:48 PM  

Khellendros: I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.


Why not both?
 
2014-07-09 03:45:12 PM  

Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?


Because it is a principle of our justice system that it is better that a guilty person go free than an innocent person be imprisoned.
 
2014-07-09 03:45:37 PM  

Mikey1969: Ooooh!! I know! Women have falsely accused men of assault and rape before, so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases all of the ACTUAL attacks.

Did I move on to the bonus round?


Was your mother raped on campus and was the accused not thrown out of college?

No?

Then it's not germane to the discussion.
 
2014-07-09 03:45:59 PM  

Ishkur: JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after. And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.


There were roughly 80 years in all of human history when women weren't treated as breathing fleshlights
 
2014-07-09 03:46:08 PM  

JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.


Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.
 
2014-07-09 03:47:28 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: So yeah. That last paragraph;

"Here guys, here is a list of things you should do even if you don't want to. But if a girl doesn't want to do something, too bad".

No -- do these things if you don't want to be accused of rape. Or just have a rumor going around her friends that you suck in bed. Up to you.


Wait??

So if I don't go down on a girl and if I don't feel like cuddling, she may accuse me of rape?

What's next? "Well he was asking for it. He didn't cuddle."

Seriously, no. You get accused of rape when you have Sex with someone when they say no and don't want it. Not when you don't do it the way they like it.
 
2014-07-09 03:48:20 PM  

thaduke: To be fair, if these regulations were actually 'Byzantine', they would involve gouging someone's eyes out, or cutting off their nose/tongue, and being unbelievably arrogant and superior.  Oh, and being very fickle and combative about your particular version of Christianity.


And then sitting back as Italians and Turks gang-rape you repeatedly...
 
2014-07-09 03:48:32 PM  

Mikey1969: so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases


the problem was not the rape.  the problem was that your mom had a farking psycho for a boyfriend.
 
2014-07-09 03:48:55 PM  

ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.


I'm never heard of a court invalidating either a wedding or a contract because the person was drunk when they signed the paper. You have some case citation on that point?
 
2014-07-09 03:49:21 PM  

Elliot8654: Ishkur: Elliot8654: So yeah. That last paragraph;

"Here guys, here is a list of things you should do even if you don't want to. But if a girl doesn't want to do something, too bad".

No -- do these things if you don't want to be accused of rape. Or just have a rumor going around her friends that you suck in bed. Up to you.

Wait??

So if I don't go down on a girl and if I don't feel like cuddling, she may accuse me of rape?

What's next? "Well he was asking for it. He didn't cuddle."

Seriously, no. You get accused of rape when you have Sex with someone when they say no and don't want it. Not when you don't do it the way they like it.


Well, anything is possible, but that's a fictionalized scenario that is so improbable and so out of line with how actual rape accusations work, than you can tell it's the paranoid fantasy of deluded mind.
 
2014-07-09 03:49:51 PM  

Corvus: JackieRabbit: I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Yeah what is with that. Women all of a sudden now think that when they are completely drunk or passed out and a guy takes advantage of her, have sex with him it's rape!

Can you believe it!

/You're an idiot.


That's not what I am talking about. Yeah, farking a passed out woman is rape. No one in their right mind is going to deny this. However, one school I recently read about has a plan to put a new regulation in place. If two people have consensual sex, but the woman has been drinking - not drunk and passed out - just drinking, the man is guilty of rape. The woman can argue that she consented all she wants, but it makes no difference. This is just not right.

Ant: Define rape


I think this is the problem. We keep redefining what it means for someone to be raped. To me, forceable sexual contact without consent is most assuredly rape. Drugging someone so that they cannot say no or repel the advance is rape. Coercing someone who does not have the mental capacity to consent is also rape. Getting a bit too drunk at a frat party and having sex with a guy you would not normally have sex with and then having "buyer's remorse" is not rape. It's stupid, but it isn't rape.

When we denigrate what rape is, we do a great disservice to those people who actually are raped.
 
2014-07-09 03:49:55 PM  

worlddan: ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.

I'm never heard of a court invalidating either a wedding or a contract because the person was drunk when they signed the paper. You have some case citation on that point?


Exempt from financial deals because you were drunk?

I need to sue to get back every bar tab I ever paid!!!
 
2014-07-09 03:50:06 PM  

worlddan: I'm never heard of a court invalidating either a wedding or a contract because the person was drunk when they signed the paper. You have some case citation on that point?


http://smallbusiness.chron.com/laws-legal-contracts-mental-impairmen t- 61128.html

Ready and waiting with the contract cite.
 
2014-07-09 03:50:24 PM  

Elliot8654: Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?

So one way or another someone's life gets ruined when rape claims occur.

The rape happened:the woman is scarred for life.
The rape didn't happen: the guy essentially has to try to restart his life elsewhere.


No you have courts judge if the evidence says someone is guilty or not. You don't just make it legal to rape women.
 
2014-07-09 03:51:02 PM  

ikanreed: worlddan: I'm never heard of a court invalidating either a wedding or a contract because the person was drunk when they signed the paper. You have some case citation on that point?

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/laws-legal-contracts-mental-impairmen t- 61128.html

Ready and waiting with the contract cite.


http://smallbusiness.chron.com/laws-legal-contracts-mental-impairmen t- 61128.html

And let's follow that up with an annulment cite for Texas, in particular.
 
2014-07-09 03:52:07 PM  

JackieRabbit: Corvus: JackieRabbit: I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Yeah what is with that. Women all of a sudden now think that when they are completely drunk or passed out and a guy takes advantage of her, have sex with him it's rape!

Can you believe it!

/You're an idiot.

That's not what I am talking about. Yeah, farking a passed out woman is rape. No one in their right mind is going to deny this. However, one school I recently read about has a plan to put a new regulation in place. If two people have consensual sex, but the woman has been drinking - not drunk and passed out - just drinking, the man is guilty of rape. The woman can argue that she consented all she wants, but it makes no difference. This is just not right.


Oh sorry that's not what your talking about? Because that's exactly what you said. You just said if the woman get's drunk it's still not rape. You just said that. Now you are pretending that's not what you said.
 
2014-07-09 03:52:10 PM  
Oh Jesus this thread is full of MRAs.

/quit
 
2014-07-09 03:52:31 PM  

Elliot8654: Exempt from financial deals because you were drunk?

I need to sue to get back every bar tab I ever paid!!!


Oh, look, scale and situation matters(guess what courts do with rape cases, really!).  You buy a house while drunk?  Even if you pay cash, it can be invalidated as a transaction.
 
2014-07-09 03:53:18 PM  

Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?

So one way or another someone's life gets ruined when rape claims occur.

The rape happened:the woman is scarred for life.
The rape didn't happen: the guy essentially has to try to restart his life elsewhere.

No you have courts judge if the evidence says someone is guilty or not. You don't just make it legal to rape women.


Agreed.
Except the small problem where when the case is dismissed, the guy still gets run out of town.
Last time I checked, rape is illegal. No one at all is saying it shouldn't be, and I'd you think they are, you are an imbecile.
 
2014-07-09 03:53:42 PM  

JackieRabbit: That's not what I am talking about.


Funny then some one must have stolen your account because you said so here:

JackieRabbit: This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape.


You said right there that if the girl is drunk it's not rape. You said that.
 
2014-07-09 03:53:47 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Oh Jesus this thread is full of MRAs.

/quit


You just made it proportionally fuller of them.  But have a nice day, you shouldn't suffer just because the rest of us struggle futilely to fix their broken ideological systems.
 
2014-07-09 03:54:16 PM  

Elliot8654: So if I don't go down on a girl and if I don't feel like cuddling, she may accuse me of rape?


No, she'll accuse you of being an awful douchebag who's bad in bed (which you probably are as evidenced by your resistance), and that may be worse.

If you want to get to homeplate you have to round the bases. And to do that, you have to learn how to hit the damn ball.

Practice on a peach.
 
2014-07-09 03:54:40 PM  

Elliot8654: Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?

So one way or another someone's life gets ruined when rape claims occur.

The rape happened:the woman is scarred for life.
The rape didn't happen: the guy essentially has to try to restart his life elsewhere.

No you have courts judge if the evidence says someone is guilty or not. You don't just make it legal to rape women.

Agreed.
Except the small problem where when the case is dismissed, the guy still gets run out of town.
Last time I checked, rape is illegal. No one at all is saying it shouldn't be, and I'd you think they are, you are an imbecile.


People in this very thread are saying that if woman is drunk and a guy has sex with her that shouldn't be considered rape.

They are in this thread right here.
 
2014-07-09 03:55:30 PM  

ikanreed: Elliot8654: Exempt from financial deals because you were drunk?

I need to sue to get back every bar tab I ever paid!!!

Oh, look, scale and situation matters(guess what courts do with rape cases, really!).  You buy a house while drunk?  Even if you pay cash, it can be invalidated as a transaction.


Do they imprison the person who sold you the house?
They did take advantage of you.
No?
Then how about we agree that rape should be handled differently than buying a car.
 
2014-07-09 03:56:14 PM  

ikanreed: worlddan: I'm never heard of a court invalidating either a wedding or a contract because the person was drunk when they signed the paper. You have some case citation on that point?

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/laws-legal-contracts-mental-impairmen t- 61128.html

Ready and waiting with the contract cite.


Being drunk is not equal to having a  mental impairment. The legal definition of DWI in my state .08.  Such a person is legally drunk. They can't legally drive a car but they can legally sign a contract. Now is it possible for someone to be so drunk that the cannot comprehend what they are doing? Yes. But not every case of drunkenness is equal to mental impairment.
 
2014-07-09 03:56:18 PM  

Elliot8654: Do they imprison the person who sold you the house?
They did take advantage of you.
No?
Then how about we agree that rape should be handled differently than buying a car.


It can sure as hell result in prison time if they intentionally got you drunk first, yes.

That's fraud, bro.
 
2014-07-09 03:57:49 PM  

Ishkur: And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. ...It's not about you. ...


wait what? what about the girls that like some of the shiat you see online? you're missing out.


/good times.
 
2014-07-09 03:58:16 PM  

worlddan: Being drunk is not equal to having a mental impairment. The legal definition of DWI in my state .08. Such a person is legally drunk. They can't legally drive a car but they can legally sign a contract. Now is it possible for someone to be so drunk that the cannot comprehend what they are doing? Yes. But not every case of drunkenness is equal to mental impairment.


A person who is using drugs or alcohol could be temporarily impaired. Signing a contract with a supplier while you're out drinking might be one such situation where this issue could arise.

From the cite I just gave.  It is totally a possible reason to annul a contract.
 
2014-07-09 03:58:21 PM  

Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?

So one way or another someone's life gets ruined when rape claims occur.

The rape happened:the woman is scarred for life.
The rape didn't happen: the guy essentially has to try to restart his life elsewhere.

No you have courts judge if the evidence says someone is guilty or not. You don't just make it legal to rape women.

Agreed.
Except the small problem where when the case is dismissed, the guy still gets run out of town.
Last time I checked, rape is illegal. No one at all is saying it shouldn't be, and I'd you think they are, you are an imbecile.

People in this very thread are saying that if woman is drunk and a guy has sex with her that shouldn't be considered rape.

They are in this thread right here.


I've had drunken Sex with girls before. The next day we have an awkward chat, age that wasn't the smartest idea, and go on our way.

If she is incapable of giving consent, then yeah, rape.
But if she is drunk, and she is peeling my clothes off...
I'd I tell her to stop and she won't, who is raping who?
 
2014-07-09 03:59:40 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Oh Jesus this thread is full of MRAs.

/quit


Oh, they've been plastering these on college campuses.

manboobz.files.wordpress.com

And, in the event someone wants to say they don't, here's AVfM's Paul Elam in his own words:

I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks ...  paying their bar tab with the pussy pass. And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m..  Sometimes both of these women end up being the "victims" of rape.
But are these women asking to get raped?
In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.
They are freaking begging for it.
Damn near demanding it.
And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won't change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I'M A STUPID, CONNIVING biatch - PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.
 
2014-07-09 03:59:46 PM  

ikanreed: How, about we accept that the justice system already takes the idea of false rape accusations too seriously, by a measurable and objective margin?

I get the MRAs like being oppressed, but every time they open their mouths about it, they're wrong.  You get to be wrong today.

But, still, we're listening for your non-misogynistic-and-pro-rape solution to this "problem" that's so common.


If it wasn't for me providing helpful opposition, this would be a bro-fest high fiving each other and wanking over their desired mob justice.

Despite this, I am not going to admit to playing devil's advocate because actually I can see the problem with both sides of this issue.

Other things that you say are the topic of some other thread. I will try to stay on point if you do the same.
 
2014-07-09 04:01:08 PM  

Elliot8654: I've had drunken Sex with girls before. The next day we have an awkward chat, age that wasn't the smartest idea, and go on our way.

If she is incapable of giving consent, then yeah, rape.
But if she is drunk, and she is peeling my clothes off...
I'd I tell her to stop and she won't, who is raping who?


You mean when the other person doesn't see themselves as having been taken advantage of, it's not exactly the same?

Whoa.

You mean, in spite of the fact that you did that, no one came and arrested you, because rape accusations aren't random and coming from nowhere?

Whoa.
 
2014-07-09 04:02:00 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Mikey1969: Ooooh!! I know! Women have falsely accused men of assault and rape before, so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases all of the ACTUAL attacks.

Did I move on to the bonus round?

Was your mother raped on campus and was the accused not thrown out of college?

No?

Then it's not germane to the discussion.


It IS because you are trying to use SOME false claims to throw the data out the window. I pointed to another example that even includes rape and assault. I bet I can find someone who was wrongly convicted of rape and murder and had a lot more happen than just getting kicked out of college if you'd like.

Some people making false claims doesn't let real offenders off of the hook, sorry.


frepnog: Mikey1969: so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases

the problem was not the rape.  the problem was that your mom had a farking psycho for a boyfriend.


Guy was a farking psycho, that's for sure. I managed to forget a LOT of the time before I was 5, but I still have memories of that motherfarker blowing up. I think he's still here in town, although he's pushing 70 now. I've debated if I should pay him a less than friendly visit, but so far, I've decided that it's not worth it.
 
2014-07-09 04:02:09 PM  

Corvus: Oh sorry that's not what your talking about? Because that's exactly what you said. You just said if the woman get's drunk it's still not rape. You just said that. Now you are pretending that's not what you said.


I said nothing of the sort. I said having consensual sex while drunk is not rape. To suggest that just because one is drunk one cannot grant consent is absurd. Using that logic, if one is drunk and asks for a ride home, one can later claim to have been kidnapped.

So you are saying that if a married woman gets drunk, seduces, and has sex with her husband/boyfriend/whatever, he raped her? Being drunk will lower one's inhibitions and may lead them to do things they would not normally do. Sometimes this is consenting to have sex with someone you wouldn't normally have sex with. Having consensual sex with a guy and then accusing him of rape just because you were drunk is reprehensible and immoral.

But I can see that my serious question has brought out the Internet morons who do not know reason when they see it. So I leave this thread to the trolls.
 
2014-07-09 04:02:34 PM  
Damn, fark has just been inundated with MRA derp lately.
 
2014-07-09 04:03:22 PM  

ikanreed: worlddan: Being drunk is not equal to having a mental impairment. The legal definition of DWI in my state .08. Such a person is legally drunk. They can't legally drive a car but they can legally sign a contract. Now is it possible for someone to be so drunk that the cannot comprehend what they are doing? Yes. But not every case of drunkenness is equal to mental impairment.

A person who is using drugs or alcohol could be temporarily impaired. Signing a contract with a supplier while you're out drinking might be one such situation where this issue could arise.

From the cite I just gave.  It is totally a possible reason to annul a contract.


The key word in that sentence is "could". It only speaks to ability, not to certainty. In fact, getting a contract annulled for any such reasons is exceptionally rare. Now back to my orginal question: where are your court citations? See, court citations are not about what is hypothetically possible but about what actually happened. Come back to me in a year or two after you've researched the issue on Lexis with real cases where real contracts were voided because the person was really drunk when they signed them.  Good Luck.
 
2014-07-09 04:03:26 PM  

hardinparamedic: And, in the event someone wants to say they don't, here's AVfM's Paul Elam in his own words:

I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks ... paying their bar tab with the pussy pass. And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m.. Sometimes both of these women end up being the "victims" of rape.
But are these women asking to get raped?
In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.
They are freaking begging for it.
Damn near demanding it.
And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won't change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I'M A STUPID, CONNIVING biatch - PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.


This is no different from the interviews I've read with convicted serial rapists.  They frame things exactly the same way.
 
2014-07-09 04:04:57 PM  

hardinparamedic: I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks ... paying their bar tab with the pussy pass. And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m.. Sometimes both of these women end up being the "victims" of rape.
But are these women asking to get raped?
In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.
They are freaking begging for it.
Damn near demanding it.
And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won't change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I'M A STUPID, CONNIVING biatch - PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.


Holy crap.  That's the most disturbing thing I've read in quite a while.
 
2014-07-09 04:04:57 PM  

ikanreed: Elliot8654: I've had drunken Sex with girls before. The next day we have an awkward chat, age that wasn't the smartest idea, and go on our way.

If she is incapable of giving consent, then yeah, rape.
But if she is drunk, and she is peeling my clothes off...
I'd I tell her to stop and she won't, who is raping who?

You mean when the other person doesn't see themselves as having been taken advantage of, it's not exactly the same?

Whoa.

You mean, in spite of the fact that you did that, no one came and arrested you, because rape accusations aren't random and coming from nowhere?

Whoa.


Both drunk and made a bad decision. Can I charge her with rape too?

Why is it everyone is always totally one sided?
If a woman wants equality, fine. We are all equally responsible for our actions.
 
2014-07-09 04:06:32 PM  

JackieRabbit: I can tell you with no reservation whatsoever that rape was NEVER tolerated when I attended college a quarter-centry ago. So don't give me the "it isn't tolerated now the way it once was." Because this is a myth; it never happened.


It happened - it just wasn't reported, there weren't large support and legal movements to ensure it was publicized and punished, and there weren't massive support networks stretching across the country to assist victims and compile statistics on the subject.  Universities look bad when this comes to light.

And at your school, I'm willing to bet drunken parties were happening every other night.  And at those parties, I'm sure there were women who were taken advantage of while in an unconscious or semi-conscious state - during or after that party.  Sometimes with forethought by the men, sometimes the opportunity presented itself and was taken.  And for 20 years, the women and men involved make up excuses like "I was drunk, it just happened", or "I had no idea it happened until the next day", or 20 other excuses that are painted for it.  They gather up their clothes, go home, and try to forget about it.

The tolerance level for that has dropped in recent years.  It's no longer an issue of "we were drunk".  That was used to excuse things.  Now, the question is "did she consent?"  Lucid, able to form coherent thought and clear intent.

If the answer isn't an unqualified "yes", then, sir, you have a serious farking problem.
 
2014-07-09 04:06:49 PM  
Congrats, subby.  Your high school English teacher will be proud you finally got to use it in a sentence.
 
2014-07-09 04:08:17 PM  

Elliot8654: I've had drunken Sex with girls before. The next day we have an awkward chat, age that wasn't the smartest idea, and go on our way.


So you ARE a douchebag who's awful in bed. I called it.

Get better at pleasing her and you won't have those awkward chats. If the girl feels self-conscious the morning after (or grabs her things and leaves before you wake up and does the walk of shame), you farked up. You are terrible at sex.

But at least you're not a rapist.
 
2014-07-09 04:10:05 PM  

worlddan: The key word in that sentence is "could". It only speaks to ability, not to certainty. In fact, getting a contract annulled for any such reasons is exceptionally rare. Now back to my orginal question: where are your court citations? See, court citations are not about what is hypothetically possible but about what actually happened. Come back to me in a year or two after you've researched the issue on Lexis with real cases where real contracts were voided because the person was really drunk when they signed them. Good Luck.


I reject your oddly specific demand as unnecessary.  Legal summaries are all that's necessary for backing up a reasonable claim.

It reflects a denialist position, rather than an actual position.  You assert an arbitrary threshold for evidence in a conversational debate, and supply no evidence of any sort to back your own position.  It reflects a laziness and inevitable intransigence if your arbitrary level were met.  Sorry, you're complete shiat.


Elliot8654: Both drunk and made a bad decision. Can I charge her with rape too?


If you felt taken advantage of, yes.   Christ, this isn't actually hard.  If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

You're trying to builda fictional fantasy where women are constantly out to get you.
 
2014-07-09 04:10:56 PM  

Elliot8654: Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?

So one way or another someone's life gets ruined when rape claims occur.

The rape happened:the woman is scarred for life.
The rape didn't happen: the guy essentially has to try to restart his life elsewhere.

No you have courts judge if the evidence says someone is guilty or not. You don't just make it legal to rape women.

Agreed.
Except the small problem where when the case is dismissed, the guy still gets run out of town.
Last time I checked, rape is illegal. No one at all is saying it shouldn't be, and I'd you think they are, you are an imbecile.

People in this very thread are saying that if woman is drunk and a guy has sex with her that shouldn't be considered rape.

They are in this thread right here.

I've had drunken Sex with girls before. The next day we have an awkward chat, age that wasn't the smartest idea, and go on our way.

If she is incapable of giving consent, then yeah, rape.
But if she is drunk, and she is peeling my clothes off...
I'd I tell her to stop and she won't, who is raping who?


But your not trying to say the laws are changed right to make them more restrictive? You just said no one in this thread was doing it. You are 100% ok with the rape laws how they are written?
 
2014-07-09 04:11:27 PM  

worlddan: monoski: Really $150k a year salary is called profiteering???

Well, that was one way to out yourself as part of the 1%. Nice. job.



Well, no.  That's not an unusual salary for an experienced lawyer, and it's nowhere near being part of the 1%.
 
2014-07-09 04:11:56 PM  

Elliot8654: If she is incapable of giving consent, then yeah, rape.


Isn't "being drunk" usually imply incapable of giving consent?
 
2014-07-09 04:12:23 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: I've had drunken Sex with girls before. The next day we have an awkward chat, age that wasn't the smartest idea, and go on our way.

So you ARE a douchebag who's awful in bed. I called it.

Get better at pleasing her and you won't have those awkward chats. If the girl feels self-conscious the morning after (or grabs her things and leaves before you wake up and does the walk of shame), you farked up. You are terrible at sex.

But at least you're not a rapist.


so in the reverse, if I'm really good at sex, is it not rape now?

She regrets it if it wasn't good?

Damn you really must have led a sheltered life and not made any mistakes. Or maybe you have no idea who I am or what my Sex life has been like, but feel free to judge.
 
2014-07-09 04:13:15 PM  
ikanreed:

It reflects a denialist position, rather than an actual position.  You assert an arbitrary threshold for evidence in a conversational debate, and supply no evidence of any sort to back your own position.  It reflects a laziness and inevitable intransigence if your arbitrary level were met.  Sorry, you're complete shiat.

LOL. Now there is a pouty face translated into words. It actualy takes some craft to do that, so good for you.
 
2014-07-09 04:14:25 PM  

Raoul Eaton: worlddan: monoski: Really $150k a year salary is called profiteering???

Well, that was one way to out yourself as part of the 1%. Nice. job.


Well, no.  That's not an unusual salary for an experienced lawyer, and it's nowhere near being part of the 1%.


So you going to defend greed on the basis of being out of touch? Niiiiiice.
 
2014-07-09 04:14:55 PM  

JackieRabbit: I said nothing of the sort. I said having consensual sex while drunk is not rape. To suggest that just because one is drunk one cannot grant consent is absurd. Using that logic, if one is drunk and asks for a ride home, one can later claim to have been kidnapped.


Altered states are a gray area.
If there's already a relationship between the two people, and if this problem matters to them, they often will have talked about their boundaries.

If there's not... how impaired is the other person? If they're to the point where they have marked difficulty speaking clearly or walking straight, the judgment center of their brain is proper farked (and their memory may not be "recording"). They are walking robots, of a sort. That's generally the level of drunk that people mean when they talk about drunk consent, not "tipsy and merry and bolder than usual".

Being fooled around with while you're stumbling blackout drunk is not a good experience, at all. If it's not rape (and there are good arguments that it is), it's really farking creepy. And yeah, that's regardless of the perpetrator's gender.
 
2014-07-09 04:15:11 PM  

Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Elliot8654: Corvus: Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com

So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?

So one way or another someone's life gets ruined when rape claims occur.

The rape happened:the woman is scarred for life.
The rape didn't happen: the guy essentially has to try to restart his life elsewhere.

No you have courts judge if the evidence says someone is guilty or not. You don't just make it legal to rape women.

Agreed.
Except the small problem where when the case is dismissed, the guy still gets run out of town.
Last time I checked, rape is illegal. No one at all is saying it shouldn't be, and I'd you think they are, you are an imbecile.

People in this very thread are saying that if woman is drunk and a guy has sex with her that shouldn't be considered rape.

They are in this thread right here.

I've had drunken Sex with girls before. The next day we have an awkward chat, age that wasn't the smartest idea, and go on our way.

If she is incapable of giving consent, then yeah, rape.
But if she is drunk, and she is peeling my clothes off...
I'd I tell her to stop and she won't, who is raping who?

But your not trying to say the laws are changed right to make them more restrictive? You just said no one in this thread was doing it. You are 100% ok with the rape laws how they are written?


no, but I thinks the very concept is far too complicated to sum up in a piece of paper what is and is not raped in all cases.

the principles of informed consent alone are so complicated that there are medical professionals who argue that patients are incapable of giving informed consent as they can not fully understand the possible risks associated with what they do.
 
2014-07-09 04:23:36 PM  

Mikey1969: Some people making false claims doesn't let real offenders off of the hook, sorry.


You see mikey this is why my notes on you are 100% correct. Nowhere do I claim to support "real offenders" -only you and the white knight fembot hordes seem to be making this claim.

Anyone pointing out that it is financially lucrative for someone to falsely accuse someone else of rape is akin to 'letting rapists go free' is a false equivalence.

For example Wanetta Gibson made $750,000 after accusing Brian Banks of rape. The only reason she got caught is because she felt remorse.I submit that most women who do this do not feel remorse.
 
2014-07-09 04:24:44 PM  
My beloved wife won't let me date other women, which is what I said "I Do" for .. so, not relevant to my interests.
 
2014-07-09 04:24:52 PM  

Elliot8654: so in the reverse, if I'm really good at sex, is it not rape now?


That's almost an oxymoron. Is there such a thing as a good rapist? If the girl doesn't want it, you can't make her want it. If the girl wants it and you fail to deliver, you're an awful douchebag who's bad in bed.

Since you have admitted having a number of the latter occurrences, that makes you an awful douchebag who's bad in bed. Complaining to me isn't going to help things. Read some DH Lawrence.
 
2014-07-09 04:28:45 PM  

worlddan: monoski: Really $150k a year salary is called profiteering???

Well, that was one way to out yourself as part of the 1%. Nice. job.


are you trolling? thats approximately what an average job that *requires actual skill and expensive education* pays. and after debt, and healthy family expenses its not even that much. 1%er makes about half a mil iirc
 
2014-07-09 04:29:17 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Mikey1969: Some people making false claims doesn't let real offenders off of the hook, sorry.

You see mikey this is why my notes on you are 100% correct. Nowhere do I claim to support "real offenders" -only you and the white knight fembot hordes seem to be making this claim.

Anyone pointing out that it is financially lucrative for someone to falsely accuse someone else of rape is akin to 'letting rapists go free' is a false equivalence.

For example Wanetta Gibson made $750,000 after accusing Brian Banks of rape. The only reason she got caught is because she felt remorse.I submit that most women who do this do not feel remorse.


So, what we've learned here today according to The People in Power are Stupid:

1) The majority of rapes reported are false.
2) Those false rapes are as a rule motivated by financial gain.
3) Most women who report to be raped are remorseless sociopaths.

Yeah. Okay.
 
2014-07-09 04:31:54 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: so in the reverse, if I'm really good at sex, is it not rape now?

That's almost an oxymoron. Is there such a thing as a good rapist? If the girl doesn't want it, you can't make her want it. If the girl wants it and you fail to deliver, you're an awful douchebag who's bad in bed.

Since you have admitted having a number of the latter occurrences, that makes you an awful douchebag who's bad in bed. Complaining to me isn't going to help things. Read some DH Lawrence.


I would offer to change your mind, but 2 problems:
1) no matter what I say you won't believe me, even if I had other women I had slept with write in here how good I actually am.
2) if I tried to prove it, you don't want it. That would be this thing called rape, which is bad.
 
2014-07-09 04:34:41 PM  

worlddan: LOL. Now there is a pouty face translated into words. It actualy takes some craft to do that, so good for you.



Translation "I've got absolutely no credibility, better pretend you're angry about it"

The fact that you can't admit that you're completely and utterly wrong isn't my problem, bro.  It's easy to cite your own sources.
 
2014-07-09 04:34:56 PM  
"[the] vast majority of female students allegedly raped on campus are actually voicing buyer's remorse from alcohol-fueled promiscuous behavior involving murky lines of consent on both sides. It's true. It's their get-out-of-guilt-free card, you know, like Monopoly."

-Barbara Kay, speaker at the first International Conference on Men's Rights hosted in Detroit last week.
 
2014-07-09 04:35:25 PM  

Ishkur: If the girl wants it and you fail to deliver, you're an awful douchebag who's bad in bed.


More lies. Who are you white knighting exactly?

Again, the only reason the accused got off was because the alleged victim felt remorse. Had she stuck to her story she could have sued somebody for money and won.
 
2014-07-09 04:35:26 PM  

Elliot8654: I would offer to change your mind, but 2 problems:
1) no matter what I say you won't believe me, even if I had other women I had slept with write in here how good I actually am.
2) if I tried to prove it, you don't want it. That would be this thing called rape, which is bad.


Look at that fragile little ego.
 
2014-07-09 04:36:52 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Mikey1969: Some people making false claims doesn't let real offenders off of the hook, sorry.

You see mikey this is why my notes on you are 100% correct. Nowhere do I claim to support "real offenders" -only you and the white knight fembot hordes seem to be making this claim.

Anyone pointing out that it is financially lucrative for someone to falsely accuse someone else of rape is akin to 'letting rapists go free' is a false equivalence.

For example Wanetta Gibson made $750,000 after accusing Brian Banks of rape. The only reason she got caught is because she felt remorse.I submit that most women who do this do not feel remorse.


Look, if you are going to open with "But people have falsely accused others of rape", and then backed it up with another "See, this woman made a false accusation", then you are going to be seen as a rape apologist, especially since that seems to be the ONLY card you are playing. If you don't want to be seen as an apologist, then the normal approach would be to take the "Well, I can see both sides of the argument" track.

Except you didn't do that, you just keep throwing out the same tired shiat.
 
2014-07-09 04:38:42 PM  

ikanreed: Elliot8654: I would offer to change your mind, but 2 problems:
1) no matter what I say you won't believe me, even if I had other women I had slept with write in here how good I actually am.
2) if I tried to prove it, you don't want it. That would be this thing called rape, which is bad.

Look at that fragile little ego.


Thanks for proving point #1 so clearly.

I really hope someone you consent to having sex with isn't satisfied so they can tell others how you are a raging biatch failure.
 
2014-07-09 04:39:41 PM  

Khellendros: "Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it. Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".


If both parties are drunk, two rapes have been committed.
 
2014-07-09 04:40:06 PM  

Mikey1969: Look, if you are going to open with "But people have falsely accused others of rape", and then backed it up with another "See, this woman made a false accusation", then you are going to be seen as a rape apologist, especially since that seems to be the ONLY card you are playing. If you don't want to be seen as an apologist, then the normal approach would be to take the "Well, I can see both sides of the argument" track.

Except you didn't do that, you just keep throwing out the same tired shiat.


See, what he's pretending here is that because false accusations happen that's the same as being endemic.  The actual rate is insanely low and he offers no solutions because all he wants is to feel oppressed.

That's it.

He just wants to feel oppressed.

We know what the real world data says, but he'd rather portray himself as a victim, extrapolating on a few over-publicized events and insane hypotheticals that don't actually happen.
 
2014-07-09 04:40:43 PM  

worlddan: Raoul Eaton: worlddan: monoski: Really $150k a year salary is called profiteering???

Well, that was one way to out yourself as part of the 1%. Nice. job.


Well, no.  That's not an unusual salary for an experienced lawyer, and it's nowhere near being part of the 1%.

So you going to defend greed on the basis of being out of touch? Niiiiiice.


While 150k is a wonderful amount of money to be making every year; it is not much compared to the salaries most other "revolving door" individuals receive once they get out of public office.  It seems like an easy choice for HR to hire someone with inside experience in the sector for which they are hired.  The issue isn't how much they are paid, it is if they are helping the private companies get out of public accountability simply because they have inside knowledge.  On the other hand, someone with principle would be able to apply the law exactly and guide the companies to perform exactly to the intent of the law.
 
2014-07-09 04:40:59 PM  

ikanreed: poot_rootbeer: Oh Jesus this thread is full of MRAs.
/quit

You just made it proportionally fuller of them.  But have a nice day, you shouldn't suffer just because the rest of us struggle futilely to fix their broken ideological systems.


Is that what we're doing here on Fark?  And I figured this was a humorous, conversational venue with dangling squirrel balls nearby.
/I have no broken system to futilely fix.
 
2014-07-09 04:41:07 PM  

Mikey1969: Look, if you are going to open with "But people have falsely accused others of rape", and then backed it up with another "See, this woman made a false accusation", then you are going to be seen as a rape apologist, especially since that seems to be the ONLY card you are playing. If you don't want to be seen as an apologist, then the normal approach would be to take the "Well, I can see both sides of the argument" track.

Except you didn't do that, you just keep throwing out the same tired shiat.


As someone who has been falsely accused of rape and blackmailed over the situation in the past when he was 19, he's full of shiat. False rape accusations do occur - however, they are the rare exception rather than the rule of reporting. In addition, while it is a destructive way to try to ruin someone's life, it is  exceptionally rare, with  questionable reporting encompassing around 4.6 to 6% of all reported rapes, and false reporting definitively identified in <1% of rape reports.
 
2014-07-09 04:42:44 PM  

Elliot8654: I would offer to change your mind


You shouldn't be trying to change my mind. You should be trying to change your own douchiness toward women.

Get your priorities straight. Watch some Making Love videos.
 
2014-07-09 04:43:02 PM  

rkiller1: /I have no broken system to futilely fix.


This may be because you're an asshole.
 
2014-07-09 04:43:58 PM  
Doesn't approve of these shenanigans
sports.cbsimg.net
 
2014-07-09 04:44:08 PM  

This text is now purple: Khellendros: "Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it. Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

If both parties are drunk, two rapes have been committed.


depends on the state, in several states the responsibility is solely and always on the male even in cases of intoxication.
 
2014-07-09 04:44:21 PM  

Corvus: You don't just make it legal to rape women.


You can't make it legal to rape someone. If it's legal, it's not rape.
 
2014-07-09 04:44:37 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: More lies.


This from the guy who literally denies ALL OF HISTORY.

Why should anyone listen to anything you have to say?
 
2014-07-09 04:45:35 PM  

Elliot8654: Thanks for proving point #1 so clearly.

I really hope someone you consent to having sex with isn't satisfied so they can tell others how you are a raging biatch failure.


No see, what happened here that flagged the tiny MRA ego, was that you responded to the hypothetical "you"(you know the one that stands in for any person) as if it was about you, the specific.  And you got defensive about it.

It's not that we don't believe you.  It's just that the flaw you're exhibiting is deeply tied to the political beliefs you express, and manifests in the form and structure of how those ideas are frequently presented.


You can see this definition
overstatement of one's worth and capabilities to others, conceit, profligate dressing (intent on drawing attention), extreme need for competition, pride, over-sentimentality and affected exaltation,
As corresponding a lot with MRA behavior.

I don't actually there's much point to making this post, because if it's right, it'll be met with defensiveness, and it's not, while, it'd be insulting enough to justify real defensiveness.
 
2014-07-09 04:46:38 PM  

Inchoate: rkiller1: /I have no broken system to futilely fix.

This may be because you're an asshole.


img.fark.net
 
2014-07-09 04:46:49 PM  

This text is now purple: Khellendros: "Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it. Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

If both parties are drunk, two rapes have been committed.


Only rarely.  Unless she grabs him and forces him in, he's the one who took the action.  While I'm not going to claim this doesn't happen, I would assert it is the extreme minority of cases.
 
2014-07-09 04:46:58 PM  

hardinparamedic: In addition, while it is a destructive way to try to ruin someone's life, it is exceptionally rare, with questionable reporting encompassing around 4.6 to 6% of all reported rapes, and false reporting definitively identified in <1% of rape reports.


Are you defining false accusation as:

1. Didn't happen?
2. Knowingly didn't happen?
3. Provably didn't happen?
 
2014-07-09 04:47:20 PM  

Oh_Enough_Already: Guy gets drunk, sleeps with a girl he normally wouldn't, guy goes to AA, turns his life around.

Girl gets drunk, sleeps with a guy she normally wouldn't, guy goes to jail, girl goes back to the bar.

     -Rape, 2014 edition.


"Lol, rape victims never avoid situations similar to when they were raped bringing up intense and unpleasant memories, amiright?"

(too much to ask) Don't be a moron.
 
2014-07-09 04:48:14 PM  

worlddan: Crewmannumber6: I just skimmed the article, but I didn't see anything associated with Byzantium. Was Subby trying to say Draconian?

What does Harry Potter have to do with rape?


Hermione should be along shortly to explain
 
2014-07-09 04:48:22 PM  

Khellendros: This text is now purple: Khellendros: "Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it. Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

If both parties are drunk, two rapes have been committed.

Only rarely.  Unless she grabs him and forces him in, he's the one who took the action.  While I'm not going to claim this doesn't happen, I would assert it is the extreme minority of cases.


Perhaps you missed the part where the male was unable to legally consent. Which makes sex with such a male rape.
 
2014-07-09 04:48:28 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: I would offer to change your mind

You shouldn't be trying to change my mind. You should be trying to change your own douchiness toward women.

Get your priorities straight. Watch some Making Love videos.


No thanks, because my worth as a person is tied to way more than my ability to sexually please someone.

Oh, and as for my "douchiness", is that why I am cooking steak, pasta, and vegetables for my fiancee? Because I'm a douchenozzle who doesn't respect her?

No. I just expect the same of men and women. Be smart. Take responsibility for your actions. Don't expect others to coddle you and say "please sign here and blow in this breathalhzer to indicate you are capable and consenting to this activity".

How about instead of making me "fix my douche attitude" you encourage women as well as men to be responsible for themselves.
 
2014-07-09 04:49:07 PM  

rkiller1: Inchoate: rkiller1: /I have no broken system to futilely fix.

This may be because you're an asshole.

[img.fark.net image 428x278]


sick burn bro
 
2014-07-09 04:49:33 PM  

This text is now purple: 1. Didn't happen?
2. Knowingly didn't happen?
3. Provably didn't happen?


Let's be clear
#3 is the <1% category.

#1+#2+#3+those where there's reason to be suspect at all is 4-6%

Which is in keeping with general false crime reports.
 
2014-07-09 04:51:23 PM  

Ant: Define rape


A plant whose seeds can be used to produce Canola oil.
 
2014-07-09 04:51:38 PM  

Mikey1969: then you are going to be seen as a rape apologist,


No, YOU are going to see me as a rape apologist because actually considering what I have to say will make you feel distressed because considering uh, someone else's opinion might make you rethink your own. You can't have that -right?

Ishkur: This from the guy who literally denies ALL OF HISTORY.


No, I deny your weird version of it in a thread about how people create their own reality to replace, uh, THE reality.

Here's a quote:

Ishkur: You pointing out exceptions doesn't discredit the fact that for the past 10,000 years women have been severely controlled, owned, marginalized, neglected and discredited by men.


You have problems determining the difference between fact and your own opinion.
 
2014-07-09 04:51:41 PM  

This text is now purple: Khellendros: This text is now purple: Khellendros: "Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it. Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

If both parties are drunk, two rapes have been committed.

Only rarely.  Unless she grabs him and forces him in, he's the one who took the action.  While I'm not going to claim this doesn't happen, I would assert it is the extreme minority of cases.

Perhaps you missed the part where the male was unable to legally consent. Which makes sex with such a male rape.


I didn't miss it at all - you said "if both parties are drunk". If both parties are drunk, rape is committed by the one that took action to initiate sex.  In nearly all cases, that is the male.  It's exceptionally difficult for it to be the woman (though it is possible, and likely does occur from time to time).
 
2014-07-09 04:55:37 PM  

Inchoate: rkiller1: Inchoate: rkiller1: /I have no broken system to futilely fix.

This may be because you're an asshole.

[img.fark.net image 428x278]

sick burn bro


Quoting this just so it will show up for him.
 
2014-07-09 04:55:50 PM  

Khellendros: It's exceptionally difficult for it to be the woman (though it is possible, and likely does occur from time to time).


If the guy's drunk, whiskey-dick usually inhibits penetrative rape, but there are definitely cases of women taking advantage of drunk dudes. Not common, but happens.
 
2014-07-09 04:57:19 PM  

Inchoate: Khellendros: It's exceptionally difficult for it to be the woman (though it is possible, and likely does occur from time to time).

If the guy's drunk, whiskey-dick usually inhibits penetrative rape, but there are definitely cases of women taking advantage of drunk dudes. Not common, but happens.


Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.
 
2014-07-09 05:00:28 PM  

Elliot8654: Oh, and as for my "douchiness", is that why I am cooking steak, pasta, and vegetables for my fiancee?


Was she homeschooled?

Elliot8654: How about instead of making me "fix my douche attitude" you encourage women as well as men to be responsible for themselves.


I did. In my very Boobies. You notice that no woman objected to my advice but the MRAs jumped all over it? That's telling. It means it's not just about women, it's a bigger complex of resisting anything might be tell them how to behave or live, which is probably why MRAs are almost always Libertarians/Objectivists.

For that is truly the heart of the whole MRA ethos: The strident individualist desire to not be controlled by ANY authority, period. They have a fierce resistance toward any group that tries to tell them how to live, how to behave, how to act, how to treat others or even how to function in society. So it all comes from the same core principle: They hate government because it legislates society, they hate religion because it enforces morality, and they also hate minority groups (or any group that's not them: white privileged males) for forcing them to obey some arcane set of social behaviors that they did not sign up for. This is where MRA comes in, which is just a political rally removed from nationalism and a burning cross removed from racism. They don't like other people telling them how they should treat others, especially religions, minorities and women. And most of them hate altruism.

There are various flavors of staunch right-wing individualism, from the mild social libertarians to the ultra-schizophrenic Sovereign Citizens (a group that denies the existence of any social institutions entirely) but most of them fall within the hard Libertarian/Objectivist camp - mostly college-aged males who just read Ayn Rand and realized that society has no right to tell them they aren't allowed to be self-righteous assholes (without consequence, of course). They also tend to be Ron Paul followers.

I would even go so far as to say that many of them are social autistics or at the very least have Aspergers. They don't function well in groups and they don't see the point or purpose in socializing, and this deficiency is what compels them to put up a fierce front when encountered, because when you have an ego as big as they do, it's hard to back down from anything. So you get the Hegelian backlash to feminism in the MRA. They don't like being forced. If you push them, they'll push back no matter what you are: A social, political, religious or racial group.
 
2014-07-09 05:01:25 PM  
I think we need to gender split universities. In one you put all the males and females, in the other you put all the people who are offended to be asked which they are.

Once all those tumblrites are skimmed off, people can get back to being educated without fear of being accused of shiat by  nutbars.
 
2014-07-09 05:04:41 PM  
Opal, opal.

Constantinople.
 
2014-07-09 05:06:57 PM  

Ishkur: I did. In my very Boobies. You notice that no woman objected to my advice but the MRAs jumped all over it? That's telling. It means it's not just about women, it's a bigger complex of resisting anything might be tell them how to behave or live, which is probably why MRAs are almost always Libertarians/Objectivists.


1) You don't have boobies, they're called moobies on a guy.
2) There are very few women on Fark and guys outnumber women like 10 to 1. (Seriously go to Digichick to talk to women)lol
3) That's called a Strawman argument and not a very good one. Gender issues are not  exclusive to any one political group.
 
2014-07-09 05:07:13 PM  

zzrhardy: I think we need to gender split universities. In one you put all the males and females, in the other you put all the people who are offended to be asked which they are.

Once all those tumblrites are skimmed off, people can get back to being educated without fear of being accused of shiat by  nutbars.


You know that the people who want to be asked are those "tumblrites" by-and-large, right?
 
2014-07-09 05:08:20 PM  

Ishkur: JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after.

And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.



So, don't make any demands or unreasonable expectations, but do all this things we demand, you selfish douchebag?

Thanks, but I'd rather stick to the fleshlight than deal with this level of hypocrisy and double-speech.
 
2014-07-09 05:09:24 PM  

Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.


I'm sorry, we were talking about rape.  You know, sex with at least one non-consenting party?  Not this bullshiat you're peddling.  Other than the drug use example, the rest is piles of false equivalency.
 
2014-07-09 05:12:17 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: No, I deny your weird version of it


What weird version of it? Open a farking textbook. Check the rulers of every apex culture, empire and civilization that ever existed -- they're all men. Ancient Rome had ZERO women Senators, ZERO women Consuls, ZERO women Emperors, and women never held any rank in the army.

The Bible is even worse: Women aren't allowed to speak in church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35), women aren't allowed to have they heads uncovered (1 Corinthians 11:5-6), women are not permitted to teach or have any position of authority (1 Timothy 2:11-12), wives must be submissive to their husbands and woman must submit to man (Colossians 3:18, Ephesians 5:22-24, 1 Peter 3:1, 1 Corinthians 11:7), woman must worship man as the man worships Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3). And yet you insist that men didn't have much power throughout history? Why is this shiat there if that's true? How do you justify your conceit? Where's the balance of power if women don't figured in any prominent roles?

Provide evidence.

Because People in power are Stupid: Here's a quote:

Ishkur: You pointing out exceptions doesn't discredit the fact that for the past 10,000 years women have been severely controlled, owned, marginalized, neglected and discredited by men.

You have problems determining the difference between fact and your own opinion.


Yes, I said that. Do you dispute it? How?

And of course you said: MEN TAKE ALL THE RISKS.

No they don't. Go to Vegas, women gamble just as much as men.

What's really going on is men are more competitive and men are more aggressive. They will fight each other over power (and even over women ie: their property). That doesn't necessarily mean they take more risks nor are they better in leadership roles, nor does it mean women must be relegated to second-class citizens.
 
2014-07-09 05:12:52 PM  

Libelec: I'd rather stick to the fleshlight


TMI
 
2014-07-09 05:13:03 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Oh, and as for my "douchiness", is that why I am cooking steak, pasta, and vegetables for my fiancee?

Was she homeschooled?

Elliot8654: How about instead of making me "fix my douche attitude" you encourage women as well as men to be responsible for themselves.

I did. In my very Boobies. You notice that no woman objected to my advice but the MRAs jumped all over it? That's telling. It means it's not just about women, it's a bigger complex of resisting anything might be tell them how to behave or live, which is probably why MRAs are almost always Libertarians/Objectivists.

For that is truly the heart of the whole MRA ethos: The strident individualist desire to not be controlled by ANY authority, period. They have a fierce resistance toward any group that tries to tell them how to live, how to behave, how to act, how to treat others or even how to function in society. So it all comes from the same core principle: They hate government because it legislates society, they hate religion because it enforces morality, and they also hate minority groups (or any group that's not them: white privileged males) for forcing them to obey some arcane set of social behaviors that they did not sign up for. This is where MRA comes in, which is just a political rally removed from nationalism and a burning cross removed from racism. They don't like other people telling them how they should treat others, especially religions, minorities and women. And most of them hate altruism.

There are various flavors of staunch right-wing individualism, from the mild social libertarians to the ultra-schizophrenic Sovereign Citizens (a group that denies the existence of any social institutions entirely) but most of them fall within the hard Libertarian/Objectivist camp - mostly college-aged males who just read Ayn Rand and realized that society has no right to tell them they aren't allowed to be self-righteous assholes (without consequence, of course). They also tend to be Ron Paul fol ...



1) No, she went to public high school and has a masters degree.
2) Congrats, you summed up just about none of me. Socially very liberal, fiscally  moderate, primarily egalitarian and in favor of equality.

If you want to know what I am against, please see the following:
https://www.facebook.com/INeedRadicalFeminismBecause
https://www.facebook.com/mens.rights.56?fref=ts

It's not about one group being better, or worse, or mistreating.
It's about everyone having equal treatment.
Drinking doesn't excuse you from your responsibility.
But someone else being drunk doesn't mean you can just sleep with them if you want.

Don't put the pressure on only one gender to be responsible for consent, male or female.
 
2014-07-09 05:15:00 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: There are very few women on Fark and guys outnumber women like 10 to 1.


What's the ratio to MRA douches to guys? I bet there's more females here than MRA douches. Or, there were before you posted your drivel, scaring them away with your douchiness.

Because People in power are Stupid: 3) That's called a Strawman argument and not a very good one. Gender issues are not exclusive to any one political group.


I'm not talking about gender issues, I'm talking about MRAs, a group that knows very little about gender issues.
 
2014-07-09 05:15:08 PM  
God farking dammit when will the current fashion for 'rape is stuff women make up and a liberal industry derp derp' end? It makes news too depressing to even read sometimes.
 
2014-07-09 05:15:56 PM  

Khellendros: Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.

I'm sorry, we were talking about rape.  You know, sex with at least one non-consenting party?  Not this bullshiat you're peddling.  Other than the drug use example, the rest is piles of false equivalency.


http://www.brissc.org.au/resources/for/for_1.html

Some examples of rape include:
An adult relative uses trickery and bribes to make a child participate in a sexual activity.
A husband/partner manipulates his wife into having sex in order to 'keep the peace' or to 'show that she loves him' or that it is 'her duty' or 'his entitlement'.
A boy/man pressures a girl/woman into having sex when she is not ready.
A man expects a woman to have sex after buying her a drink or dinner.
A man has sex with a woman when she is too drunk or drugged to give or refuse consent.
A general practitioner convinces a woman to undertake an intimate examination when it is unnecessary or inappropriate.


I'm sorry, you were saying?
 
2014-07-09 05:16:05 PM  

Libelec: Ishkur: JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after.

And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.


So, don't make any demands or unreasonable expectations, but do all this things we demand, you selfish douchebag?

Thanks, but I'd rather stick to the fleshlight than deal with this level of hypocrisy and double-speech.


I think the line "It's not about you" is even more damning than what you highlighted. I'm a human being too, why am I relegated to being servile to her sexual desires while not even considering my own? Why should it be exclusively about her?
 
2014-07-09 05:17:25 PM  

Elliot8654: If you want to know what I am against


I don't care. We've already concluded that part several posts ago.
 
2014-07-09 05:19:43 PM  

SeriousGeorge: I think the line "It's not about you" is even more damning than what you highlighted. I'm a human being too, why am I relegated to being servile to her sexual desires while not even considering my own? Why should it be exclusively about her?


And I'm sure the peacock thinks "Why the fark do I need this big ass tail? Why the fark should I have to do anything for her? She should just come to me for me, is that not enough?"
 
2014-07-09 05:20:24 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: If you want to know what I am against

I don't care. We've already concluded that part several posts ago.



Then you are no better than the MRA's. 
You want them to learn about you point of view and listen to you, and do what you say.
But you refuse to learn about others, and their points of view.

You are either a well crafted troll, or just a mediocre person.
Have fun being one of those, because people won't respect either.
 
2014-07-09 05:20:55 PM  

ikanreed: Mikey1969: Look, if you are going to open with "But people have falsely accused others of rape", and then backed it up with another "See, this woman made a false accusation", then you are going to be seen as a rape apologist, especially since that seems to be the ONLY card you are playing. If you don't want to be seen as an apologist, then the normal approach would be to take the "Well, I can see both sides of the argument" track.

Except you didn't do that, you just keep throwing out the same tired shiat.

See, what he's pretending here is that because false accusations happen that's the same as being endemic.  The actual rate is insanely low and he offers no solutions because all he wants is to feel oppressed.

That's it.

He just wants to feel oppressed.

We know what the real world data says, but he'd rather portray himself as a victim, extrapolating on a few over-publicized events and insane hypotheticals that don't actually happen.


Yeah, dropping that "rape carnival" line didn't help him start the thread off on a good tone, that's for sure.

hardinparamedic: As someone who has been falsely accused of rape and blackmailed over the situation in the past when he was 19, he's full of shiat. False rape accusations do occur - however, they are the rare exception rather than the rule of reporting. In addition, while it is a destructive way to try to ruin someone's life, it is  exceptionally rare, with  questionable reporting encompassing around 4.6 to 6% of all reported rapes, and false reporting definitively identified in <1% of rape reports.


God, that would totally suck. The blackmailing thing would be the real pisser, though...
 
2014-07-09 05:21:40 PM  

Ishkur: SeriousGeorge: I think the line "It's not about you" is even more damning than what you highlighted. I'm a human being too, why am I relegated to being servile to her sexual desires while not even considering my own? Why should it be exclusively about her?

And I'm sure the peacock thinks "Why the fark do I need this big ass tail? Why the fark should I have to do anything for her? She should just come to me for me, is that not enough?"


Yeah! It's the guy's job to look good and be kind and caring for the girl!
So you aren't even a feminist, you just care about women getting what they want.
Men are second class to that.
So proud of you.
 
2014-07-09 05:23:21 PM  

KawaiiNot: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

Seriously, I wonder this too. Are more parents failing at raising their boys to be real men these days? It was not an epidemic back when I went to college and was in the military. It happened but it was much more rare. was reported much less often.


FTFY
 
2014-07-09 05:23:41 PM  

Elliot8654: Khellendros: Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.

I'm sorry, we were talking about rape.  You know, sex with at least one non-consenting party?  Not this bullshiat you're peddling.  Other than the drug use example, the rest is piles of false equivalency.

http://www.brissc.org.au/resources/for/for_1.html

Some examples of rape include:
An adult relative uses trickery and bribes to make a child participate in a sexual activity.
A husband/partner manipulates his wife into having sex in order to 'keep the peace' or to 'show that she loves him' or that it is 'her duty' or 'his entitlement'.
A boy/man pressures a girl/woman into having sex when she is not ready.
A man expects a woman to have sex after buying her a drink or dinner.
A man has sex with a woman when she is too drunk or drugged to give or refuse consent.
A general practitioner convinces a woman to undertake an intimate examination when it is unnecessary or inappropriate.


I'm sorry, you were saying?


From the very first line on that page: "Our definition of rape is broader than most conventional or legal definitions."

I'm sorry, you were saying?
 
2014-07-09 05:23:59 PM  

Libelec: So, don't make any demands or unreasonable expectations, but do all this things we demand, you selfish douchebag?


Yes, it's called courtship, dumbass. You don't have to do all those things if you don't want to, but the upside of not being a total douchebag who's awful at sex is that she doesn't consider you a total douchebag who's awful at sex and possibly a rapist if she's sufficiently motivated to publicly shame your awful-sex doucheness.
 
2014-07-09 05:24:51 PM  

Mikey1969: God, that would totally suck. The blackmailing thing would be the real pisser, though...


The blackmail thing was the only godsend in the whole event. We were able to record he telling my mom that if our family paid them a couple grand, this would all go away. The DA dropped proceedings at that point when we gave him the evidence.

During the case's progression to that point, we found out she had done this to several people in the past in Michigan - which was why her family kicked her to Tennessee in the first place.
 
2014-07-09 05:24:52 PM  

Elliot8654: But you refuse to learn about others, and their points of view.


I already know your point of view. We're done here.
 
2014-07-09 05:25:11 PM  

Ishkur: What weird version of it? Open a farking textbook. Check the rulers of every apex culture, empire and civilization that ever existed -- they're all men. Ancient Rome had ZERO women Senators, ZERO women Consuls, ZERO women Emperors, and women never held any rank in the army.


#1 Don't ever cite the bible as fact to people you are trying to convince of something.
#2 You don't speak for all women for the past 10,000 years -you don't know all of their stories but your brief single sentence that sums up ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY doesn't do them justice. Again, you don't speak for them.

2a) If you want to understand why you are wrong about human culture. Try to convince a woman in Africa not to mutilate her daughters genitals. Try to make your statement about men being in control or something and they will refute you. There is something that you don't really understand and it is called "culture". I can not neatly summarize culture in a pithy little sentence but it involves participation and identity. People throughout history don't necessarily feel oppressed by their own culture because you have some "enlightened" view of their lives that they couldn't have.

#3) The zero women in blah blah, doesn't matter (even if it's wrong). Human beings are animals, mammals more specifically. There are ZERO female gorillas in charge of their troop and a large silverback is almost always preferred. Does this mean that the gorillas are male dominated? (hint: yes) But it doesn't make them wrong. They are just gorillas.

Can we please bring this back to topic rather than going off on a something that I said in some other thread?
 
2014-07-09 05:26:23 PM  

Theaetetus: Elliot8654: Khellendros: Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.

I'm sorry, we were talking about rape.  You know, sex with at least one non-consenting party?  Not this bullshiat you're peddling.  Other than the drug use example, the rest is piles of false equivalency.

http://www.brissc.org.au/resources/for/for_1.html

Some examples of rape include:
An adult relative uses trickery and bribes to make a child participate in a sexual activity.
A husband/partner manipulates his wife into having sex in order to 'keep the peace' or to 'show that she loves him' or that it is 'her duty' or 'his entitlement'.
A boy/man pressures a girl/woman into having sex when she is not ready.
A man expects a woman to have sex after buying her a drink or dinner.
A man has sex with a woman when she is too drunk or drugged to give or refuse consent.
A general practitioner convinces a woman to undertake an intimate examination when it is unnecessary or inappropriate.


I'm sorry, you were saying?

From the very first line on that page: "Our definition of rape is broader than most conventional or legal definitions."

I'm sorry, you were saying?


Yeah, those are only the definitions on which a rape accusation can be made.
Or i'm sorry, is this only about finding someone guilty of rape?
Cuz last I checked, college rape accusations and rules are rather different from criminal prosecutions.
And this article was about college proceedings, not federal law.
 
2014-07-09 05:27:17 PM  

ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.


If drunk sex is rape, I am an unrepentant serial rapist.
 
2014-07-09 05:27:41 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: But you refuse to learn about others, and their points of view.

I already know your point of view. We're done here.


Yeah, my awful, evil point of view about personal responsibility, accountability for one's own actions (Men and women).
I'm such a monster.

Remind me again, which of us told the other gender how we are supposed to behave in bed, and how we will be berated if we don't perform to your standards?
 
2014-07-09 05:27:50 PM  
Elliot8654:

Why is it everyone is always totally one sided?
If a woman wants equality, fine. We are all equally responsible for our actions.


1) People are one-sided for a few reasons.  One - They are trolling.  Two - They are sincerely holding an untenable and inflexible point of view because somehow facts may threaten the bubbled of cognitive dissonance that they live in like a big snuggle baby blanket.  Three - They are lawyers at heart and are simply taking an opposite point of view to exercise mentally (frustrating for people who can't tell...resembles trolling).

2) Women despite protestations to the contrary do not want equality.  Equality would mean equal responsibilities socially as well as equality in rights.  equality for women would upset the apple cart big time in many ways legally.  From divorce court to criminal court...from selective service (in the USA) to voluntary military service things would change.

Right now if you are a women in the USA you are exempt from the selective service (compulsory military service if Congress ever reactivates the draft).  In the military we have reduced physical requirements in many areas to allow women to compete with men.  Men if women are not aware are even at the same weight and height usually considerably stronger with all else being equal.  Men just have more muscle mass oh and that testosterone thing.

That isn't to say there aren't roles for each to play...there are.  And there is room for some *some* crossover.  But largely women desire all the rights with either reduced or modified responsibility.  And men?  Well we're big evil stupid rape machines so we owe them for centuries of oppression.

But I have yet to speak with a woman that truly wants equality.
 
2014-07-09 05:29:37 PM  

Elliot8654: Some examples of rape include:
An adult relative uses trickery and bribes to make a child participate in a sexual activity.
A husband/partner manipulates his wife into having sex in order to 'keep the peace' or to 'show that she loves him' or that it is 'her duty' or 'his entitlement'.
A boy/man pressures a girl/woman into having sex when she is not ready.
A man expects a woman to have sex after buying her a drink or dinner.
A man has sex with a woman when she is too drunk or drugged to give or refuse consent.
A general practitioner convinces a woman to undertake an intimate examination when it is unnecessary or inappropriate.


I'm sorry, you were saying?


Most of those are obvious cases, and the post does nothing to back up your implied claim.  Rape, in most cases, is easily defined and easy to interpret, and in nearly all cases in perpetrated by males.  Hard to prove, obviously, making it very hard for women to get justice.

Using your above list:

1)  Children can't be consenting parties.  Duh.  Nearly 100% of cases are males as the perpetrator.
2)  Was there a threat involved?  If so, one party wasn't freely consenting. Typically male pepetrator, but some females as well.
3)  Define "pressure".  Too vague to evaluate.
4)  "Expectations" are not rape.  Sex with a non-consenting person is rape.  The example cites males as the perpetrator.
5)  Non consenting party, again.  Duh.  The example itself cites males as the perpetrator.
6)  Not medically necessary?  Duh again.

So what was your point by attempting to argue that both sexes have some sort of equal share in this?  Most of the examples you used are clear examples of what I states - sex with a non-consenting party - and are often defined as a male problem, or statistically are entirely perpetrated by males.  Exactly as I stated.
 
2014-07-09 05:30:05 PM  

JesusJuice: ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.

If drunk sex is rape, I am an unrepentant serial rapist.



Yeah, I got drunk and masturbated once. I mean, i said no to myself, but i was hard, so i must have really wanted it.
Did I rape myself?
 
2014-07-09 05:32:13 PM  

Elliot8654: Yeah, those are only the definitions on which a rape accusation can be made.


Uh, no, they aren't. As it says in your link: "Our definition takes into account that a person may feel as if they have been raped in circumstances that are not legally defined as constituting rape. "

Look, I get it - you did a quick Google search, found something that kinda fits what you were saying, and quoted and linked to it without bothering to actually read the page. Now that you've been called on it, you're trying to double down, rather than doing the adult thing and admitting that it wasn't the best cite.
 
2014-07-09 05:32:34 PM  

Khellendros: Elliot8654: Some examples of rape include:
An adult relative uses trickery and bribes to make a child participate in a sexual activity.
A husband/partner manipulates his wife into having sex in order to 'keep the peace' or to 'show that she loves him' or that it is 'her duty' or 'his entitlement'.
A boy/man pressures a girl/woman into having sex when she is not ready.
A man expects a woman to have sex after buying her a drink or dinner.
A man has sex with a woman when she is too drunk or drugged to give or refuse consent.
A general practitioner convinces a woman to undertake an intimate examination when it is unnecessary or inappropriate.


I'm sorry, you were saying?

Most of those are obvious cases, and the post does nothing to back up your implied claim.  Rape, in most cases, is easily defined and easy to interpret, and in nearly all cases in perpetrated by males.  Hard to prove, obviously, making it very hard for women to get justice.

Using your above list:

1)  Children can't be consenting parties.  Duh.  Nearly 100% of cases are males as the perpetrator.
2)  Was there a threat involved?  If so, one party wasn't freely consenting. Typically male pepetrator, but some females as well.
3)  Define "pressure".  Too vague to evaluate.
4)  "Expectations" are not rape.  Sex with a non-consenting person is rape.  The example cites males as the perpetrator.
5)  Non consenting party, again.  Duh.  The example itself cites males as the perpetrator.
6)  Not medically necessary?  Duh again.

So what was your point by attempting to argue that both sexes have some sort of equal share in this?  Most of the examples you used are clear examples of what I states - sex with a non-consenting party - and are often defined as a male problem, or statistically are entirely perpetrated by males.  Exactly as I stated.


If 90% of the time it's men perpetrating a crime, then 90% of the people arrested and imprisoned should be men. I fully agree.
But to claim that it can't happen because if guys get drunk they cant get hard, so they can't rape is asinine.
Which was the implied claim of a previous post by someone else.
 
2014-07-09 05:32:57 PM  

Elliot8654: Yeah, I got drunk and masturbated once. I mean, i said no to myself, but i was hard, so i must have really wanted it.
Did I rape myself?


Is being that stupid something you were born with, or did you have to repeatedly strike yourself in the head and practice to get that way?
 
2014-07-09 05:33:49 PM  

Theaetetus: Elliot8654: Yeah, those are only the definitions on which a rape accusation can be made.

Uh, no, they aren't. As it says in your link: "Our definition takes into account that a person may feel as if they have been raped in circumstances that are not legally defined as constituting rape. "

Look, I get it - you did a quick Google search, found something that kinda fits what you were saying, and quoted and linked to it without bothering to actually read the page. Now that you've been called on it, you're trying to double down, rather than doing the adult thing and admitting that it wasn't the best cite.


It doesn't matter what I cite, nothing is a "good site".
Yeah, it's mediocre, i admit.
But the point stands. Coercion and intimidation to get sex counts as rape.
That was the whole point.
Sorry if my attempt to find some website to back up what should be basic common sense while I am in a big hurry wasn't the best.
 
2014-07-09 05:34:32 PM  

Elliot8654: JesusJuice: ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.

If drunk sex is rape, I am an unrepentant serial rapist.

Yeah, I got drunk and masturbated once. I mean, i said no to myself, but i was hard, so i must have really wanted it.
Did I rape myself?


Were you incapacitated? Y'know, like the statutes require, rather than merely "buzzed", as you and the other rape apologists like to pretend?
 
2014-07-09 05:35:18 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Don't ever cite the bible as fact


You don't think those things were written in the Bible? And that people didn't follow them and apply them in their daily lives, and some religious sects still do today? You don't think that happens? .....how deliberately obtuse are you?

Because People in power are Stupid: You don't speak for all women for the past 10,000 years -you don't know all of their stories but your brief single sentence that sums up ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY doesn't do them justice. Again, you don't speak for them.


Of course not -- no one can speak for women because their stories were not written. Because they were kept illiterate, ignorant, and homebound by men. And we know this because this is what men told us they did with women, all throughout history, in their documents.

Because People in power are Stupid: If you want to understand why you are wrong about human culture.


I take it you are neither an anthropologist, economist, sociologist or demographer, and you quite simply do not have the knowledge or the education to even attempt to assert that you know what you are talking about.

Because People in power are Stupid: There are ZERO female gorillas


We're not gorillas.

And the fact that human cultures were at one time egalitarian (before the Age of Agriculture) suggests that our gender roles are fairly more nuanced and complicated than other sapien species, and that patriarchy is a function of social organization and not an endemic evolutionary trait of the species.
 
2014-07-09 05:36:08 PM  

hardinparamedic: Elliot8654: Yeah, I got drunk and masturbated once. I mean, i said no to myself, but i was hard, so i must have really wanted it.
Did I rape myself?

Is being that stupid something you were born with, or did you have to repeatedly strike yourself in the head and practice to get that way?


No, i'm just getting sick of trying to explain to one person that responsibility for your own actions is a good thing, and that men don't have to cowtow to women for sex.
And I'm just frustrated that people think "drank too much or held down and forced" is the only case where unwanted sex can occur.
 
2014-07-09 05:36:29 PM  

fireclown: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

It's still a serious, although separate problem.  The entire subject is serious, and has consequences.  False accusations should be dealt with harshly.

On to the main point:  Ladies: do not go to a college administrator if you are raped.  Go to the police.


As a former college administrator: THIS.

And if the local town cops try to point you back towards campus, go elsewhere. State police, DA, hire an attorney. But most police are getting better about handling this properly.

It's not like I was ever instructed to cover anything up, btw. But the response is too incoherent and unpredictable at the level of any individual school for me to give any other advice. What amounts to cover-ups is still a huge problem.

Kudos to the Obama administration for grappling with the issue. It needs federal leadership. Few schools are willing to implement proper and public reporting unless every other school does it too, because most parents are stupid enough to think that the school not reporting it must not have a problem with it. So they need someone to force them to all do it together.
 
2014-07-09 05:37:13 PM  

Theaetetus: Elliot8654: JesusJuice: ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.

If drunk sex is rape, I am an unrepentant serial rapist.

Yeah, I got drunk and masturbated once. I mean, i said no to myself, but i was hard, so i must have really wanted it.
Did I rape myself?

Were you incapacitated? Y'know, like the statutes require, rather than merely "buzzed", as you and the other rape apologists like to pretend?


Since when was i a "rape apologist"?
Did i miss something where I ever said "yeah, she was asking for it"? or "she deserved it"?
I seem to recall my entire point since moment one being "people, be responsible for your actions.
 
2014-07-09 05:37:29 PM  

hardinparamedic: Mikey1969: God, that would totally suck. The blackmailing thing would be the real pisser, though...

The blackmail thing was the only godsend in the whole event. We were able to record he telling my mom that if our family paid them a couple grand, this would all go away. The DA dropped proceedings at that point when we gave him the evidence.

During the case's progression to that point, we found out she had done this to several people in the past in Michigan - which was why her family kicked her to Tennessee in the first place.


That's very good to hear, because otherwise, it would be the salt in the wound and the twist of the knife, not only false accusations, but having to pay the person who's lying(Not that blackmail is ever good, but it's exponentially worse when the shiat you're paying for never happened) is horrible.
 
2014-07-09 05:37:38 PM  

Elliot8654: Remind me again, which of us told the other gender how we are supposed to behave in bed, and how we will be berated if we don't perform to your standards?


It's not how you're supposed to behave, but if you want to avoid being a douchebag who's awful at sex, and possibly a rapist, it's recommended.

Fair tradeoff if you ask me.
 
2014-07-09 05:38:40 PM  

MBooda: "evade", Subby?

Judging from the article, more like "comply with".


Yup. Subby is both an idiot and an ass. Quite the talent.
 
2014-07-09 05:40:02 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Remind me again, which of us told the other gender how we are supposed to behave in bed, and how we will be berated if we don't perform to your standards?

It's not how you're supposed to behave, but if you want to avoid being a douchebag who's awful at sex, and possibly a rapist, it's recommended.

Fair tradeoff if you ask me.


The end of that sentence sums up why i don't take you seriously " if you want to avoid being a douchebag who's awful at sex, and possibly a rapist, it's recommended. "

So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.
And you wonder why MRA groups bring up false rape claims so much.
Because you imply by this sentence that being bad at sex may get us accused of rape.
Thank you so much.
 
2014-07-09 05:40:22 PM  

Elliot8654: Theaetetus: Elliot8654: JesusJuice: ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.

If drunk sex is rape, I am an unrepentant serial rapist.

Yeah, I got drunk and masturbated once. I mean, i said no to myself, but i was hard, so i must have really wanted it.
Did I rape myself?

Were you incapacitated? Y'know, like the statutes require, rather than merely "buzzed", as you and the other rape apologists like to pretend?

Since when was i a "rape apologist"?


The part where you equated "getting drunk" and "saying no to yourself" to rape. It's quoted in this post, if you can't remember that far.

Did i miss something where I ever said "yeah, she was asking for it"? or "she deserved it"?
I seem to recall my entire point since moment one being "people, be responsible for your actions.


If someone is incapacitated, then by definition, they cannot "be responsible for their actions." Your "entire point" is either the most ignorant piece of drivel I've seen in a while, or it's a rape apology.
 
2014-07-09 05:42:28 PM  

Ishkur: Because People in power are Stupid: There are very few women on Fark and guys outnumber women like 10 to 1.

What's the ratio to MRA douches to guys? I bet there's more females here than MRA douches. Or, there were before you posted your drivel, scaring them away with your douchiness.


Do you really want to trade insults with me? I can tell you right now from your general demeanor that I can use 'hurtful words' much more effectively than you can. But if you keep using the invective voice, I guarantee that your posts are going to start getting deleted.

Going back to something you said earlier:

Ishkur: Yes, I said that. Do you dispute it? How?

And of course you said: MEN TAKE ALL THE RISKS.

No they don't. Go to Vegas, women gamble just as much as men.

What's really going on is men are more competitive and men are more aggressive. They will fight each other over power (and even over women ie: their property). That doesn't necessarily mean they take more risks nor are they better in leadership roles, nor does it mean women must be relegated to second-class citizens.


That men take more risks is a well established FACT.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/evolution/9005552/Men-twice-as-li ke ly-to-take-risks.html
That's a source.

Do you have a source for "no, they don't"?

I didn't think so.
 
2014-07-09 05:43:04 PM  

Theaetetus: Elliot8654: Theaetetus: Elliot8654: JesusJuice: ikanreed: JesusJuice: Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Except, of course, to contracts, financial deals, weddings, and basically every other class of thing consent if legally required for.  Then suddenly it's too big a deal to just let slide.

If drunk sex is rape, I am an unrepentant serial rapist.

Yeah, I got drunk and masturbated once. I mean, i said no to myself, but i was hard, so i must have really wanted it.
Did I rape myself?

Were you incapacitated? Y'know, like the statutes require, rather than merely "buzzed", as you and the other rape apologists like to pretend?

Since when was i a "rape apologist"?

The part where you equated "getting drunk" and "saying no to yourself" to rape. It's quoted in this post, if you can't remember that far.

Did i miss something where I ever said "yeah, she was asking for it"? or "she deserved it"?
I seem to recall my entire point since moment one being "people, be responsible for your actions.

If someone is incapacitated, then by definition, they cannot "be responsible for their actions." Your "entire point" is either the most ignorant piece of drivel I've seen in a while, or it's a rape apology.



So.......you apparently don't get humor, or rhetoric, or a dumb joke, or any of these concepts, eh?
 
2014-07-09 05:43:15 PM  

Elliot8654: The end of that sentence sums up why i don't take you seriously " if you want to avoid being a douchebag who's awful at sex, and possibly a rapist, it's recommended. "

So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.


If your victim is incapacitated, then it goes a bit farther than you sucking at sex.
 
2014-07-09 05:43:57 PM  
Wow. Reading these comments make me incredibly angry. Most of them are about false accusations and women controlling themselves and a few people who actually understand the problem (a few). Rape is not about sex. It is about domination, control, and violence. The fact that so few people on here understand what rape is justifies how much we need to fix this issue. I went through it in college. It was awful and I ended up dropping out. The police and campus nurse were exacerbated because they said there was nothing I could do and basically treated me like I was making it up (because I was too afraid and embarrassed to get prompt medical attention and only went when I wasn't healing). My friends who found out didn't believe me and still stayed friends with my rapist, taking "his side." And trust me, this was not something I wanted people to find out because of the slut shaming that happens. It was humiliating and awful. It was painful and embarrassing. It was a social nightmare and felt like I was in a twilight zone. Worst of all is my loss of confidence and control over how I though and who I was as a person. If that hadn't happened, who knows, maybe I would have finished my goal of becoming an aeronautical engineer (a career in which women are poorly represented).
 
2014-07-09 05:45:09 PM  

Theaetetus: Elliot8654: The end of that sentence sums up why i don't take you seriously " if you want to avoid being a douchebag who's awful at sex, and possibly a rapist, it's recommended. "

So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

If your victim is incapacitated, then it goes a bit farther than you sucking at sex.


Agreed. But that's not what was referred to in the original post.
Go up and read the whole tirade on how "a man is supposed to treat a woman"
Despite the attitude that women don't "owe" men anything, but we owe them everything she is demanding.
That's my problem with all this.
equality, please.
 
2014-07-09 05:45:27 PM  

Elliot8654: So.......you apparently don't get humor, or rhetoric, or a dumb joke, or any of these concepts, eh?


You're trying to make a rhetorical point or dumb joke about rape being merely drunk sex... who is supposed to find that funny, exactly?
Rape victims? Of course not.
Normal people? Nope.
Rapists? There you go.

I'm not saying you're a rapist, but you're certainly doing your best to entertain them.
 
2014-07-09 05:47:36 PM  

Elliot8654: Theaetetus: Elliot8654: The end of that sentence sums up why i don't take you seriously " if you want to avoid being a douchebag who's awful at sex, and possibly a rapist, it's recommended. "

So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

If your victim is incapacitated, then it goes a bit farther than you sucking at sex.

Agreed. But that's not what was referred to in the original post.


The original post had a bunch of acts which included corresponding responses - in other words, not possible with an incapacitated person.

Go up and read the whole tirade on how "a man is supposed to treat a woman"
Despite the attitude that women don't "owe" men anything, but we owe them everything she is demanding.
That's my problem with all this.
equality, please.


You're the one making a bunch of dumb rape jokes, and yet you claim you're just trying to ask for equality? You're going about it in the worst way possible, you know.
 
2014-07-09 05:48:31 PM  

JesusJuice: spiritplumber: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

I lost a semester of college because of a false rape accusation, actually. Not the end of the world, but still. There's also the whole "getting locked up and having no real idea why" part, it was a very scary five days.

Something similar happened to me. She hadn't gone to the police yet but seemed to be moving in that direction. Luckily I had a few things on her that she preferred be kept private and we were able to come to an understanding.


So, first it was rape, then blackmail to keep her quiet about the rape?
 
2014-07-09 05:48:47 PM  

Theaetetus: Elliot8654: Theaetetus: Elliot8654: The end of that sentence sums up why i don't take you seriously " if you want to avoid being a douchebag who's awful at sex, and possibly a rapist, it's recommended. "

So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

If your victim is incapacitated, then it goes a bit farther than you sucking at sex.

Agreed. But that's not what was referred to in the original post.

The original post had a bunch of acts which included corresponding responses - in other words, not possible with an incapacitated person.

Go up and read the whole tirade on how "a man is supposed to treat a woman"
Despite the attitude that women don't "owe" men anything, but we owe them everything she is demanding.
That's my problem with all this.
equality, please.

You're the one making a bunch of dumb rape jokes, and yet you claim you're just trying to ask for equality? You're going about it in the worst way possible, you know.


Tried going about it in a good way. Got berated and insulted and ridiculed.
Figured if I'm going to be treated like a rapist shiatbag, might as well make bad jokes about it.
 
2014-07-09 05:49:19 PM  

KawaiiNot: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

Seriously, I wonder this too. Are more parents failing at raising their boys to be real men these days? It was not an epidemic back when I went to college and was in the military. It happened but it was much more rare.


Yes, it was an epidemic. No, it was not more rare.

People just didn't talk about it then. It wasn't rape... it was "a misunderstanding." It was "boys being boys." It was girls "leading boys on." It was girls "overreacting" and becoming "hysterical."

It was a prevalent attitude that kept thousands of women from ever reporting it. That punished those who did report it. That swept these things under the carpet, never to see judicial resolution or reach public awareness.

I've got to say, it's taking me a lot of effort to explain this. What I really want to do is look amazed and half-shout "are you kidding me? Does anyone really still think this way anymore?"

Look, either the world has inexplicably gotten so very much worse in a mere 50 years, or we're finally talking about a problem that has always existed. Which seems more likely to you?
 
2014-07-09 05:53:00 PM  

Elliot8654: So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.


Depends on the woman, but I wouldn't put it past her. Are you willing to take that chance?

See, here's where you and MRAs fail so hard: You think it's easier to get the women to change, and you're actively lobbying for that on the Internet. But I think it's much easier to just change yourselves. Worried about false rape accusations? Don't give her any reasons to falsely accuse you of rape. A satisfying night of excellent sex is the best safeguard against morning after awkwardness (in fact, if anything, the morning after should be more sex). If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to get her there, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Take responsibility!
 
2014-07-09 05:54:53 PM  

Ishkur: A satisfying night of excellent sex is the best safeguard against morning after awkwardness (in fact, if anything, the morning after should be more sex). If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to get her there, then you have no one to blame but yourself.


pillscout.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-07-09 05:55:14 PM  

Ishkur: JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after. And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.


Ho. Lee. Shiat.

Never thought I'd see *that* utterly ridiculous and thoroughly repulsive myth/excuse again.

Just... just stop posting anything ever about rape again. Just stop.
 
2014-07-09 05:56:41 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

Depends on the woman, but I wouldn't put it past her. Are you willing to take that chance?
Worried about false rape accusations? Don't give her any reasons to falsely accuse you of rape.

Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes? Are you wiling to take that chance.
Worried about being raped? Don't give guys any reason to rape you.


Congratulations, you have just turned the "She was asing for it with how she dressed" and turned it into "he was asking for it with that awful performance".
You are officially a horrible person who is setting back this issue by leaps and bounds.
You are using the same argument feminists scream about and trying to use it to justify your own position.
You hypocritical monster.
 
2014-07-09 05:57:00 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: That men take more risks is a well established FACT.


I still fail to see how that transcribes to more pertinent leadership decisions. Risk is a double-edged sword. And I never advocated a dominance of one gender or the other in any position in power. I've often said that a 50/50 split would be beneficial to all societies as it would take advantage of the habits and traits of both. Currently we do not have that.
 
2014-07-09 05:58:16 PM  

Ishkur: I still fail to see how that transcribes to more pertinent leadership decisions. Risk is a double-edged sword. And I never advocated a dominance of one gender or the other in any position in power. I've often said that a 50/50 split would be beneficial to all societies as it would take advantage of the habits and traits of both. Currently we do not have that.


It doesn't have anything to do with leadership decisions. It has to do with taking the risk to become an elected person in the first place.
 
2014-07-09 05:58:23 PM  

JackieRabbit: Khellendros: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.

"Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it.  Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

I can tell you with no reservation whatsoever that rape was NEVER tolerated when I attended college a quarter-centry ago. So don't give me the "it isn't tolerated now the way it once was." Because this is a myth; it never happened.


I'll get back to you after I stop laughing.

/it's not happy laughter
 
2014-07-09 05:59:22 PM  

Ishkur: Libelec: So, don't make any demands or unreasonable expectations, but do all this things we demand, you selfish douchebag?

Yes, it's called courtship, dumbass. You don't have to do all those things if you don't want to, but the upside of not being a total douchebag who's awful at sex is that she doesn't consider you a total douchebag who's awful at sex and possibly a rapist if she's sufficiently motivated to publicly shame your awful-sex doucheness.


Odd. I thought that by the point one reached the sex one was done with the courtship (unless one is looking for a relationship instead of sex, but then your peacock example is out of the table).

Funny also this part:

and possibly a rapist if she's sufficiently motivated to publicly shame your awful-sex doucheness.

Are you saying that if a man is bad at sex, the man is a rapist? Or that it's fine that she publicly shames him for that?

I wonder, if the girl is awful at sex, would it be OK for the man to publicly shame her? Furthermore, since you gave the example of oral sex as something a man  should do to not be considered awful, if the woman doesn't want to give you oral sex, does that make her awful? Should we shame women who don't give head?

It's a pretty farked up conception of "sex as servitude" you have there.
 
2014-07-09 06:02:52 PM  

JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?


Um, probably more like:
Women are in higher positions of power on campuses than back in the day, and know that this was a huge problem back in the day when they were a student, passes out anonymous survey to female populace and confirms: Nope. Still a problem.

Also: Better education *about* rape to women, higher awareness of it due to culture, and more women reporting results in higher visibility of a very prevalent problem.

In other words, the best way to circumvent this would be to make all students aware of what consent actually is, and how you shouldn't be drinking if you expect to get laid, you shouldn't have sex with people who have been drinking, and you should get a clear Yes before proceeding.

"Slut-shaming" doesn't really happen on college campuses anymore, either; excepting of course for female on female judging of wardrobe choices. Everybody is free to get laid how they wish, with whom, unless you are raped.

In fact the only time "Slut Shaming" seems to occur nowadays is when a girl comes forward, and says she was raped.
Even worse if she claims rape, and up until then had an active sex life.

You would think if it was such a problem before, somebody would have pointed it out, and as she didn't accuse anyone else of rape, shouldn't the accused should become even more suspect as a result?
 
2014-07-09 06:03:32 PM  

Elliot8654: Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes?


But that would be unreasonable.

Seriously, what is your objection to simply pleasing a woman so that she's actually satisfied with the encounter instead of full of regret? Is it too gross down there? You're not skilled enough with your tongue? You don't like her touching you? You can only get off like that redtube video you watched? What is it -- it's a fairly innocuous suggestion, and you're fighting me tooth and nail like it's some flagrant and grievous intrusion on your personal liberty.

Is it really that hard or are you just too selfish to give her any attention at all?
 
2014-07-09 06:04:24 PM  
From Ikanreed's link. "Legal website FindLaw emphasizes that being intoxicated is not typically a way to get out of a contract. There is an exception to this rule if the other person can prove you knew they were intoxicated and took advantage of them. For example, if you knew the supplier did not want to work with you and kept buying him drinks until he was drunk enough to sign, he might be able to get out of the contract."

Still sounds murky to me. However, for what it's worth, I can't even imagine trying to fark a woman who is passed out drunk or obviously unable to consent in any meaningful sense of the word. I mean, aside from being rape-rape, which is bad enough, I just don't see how it could be any fun. Give me a horny, willing girl any day.

\lucky to have just such a GF and she's a gem.
 
2014-07-09 06:05:52 PM  

Libelec: Are you saying that if a man is bad at sex, the man is a rapist? Or that it's fine that she publicly shames him for that?


I think Ishkur is saying that if a man is bad at sex, then a terrible woman might accuse him of rape - not that he is a rapist, but that he'd be a target for a false accusation. No implication was implied that that's fine on her part.

It's a naive and relatively unhelpful suggestion, but there is a kernel of truth to it: namely, if you're good at sex, then you're also going to be communicative with your partner, which is going to significantly decrease the odds of getting hit with a false accusation. Since, y'know, they're talking to you.
 
2014-07-09 06:06:25 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes?

But that would be unreasonable.

Seriously, what is your objection to simply pleasing a woman so that she's actually satisfied with the encounter instead of full of regret? Is it too gross down there? You're not skilled enough with your tongue? You don't like her touching you? You can only get off like that redtube video you watched? What is it -- it's a fairly innocuous suggestion, and you're fighting me tooth and nail like it's some flagrant and grievous intrusion on your personal liberty.

Is it really that hard or are you just too selfish to give her any attention at all?



You do realize you're just burying yourself deeper right?
I have no problem pleasing a woman.
I have every problem with you saying that not pleasing a woman means men may get accused of rape.
You are taking the arguments that feminists are spending their entire day trying to stop, and instead using them to threaten men.

Do you have a problem with women not pleasing men?
As I recall if a girl didn't go down on a man, you said we shouldn't force her and it's her choice.
Why are you so one sided?
 
2014-07-09 06:06:32 PM  

Elliot8654: Ishkur: JackieRabbit: Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

I think what's happening is guys are getting douchier and douchier in relationships, so it may be time to address the growing influence that Redtube and Bangbus and all the legions of misogynistic videos are having on the newer generations.

Online porn has effectively desensitized teenagers from understanding what true intimacy really is. It has made teenage girls more experimentative at a time when they probably shouldn't be and it has made boys a lot more misogynistic, selfish and demanding.

So girls: Please understand the difference between rape and just having awful sex with a douchebag. The latter is not rape but do try to avoid both if you can, and stay safe.

And guys: Please stop being selfish douchebags in bed. Online porn is just a fantasy and not in any way resembling how you should actually treat a girl. Be gentle, talk to her, appeal to her needs, kiss her all over (yes, even her hoo-ha), make her come at least once, and snuggle -- before and after. And don't make ANY demands or unreasonable expectations. If she doesn't want to go down on you, don't force her. It's not about you. She's a human being, not a human-sized fleshlight.

So yeah. That last paragraph;

"Here guys, here is a list of things you should do even if you don't want to. But if a girl doesn't want to do something, too bad".



Yea, but that's being polite in general -- whether in a sexual context or any other context.  You can't force the other person to be decent, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't make the attempt on your end.  Golden Rule and all that.  Women should basically abide by the same (well, similar) list on their end.
 
2014-07-09 06:07:26 PM  

brimed03: Look, either the world has inexplicably gotten so very much worse in a mere 50 years, or we're finally talking about a problem that has always existed. Which seems more likely to you?


Hell, it's only been around 20 years that spousal rape has been illegal in every state.
 
2014-07-09 06:07:59 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: It doesn't have anything to do with leadership decisions. It has to do with taking the risk to become an elected person in the first place.


It's never been just about politics, but about all avenues in life everywhere. Every powerbase: Politics, laws, schools, corporations, family, etc...

But the "men take more risks" does not translate to "men take all the risks". Because as soon as they were empowered, females began filling commercial and political positions, which they had never done en masse in the past because they were forbidden to do so (a fact of history that you deny). So we know that females can obtain positions in power and frequently do so when the playing field is level. The next President may be one.
 
2014-07-09 06:08:48 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Don't wanna be raped? Don't walk around in skimpy clothes?

But that would be unreasonable.

Seriously, what is your objection to simply pleasing a woman so that she's actually satisfied with the encounter instead of full of regret? Is it too gross down there? You're not skilled enough with your tongue? You don't like her touching you? You can only get off like that redtube video you watched? What is it -- it's a fairly innocuous suggestion, and you're fighting me tooth and nail like it's some flagrant and grievous intrusion on your personal liberty.

Is it really that hard or are you just too selfish to give her any attention at all?


Can you explain how your sex ability relates to the woman in the scenario claiming rape? I don't think you're helping here.
 
2014-07-09 06:09:48 PM  

JesusJuice: spiritplumber: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

I lost a semester of college because of a false rape accusation, actually. Not the end of the world, but still. There's also the whole "getting locked up and having no real idea why" part, it was a very scary five days.

Something similar happened to me. She hadn't gone to the police yet but seemed to be moving in that direction. Luckily I had a few things on her that she preferred be kept private and we were able to come to an understanding.


Summary: she was going to report you for something that wasn't, in your opinion, rape, and you blackmailed her into not doing it.

Listen, I know false accusations occur. So I'm not denying that there's a real chance that's what happened. Of course, I've also seen hundreds of men who didn't understand the legal definition of rape and wouldn't have considered action xyz to *be* rape-- even in the face of a lawyer telling them: the court calls this rape and would find you guilty on that basis. And I've seen guys who were certainly guilty retell the story while still denying they did anything wrong.

I've no idea what actually happened in your situation. I'm forming no opinion, making no judgement, attempting no guess. But I am recommending that you keep that story to yourself. Even online. There are too many variables for that to ever be a safe story for you to tell again.
 
2014-07-09 06:11:42 PM  

fireclown: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

It's still a serious, although separate problem.  The entire subject is serious, and has consequences.  False accusations should be dealt with harshly.

On to the main point:  Ladies: do not go to a college administrator if you are raped.  Go to the police.


Wrong, whomever you are, call 911, go to the Hospital ER, and request a rape kit first. Call your trusted friend/parental unit. Go to the Police.

Interesting thought: If male rape victims were taken seriously, all reports would be taken seriously. Using sexism to combat sexism.
 
2014-07-09 06:11:45 PM  

brimed03: Summary: she was going to report you for something that wasn't, in your opinion, rape, and you blackmailed her into not doing it.


It's not what you know or who you know -- it's what you know about who you know.
 
2014-07-09 06:13:27 PM  

Elliot8654: If 90% of the time it's men perpetrating a crime, then 90% of the people arrested and imprisoned should be men. I fully agree.
But to claim that it can't happen because if guys get drunk they cant get hard, so they can't rape is asinine.
Which was the implied claim of a previous post by someone else.


Uh, that's wasn't implied by the claim at ALL.  Not even close.  Here's the trail:

Khellendros: Only rarely. Unless she grabs him and forces him in, he's the one who took the action. While I'm not going to claim this doesn't happen, I would assert it is the extreme minority of cases.


Inchoate: If the guy's drunk, whiskey-dick usually inhibits penetrative rape, but there are definitely cases of women taking advantage of drunk dudes. Not common, but happens.


To which you responded:

Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.


Never was there an implication in the thread you replied to that men CAN'T raped, only that it wasn't common, and often difficult in drunken situations.  You then went on a third rail about coercion and other forms of possible rape, attempting to say it happens to both genders.

Basically, you had a snap reaction to something that wasn't said, and are full of shiat.  Your beliefs and need to side-step the problems and create false equivalency is so blatant you can't seem to step back fast enough.  And now you're trying to claim what was never said - or even implied - was what set you off.  When it was INTENTIONALLY stated by both of us that it happens, but was a very small percentage of the cases.
 
2014-07-09 06:19:26 PM  

Khellendros: This text is now purple: Khellendros: This text is now purple: Khellendros: "Kids get drunk, kids have sex, better deal with consequences, ladies" is an antiquated way of looking at it. Today, it's "whatever you did to get there, consent was never given, better deal with the consequences, gentlemen".

If both parties are drunk, two rapes have been committed.

Only rarely.  Unless she grabs him and forces him in, he's the one who took the action.  While I'm not going to claim this doesn't happen, I would assert it is the extreme minority of cases.

Perhaps you missed the part where the male was unable to legally consent. Which makes sex with such a male rape.

I didn't miss it at all - you said "if both parties are drunk". If both parties are drunk, rape is committed by the one that took action to initiate sex.  In nearly all cases, that is the male.  It's exceptionally difficult for it to be the woman (though it is possible, and likely does occur from time to time).



Why would it be difficult for the woman to initiate?  "Drunk" doesn't necessarily mean passed-out.  A person can be intoxicated beyond the ability to give meaningful consent, yet still conscious.  In such a situation, both parties might very well be conscious and reasonably active, and there's no reason the female couldn't initiate with a partner who was unable to consent.
 
2014-07-09 06:19:42 PM  

Theaetetus: I think Ishkur is saying that if a man is bad at sex, then a terrible woman might accuse him of rape - not that he is a rapist, but that he'd be a target for a false accusation. No implication was implied that that's fine on her part.

It's a naive and relatively unhelpful suggestion, but there is a kernel of truth to it: namely, if you're good at sex, then you're also going to be communicative with your partner, which is going to significantly decrease the odds of getting hit with a false accusation. Since, y'know, they're talking to you.


Leave it to the attorney to read the fine print.

It's mostly snark, but based on something important that MRAs fail to understand:

A good relationship is about consensus and compromise. You give and take in equal quantities (and qualities), and understanding your partner's needs and acquiescing to them is what people in love do. And they do it because they want to do it, because they want to see their partner happy and because it's not a power struggle. While arguments may arise every now and then, you learn to pick your battles, let some things slide, and ultimately come out to a mutual understanding from it. You can't go through life like a petulant little child who always gets his way, and if you meet someone who demands that all the time, then they aren't worth it. This applies to men and women.
 
2014-07-09 06:22:51 PM  

JesusJuice: Corvus: Ant: Define rape

To that idiot, getting a girl passed out on drinks then having sex with her is not rape.

Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.


Drunk people cannot legally give consent. The judge doesn't really care if you don't agree with that.

But the lay explanation: judgement and inhibition drop the more you drink. While we've been socially encouraged to think that this is a good thing ("have a drink, loosen up") it means you're in an altered state of mind; you aren't yourself, and therefore cannot make important decisions.

Most people would acknowledge that it would be wrong to get someone drunk and then have them sign a contract. Same thing with sex.
 
2014-07-09 06:28:16 PM  

macadamnut: Khellendros: I don't think it's happening more, it's just finally being treated as unacceptable behavior and a brighter light is being put on it.

Why not both?


Because then there would be evidence for both. And there isn't evidence that it's suddenly happening more than it used to; only that it's being reported more than it used to be. And yes, scientists more knowledgeable than you or me have statistical and methodological ways of differentiating the two, and have done so in peer-reviewed publications.

Memes are fun. They're also just memes. They don't have a place in every discussion.
 
2014-07-09 06:30:11 PM  
Currently in Minnesota and -- for the hell of it -- was looking at the Minnesota criminal code with regards to sex crimes.  Good Lord, I think this is still on the books:

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=609.34
 
2014-07-09 06:30:47 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Mikey1969: Ooooh!! I know! Women have falsely accused men of assault and rape before, so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases all of the ACTUAL attacks.

Did I move on to the bonus round?

Was your mother raped on campus and was the accused not thrown out of college?

No?

Then it's not germane to the discussion.


Fail.

You opened the discussion to the *general* topic of rape and rape allegations. You don't get to revert back to the specific when someone's point is too hard for you to handle.
 
2014-07-09 06:32:28 PM  

Khellendros: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

Congratulations on two items:

1)  Demonstrating the fallacy of misleading vividness in a nearly perfect way.

2)  Justifying your favorite tag of "Sexist Prick" for at least the third time in the last week.

I commend you.  March on!


You could use this argument in favor of capital punishment: "Eh, so a small percentage of executed people are innocent; better to kill the innocent than to let the guilty escape justice."

I'd feel a lot better about the campus rape situation if so many rape victims didn't come forward because he's cute/is the varsity sports team captain/is popular/has rich parents/maybe he'll call.........
 
2014-07-09 06:33:25 PM  

frepnog: Mikey1969: so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases

the problem was not the rape.  the problem was that your mom had a farking psycho for a boyfriend.


Oh, good. Sexual assault and murder is the fault of the victim. Yes, let's exhume that canard and put it back on display.
 
2014-07-09 06:44:17 PM  

KawaiiNot: Ant: KawaiiNot: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

Seriously, I wonder this too. Are more parents failing at raising their boys to be real men these days? It was not an epidemic back when I went to college and was in the military. It happened but it was much more rare.

It was not more rare, they just got away with it back then.

Are you a woman who went to college in the 80s/90s? I am an actual woman who lived back then and I can tell you that while I knew a few women who that happened to, it did not happen as commonly as it does today. Reported to police or not, women talk about these things with their close friends or their friends pull why they are upset out of them.

It's not just a matter of reporting it more, it's also happening much more on college campuses and the military.


Completely, absolutely, unequivocally false.

Go read up on the psychology of rape victims before spouting "sisterhood" crap about how you would have known because girls talk.

And for the record, I was in college in the late 80s/90s. While I'm not female, I had enough connections within the student and professional staff that I can tell you rape was going on and, to an extent, was being reported. The schools just weren't telling the student body about it-- because the Clery Act was still being passed and implemented, because handling it outside of the court system was still the operating rule of the day, because they were pressuring the victims to keep quiet. All of which and more is why even today it needs federal strong-arming to bring the issue into the daylight system-wide.
 
2014-07-09 06:49:47 PM  

Khellendros: Elliot8654: Because getting sex through lying, manipulation, peer pressure, drug use, or a thousand other means only happens to one gender, too.

I'm sorry, we were talking about rape.  You know, sex with at least one non-consenting party?  Not this bullshiat you're peddling.  Other than the drug use example, the rest is piles of false equivalency.


No, no, he's right.
Guy pressures girl to have sex, he's  that guy. You know the assault perpetrator. She doesn't really want to, but she can't get away.

Girl pressures guy to have sex, he keeps saying no, and then she gets pouty-faced, and sad, and the Guy doesn't really want to, but feels like he can't get away.

Or guy is a virgin and doesn't want to have sex and his girlfriend treats him like he's an idiot, and blackmails him that she'll tell all his friends, or make something up if he doesn't.

The problem is consent.
We don't apply a universal set of rules that are easy to learn, and live by, about what consent is and how it should be given.
Because of that there is not only communication issues about it, but people then try to redefine what the bad stuff actually is.
Men do not automatically consent as default.
Girls do not have to say "No" in order to get out of consent.
If there is no Yes, there is no sex.
Any party has been drinking?
Sober up before you have sex.
If it comes out YEssssssssssssssSSsss, it means No.

Talk with them until dawn(tipsy), sleep it off(stumbling), leave them alone (passed out), and above all else make sure they'll be okay as you leave them.
They do not owe you for being nice to them. If they decide "maybe not", then it wasn't meant to be.
Being nice is the first step; it's not the point of no return.

Also, if you think some girl is being manipulative and stupid and "using her pussy pass for a free night out": STOP BUYING HER DRINKS, AND SAVE YOUR MONEY.


I mean, it's not that hard to understand and follow, right?
 
2014-07-09 06:49:54 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: Oh, and as for my "douchiness", is that why I am cooking steak, pasta, and vegetables for my fiancee?

Was she homeschooled?

Elliot8654: How about instead of making me "fix my douche attitude" you encourage women as well as men to be responsible for themselves.

I did. In my very Boobies. You notice that no woman objected to my advice but the MRAs jumped all over it? That's telling. It means it's not just about women, it's a bigger complex of resisting anything might be tell them how to behave or live, which is probably why MRAs are almost always Libertarians/Objectivists.

For that is truly the heart of the whole MRA ethos: The strident individualist desire to not be controlled by ANY authority, period. They have a fierce resistance toward any group that tries to tell them how to live, how to behave, how to act, how to treat others or even how to function in society. So it all comes from the same core principle: They hate government because it legislates society, they hate religion because it enforces morality, and they also hate minority groups (or any group that's not them: white privileged males) for forcing them to obey some arcane set of social behaviors that they did not sign up for. This is where MRA comes in, which is just a political rally removed from nationalism and a burning cross removed from racism. They don't like other people telling them how they should treat others, especially religions, minorities and women. And most of them hate altruism.

There are various flavors of staunch right-wing individualism, from the mild social libertarians to the ultra-schizophrenic Sovereign Citizens (a group that denies the existence of any social institutions entirely) but most of them fall within the hard Libertarian/Objectivist camp - mostly college-aged males who just read Ayn Rand and realized that society has no right to tell them they aren't allowed to be self-righteous assholes (without consequence, of course). They also tend to be Ron Paul fol ...


why do you hate freedom so much?
 
2014-07-09 06:57:54 PM  
Stupid submitter, it's Istanbul Sex Assault Regulations now
 
2014-07-09 06:59:36 PM  

ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.


And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.
 
2014-07-09 07:12:03 PM  

gopher321: I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.


perhaps it outweighs the "media-hyped" reports, but when a good 1/3 of actual reports turn out to be false ones, it hurts everyone. womens activists often defend any woman making a claim despite all facts in evidence, and even object to any legal punishment from those caught red-handed making false claims, but all that does is make the problem worse and degrade trust in the claims of real victims coming forward.
i used to date a woman that worked in a victims support center, and like DUI's, some people with rape claims could not stop at just one. some women claimed 8 or 9 different rapes from 8 or 9 different people (usually ex-boyfriends an ex-bosses) all in the course of a couple of years she was there. some women actually actively solicited help from the support staff for helpful details to add to make a claim more believable, especially as custody fight tools.
some of the support staff were repulsed by this behaviour, but even then most supported and or helped them unquestioningly anyway, as most womens advocates have it as a bedrock tenet of faith that if anyone publicly questions any rape claim, by any woman, anywhere, ever, then the law will simply stop protecting all women, and no one will ever come forward ever again with a rape claim for fear of being doubted.
/don't even ask what they think of jail time for proven vindictive false reports, it usually degenerates into something about it being a patriarchal tool to silence women so that men can rape with impunity.
 
2014-07-09 07:14:09 PM  
We used to believe only male teachers took advantage if students. We passed all kinds of laws to protect these young women from these make predators. Funny thing started happening
 
2014-07-09 07:14:19 PM  

OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.


Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?
 
2014-07-09 07:16:32 PM  
The most important change in the sex assault regulations the Feds insist colleges implement is a switch from beyond reasonable doubt to preponderance of the evidence.  Universities are then using what can only be described as kangaroo courts to make very quick decisions, based on "she said/he said", on whether to kick the accused out of school.  Almost always the (male) student is kicked out of school.  This means one of two errors has been made.  Either he was innocent and was unjustly punished.  Or he was guilty and now a rapist has escaped punishment, and because rapists usually rape again, another woman will suffer.

The universities prefer this system because it protects their reputation.  For them, reputation is everything and nothing, not even justice, is allowed to tarnish it.  Universities should not be allowed to handle sexual assault accusations.  It should be entirely a police matter (no, not the farking campus police).  Universities should never be allowed to sweep their dirty laundry under the rug.
 
2014-07-09 07:19:20 PM  

tlars699: OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.

Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?


You're trying to equate a drunk naked woman saying "fark me" to her equally drunk date with homicidal assault?  Nice strawman.
 
2014-07-09 07:20:34 PM  

OgreMagi: tlars699: OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.

Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?

You're trying to equate a drunk naked woman saying "fark me" to her equally drunk date with homicidal assault?  Nice strawman.


negligence.  preview and proofreading is my friend.
 
2014-07-09 07:24:58 PM  

Ivan the Tolerable: gopher321: I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

perhaps it outweighs the "media-hyped" reports, but when a good 1/3 of actual reports turn out to be false ones, it hurts everyone. womens activists often defend any woman making a claim despite all facts in evidence, and even object to any legal punishment from those caught red-handed making false claims, but all that does is make the problem worse and degrade trust in the claims of real victims coming forward.
i used to date a woman that worked in a victims support center, and like DUI's, some people with rape claims could not stop at just one. some women claimed 8 or 9 different rapes from 8 or 9 different people (usually ex-boyfriends an ex-bosses) all in the course of a couple of years she was there. some women actually actively solicited help from the support staff for helpful details to add to make a claim more believable, especially as custody fight tools.
some of the support staff were repulsed by this behaviour, but even then most supported and or helped them unquestioningly anyway, as most womens advocates have it as a bedrock tenet of faith that if anyone publicly questions any rape claim, by any woman, anywhere, ever, then the law will simply stop protecting all women, and no one will ever come forward ever again with a rape claim for fear of being doubted.
/don't even ask what they think of jail time for proven vindictive false reports, it usually degenerates into something about it being a patriarchal tool to silence women so that men can rape with impunity.


This is demonstrably false as seen in this thread, as provided by Hardinparamedic's quotes. It's more like 4-6% of claims made that are false, per any other report-able crime.

It's very concerning that your gf and all the victim help center people could prove that there were women making false claims, and letting it go through without informing some defense lawyers on where to get some proof at the very least; I mean seriously, 8-9 reports within 8-9 years? and there's a pattern to the lady's reports? I'm surprised that the defense lawyer wouldn't immediately pull up her record for reporting and use that to defend his client.

There is also the possibility that a victim keeps putting herself through the being raped cycle, because she's not getting the counseling needed to spot a pattern and prevent it.
If all of your boyfriends are abusive rapists, then maybe you need to get some therapy to figure out how you seem to be finding all of the abusive rapists in the area for boyfriends.

Tell me MRA wingjobs in the thread: Are there support groups for abusive rapists to get together and talk about their strategies?
I know the RadFems like to laugh online about how men get abused. It would seem only fair.
 
2014-07-09 07:31:19 PM  

OgreMagi: tlars699: OgreMagi: ikanreed: If you felt taken advantage of, yes. Christ, this isn't actually hard. If you had taken advantage of her state the fact that you were drunk wouldn't have been an excuse, and vice versa is also true.

And that's where we have a problem.  The new rules are a woman can't be held responsible if she is drunk, but a man is absolutely responsible if he is drunk and considered a rapist even if it was consensual.  Drunk people, both men and women, make stupid choices when drunk. To expect a man to magically overcome a state of inebriation and make the rational choice to stop when his drunk date is saying "let's do it!" is not reasonable.

Wouldn't that be prosecuted as "Sexual Assault" rather than "Rape"?
Or are we going to stop prosecuting "Homicidal Negligence" and call it all "Murder" now?

You're trying to equate a drunk naked woman saying "fark me" to her equally drunk date with homicidal assault?  Nice strawman.


No, I was using car accidents being the fault of a drunk driver, and someone ending up dead in the resulting accident as a comparison. Perp would still be drunk, but a lesser sentence would be the result of the criminal's inebriation.

I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

If she hops on him anyway, he should call 911, and report an assault on her.
 
2014-07-09 07:35:32 PM  

tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.


It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?
 
2014-07-09 07:35:56 PM  
Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.
 
2014-07-09 07:37:47 PM  

tlars699: Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.


How else am I supposed to meet "the one" other than at the local psychiatric hospital?  And we already know how that turned out.
 
2014-07-09 07:46:06 PM  

OgreMagi: tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?


In any sensible one, where they say "But Baby, I want to get to know you first- you know, talk until the sun rises" instead, because the unsaid bits are (because I can smell the EverClear on your breath and please just get mad and leave if you feel rejected, because I don't want to have to babysit tonight.)

Also, I would say that the more drunk person has the least responsibility.
As women have a harder time processing the same volume of alcohol as men, that would mean on average women would be the persons being taken advantage of in a drunken state.
However, "taking advantage" of either party can be avoided in general if women are told: You get drunk, you go home to Your House, and do NOT have sex or plan to while inebriated.
And if men are told: You SHOULD say NO to the drunk girl flinging her panties at you. If her panties stay off while sober, have at it, but until she's sober, NO!!!!! If she keeps wheedling you about it, she is trying to coerce you, and you should have her leave. You have the right to say NO.

Making the guy responsible in that situation might encourage the whole idea of men having consent options, as well.
As a temporary measure until our culture catches up to this idea, this rule? Meh. I'm having a hard time having a problem with it.
If the girl wants to get laid that badly, she can do it sober.
Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.
 
2014-07-09 07:48:16 PM  

OgreMagi: tlars699: Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.

How else am I supposed to meet "the one" other than at the local psychiatric hospital?  And we already know how that turned out.


You could meet them at a gaming convention, or through a D&D group, and then re-meeting at a sushi place 6 years later, like I did.
 
2014-07-09 07:51:41 PM  

tlars699: OgreMagi: tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?

In any sensible one, where they say "But Baby, I want to get to know you first- you know, talk until the sun rises" instead, because the unsaid bits are (because I can smell the EverClear on your breath and please just get mad and leave if you feel rejected, because I don't want to have to babysit tonight.)

Also, I would say that the more drunk person has the least responsibility.
As women have a harder time processing the same volume of alcohol as men, that would mean on average women would be the persons being taken advantage of in a drunken state.
However, "taking advantage" of either party can be avoided in general if women are told: You get drunk, you go home to Your House, and do NOT have sex or plan to while inebriated.
And if men are told: You SHOULD say NO to the drunk girl flinging her panties at you. If her panties stay off while sober, have at it, but until she's sober, NO!!!!! If she keeps wheedling you about it, she is trying to coerce you, and you should have her leave. You have the right to say NO.

Making the guy responsible in that situation might encourage the whole idea of men having consent options, as well.
As a temporary measure until our culture catches up to this idea, this rule? Meh. I'm having a hard time having a problem with it.
If the girl wants to get laid that badly, she can do it sober.
Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.


Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.

Yeah, that will go well on the whole....
 
2014-07-09 07:52:50 PM  

tlars699: OgreMagi: tlars699: Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.

How else am I supposed to meet "the one" other than at the local psychiatric hospital?  And we already know how that turned out.

You could meet them at a gaming convention, or through a D&D group, and then re-meeting at a sushi place 6 years later, like I did.


I haven't been to a gaming convention is god knows how long.  Way back then (during the jurassic), women into gaming was extremely limited.
 
2014-07-09 07:53:56 PM  

tlars699: This is demonstrably false as seen in this thread, as provided by Hardinparamedic's quotes. It's more like 4-6% of claims made that are false, per any other report-able crime.

It's very concerning that your gf and all the victim help center people could prove that there were women making false claims, and letting it go through without informing some defense lawyers on where to get some proof at the very least; I mean seriously, 8-9 reports within 8-9 years? and there's a pattern to the lady's reports? I'm surprised that the defense lawyer wouldn't immediately pull up her record for reporting and use that to defend his client.


there is a difference between cases that actually went to court of law, and all the claims that came through their center for help. they obviously got a whole lot of claims that never went anywhere, or that the police would not touch with a ten-foot pole. often times calls were from women requesting the centers help to force the police to act on a claim 'the police were ignoring', and when they checked it was almost invariably that the police had actually investigated and found it didn't have the credibility to pass the sniff test.
i would hope that the false claims actually making it to criminal charges would be winnowed down to single-digit numbers, but the claims made in anger, either for attention, to throw blame for infidelity elsewhere, or whatever, are very much higher.
 
2014-07-09 07:54:25 PM  

Elliot8654: Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.

Yeah, that will go well on the whole....


Exactly my point, which has been repeatedly ignored.  Drunk people make stupid choices.  Drunk guys faced with naked boobies saying "fark me" will only make one choice.
 
2014-07-09 08:04:19 PM  

brimed03: You opened the discussion to the *general* topic of rape and rape allegations. You don't get to revert back to the specific when someone's point is too hard for you to handle.


FAIL

You didn't click on the link where you say I "opened" the topic. So your claim is a strawman.
 
2014-07-09 08:07:12 PM  

KawaiiNot: JackieRabbit: I have been wondering: What the hell is going on here? Have men started raping women on campuses at unprecedented rates? Can college-aged boys be more prone to sexual violence today than in other generations?

I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Younger farkers: is or was rape a problem at your school?

Seriously, I wonder this too. Are more parents failing at raising their boys to be real men these days? It was not an epidemic back when I went to college and was in the military. It happened but it was much more rare.


When did rape and military service become mutually exclusive?

everypainterpaintshimself.com
 
2014-07-09 08:07:15 PM  

OgreMagi: tlars699: OgreMagi: tlars699: Note: If both parties were arrested for having drunk sex, maybe the divorce rate would go down, because people would stop meeting their "life-mates" at the bar scene.

How else am I supposed to meet "the one" other than at the local psychiatric hospital?  And we already know how that turned out.

You could meet them at a gaming convention, or through a D&D group, and then re-meeting at a sushi place 6 years later, like I did.

I haven't been to a gaming convention is god knows how long.  Way back then (during the jurassic), women into gaming was extremely limited.


Well.... it still sort of is... I guess.... I'm one of three girls that go to the Comic Shop of MTG Fridays, (About 10 dudes show up, and of us three girls, only two make it any given week.)

Since 3.5 made the rules make more sense (I know; I've played Thac0 2nd ed most recently, still prefer the 1 d20 for majority of rolls- and any 1 d system? WAAAAAAAY Better. Champions/Shadowrun/Gurps= <3) there have been more ladies interested on average, and more laides have come because of brainy chicks being into fantasy more often than biographies lately.

4th ed is a pile of crap though, and I would much rather play Pathfinder than that bunk of bull.

There are also quite a few more conventions to be able to go to nowadays as well, due to the anime/comic crowds. Quite a few pics of really good and hot cosplayers, too. :D

Unfortunately, I don't have any real cis-girl friends to hook you up with, as most of the people I socialize with are either males in my peer group, or older women at work. :\
 
2014-07-09 08:11:42 PM  

Elliot8654: tlars699: OgreMagi: tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?

In any sensible one, where they say "But Baby, I want to get to know you first- you know, talk until the sun rises" instead, because the unsaid bits are (because I can smell the EverClear on your breath and please just get mad and leave if you feel rejected, because I don't want to have to babysit tonight.)

Also, I would say that the more drunk person has the least responsibility.
As women have a harder time processing the same volume of alcohol as men, that would mean on average women would be the persons being taken advantage of in a drunken state.
However, "taking advantage" of either party can be avoided in general if women are told: You get drunk, you go home to Your House, and do NOT have sex or plan to while inebriated.
And if men are told: You SHOULD say NO to the drunk girl flinging her panties at you. If her panties stay off while sober, have at it, but until she's sober, NO!!!!! If she keeps wheedling you about it, she is trying to coerce you, and you should have her leave. You have the right to say NO.

Making the guy responsible in that situation might encourage the whole idea of men having consent options, as well.
As a temporary measure until our culture catches up to this idea, this rule? Meh. I'm having a hard time having a problem with it.
If the girl wants to get laid that badly, she can do it sober.
Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.

Only problem. You're talking about drunk people ...


It's just like handing car keys to another one of your friends, or them forcing you to give them up when they know you've had more than "that one 3 hours ago".

Or you know, maybe we could get over the whole drinking for recreation thing.

I know, I know, "that's crazy talk!!". :\

If only more people played D&D, instead of UUNTSS UUNTSS UUNTSS *do ewes come in here off 10?*
UUNTSS UUNTSS UUNTSS *NAAAAAAOOW giggle you're cute!! Let's dance!!*
 
2014-07-09 08:11:59 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: When did rape and military service become mutually exclusive?


Quite a while ago. These days, if you rape someone or even take negative action against someone that was raped, you are going to face serious consequences. The military takes that very seriously.
 
2014-07-09 08:13:46 PM  

tlars699: It's just like handing car keys to another one of your friends, or them forcing you to give them up when they know you've had more than "that one 3 hours ago".


This guy's pretty smart. His posts here have been some of the only ones that actually make any sense at all.
 
2014-07-09 08:14:18 PM  

OgreMagi: Elliot8654: Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.

Yeah, that will go well on the whole....

Exactly my point, which has been repeatedly ignored.  Drunk people make stupid choices.  Drunk guys faced with naked boobies saying "fark me" will only make one choice.


Actually, I have to refute that based on some anecdotes I have.

It sucks being drunk and rejected, btw. Lots of depressants in a system getting depressed? Yeah, no good.
 
2014-07-09 08:15:05 PM  

Tobin_Lam: tlars699: It's just like handing car keys to another one of your friends, or them forcing you to give them up when they know you've had more than "that one 3 hours ago".

This guy's pretty smart. His posts here have been some of the only ones that actually make any sense at all.


I'm a girl. But we coo. We coo.
 
2014-07-09 08:20:39 PM  

tlars699: OgreMagi: Elliot8654: Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.

Yeah, that will go well on the whole....

Exactly my point, which has been repeatedly ignored.  Drunk people make stupid choices.  Drunk guys faced with naked boobies saying "fark me" will only make one choice.

Actually, I have to refute that based on some anecdotes I have.

It sucks being drunk and rejected, btw. Lots of depressants in a system getting depressed? Yeah, no good.


Maybe I should clarify that.  A drunk college guy isn't going to say no.  I'm a bit older and have said no even when I was drunk because I've learned some common sense and ethics that stick despite the alcohol.  I have two rules regarding sex.  1. Don't fark married women.  2. Don't fark someone I won't want to see tomorrow.

Sadly, I never get the opportunity to test my commitment to these rules.  Not any more.
 
2014-07-09 08:24:57 PM  

Ishkur: And the fact that human cultures were at one time egalitarian (before the Age of Agriculture) suggests that our gender roles are fairly more nuanced and complicated than other sapien species, and that patriarchy is a function of social organization and not an endemic evolutionary trait of the species.


Patriarchy doesn't exist. It's a fairly good description of some ancient civilizations but a poor description of a modern democracy.

Ishkur: I take it you are neither an anthropologist, economist, sociologist or demographer, and you quite simply do not have the knowledge or the education to even attempt to assert that you know what you are talking about.


That is an  ad hominem fallacy. Whether I have had or had not done graduate level work in Culture and Evolution is not relevant because the level of comprehension that is required is minute. I believe that you can even understand it if you are not too busy obfuscating and creating strawmen.

Ishkur: Theaetetus: I think Ishkur is saying that if a man is bad at sex,


You guys kinda have the same writing style. Are you sure you aren't the same person?
 
2014-07-09 08:25:13 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Oh Jesus this thread is full of MRAs.

/quit


"Stop defending yourself!  Stop defending yourself!"
 
2014-07-09 08:36:36 PM  

Devil's Playground: JesusJuice: spiritplumber: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

I lost a semester of college because of a false rape accusation, actually. Not the end of the world, but still. There's also the whole "getting locked up and having no real idea why" part, it was a very scary five days.

Something similar happened to me. She hadn't gone to the police yet but seemed to be moving in that direction. Luckily I had a few things on her that she preferred be kept private and we were able to come to an understanding.

So, first it was rape, then blackmail to keep her quiet about the rape?


Nah, she was just pissed that I didn't want a relationship with her and figured that because she thought the sex meant something and I didn't it meant I'd raped her.

I did blackmail her, though. Won't deny that. Don't regret it.
 
2014-07-09 08:38:45 PM  

tlars699: Elliot8654: tlars699: OgreMagi: tlars699: I do agree that it seems a mite ridiculous to have the guy as the only responsible party in that situation.
But the guy can always go sleep it off on the couch, just as the drunk driver can always pass of his keys.

It's not a mite ridiculous.  It's a big farking gross miscarriage of injustice.  Ladies, if you demand equal rights, you must accept equal responsibility.

As for a drunk guy telling a naked drunk girl to stop.  In what universe is that going to happen?

In any sensible one, where they say "But Baby, I want to get to know you first- you know, talk until the sun rises" instead, because the unsaid bits are (because I can smell the EverClear on your breath and please just get mad and leave if you feel rejected, because I don't want to have to babysit tonight.)

Also, I would say that the more drunk person has the least responsibility.
As women have a harder time processing the same volume of alcohol as men, that would mean on average women would be the persons being taken advantage of in a drunken state.
However, "taking advantage" of either party can be avoided in general if women are told: You get drunk, you go home to Your House, and do NOT have sex or plan to while inebriated.
And if men are told: You SHOULD say NO to the drunk girl flinging her panties at you. If her panties stay off while sober, have at it, but until she's sober, NO!!!!! If she keeps wheedling you about it, she is trying to coerce you, and you should have her leave. You have the right to say NO.

Making the guy responsible in that situation might encourage the whole idea of men having consent options, as well.
As a temporary measure until our culture catches up to this idea, this rule? Meh. I'm having a hard time having a problem with it.
If the girl wants to get laid that badly, she can do it sober.
Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.

Only problem. You're talking about drunk people ...

It's just like handing car keys to another one of your friends, or them forcing you to give them up when they know you've had more than "that one 3 hours ago".

Or you know, maybe we could get over the whole drinking for recreation thing.

I know, I know, "that's crazy talk!!". :\

If only more people played D&D, instead of UUNTSS UUNTSS UUNTSS *do ewes come in here off 10?*
UUNTSS UUNTSS UUNTSS *NAAAAAAOOW giggle you're cute!! Let's dance!!*


Dude, drinking and playing D&D was my weekend.

Lemme tell you about a dwarven reaping mauler who choke slammed a dragon....
 
2014-07-09 08:39:07 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: so in the reverse, if I'm really good at sex, is it not rape now?

That's almost an oxymoron. Is there such a thing as a good rapist? If the girl doesn't want it, you can't make her want it. If the girl wants it and you fail to deliver, you're an awful douchebag who's bad in bed.

Since you have admitted having a number of the latter occurrences, that makes you an awful douchebag who's bad in bed. Complaining to me isn't going to help things. Read some DH Lawrence.



You leave coal miners out of this!
 
2014-07-09 08:42:36 PM  
This constant bleating of "MRA" everytime someone asks a question or has a poor experience is ridiculous. You aren't doing any good for the people you claim to be defending, and observers start to wonder why they can't be addressed civily.

You are no better than religious busybodies labeling everything and everyone you don't like as heresy and heretics.
 
2014-07-09 08:47:53 PM  

brimed03: JesusJuice: Corvus: Ant: Define rape

To that idiot, getting a girl passed out on drinks then having sex with her is not rape.

Passed out is not the same as drunk. Drunk people can consent, passed out people cannot.

Drunk people cannot legally give consent. The judge doesn't really care if you don't agree with that.

But the lay explanation: judgement and inhibition drop the more you drink. While we've been socially encouraged to think that this is a good thing ("have a drink, loosen up") it means you're in an altered state of mind; you aren't yourself, and therefore cannot make important decisions.

Most people would acknowledge that it would be wrong to get someone drunk and then have them sign a contract. Same thing with sex.


Yet if someone gets behind the wheel of a car, even if I beg them to drive, they're still responsible.

You're absolutely mistaken about intoxication negating consent. Consent is consent. If someone is so drunk as to be INCAPACITATED, then consent is impossible. To sum up:

Girl gets drunk, becomes sloppy and incoherent, and people have sex with her in this state. That's rape.

Girl gets drunk, gets horny, and has enthusiastic sex with someone she wouldn't normally want to sleep with. NOT RAPE.
 
2014-07-09 08:49:11 PM  

JesusJuice: Nah, she was just pissed that I didn't want a relationship with her and figured that because she thought the sex meant something and I didn't it meant I'd raped her.


Thats actually what we were taught 'rape' was in college. They considered that any consent done under false pretenses meant the consent wasn't fully informed and therefore rape, even if the person was willing at the time.

/So yes, by their rules; Saying you will call her later, and then not doing it, constituted prosecutable rape.
//Yes, that complaint actually did happen, and yes, the university did call in the police to perform an arrest.
///No, the police wouldn't have any of that nonsense.
 
2014-07-09 08:56:06 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Patriarchy doesn't exist.


Yes it does.

Because People in power are Stupid: It's a fairly good description of some ancient civilizations but a poor description of a modern democracy.


Oh? And at what point did modern democracy stop being a patriarchal institution?

Because People in power are Stupid: That is an ad hominem fallacy.


Actually, it's closer to argumentum ad authoritatum fallacy, but it's neither because it's true. I'm simply not interested in having a discussion with someone who's not very knowledgeable in the subject matter and refuses to accept basic facts. It's like having an argument with a schizophrenic.
 
2014-07-09 09:08:47 PM  

Ishkur: Because People in power are Stupid: Patriarchy doesn't exist.

Yes it does.

Because People in power are Stupid: It's a fairly good description of some ancient civilizations but a poor description of a modern democracy.

Oh? And at what point did modern democracy stop being a patriarchal institution?

Because People in power are Stupid: That is an ad hominem fallacy.

Actually, it's closer to argumentum ad authoritatum fallacy, but it's neither because it's true. I'm simply not interested in having a discussion with someone who's not very knowledgeable in the subject matter and refuses to accept basic facts. It's like having an argument with a schizophrenic.


Help me out here is Patriarchy Theory falsifiable? How does one test for Patriarchy?

A lot of assertions not a whole lot of data.
 
2014-07-09 09:13:45 PM  

sinisterben: How does one test for Patriarchy?


On th Maury Show, obviously

s3.amazonaws.com
 
2014-07-09 09:13:46 PM  

sinisterben: Ishkur: Because People in power are Stupid: Patriarchy doesn't exist.

Yes it does.

Because People in power are Stupid: It's a fairly good description of some ancient civilizations but a poor description of a modern democracy.

Oh? And at what point did modern democracy stop being a patriarchal institution?

Because People in power are Stupid: That is an ad hominem fallacy.

Actually, it's closer to argumentum ad authoritatum fallacy, but it's neither because it's true. I'm simply not interested in having a discussion with someone who's not very knowledgeable in the subject matter and refuses to accept basic facts. It's like having an argument with a schizophrenic.

Help me out here is Patriarchy Theory falsifiable? How does one test for Patriarchy?

A lot of assertions not a whole lot of data.


Don't debate with GWSS majors, they argue from emotion rather than rationality and empiricism. They have nothing to add to an intelligent conversation but unfounded and misinformed invective and are best ignored.
 
2014-07-09 09:26:13 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: sinisterben: How does one test for Patriarchy?

On th Maury Show, obviously


Okay, you owe me a monitor and a new soda.
 
2014-07-09 09:34:57 PM  

Ivan the Tolerable: JesusJuice: Nah, she was just pissed that I didn't want a relationship with her and figured that because she thought the sex meant something and I didn't it meant I'd raped her.

Thats actually what we were taught 'rape' was in college. They considered that any consent done under false pretenses meant the consent wasn't fully informed and therefore rape, even if the person was willing at the time.

/So yes, by their rules; Saying you will call her later, and then not doing it, constituted prosecutable rape.
//Yes, that complaint actually did happen, and yes, the university did call in the police to perform an arrest.
///No, the police wouldn't have any of that nonsense.


MRA! You should have been a better lover!

//Does this reposnse make sense to anyone?
 
2014-07-09 09:43:03 PM  

sinisterben: Help me out here is Patriarchy Theory falsifiable? How does one test for Patriarchy?


Patriarchy simply means rule by men.

So look up the leaders and rulers of all social, political, religious, commercial and martial institutions, at the local, state, national and international level. If they are predominantly male and/or if those institutions have special rules restricting access or participation in them from females, then you can safely say that they are patriarchies.
 
2014-07-09 09:46:06 PM  

Tobin_Lam: BolshyGreatYarblocks: When did rape and military service become mutually exclusive?

Quite a while ago. These days, if you rape someone or even take negative action against someone that was raped, you are going to face serious consequences. The military takes that very seriously.


Or claims it does.  It says the same about torture, about killing POWs, about killing civilians.........


And it always has.
 
2014-07-09 09:47:00 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Help me out here is Patriarchy Theory falsifiable? How does one test for Patriarchy?

Patriarchy simply means rule by men.

So look up the leaders and rulers of all social, political, religious, commercial and martial institutions, at the local, state, national and international level. If they are predominantly male and/or if those institutions have special rules restricting access or participation in them from females, then you can safely say that they are patriarchies.


Okay, Rule by Men. Are women still over half of the voting population? How exactly does that work out?
 
2014-07-09 09:49:22 PM  

sinisterben: Are women still over half of the voting population? How exactly does that work out?


How does what work out? What are you asking?
 
2014-07-09 09:55:17 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Are women still over half of the voting population? How exactly does that work out?

How does what work out? What are you asking?


Last I checked, voters pick who represents us. If the opression was so detrimental, couldn't this rule by men be usurped by simple population numbers?

And that is assuming not one vote is cast in favor by men. Who as I recall voted to allow women the right to vote. It would seem to me that the rule by men isn't as clear cut as you would like it to be.
 
2014-07-09 09:55:57 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Help me out here is Patriarchy Theory falsifiable? How does one test for Patriarchy?

Patriarchy simply means rule by men.

So look up the leaders and rulers of all social, political, religious, commercial and martial institutions, at the local, state, national and international level. If they are predominantly male and/or if those institutions have special rules restricting access or participation in them from females, then you can safely say that they are patriarchies.


Well, we will be on a patriarchy for a while yet then. Feminism went on a victimhood bender between versions 2.0 and 3.0 and aren't capable of leading a burger flipping shift without getting triggered and needing time off and counselling.

You need confident, dependable, responsible people for certain positions in society, and being the worlds biggest victim (in need of the greatest care) means that is not you.
 
2014-07-09 10:01:15 PM  

sinisterben: Last I checked, voters pick who represents us


You really think voting determines the system of rule? ...oh, you're just adorable.

Okay, now make excuses for the social, religious, commercial and martial institutions as well.
 
2014-07-09 10:06:34 PM  
This thread eerily reminds me of mass shooting threads where some people come in defending their guns and acting like the real victims.
 
2014-07-09 10:06:45 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Last I checked, voters pick who represents us

You really think voting determines the system of rule? ...oh, you're just adorable.

Okay, now make excuses for the social, religious, commercial and martial institutions as well.


Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.
 
2014-07-09 10:09:08 PM  

zzrhardy: Well, we will be on a patriarchy for a while yet then.


Oh we will, but not because of feminism. Cultural shifts and attitudes take generations to go through various Hegelian dialectics (MRA is the antithesis to the feminism thesis -- about time it showed up), and from experience and observation, it's never the old generations that are converted but rather the new generations are brought up with something different and accept it as normal while the old ones die off. We're seeing the same thing with the Tea Party: old people resisting change while dying off.

We'll be long dead before true gender or racial equality is reached.
 
2014-07-09 10:09:16 PM  

Pichu0102: This thread eerily reminds me of mass shooting threads where some people come in defending their guns and acting like the real victims.


Yes of course asking questions is just like mass murder threads. Christ, I never said I was a victim, but still there it is. Categorise and dismiss, it's way easier than discussing things openly.
 
2014-07-09 10:10:41 PM  

sinisterben: Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.


Because you want to dispute the existence of patriarchy. I pointed out where it exists, and you decided to ignore everything but politics. Politics wasn't my argument.
 
2014-07-09 10:12:24 PM  

Ishkur: zzrhardy: Well, we will be on a patriarchy for a while yet then.

Oh we will, but not because of feminism. Cultural shifts and attitudes take generations to go through various Hegelian dialectics (MRA is the antithesis to the feminism thesis -- about time it showed up), and from experience and observation, it's never the old generations that are converted but rather the new generations are brought up with something different and accept it as normal while the old ones die off. We're seeing the same thing with the Tea Party: old people resisting change while dying off.

We'll be long dead before true gender or racial equality is reached.


Has this patriarchy done anything to benefit women? Why is parity not an acceptable outcome? Does patriarchy harm men in any way?
 
2014-07-09 10:15:09 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: Tobin_Lam: BolshyGreatYarblocks: When did rape and military service become mutually exclusive?

Quite a while ago. These days, if you rape someone or even take negative action against someone that was raped, you are going to face serious consequences. The military takes that very seriously.

Or claims it does.  It says the same about torture, about killing POWs, about killing civilians.........


And it always has.


They must be making it up when they send out monthly summaries of disciplinary actions. Last month, an Army Lt Col was in there for trying to get a Lt that was sexually assaulted to quit. He didn't want to deal with her and tried to force her out. He got punished by a General above him. I saw the redacted documentation myself, along with thousands of others. Do you really think the Army was making it up?
 
2014-07-09 10:16:13 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.

Because you want to dispute the existence of patriarchy. I pointed out where it exists, and you decided to ignore everything but politics. Politics wasn't my argument.


Wow, you know, I have the ability fo define monarchy, or oligarghy, or theocracy, and I can even define ways to falsify those definitions. But you, you get to assert a fact, and I have to just accept it. Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind? Of course not, because, patriarchy.
 
2014-07-09 10:16:33 PM  

Elliot8654: tlars699:Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.

Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.


Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with hunger urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered not to drive to White Castle.

I think your logic just excused drunk driving on a "boys will be boys" defense.
 
2014-07-09 10:17:49 PM  

Theaetetus: Elliot8654: tlars699:Guy forces girl to sober up first for fear of consequences? Yeah, having a hard time with the problem there.

Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with sexual urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered.

Only problem. You're talking about drunk people with hunger urges using logic and reason and good judgment at 2 am while hammered not to drive to White Castle.

I think your logic just excused drunk driving on a "boys will be boys" defense.


Or assumed drunk driving happens no matter how illegal it is.
 
2014-07-09 10:18:16 PM  

sinisterben: Has this patriarchy done anything to benefit women?


It wouldn't see the point.

sinisterben: Why is parity not an acceptable outcome?


It is. Eventually.

sinisterben: Does patriarchy harm men in any way?


That's an odd thing to ask. It's like saying "does being hot hurt the sun?"
 
2014-07-09 10:19:24 PM  

sinisterben: Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind?


Did women create England's institutional monarchy?
 
2014-07-09 10:20:27 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Has this patriarchy done anything to benefit women?

It wouldn't see the point.

sinisterben: Why is parity not an acceptable outcome?

It is. Eventually.

sinisterben: Does patriarchy harm men in any way?

That's an odd thing to ask. It's like saying "does being hot hurt the sun?"


Hand waving. Awesome. Good talk. Can god make a taco so large he can't eat it? That's awesome.
 
2014-07-09 10:22:49 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind?

Did women create England's institutional monarchy?


Wait so now women have to create a system before it can be anything but patriarchy? You are proving my point here, you aren't defining anything meaningful.
 
2014-07-09 10:45:18 PM  

Ishkur: Elliot8654: So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

Depends on the woman, but I wouldn't put it past her. Are you willing to take that chance?

See, here's where you and MRAs fail so hard: You think it's easier to get the women to change, and you're actively lobbying for that on the Internet. But I think it's much easier to just change yourselves. Worried about false rape accusations? Don't give her any reasons to falsely accuse you of rape. A satisfying night of excellent sex is the best safeguard against morning after awkwardness (in fact, if anything, the morning after should be more sex). If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to get her there, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Take responsibility!


This is terrifying. Are you actually insane? Did you actually type this?

Does anyone actually agree with this monster?
 
2014-07-09 10:46:04 PM  

gopher321: I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.


So long as we refuse to admit false rape is a real issue there's no way we will know if this is true or not.  It probably is but that's by no means certain.

Because People in power are Stupid: An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

3.bp.blogspot.com


I don't get the impression they take quite that position.  However, I have seen multiple people express an opinion close to it:

1)  False rape doesn't matter so long as real rape is more frequent than false rape.  They don't accept the basic premise of our legal system that's better for the guilty to walk than the innocent to go to jail.

2)  A woman who isn't crazy doesn't lie about it.  Thus her accusation is enough to convict barring an ironclad alibi.

Also, anyone who argues against this position must be a misogynist.

Corvus: So why doesn't that work both ways?

Why do we have to repeal the laws so that more men get off legitimating raping women on the basis that some women make false allegations?


Because our legal system is based on a presumption of innocence.   That's what this garbage is about--avoiding the pesky innocent until proven guilty bit.

Mikey1969: Ooooh!! I know! Women have falsely accused men of assault and rape before, so that means that I really didn't watch my mother get raped and beaten to death by her boyfriend when I was 5 because 1 false accusations erases all of the ACTUAL attacks.


The problem cases are he-said/she-said.  That's not what you are describing.

hardinparamedic: As someone who has been falsely accused of rape and blackmailed over the situation in the past when he was 19, he's full of shiat. False rape accusations do occur - however, they are the rare exception rather than the rule of reporting. In addition, while it is a destructive way to try to ruin someone's life, it is exceptionally rare, with questionable reporting encompassing around 4.6 to 6% of all reported rapes, and false reporting definitively identified in <1% of rape reports.


The lowest reasonable number I have seen is 8%--and I think that number must be low because by it's nature it would not count any case where the cops convinced her not to file a false report.

Khellendros: Using your above list:

1) Children can't be consenting parties. Duh. Nearly 100% of cases are males as the perpetrator.
2) Was there a threat involved? If so, one party wasn't freely consenting. Typically male pepetrator, but some females as well.
3) Define "pressure". Too vague to evaluate.
4) "Expectations" are not rape. Sex with a non-consenting person is rape. The example cites males as the perpetrator.
5) Non consenting party, again. Duh. The example itself cites males as the perpetrator.
6) Not medically necessary? Duh again.


#2 and #3 are really two points on a range, not separate items.  And it depends on the nature of the threat whether it's rape or not.  "If you don't have sex with me I'm leaving" is not rape even if it's a pretty serious threat to her (she has no job or money.)

Theaetetus: From the very first line on that page: "Our definition of rape is broader than most conventional or legal definitions."


Exactly.  That's where the high number of rapes come from.

lollipops: The police and campus nurse were exacerbated because they said there was nothing I could do and basically treated me like I was making it up (because I was too afraid and embarrassed to get prompt medical attention and only went when I wasn't healing).


There is nothing they could do.  If you want to get the guy convicted you need to report it promptly.

Ivan the Tolerable: there is a difference between cases that actually went to court of law, and all the claims that came through their center for help. they obviously got a whole lot of claims that never went anywhere, or that the police would not touch with a ten-foot pole. often times calls were from women requesting the centers help to force the police to act on a claim 'the police were ignoring', and when they checked it was almost invariably that the police had actually investigated and found it didn't have the credibility to pass the sniff test.
i would hope that the false claims actually making it to criminal charges would be winnowed down to single-digit numbers, but the claims made in anger, either for attention, to throw blame for infidelity elsewhere, or whatever, are very much higher.


Yeah, when these threads come along there's usually somebody like you that either was in the trenches or was close with someone who did--I hear the same basic pattern repeatedly.  The false claim rate is high but most get promptly weeded out by the police.

Unfortunately, the schools aren't doing that weeding.
 
2014-07-09 11:21:52 PM  

Brostorm: Ishkur: Elliot8654: So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

Depends on the woman, but I wouldn't put it past her. Are you willing to take that chance?

See, here's where you and MRAs fail so hard: You think it's easier to get the women to change, and you're actively lobbying for that on the Internet. But I think it's much easier to just change yourselves. Worried about false rape accusations? Don't give her any reasons to falsely accuse you of rape. A satisfying night of excellent sex is the best safeguard against morning after awkwardness (in fact, if anything, the morning after should be more sex). If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to get her there, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Take responsibility!


This is terrifying. Are you actually insane? Did you actually type this?

Does anyone actually agree with this monster?


Well - it is the realist view.

Just accept that any interaction you have as a male with a female (hookup, date, live with, marry, procreate with) is done under the condition that they hold a loaded gun against your head and can pull the trigger at any time if you fail to keep them sufficiently amused.

Once you realize that is the underlying legal framework that is been carefully crafted, then everything else falls into place.
 
2014-07-09 11:28:22 PM  

zzrhardy: Brostorm: Ishkur: Elliot8654: So if we suck at sex, we may get accused of rape.

Depends on the woman, but I wouldn't put it past her. Are you willing to take that chance?

See, here's where you and MRAs fail so hard: You think it's easier to get the women to change, and you're actively lobbying for that on the Internet. But I think it's much easier to just change yourselves. Worried about false rape accusations? Don't give her any reasons to falsely accuse you of rape. A satisfying night of excellent sex is the best safeguard against morning after awkwardness (in fact, if anything, the morning after should be more sex). If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to get her there, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Take responsibility!


This is terrifying. Are you actually insane? Did you actually type this?

Does anyone actually agree with this monster?

Well - it is the realist view.

Just accept that any interaction you have as a male with a female (hookup, date, live with, marry, procreate with) is done under the condition that they hold a loaded gun against your head and can pull the trigger at any time if you fail to keep them sufficiently amused.

Once you realize that is the underlying legal framework that is been carefully crafted, then everything else falls into place.


Thankfully, not all want or abuse that privledge, and most women aren't that malicious.
 
2014-07-09 11:37:08 PM  

sinisterben: Thankfully, not all want or abuse that privledge, and most women aren't that malicious.


Most people aren't malicious people 100% of the time, but most people are capable of being malicious at some time.  And it only has to happen once to completely fark over another persons entire life.
 
2014-07-09 11:40:50 PM  
Wow.  When I was in college, we went to class, drank and farked.

You guys are over-thinking this thing.
 
2014-07-09 11:44:25 PM  

BigGrnEggGriller: Wow.  When I was in college, we went to class, drank and farked.

You guys are over-thinking this thing.


Now, now. Without the outrage how can money be made?
 
2014-07-09 11:47:45 PM  

zzrhardy: sinisterben: Thankfully, not all want or abuse that privledge, and most women aren't that malicious.

Most people aren't malicious people 100% of the time, but most people are capable of being malicious at some time.  And it only has to happen once to completely fark over another persons entire life.


I agree, maybe it's just my liberal oasis in a red state privilege coming out, but I am surrounded by egalitarians, so it's not a worry I have.

Funny thing: I work at a college.
//getting a kick...
 
2014-07-09 11:50:02 PM  

Loren: However, I have seen multiple people express an opinion close to it:


Thank you. Thank you for showing up.

I get the impression that a lot of the boys that I've been debating have been jacking themselves off with regards to this issue. Case in point:
 

Ishkur: Theaetetus: I think Ishkur is saying that if a man is bad at sex...


The issue is really about trust and whether I as a man should trust this person that I'm sleeping with.

It really does kick the ball back to men with regards to who makes the decision about sex and when to engage it. If you don't trust the person you are with then don't do it.

But this undermines a certain "live by the moment" spirit that may have produced "us" as a society. It may have created the current (and previous) spawn that walk the earth.

Now, that being said -I'm going to suggest to everyone in general not to have sex with people that you don't trust. But how many of us were produced from a single nights passion spawned truly from an alcoholic moment? The times they are a changing.
 
2014-07-10 12:27:13 AM  
How about they just start giving out chastity belts at freshman orientation, except instead of keys, the belts are equipped with a breathalyzer. Kind of like the ones they can put in cars, but both parties must blow into it and register less than a .08 (or whatever the limit is) to unlock.

As far as the consent thing goes, that's a little hairier. I mean, I didn't realize until this thread that if someone says "yes" in a certain way it actually means no, so clearly I'm a rape apologist. There should be clear, unambiguous conversation - or better yet, a document that is available every time sexual activity becomes a possibility. Maybe something like when you sign a lease, except instead of initialing under the line about pets and after the paragraph about the security deposit, you have a list of sexual activities and a definite affirmative before you can proceed. Maybe they could make an app, and after every question, there's a fingerprint scan. "May I kiss you?" *scan* "May I remove your underwear and/or brassiere? (check all that apply)" "May I use my tongue to stimulate your anal sphincter?"

Or maybe just treat every sexual encounter like you're a stylist and someone's asking you to cut off 4 feet of hair. "Are you sure that's what you want? Are you positive? Let me bring my coworker over here, tell him this is what you really want. No, I trust your decision, it's just sometimes people think they want something, but when they see themselves in the mirror, it didn't turn out quite how they thought it would, and then I get yelled at."

I mean, obviously this is over the top, but I think it's a lot to expect teenagers and young adults to have meaningful, frank conversations about their sexual desires when most of them A) haven't even had proper sexual education other than "don't touch or Jesus will cry" and B) are tasting relative freedom for the first time. And I do get a little snarky about the rape issue because while I think it's shiatty and sad, it's hard to really empathize because it's something I'll never have to worry about.

Theaetetus: I think your logic just excused drunk driving on a "boys will be boys" defense.


Heh. The majority of this thread has already excused drunk driving on the basis that consuming alcohol makes you not responsible for your actions.
 
2014-07-10 02:53:09 AM  

JackieRabbit: I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?


Rape statistics for the US:

upload.wikimedia.org

Not sure why the chart stops at 2003.

I'd say it has something to do with rape being redefined to be just about all interaction between men and women. That's why we've got all this "rape-culture" and "rape continuum" nonsense. Even inviting a woman up for a cup of coffee is "creepy" these days. The chart above shows it's not so much a rape epidemic as it is rape hysteria. Make it trivial to get someone punished for rape or "sexual misconduct", and you end up with shiat like this:

All three young men claimed the encounters were consensual - but the women asserted otherwise. In each case, campus officials found the men responsible for sexual assault and expelled or suspended them.
But all three are pushing back, suing the schools on charges that their rights to a fair hearing were violated.

Just for the record; rape is a horrible crime. It's so awful that not only is it used as a weapon of war, it's illegal to use as a weapon of war. It should be taken seriously and those accused of it deserve a fair trail.
 
2014-07-10 03:07:37 AM  

Ishkur: See, here's where you and MRAs fail so hard: You think it's easier to get the women to change, and you're actively lobbying for that on the Internet. But I think it's much easier to just change yourselves.


I have you tagged as "smart +1" ...but not on this topic. It's almost as if everything you know about MRAs came from that moronic SNL skit.

 Worried about false rape accusations? Don't give her any reasons to falsely accuse you of rape. A satisfying night of excellent sex is the best safeguard against morning after awkwardness (in fact, if anything, the morning after should be more sex). If you're not willing to put in the time and effort to get her there, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Being great in bed won't protect you from a vindictive sociopath. No, most women aren't vindictive sociopaths, just like most men aren't patriarchal rapists.
 
2014-07-10 03:29:44 AM  

sinisterben: Ivan the Tolerable: JesusJuice: Nah, she was just pissed that I didn't want a relationship with her and figured that because she thought the sex meant something and I didn't it meant I'd raped her.

Thats actually what we were taught 'rape' was in college. They considered that any consent done under false pretenses meant the consent wasn't fully informed and therefore rape, even if the person was willing at the time.

/So yes, by their rules; Saying you will call her later, and then not doing it, constituted prosecutable rape.
//Yes, that complaint actually did happen, and yes, the university did call in the police to perform an arrest.
///No, the police wouldn't have any of that nonsense.

MRA! You should have been a better lover!

//Does this reposnse make sense to anyone?


Yes. It means you have been getting trolled.
 
2014-07-10 04:19:45 AM  
 
2014-07-10 05:17:18 AM  

sinisterben: Wait so now women have to create a system before it can be anything but patriarchy?


Yes. That's the whole point. Now you're starting to get it.
 
2014-07-10 08:08:59 AM  

At the risk of feeding a troll...: sinisterben: Ivan the Tolerable: JesusJuice: Nah, she was just pissed that I didn't want a relationship with her and figured that because she thought the sex meant something and I didn't it meant I'd raped her.

Thats actually what we were taught 'rape' was in college. They considered that any consent done under false pretenses meant the consent wasn't fully informed and therefore rape, even if the person was willing at the time.

/So yes, by their rules; Saying you will call her later, and then not doing it, constituted prosecutable rape.
//Yes, that complaint actually did happen, and yes, the university did call in the police to perform an arrest.
///No, the police wouldn't have any of that nonsense.

MRA! You should have been a better lover!

//Does this reposnse make sense to anyone?

Yes. It means you have been getting trolled.


I would probably agree with you if I had never been on tumblr or Twitter, but alas, here we are.
 
2014-07-10 08:58:00 AM  

Uncle Tractor: JackieRabbit: I haven't found much concrete about this phenomenon, but the ways that colleges are dealing with it or planning to deal with it pretty much tells the tale: they want to limit or ban alcohol from on-campus functions. This suggests to me me that it is the same-old-same-old: the kiddies get drunk, the girl farks a guy or guys (with some persuasion or not), she either is or fears being slut-shamed and cries rape. Or is something else going on?

Rape statistics for the US:

Not sure why the chart stops at 2003.

I'd say it has something to do with rape being redefined to be just about all interaction between men and women. That's why we've got all this "rape-culture" and "rape continuum" nonsense. Even inviting a woman up for a cup of coffee is "creepy" these days. The chart above shows it's not so much a rape epidemic as it is rape hysteria. Make it trivial to get someone punished for rape or "sexual misconduct", and you end up with shiat like this:

All three young men claimed the encounters were consensual - but the women asserted otherwise. In each case, campus officials found the men responsible for sexual assault and expelled or suspended them.
But all three are pushing back, suing the schools on charges that their rights to a fair hearing were violated.

Just for the record; rape is a horrible crime. It's so awful that not only is it used as a weapon of war, it's illegal to use as a weapon of war. It should be taken seriously and those accused of it deserve a fair trail.


I think you will find exactly what UT is saying here about a lot of these issues: if you dig even the slightest bit deeper, you don't find data that leads to the conclusions that are found by these folks. Or you find some really messed up studies that are obvious witch hunts. They have the conclusion first and find what they want to support it.
 
2014-07-10 09:28:53 AM  

brimed03: fireclown: gopher321: Because People in power are Stupid: Will the nonstop rape carnival never end?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 547x452]

I'm sure the actual raping going on outweighs a few media-hyped false reports.

It's still a serious, although separate problem.  The entire subject is serious, and has consequences.  False accusations should be dealt with harshly.

On to the main point:  Ladies: do not go to a college administrator if you are raped.  Go to the police.

As a former college administrator: THIS.

And if the local town cops try to point you back towards campus, go elsewhere. State police, DA, hire an attorney. But most police are getting better about handling this properly.

It's not like I was ever instructed to cover anything up, btw. But the response is too incoherent and unpredictable at the level of any individual school for me to give any other advice. What amounts to cover-ups is still a huge problem.

Kudos to the Obama administration for grappling with the issue. It needs federal leadership. Few schools are willing to implement proper and public reporting unless every other school does it too, because most parents are stupid enough to think that the school not reporting it must not have a problem with it. So they need someone to force them to all do it together.


Crikey.  I like to post my friendly advice in these threads (A friend of mine had her case handled poorly by a college administration), but I've never had an actual administrator agree with me.

I must admit I'm a little unsettled.
 
2014-07-10 09:32:50 AM  

tlars699: Wrong, whomever you are, call 911, go to the Hospital ER, and request a rape kit first. Call your trusted friend/parental unit. Go to the Police.


I had been assuming that the police would do a rape kit as part of the process.  I am revolted at the thought that I might be wrong on that.  I do agree with tiars though.  Get evidence collected, then go to the police. But I think we are in agreement about not going to a college administrator.

/the world just keeps on making me angrier.
 
2014-07-10 09:38:48 AM  

sinisterben: Ishkur: sinisterben: Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.

Because you want to dispute the existence of patriarchy. I pointed out where it exists, and you decided to ignore everything but politics. Politics wasn't my argument.

Wow, you know, I have the ability fo define monarchy, or oligarghy, or theocracy, and I can even define ways to falsify those definitions. But you, you get to assert a fact, and I have to just accept it. Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind? Of course not, because, patriarchy.


Don't be daft.
Who has more political power in the UK, the queen or the prime minister?
What is the ratio of male to female prime ministers?
What is the ratio of men to women in the UK Parliament?
 
2014-07-10 09:42:45 AM  

fiddlehead: sinisterben: Ishkur: sinisterben: Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.

Because you want to dispute the existence of patriarchy. I pointed out where it exists, and you decided to ignore everything but politics. Politics wasn't my argument.

Wow, you know, I have the ability fo define monarchy, or oligarghy, or theocracy, and I can even define ways to falsify those definitions. But you, you get to assert a fact, and I have to just accept it. Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind? Of course not, because, patriarchy.

Don't be daft.
Who has more political power in the UK, the queen or the prime minister?
What is the ratio of male to female prime ministers?
What is the ratio of men to women in the UK Parliament?


I'm sorry. I guess we need to elect more stupid women to put next to stupid men to make other stupid women happy that they are represented by stupid people of both genders.

If you think the big problem with politics is "not enough women", you have a lot to learn.
 
2014-07-10 10:09:50 AM  

zzrhardy: A strange game
The only winning move is not to play.


This is a conclusion reached after much playing with yourself?
 
2014-07-10 10:44:37 AM  

fiddlehead: sinisterben: Ishkur: sinisterben: Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.

Because you want to dispute the existence of patriarchy. I pointed out where it exists, and you decided to ignore everything but politics. Politics wasn't my argument.

Wow, you know, I have the ability fo define monarchy, or oligarghy, or theocracy, and I can even define ways to falsify those definitions. But you, you get to assert a fact, and I have to just accept it. Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind? Of course not, because, patriarchy.

Don't be daft.
Who has more political power in the UK, the queen or the prime minister?
What is the ratio of male to female prime ministers?
What is the ratio of men to women in the UK Parliament?


It's never enough is it? Female Head of State... patriarchy. This patriarchy is literally the worst protected power system ever. It doesn't seem very effective at protecting its power base.

Why not just an unjust world?
 
2014-07-10 11:57:23 AM  
So,  vote Hillary 2016??
 
2014-07-10 12:32:24 PM  
Forget it sinisterben, it's Femtardtown.
 
2014-07-10 12:40:38 PM  

sinisterben: fiddlehead: sinisterben: Ishkur: sinisterben: Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.

Because you want to dispute the existence of patriarchy. I pointed out where it exists, and you decided to ignore everything but politics. Politics wasn't my argument.

Wow, you know, I have the ability fo define monarchy, or oligarghy, or theocracy, and I can even define ways to falsify those definitions. But you, you get to assert a fact, and I have to just accept it. Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind? Of course not, because, patriarchy.

Don't be daft.
Who has more political power in the UK, the queen or the prime minister?
What is the ratio of male to female prime ministers?
What is the ratio of men to women in the UK Parliament?

It's never enough is it? Female Head of State... patriarchy. This patriarchy is literally the worst protected power system ever. It doesn't seem very effective at protecting its power base.

Why not just an unjust world?


Here, have a heaping helping of crazy: I Blame The Patriarchy
 
2014-07-10 01:01:19 PM  

Repo Man: sinisterben: fiddlehead: sinisterben: Ishkur: sinisterben: Why? Last I checked we were discussing patriarchy, which again you assert followed by a lot of hand waving and name calling. Then we even have to discount democracy of all things? Yep, I'm adorable.

Because you want to dispute the existence of patriarchy. I pointed out where it exists, and you decided to ignore everything but politics. Politics wasn't my argument.

Wow, you know, I have the ability fo define monarchy, or oligarghy, or theocracy, and I can even define ways to falsify those definitions. But you, you get to assert a fact, and I have to just accept it. Does England have a queen? Are they a matriarchy in your mind? Of course not, because, patriarchy.

Don't be daft.
Who has more political power in the UK, the queen or the prime minister?
What is the ratio of male to female prime ministers?
What is the ratio of men to women in the UK Parliament?

It's never enough is it? Female Head of State... patriarchy. This patriarchy is literally the worst protected power system ever. It doesn't seem very effective at protecting its power base.

Why not just an unjust world?

Here, have a heaping helping of crazy: I Blame The Patriarchy


I... this is what I am talking about. It makes no damn sense!
 
2014-07-10 01:17:32 PM  

Ishkur: That's an odd thing to ask. It's like saying "does being hot hurt the sun?"


Patriarchy does hurt men, though. By enforcing gender roles and devaluing the set of attributes it deems "feminine" (e.g. open emotional expression, nurturing, sensitivity, certain aesthetic appreciations, etc.), it circumscribes those behaviors in men. That makes it very difficult for males to express and embrace these parts of themselves, and because there's always a little yin in every yang, all men have those.

That's why it's now generally OK for girls to be tomboys (as long as they aren't too butch), but boys still get excoriated for "girly" things: The females are imitating the "superior" role, the males the "inferior". So even though girls seem on the surface to be advantaged by this system, it's still rooted in devaluing the feminine.
 
2014-07-10 01:20:26 PM  

sinisterben: It's never enough is it? Female Head of State... patriarchy. This patriarchy is literally the worst protected power system ever. It doesn't seem very effective at protecting its power base.


It's very effective. It has a 90% incumbency rate and right now it's doing a good job convincing the public that the opposite sex is full of manipulative liars who can't be trusted.
 
2014-07-10 01:25:45 PM  

Inchoate: Patriarchy does hurt men


Patriarchy is the rule of men. Men, in whatever system or culture, always seek hierarchy, and they will compete for position. You can't really say a system hurts a class when that class defines and rules the system, even when that class turns on itself and jockeys for stewardship.
 
2014-07-10 01:36:26 PM  

sinisterben: Wait so now women have to create a system before it can be anything but patriarchy? You are proving my point here, you aren't defining anything meaningful.


Men inherit the throne preferentially over women. Elizabeth II is only the queen because she had no brothers. How is that not patriarchal?

sinisterben: It's never enough is it? Female Head of State... patriarchy. This patriarchy is literally the worst protected power system ever. It doesn't seem very effective at protecting its power base.

Why not just an unjust world?


A woman is permitted some power in a system whose actual majority power is wielded by men. Your point being?
 
2014-07-10 01:44:56 PM  

Inchoate: sinisterben: Wait so now women have to create a system before it can be anything but patriarchy? You are proving my point here, you aren't defining anything meaningful.

Men inherit the throne preferentially over women. Elizabeth II is only the queen because she had no brothers. How is that not patriarchal?

sinisterben: It's never enough is it? Female Head of State... patriarchy. This patriarchy is literally the worst protected power system ever. It doesn't seem very effective at protecting its power base.

Why not just an unjust world?

A woman is permitted some power in a system whose actual majority power is wielded by men. Your point being?


See this is just silly. Are we seriously saying the only way for this patriarchy to end is to put women in charge? You aren't seeking equality, so stop claiming you are.
 
2014-07-10 01:50:57 PM  
The Patriarchy as described in this thread sounds as menacing and impossible to dethrone as the oxygen we breathe.
 
2014-07-10 01:55:42 PM  

sinisterben: Are we seriously saying the only way for this patriarchy to end is to put women in charge?


You can't end patriarchy and for civilization's sake you probably shouldn't.

Egalitarian systems existed pre-Agriculture so patriarchy is a function of social organization, not evolution. Unfortunately, there is no way to restore those systems without wiping out all hierarchies altogether and I wouldn't recommend it anyway. The next best idea is keep the patriarchal institutions but give women special rights and status and stop worrying about it. Failing that, a 50/50 split in leadership is preferable.

As it is right now, complaining that women have it better than men is like white people complaining that there's no NAACP for caucasions. Get over yourself.
 
2014-07-10 01:56:26 PM  
Yes the patriarchy that allows leaders to be voted into office and where women have equal rights to run for that office, must instead place women into office because... otherwise patriarchy.
 
2014-07-10 02:00:53 PM  

Fano: The Patriarchy as described in this thread sounds as menacing and impossible to dethrone as the oxygen we breathe.


It's not necessarily a bad thing, but in order to get there we must first get the MRAs to actually acknowledge it as a thing.
 
2014-07-10 02:02:14 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Are we seriously saying the only way for this patriarchy to end is to put women in charge?

You can't end patriarchy and for civilization's sake you probably shouldn't.

Egalitarian systems existed pre-Agriculture so patriarchy is a function of social organization, not evolution. Unfortunately, there is no way to restore those systems without wiping out all hierarchies altogether and I wouldn't recommend it anyway. The next best idea is keep the patriarchal institutions but give women special rights and status and stop worrying about it. Failing that, a 50/50 split in leadership is preferable.

As it is right now, complaining that women have it better than men is like white people complaining that there's no NAACP for caucasions. Get over yourself.


I am not sure if I should just say thank you for proving my point or if you are trying to troll. Either way, thanks.
 
2014-07-10 02:13:11 PM  

sinisterben: Yes the patriarchy that allows leaders to be voted into office


We've been over this before: Is this the only part of patriarchy you recognize?

I'm seeing this type of argument over and over again lately, especially among Creationists. I call it the "99 = 0" fallacy. That because something isn't 100% absolutely true, therefore it is completely false. I am looking at all of civilization, analyzing every hierarchical system, organizational pact and family geneology table, from business to sports, and assessing it as a driving force of patriarchal institutions, and you want to say that there's no such thing because women can vote and run for office.

Seriously, get some perspective.
 
2014-07-10 02:16:45 PM  

sinisterben: I am not sure if I should just say thank you for proving my point or if you are trying to troll.


I never troll. And if your point is that patriarchy doesn't exist, it was discredited a long time ago.
 
2014-07-10 02:21:31 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: I am not sure if I should just say thank you for proving my point or if you are trying to troll.

I never troll. And if your point is that patriarchy doesn't exist, it was discredited a long time ago.


When? Would that be when you assert it just is, and never bothered with that whole data thing?
 
2014-07-10 02:23:38 PM  
Or wait. Was it when declared democracy doesn't work?
 
2014-07-10 02:35:37 PM  

sinisterben: Or wait. Was it when declared democracy doesn't work?


You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship! A self perpetuating phallocracy in which the feminin-- help help I' m being repressed! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
 
2014-07-10 02:38:53 PM  
Here let me lay out all my cards, I bet it would be enough for 50% women in leadership roles for you, but rather women THAT AGREE with you in those roles. Because I assure you that you will say a bunch of Condoleezzas and Palins wouldn't count, would they?
 
2014-07-10 02:39:31 PM  

sinisterben: When? Would that be when you assert it just is, and never bothered with that whole data thing?


Do you seriously think all of history is a lie?
 
2014-07-10 02:45:37 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: When? Would that be when you assert it just is, and never bothered with that whole data thing?

Do you seriously think all of history is a lie?


This is an assertion not data, also I was unaware we were living in all of history. I try to focus policies around what is currently happening. YMMV.
 
2014-07-10 02:46:16 PM  

sinisterben: Here let me lay out all my cards, I bet it would be enough for 50% women in leadership roles for you, but rather women THAT AGREE with you in those roles. Because I assure you that you will say a bunch of Condoleezzas and Palins wouldn't count, would they?


Well, not Palin because she's intellectually unqualified, but if politics was 50% Thatchers, Condoleezas and Nikki Haleys, even though they're Republicans I wouldn't care. Women have the right to their views and campaign on those views even if I disagree with them. But irrespective to all that, can you stop looking at politics for just a second and try to see the bigger picture?
 
2014-07-10 02:55:49 PM  

sinisterben: This is an assertion not data


Actually, it's a question, because my argument is so obvious and so factual that I'm actually shocked that you would request data on it. Are you seriously that dense? Do you really need proof that men have created and controlled every hierarchical institution for the past 10,000 years? You actually need data on that (even when I have already sufficiently done so earlier in the thread)? I think a more interesting answer is why you DON'T think there is a patriarchy.

sinisterben: also I was unaware we were living in all of history. I try to focus policies around what is currently happening. YMMV.


We are, and always will be, living all of history. We are the effects of innumerable causes, and studying those causes is how we come to a better understanding. To not acknowledge this makes you not only obstinately blind, but egregiously stupid. You cannot possibly focus on what is currently happening without analyzing where it came from and how it came to be.
 
2014-07-10 02:57:26 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Here let me lay out all my cards, I bet it would be enough for 50% women in leadership roles for you, but rather women THAT AGREE with you in those roles. Because I assure you that you will say a bunch of Condoleezzas and Palins wouldn't count, would they?

Well, not Palin because she's intellectually unqualified, but if politics was 50% Thatchers, Condoleezas and Nikki Haleys, even though they're Republicans I wouldn't care. Women have the right to their views and campaign on those views even if I disagree with them. But irrespective to all that, can you stop looking at politics for just a second and try to see the bigger picture?


No, I won't stop paying attention to the policies of an obviously political movement. Also, how other than government intervention are you planning on making these special rights or enforced balance? You want this discussion to not pay attention to what you are doing, and what you are saying, because the obvious fact is they don't evidence what you want to paint yourselves as doing. If you don't want to be political then stop being so.

Seriously, I am probably more on your team than you could comprehend, because your identify is so wrapped up in this that you can't see the forest for the trees.
 
2014-07-10 03:05:37 PM  

sinisterben: No, I won't stop paying attention to the policies of an obviously political movement


No. It's not.

That is why you're wrong.

sinisterben: Also, how other than government intervention are you planning on making these special rights or enforced balance?


Actually, government is not necessary most of the time. The Overton window will shift gradually as new generations accept different standards and we die off (because older generations are never wholly converted to new ideas).
 
2014-07-10 03:08:04 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: I am not sure if I should just say thank you for proving my point or if you are trying to troll.

I never troll. And if your point is that patriarchy doesn't exist, it was discredited a long time ago.


You and I don't really agree on the implications of patriarchy, but at least you clearly understand that it exists. Which is nice.
 
2014-07-10 03:12:45 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: No, I won't stop paying attention to the policies of an obviously political movement

No. It's not.

That is why you're wrong.

sinisterben: Also, how other than government intervention are you planning on making these special rights or enforced balance?

Actually, government is not necessary most of the time. The Overton window will shift gradually as new generations accept different standards and we die off (because older generations are never wholly converted to new ideas).


I'll just let this post lie, because again you make my point. You don't answer any questions honestly, you won't admit to your goals, and you will lie when faced with simple facts.
 
2014-07-10 03:14:24 PM  

Inchoate: Ishkur: sinisterben: I am not sure if I should just say thank you for proving my point or if you are trying to troll.

I never troll. And if your point is that patriarchy doesn't exist, it was discredited a long time ago.

You and I don't really agree on the implications of patriarchy, but at least you clearly understand that it exists. Which is nice.


The patriarchy theory is indistinguishable from a religious belief. I'm sorry, it's true.
 
2014-07-10 03:29:25 PM  

sinisterben: The patriarchy theory is indistinguishable from a religious belief.


Except patriarchy has demonstrable evidence, whereas a belief in a deity does not.
 
2014-07-10 03:30:15 PM  

sinisterben: I'll just let this post lie, because again you make my point.


Your point that patriarchy doesn't exist?

Tell me: Do you plan on changing your name when you get married?
 
2014-07-10 03:32:58 PM  

Ishkur: Egalitarian systems existed pre-Agriculture


You know, these hunter-gatherer tribes still exist in places. Maybe you would be happier if you lived amongst them.

Bring them cheetos and become their god.
 
2014-07-10 03:33:39 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: The patriarchy theory is indistinguishable from a religious belief.

Except patriarchy has demonstrable evidence, whereas a belief in a deity does not.


That's not the overarching patriarchy you are discussing, this is like the Christian claiming god is love. You aren't talking about what you actually believe, you are talking about something much different and greatly diminished from the original claims.
 
2014-07-10 03:34:27 PM  

sinisterben: That's not the overarching patriarchy you are discussing, this is like the Christian claiming god is love. You aren't talking about what you actually believe, you are talking about something much different and greatly diminished from the original claims.


damn son, perhaps you should just quit while you still have some chips left
 
2014-07-10 03:37:26 PM  

Ishkur: Your point that patriarchy doesn't exist?


It's a convenient fabrication in order to create an absurd argument about 'the way things out to be'.
 
2014-07-10 03:37:31 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: I'll just let this post lie, because again you make my point.

Your point that patriarchy doesn't exist?

Tell me: Do you plan on changing your name when you get married?


Does it count if I hyphenate you judgmental ass?
 
2014-07-10 03:39:25 PM  

Inchoate: sinisterben: That's not the overarching patriarchy you are discussing, this is like the Christian claiming god is love. You aren't talking about what you actually believe, you are talking about something much different and greatly diminished from the original claims.

damn son, perhaps you should just quit while you still have some chips left


Yes, I see your refutation of my obviously stupid point. Seriously. Religion.
 
2014-07-10 03:44:17 PM  
Assertion: dodo birds opress me.
Counter: seriously?
Assertion: See this is a dodo bird on Wikipedia.
 
2014-07-10 03:51:43 PM  
I bet a fair amount of people in this thread wear trilbys.
 
2014-07-10 04:10:31 PM  

sinisterben: That's not the overarching patriarchy you are discussing


I'm challenging your assertion that patriarchy doesn't exist. There is overwhelming demonstrable evidence that it does, and has for the past 10,000 years.
 
2014-07-10 04:11:47 PM  

sinisterben: Does it count if I hyphenate you judgmental ass?


The point is you've never had to think about it, have you? Do you think you should discuss it with your spouse first?
 
2014-07-10 04:23:13 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Does it count if I hyphenate you judgmental ass?

The point is you've never had to think about it, have you? Do you think you should discuss it with your spouse first?


You know nothing about me or my wife, you presumptuous fool. Also, I like that no matter how that was answered I actually couldn't have said anything to your satisfaction.

Now, point to the data of the existing patriarchy that opresses women to this day. Alllll this data exists but all you can manage is shouting about it being obvious.

I mean look at the eye... how is that not evidence of a creator? Right?
 
2014-07-10 04:27:59 PM  

Ishkur: There is overwhelming demonstrable evidence that it does, and has for the past 10,000 years.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-07-10 04:30:26 PM  

Saborlas: I bet a fair amount of people in this thread wear trilbys.


What's wrong with a trilby?

img.fark.net
 
2014-07-10 04:33:35 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Saborlas: I bet a fair amount of people in this thread wear trilbys.

What's wrong with a trilby?


Well, I have been made aware that hat styles and poor shaving techniques create a pocket dimension where nothing has to be explained to anyone.
 
2014-07-10 04:33:48 PM  

sinisterben: You know nothing about me or my wife,


That's irrelevant. But thank you for conceding the argument.
 
2014-07-10 04:38:10 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: You know nothing about me or my wife,

That's irrelevant. But thank you for conceding the argument.


Uhh, you're welcome?
 
2014-07-10 05:11:33 PM  
So, I guess I'll just claim I win on that whole data issue then. Not a bad day.
 
2014-07-10 05:20:57 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: Does it count if I hyphenate you judgmental ass?

The point is you've never had to think about it, have you? Do you think you should discuss it with your spouse first?


I've been married for 7 years. I've never even brought up the idea of changing names to my wife. Not really trying to prove a point here, I just realized how odd it is that it's never come up.
 
2014-07-10 05:28:51 PM  

sinisterben: So, I guess I'll just claim I win on that whole data issue then. Not a bad day.


Jesus christ, do you need data on the sun being in the sky, too?

upload.wikimedia.org

i.imgur.com

thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com

cdn.theatlantic.com

www.npr.org
 
2014-07-10 05:45:38 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: So, I guess I'll just claim I win on that whole data issue then. Not a bad day.

Jesus christ, do you need data on the sun being in the sky, too?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x531]


Men take more risks in general than women and entering politics is a risky career choice.

[i.imgur.com image 850x637]

It doesn't matter the gender that someone is quoting -it matters if they have something significant to say

[thumbnails-visually.netdna-ssl.com image 603x1500]
 Men take more risks in general than women and becoming a CEO is a risky career choice. 

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 850x510]

Women entering the sciences actually have a leg up on men because of equal opportunity hiring quotas.

[www.npr.org image 624x390]

Men in a family don't normally take years out of their careers to raise children.
 
2014-07-10 05:49:46 PM  
Do women have a choice of careers in your world? Are they allowed to vote and represent people in government? Are they choosing the exact same lifetime goals as men?

Do we have to force these choices so you feel better about those numbers?

Are you aware more women than men are graduating from college and on average they are making more than their counterparts? How is this possible in your freaking patriarchy?

Are you aware that just because the sexes aren't equally represented that it isn't evidence of your overarching patriarchy?

You are just saying there isn't equal outcome in places you want to point out, therefore patriarchy. But will you accept evidence of other imbalances towards women as evidence of matriarchy? I bet not.
 
2014-07-10 05:54:54 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Men take more risks


Oh, so you've finally admitted that patriarchy does in fact exist and now you want to move on to justify its continued existence?
 
2014-07-10 05:58:20 PM  
You two really are uniquely incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.
 
2014-07-10 06:06:21 PM  
Let's discuss anecdotes since you seem more interested in lived experience than facts.

I work in a job for much less than I could earn elsewhere, however I am also afforded a lot more flexibility and time off tp deal with family needs. My wife? She works much harder and more hours in an inflexible job to support our family. Not many families work that way. More than ever for sure but still not in a completely balanced score.

So why should we expect to see this equality in numbers when the situation in the world doesn't reflect a world which would have those equal numbers?

No freaking patriarchy needed, just an unjust world where PEOPLE have many options and face many hardships.
 
2014-07-10 06:08:31 PM  

Ishkur: Oh, so you've finally admitted that patriarchy does in fact exist and now you want to move on to justify its continued existence?



You are kinda like a broken record.

images.rapgenius.com

A true patriarchy is a form of government and is not some worldwide conspiracy.

We in the US live in a Democracy not a patriarchy.
 
2014-07-10 06:13:58 PM  

Inchoate: You two really are uniquely incapable of seeing the forest for the trees.


Sure I mean a claim that 50% of the population is in collusion to hold the other 50% down certainly isn't extraordinary. Nah, that's like every day simple stuff, like the sky is blue, or grass is green.
 
2014-07-10 06:14:36 PM  

sinisterben: You are just saying there isn't equal outcome in places you want to point out, therefore patriarchy.


Patriarchy means rule by men. That's what I showed you: Men overwhelmingly in control of the highest and most powerful positions in politics, economics, media and science. Do a GIS for gender gap and you can find many, many more. We can argue the hows and whys later, but for now let's just focus on this: Does it exist? As I have just demonstrated, it does.

sinisterben: But will you accept evidence of other imbalances towards women as evidence of matriarchy?


Give me an example of a matriarchal social institution -- created by women, controlled and serviced by women, with certain positions and edicts that strictly forbid men, and overall place men as having lesser stature.

There isn't one. Men have dominated society for so long, even our languages are male-centric (think of that the next time you use words like mankind, chairman, salesman, businessman or any job title with -man as a suffix, "all men are created equal", etc... we only started recognizing this within the last generation and have made some strides to eliminate gender bias in language).
 
2014-07-10 06:15:39 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Ishkur: Oh, so you've finally admitted that patriarchy does in fact exist and now you want to move on to justify its continued existence?


You are kinda like a broken record.

A true patriarchy is a form of government and is not some worldwide conspiracy.

We in the US live in a Democracy not a patriarchy.


Well he did like to a Wikipedia entry about Roman patriarchal families... that was pretty similar to the world wide collusion of men against women everywhere.
 
2014-07-10 06:21:24 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: You are just saying there isn't equal outcome in places you want to point out, therefore patriarchy.

Patriarchy means rule by men. That's what I showed you: Men overwhelmingly in control of the highest and most powerful positions in politics, economics, media and science. Do a GIS for gender gap and you can find many, many more. We can argue the hows and whys later, but for now let's just focus on this: Does it exist? As I have just demonstrated, it does.

sinisterben: But will you accept evidence of other imbalances towards women as evidence of matriarchy?

Give me an example of a matriarchal social institution -- created by women, controlled and serviced by women, with certain positions and edicts that strictly forbid men, and overall place men as having lesser stature.

There isn't one. Men have dominated society for so long, even our languages are male-centric (think of that the next time you use words like mankind, chairman, salesman, businessman or any job title with -man as a suffix, "all men are created equal", etc... we only started recognizing this within the last generation and have made some strides to eliminate gender bias in language).


Patriarchy is a form of government dude. Not a freaking world wide Alex Jones, fluoride in the drinking water conspiracy which somehow doesn't manage to do anything you claim it does.

Show me how the patriarchy isn't just a religion painted over an unjust universe.
 
2014-07-10 06:21:33 PM  

sinisterben: Well he did like to a Wikipedia entry about Roman patriarchal families... that was pretty similar to the world wide collusion of men against women everywhere.


I'm pretty sure he's an alt of Theaetetus. They have the same writing style, the same views and when they interacted on this thread it was used as a (*shudder*) vehicle to share lovemaking tips.
 
2014-07-10 06:24:07 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: A true patriarchy is a form of government and is not some worldwide conspiracy.


It's neither. It's simply a description of rule.
 
2014-07-10 06:25:45 PM  
Also, I don't agree to answer your false dichotomy of either men make a system or women do. See, I actually believe we all work together to affect change, not point the finger at some other group and cry opression. Also, democracy, we have one, you could maybe try working with that before blowing up the whole god damn planet in order to remake it as you think it should be.
 
2014-07-10 06:26:50 PM  

Ishkur: It's neither. It's simply a description of rule.


I think you mean a hegemonic phallocracy.
 
2014-07-10 06:27:42 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: sinisterben: Well he did like to a Wikipedia entry about Roman patriarchal families... that was pretty similar to the world wide collusion of men against women everywhere.

I'm pretty sure he's an alt of Theaetetus. They have the same writing style, the same views and when they interacted on this thread it was used as a (*shudder*) vehicle to share lovemaking tips.


I was wondering about that part. Heck, with allies like them I almost don't need to discuss anything, just let them talk about utopia, 1984/Animal Farm style.
 
2014-07-10 06:31:36 PM  

Ishkur: Because People in power are Stupid: Men take more risks

Oh, so you've finally admitted that patriarchy does in fact exist and now you want to move on to justify its continued existence?


imgs.xkcd.com
 
2014-07-10 06:35:28 PM  

sinisterben: I don't agree to answer your false dichotomy of either men make a system or women do.


I never once asserted it has to be either-or. Things were egalitarian pre-Agriculture so we know that it is not a function of evolution but of social organization. We can do that again.
 
2014-07-10 06:36:09 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: I'm pretty sure he's an alt of Theaetetus. They have the same writing style, the same views and when they interacted on this thread it was used as a (*shudder*) vehicle to share lovemaking tips.


lol

seriously?

Have you actually spent any time reading Fark? Other than "intelligence and confidence in their opinions" those two aren't especially similar.
 
2014-07-10 06:45:22 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: I don't agree to answer your false dichotomy of either men make a system or women do.

I never once asserted it has to be either-or. Things were egalitarian pre-Agriculture so we know that it is not a function of evolution but of social organization. We can do that again.


I like every post you respond to is snipped down to only the part you want to acknowledge. Even your data was a flippant posting of charts which honestly don't do anything to explain patriarchy, just show inequality of outcome. You don't acknowledge that I may be liberal enough to not fit into your grabsack of what your world view has to assume dissenters to your assertions are, you even manage to somehow bring my family into this as if you have any clue as to our household values.

You are a bully, nothing more, you want everyone to agree to your rules and righteousness. You are a poor representative of equality movements, and it's kinda sad because on other issues you seem pretty on the level.
 
2014-07-10 07:04:44 PM  

sinisterben: I like every post you respond to is snipped down to only the part you want to acknowledge.


I snip for brevity and ignore that which is irrelevant, which most of your posts mostly are. You have great difficulty staying on topic, and most of your posts are slippery slopes, 99 = 0, hasty generalizations and ad hominems. I don't respond to fallacies.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept. We live in a male-dominated society and always have. That doesn't automatically make it a bad thing, but it is important to recognize and acknowledge so we can go about fixing its injustices.

sinisterben: Even your data was a flippant posting of charts which honestly don't do anything to explain patriarchy,


Patriarchy means rule by men. That's it. That's all it describes. This is the third time I've said this to you. It means rule by men. What part of that don't you get? The data isn't trying to explain patriarchy and doesn't need to. It's only evidence of its existence. We haven't even gotten past the "does it exist" part of the argument because you're too stubborn to admit simple and obvious facts.

sinisterben: You don't acknowledge that I may be liberal enough


Why would I give a shiat what political stripe fills your drawers? Your views on other issues are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
 
2014-07-10 07:12:50 PM  
So, if rule is magically given to women all imbalances will be resolved right? Because the problem isn't people, it's men. Right? No more inequality no more injustices just happy bliss because... matriarchy.
 
2014-07-10 07:22:24 PM  

sinisterben: So, if rule is magically given to women all imbalances will be resolved right?


Holy shiat, no. When have I ever advocated that? You keep doing this. It's like you are incapable of understanding anyone's arguments, ever. Seriously, what is wrong with your reading comprehension?
 
2014-07-10 07:29:36 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: So, if rule is magically given to women all imbalances will be resolved right?

Holy shiat, no. When have I ever advocated that? You keep doing this. It's like you are incapable of understanding anyone's arguments, ever. Seriously, what is wrong with your reading comprehension?


Dude, if the crux of your argument is that the rule by men is the issue, one has to assume men are the problem. Because you are unwilling to acknowledge democracy and current rights people have, it can't be a people issue. Every point I raise is met with a question of "did women make it?" One has to assume your issue is with men and that the gender is important to your position. You are a presuppositionalist of government theory.
 
2014-07-10 07:33:09 PM  

Ishkur: sinisterben: I like every post you respond to is snipped down to only the part you want to acknowledge.

I snip for brevity and ignore that which is irrelevant, which most of your posts mostly are. You have great difficulty staying on topic, and most of your posts are slippery slopes, 99 = 0, hasty generalizations and ad hominems. I don't respond to fallacies.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept. We live in a male-dominated society and always have. That doesn't automatically make it a bad thing, but it is important to recognize and acknowledge so we can go about fixing its injustices.

sinisterben: Even your data was a flippant posting of charts which honestly don't do anything to explain patriarchy,

Patriarchy means rule by men. That's it. That's all it describes. This is the third time I've said this to you. It means rule by men. What part of that don't you get? The data isn't trying to explain patriarchy and doesn't need to. It's only evidence of its existence. We haven't even gotten past the "does it exist" part of the argument because you're too stubborn to admit simple and obvious facts.

sinisterben: You don't acknowledge that I may be liberal enough

Why would I give a shiat what political stripe fills your drawers? Your views on other issues are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


Ruled in what way?
Do women have to be completely excluded?
At what percentage does male leadership become oppressive?
At what percentage does it stop being a patriarchy?
Do you ever believe we could enter into a post-patriarchal society?
Can you imagine a system where men could be the decision makers by a higher percentage, but not be considered a patriarchy?
How do you feel about gender roles in egalitarian societies?
Do you think that there were negative/positive societal views attached to those gender roles?
Serious questions.
 
2014-07-10 07:46:29 PM  

sinisterben: Dude, if the crux of your argument is that the rule by men is the issue, one has to assume men are the problem.


Men are also the solution.

sinisterben: Because you are unwilling to acknowledge democracy and current rights people have


You think democracy isn't patriarchal? The same democracy that has, in its preamble, "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." and that "all men are created equal" -- this isn't a neutral use of the word. Jefferson meant just males, in a time when women couldn't vote and could neither give nor withhold consent. And it probably didn't occur to him that anyone in the future would think otherwise.

sinisterben: Every point I raise is met with a question of "did women make it?"


You haven't raised any points. You only think patriarchy doesn't exist, and you once pointed at the Queen as evidence. As if that solves everything. That's as stupid as claiming racism is dead because a black man is President.

sinisterben: You are a presuppositionalist of government theory.


I don't know what this means. What presuppositional axiom am I declaring and what's government theory?
 
2014-07-10 08:18:28 PM  

o_blah: Ruled in what way?
Do women have to be completely excluded?
At what percentage does male leadership become oppressive?
At what percentage does it stop being a patriarchy?
Do you ever believe we could enter into a post-patriarchal society?
Can you imagine a system where men could be the decision makers by a higher percentage, but not be considered a patriarchy?
How do you feel about gender roles in egalitarian societies?
Do you think that there were negative/positive societal views attached to those gender roles?
Serious questions.



These are good questions, and not just the usual JAQing off nonsense by all the MRAs in the thread. Unfortunately, the thread's about to close and I'm not up for writing an essay's worth of explanations for each question (I have other shiat to do today), but I will say this:

First of all, you're looking at it wrong. Understand that when humans organize themselves socially, the typical trend is for males to seek hierarchy and females to seek consensus. So asking things like how much or how little percentages define the type of rule are malformed questions. These are hierarchical (ie: patriarchal) institutions and they'll always be patriarchal institutions no matter how many or how little men are running things (although an all-female government would be an interesting experiment). It's analogous to replacing all the players on a baseball team and then calling it a different sport. Yes, you've changed the players, but they're still playing baseball. The hierarchical power structure has not changed.

A woman-dominated society would not have hierarchies in it because that's not the way women like to run things. I can't speculate whether a matriarchal system would be any better or worse since its never actually been implemented at any level of development, but the Neolithic Age was largely egalitarian, with more importance placed on communal living and tribe/clan unity, and less importance on family and dynastic lineage (so parentage was not an issue -- it didn't matter who the baby daddy was, since the whole tribe/village raised the child. Maury Pauvich would have been irrelevant in ancient times).

There's actually been an interesting trend that probably only became prominent within the last generation or so: Societies with the most free and empowered women have the most crumbling family infrastructure. Marriage is low, divorce is high, the newer generation seems not too eager to engage in lifetime monogamy. Because things like marriage/divorce are patriarchal institutions (ie: control exclusive sexual access to women), harkening back to the days when women were property of their husbands or fathers and marriage was for politics and power rather than love.

But with the empowerment of women over the last century, what has happened? They've aggressively pushed for social services emphasizing family and children -- essentially, modern versions of the communal unity they afforded when they were neolithic nomads, including child welfare programs, family planning, tax subsidies, counseling.... essentially, the State has replaced the Tribe.

That's not to say that women do not want a husband/men in their lives to help raise the child, but its curious to see the declining status of family values and the rise of state-assisted living ever since women were empowered....because that's the way they had it before. Funny to see, after 10,000 years, the basic social desires and values reassert itself after being silenced for so long, like a gyroscope returning to equilibrium.

And that's enough from me. I'm outty.
 
2014-07-10 08:32:14 PM  
I heard that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, but that is probably just underground agitprop.
 
2014-07-10 08:44:48 PM  

Inchoate: lol

seriously?

Have you actually spent any time reading Fark? Other than "intelligence and confidence in their opinions" those two aren't especially similar.


Just coming out of web to do a little anonymous brown nosing? Seriously?
 
2014-07-10 08:49:23 PM  

Ishkur: typical trend is for males to seek hierarchy and females to seek consensus.


Thank you Deborah Tannen for that highly contested theory.

And to be honest, it's not a "theory" in the scientific sense of the word -it's actually a hypothesis.
 
2014-07-10 08:52:42 PM  

Ishkur: o_blah: Ruled in what way?
Do women have to be completely excluded?
At what percentage does male leadership become oppressive?
At what percentage does it stop being a patriarchy?
Do you ever believe we could enter into a post-patriarchal society?
Can you imagine a system where men could be the decision makers by a higher percentage, but not be considered a patriarchy?
How do you feel about gender roles in egalitarian societies?
Do you think that there were negative/positive societal views attached to those gender roles?
Serious questions.


These are good questions, and not just the usual JAQing off nonsense by all the MRAs in the thread. Unfortunately, the thread's about to close and I'm not up for writing an essay's worth of explanations for each question (I have other shiat to do today), but I will say this:

First of all, you're looking at it wrong. Understand that when humans organize themselves socially, the typical trend is for males to seek hierarchy and females to seek consensus. So asking things like how much or how little percentages define the type of rule are malformed questions. These are hierarchical (ie: patriarchal) institutions and they'll always be patriarchal institutions no matter how many or how little men are running things (although an all-female government would be an interesting experiment). It's analogous to replacing all the players on a baseball team and then calling it a different sport. Yes, you've changed the players, but they're still playing baseball. The hierarchical power structure has not changed.

A woman-dominated society would not have hierarchies in it because that's not the way women like to run things. I can't speculate whether a matriarchal system would be any better or worse since its never actually been implemented at any level of development, but the Neolithic Age was largely egalitarian, with more importance placed on communal living and tribe/clan unity, and less importance on family and dynastic lineage (so parentage was not an issue -- it didn't matter who the baby daddy was, since the whole tribe/village raised the child. Maury Pauvich would have been irrelevant in ancient times).

There's actually been an interesting trend that probably only became prominent within the last generation or so: Societies with the most free and empowered women have the most crumbling family infrastructure. Marriage is low, divorce is high, the newer generation seems not too eager to engage in lifetime monogamy. Because things like marriage/divorce are patriarchal institutions (ie: control exclusive sexual access to women), harkening back to the days when women were property of their husbands or fathers and marriage was for politics and power rather than love.

But with the empowerment of women over the last century, what has happened? They've aggressively pushed for social services emphasizing family and children -- essentially, modern versions of the communal unity they afforded when they were neolithic nomads, including child welfare programs, family planning, tax subsidies, counseling.... essentially, the State has replaced the Tribe.

That's not to say that women do not want a husband/men in their lives to help raise the child, but its curious to see the declining status of family values and the rise of state-assisted living ever since women were empowered....because that's the way they had it before. Funny to see, after 10,000 years, the basic social desires and values reassert itself after being silenced for so long, like a gyroscope returning to equilibrium.

And that's enough from me. I'm outty.


I know you said you were leaving the thread so I'm just sorta responding into the wind here.
But, the original questions were presented more to fill in conversational gaps I felt were causing issues in this thread. The last few were the ones I was really looking forward to an answer on....
Oh well.
 
2014-07-10 09:02:10 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Ishkur: typical trend is for males to seek hierarchy and females to seek consensus.

Thank you Deborah Tannen for that highly contested theory.

And to be honest, it's not a "theory" in the scientific sense of the word -it's actually a hypothesis.


Yeah but it sounds really nice.
 
2014-07-10 09:13:10 PM  
I really enjoy when someone won't even own up to what they said earlier in the thread. I mean lets retcon the entire discussion!